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C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville, wife of Richard le Scrope, Knt. (died 1420) and William Cressener, Esq.
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Douglas Richardson
Aug 29, 2013, 4:50:21 PM8/29/13
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 542–543 (sub Scrope) has a good account of Richard le Scrope, Knt., 3rd Lord Scrope of Bolton, who died in 1420. The following information is given regarding his marriage:
"He married, before 31 Dec. 1413, Margaret, 6th daughter of Ralph (NevilL), 1st Earl of Westmorland, by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of Hugh (Stafford), 2nd Earl of Stafford. He died 29 August 1420 .... His widow married, before 5 Nov. 1427 (pardon for £100), William Cressoner, of Sudbury, Suffolk .... She died 3 Edward IV (4 March 1463-3 March 1464), and was buried in the Church of the Austin Friars at Clare, Suffolk." END OF QUOTE.
As we see above, Complete Peerage states that Margaret Neville married (2nd) before 5 Nov. 1427 William Cressoner. The source cited for this date of this marriage is Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. xix, pg. 56.
The marriage date of this couple can be pushed back a bit further in time. A contemporary Common Pleas lawsuit dated Hilary term 1427, indicates that William Cressener and his wife, Margaret, sued Marmaduke de Lumley, clerk, regarding her dower in a free tenement which her former husband, Richard le Scrope, Knt., held in Bolton (in Wensley), Yorkshire [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/664, rot. 76f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no664/aCP40no664fronts/IMG_0076.htm)].
Hilary Term 1427 began 23 January and ended 12 February. Thus it would appear that Margaret Neville and William Cressener were married sometime before 12 Feb. 1426/7.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Richard le Scrope, 3rd Lord Scrope of Bolton, and his wife, Margaret Neville:
Richard & William Bernard, William Crymes
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 542–543 (sub Scrope) has a good account of Richard le Scrope, Knt., 3rd Lord Scrope of Bolton, who died in 1420. The following information is given regarding his marriage:
"He married, before 31 Dec. 1413, Margaret, 6th daughter of Ralph (NevilL), 1st Earl of Westmorland, by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of Hugh (Stafford), 2nd Earl of Stafford. He died 29 August 1420 .... His widow married, before 5 Nov. 1427 (pardon for £100), William Cressoner, of Sudbury, Suffolk .... She died 3 Edward IV (4 March 1463-3 March 1464), and was buried in the Church of the Austin Friars at Clare, Suffolk." END OF QUOTE.
As we see above, Complete Peerage states that Margaret Neville married (2nd) before 5 Nov. 1427 William Cressoner. The source cited for this date of this marriage is Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. xix, pg. 56.
The marriage date of this couple can be pushed back a bit further in time. A contemporary Common Pleas lawsuit dated Hilary term 1427, indicates that William Cressener and his wife, Margaret, sued Marmaduke de Lumley, clerk, regarding her dower in a free tenement which her former husband, Richard le Scrope, Knt., held in Bolton (in Wensley), Yorkshire [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/664, rot. 76f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no664/aCP40no664fronts/IMG_0076.htm)].
Hilary Term 1427 began 23 January and ended 12 February. Thus it would appear that Margaret Neville and William Cressener were married sometime before 12 Feb. 1426/7.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Richard le Scrope, 3rd Lord Scrope of Bolton, and his wife, Margaret Neville:
Richard & William Bernard, William Crymes
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Leo van de Pas
Aug 29, 2013, 7:38:29 PM8/29/13
to Gen-Med
I think most of us agree that Douglas Richardson is the authority on Gateway
ancestors, because of this I am disappointed in his mentioning only three
Gateways as descending from Sir Richard Le Scrope. Of these three, I have no
knowledge of William Crymes.
However, as far as I can see, the following Gateways are also descended from
Sir Richard Le Scrope:
Benjamin Harrison ca.1594 - 1643/1649, Henry Tucker, Thomas Nelson
1636-1712, Philip Nelson 1634-1691 and Sir Marmaduke Beckwith 1687-1780.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Friday, 30 August 2013 6:50 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville, wife of Richard le Scrope, Knt.
(died 1420) and William Cressener, Esq.
Dear Newsgroup ~
<snip>
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir Richard le Scrope, 3rd Lord Scrope of
Bolton, and his wife, Margaret Neville:
Richard & William Bernard, William Crymes
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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Douglas Richardson
Aug 30, 2013, 2:08:38 PM8/30/13
to
Dear Leo ~
Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.
The ancestry of the 17th Century New World immigrant, William Crymes, of Virginia is found in my new book, Royal Ancestry (2013). Credit for the discovery of the immigrant's origins goes to my good friend and colleague, Stephen McLeod, who is an archivist at Mount Vernon.
I didn't include Marmaduke Beckwith in my list of 17th Century immigrants, as he immigrated in the 18th Century.
I don't know anything about Benjamin Harrison or Henry Tucker. I believe people have claimed royal ancestry for Benjamin Harrison, but I don't know how solid the origins and ancestry are for this immigrant. Perhaps you can provide the documentation for these two men.
As for the immigrants, Thomas and Philip Nelson, they do not have a descent from Richard le Scrope and Margaret Neville as you state.
In your database, you correctly show that the Nelson brothers descend from William Conyers, Knt., 1st Lord Conyers (died 1524) [your Person ID I00108518]. However, the Nelson brothers descend from Lord Conyers' 2nd wife, Anne Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, K.B., 3rd Earl of Westmorland, Lord Neville, not his first wife, Mary Scrope. Lord Conyers' first wife, Mary Scrope, did have issue, but allegedly only one daughter. Please see the sources cited in my book, Royal Ancestry (2013), for the documentation of the Conyers line.
Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.
The ancestry of the 17th Century New World immigrant, William Crymes, of Virginia is found in my new book, Royal Ancestry (2013). Credit for the discovery of the immigrant's origins goes to my good friend and colleague, Stephen McLeod, who is an archivist at Mount Vernon.
I didn't include Marmaduke Beckwith in my list of 17th Century immigrants, as he immigrated in the 18th Century.
I don't know anything about Benjamin Harrison or Henry Tucker. I believe people have claimed royal ancestry for Benjamin Harrison, but I don't know how solid the origins and ancestry are for this immigrant. Perhaps you can provide the documentation for these two men.
As for the immigrants, Thomas and Philip Nelson, they do not have a descent from Richard le Scrope and Margaret Neville as you state.
In your database, you correctly show that the Nelson brothers descend from William Conyers, Knt., 1st Lord Conyers (died 1524) [your Person ID I00108518]. However, the Nelson brothers descend from Lord Conyers' 2nd wife, Anne Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, K.B., 3rd Earl of Westmorland, Lord Neville, not his first wife, Mary Scrope. Lord Conyers' first wife, Mary Scrope, did have issue, but allegedly only one daughter. Please see the sources cited in my book, Royal Ancestry (2013), for the documentation of the Conyers line.
Leo van de Pas
Aug 30, 2013, 5:35:28 PM8/30/13
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Douglas,
I have said many times that people should expose their information as this
is a touchstone for its correctness.
As I do not have access to your Royal Ancestry 2013, I cannot double check.
I can only double check the sources I have used.
If I read it correctly, the Complete Peerage Volume XI page 544 does not
mention which wife of William Conyers, 1st Lord Conyers, is the mother of
Christopher.
But Cahiers de Saint Louis page 939 clearly states that Christopher is one
of three children by Mary Scrope, the first wife of William, and that
William and his second wife Anne Neville had no children at all. But I have
a daughter by Anne Neville. Cahiers de Saint Louis for that article shows a
list of sources without showing which source applies to who.
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, shows only Anne Neville as a wife and mother
of three children. And so I can only wonder what did Cahiers de Saint Louis
find? BP 1866 was about a hundred years before the Cahiers were published.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Saturday, 31 August 2013 4:09 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: FW: C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville, wife of Richard le Scrope,
Knt. (died 1420) and William Cressener, Esq.
I have said many times that people should expose their information as this
is a touchstone for its correctness.
As I do not have access to your Royal Ancestry 2013, I cannot double check.
I can only double check the sources I have used.
If I read it correctly, the Complete Peerage Volume XI page 544 does not
mention which wife of William Conyers, 1st Lord Conyers, is the mother of
Christopher.
But Cahiers de Saint Louis page 939 clearly states that Christopher is one
of three children by Mary Scrope, the first wife of William, and that
William and his second wife Anne Neville had no children at all. But I have
a daughter by Anne Neville. Cahiers de Saint Louis for that article shows a
list of sources without showing which source applies to who.
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, shows only Anne Neville as a wife and mother
of three children. And so I can only wonder what did Cahiers de Saint Louis
find? BP 1866 was about a hundred years before the Cahiers were published.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Saturday, 31 August 2013 4:09 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: FW: C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville, wife of Richard le Scrope,
Knt. (died 1420) and William Cressener, Esq.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Aug 30, 2013, 7:36:16 PM8/30/13
to
On Friday, August 30, 2013 11:08:38 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> I didn't include Marmaduke Beckwith in my list of 17th Century immigrants, as he immigrated in the 18th Century.
>
>
>
> I didn't include Marmaduke Beckwith in my list of 17th Century immigrants, as he immigrated in the 18th Century.
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Sir Marmaduke Beckwith is certainly a gateway ancestor as Leo indicates. He apparently immigrated in the (very early) 18th century (certainly before 1709, when he was clerk of Richmond County, VA). And he is covered in both editions of PA, despite being a bit late for its criteria for admission. :-)
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Aug 31, 2013, 12:54:02 AM8/31/13
to
On Friday, August 30, 2013 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Leo van de Pas wrote:
> Dear Douglas,
>
>
>
> I have said many times that people should expose their information as this
>
> is a touchstone for its correctness.
>
> As I do not have access to your Royal Ancestry 2013, I cannot double check.
>
> I can only double check the sources I have used.
>
>
>
> If I read it correctly, the Complete Peerage Volume XI page 544 does not
>
> mention which wife of William Conyers, 1st Lord Conyers, is the mother of
>
> Christopher.
>
>
>
> But Cahiers de Saint Louis page 939 clearly states that Christopher is one
>
> of three children by Mary Scrope, the first wife of William, and that
>
> William and his second wife Anne Neville had no children at all. But I have
>
> a daughter by Anne Neville. Cahiers de Saint Louis for that article shows a
>
> list of sources without showing which source applies to who.
>
>
>
> Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, shows only Anne Neville as a wife and mother
>
> of three children. And so I can only wonder what did Cahiers de Saint Louis
>
> find? BP 1866 was about a hundred years before the Cahiers were published.
>
>
>
> With best wishes
>
> Leo van de Pas
>
> Canberra, Australia
Leo:
> Dear Douglas,
>
>
>
> I have said many times that people should expose their information as this
>
> is a touchstone for its correctness.
>
> As I do not have access to your Royal Ancestry 2013, I cannot double check.
>
> I can only double check the sources I have used.
>
>
>
> If I read it correctly, the Complete Peerage Volume XI page 544 does not
>
> mention which wife of William Conyers, 1st Lord Conyers, is the mother of
>
> Christopher.
>
>
>
> But Cahiers de Saint Louis page 939 clearly states that Christopher is one
>
> of three children by Mary Scrope, the first wife of William, and that
>
> William and his second wife Anne Neville had no children at all. But I have
>
> a daughter by Anne Neville. Cahiers de Saint Louis for that article shows a
>
> list of sources without showing which source applies to who.
>
>
>
> Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, shows only Anne Neville as a wife and mother
>
> of three children. And so I can only wonder what did Cahiers de Saint Louis
>
> find? BP 1866 was about a hundred years before the Cahiers were published.
>
>
>
> With best wishes
>
> Leo van de Pas
>
> Canberra, Australia
You don't need to go to the 2013 Royal Ancestry book regarding the maternity of Christopher Conyers, 2nd Lord Conyers. This was discussed here in a thread of 3 Oct 2001:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2001-10/1002099298
In summary, the Faris edition of PA wrongly assigned Christopher to the 1st wife Mary Scrope (although most of its sources said otherwise). This was corrected in the 1st Richardson edition of PA - with sources cited.
Leo van de Pas
Aug 31, 2013, 3:18:19 AM8/31/13
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear John,
If I read the message from Douglas Richardson correctly, Mary Scrope was the
second wife. However, if William Conyers married first Anne Neville,
according to Cahiers de Saint Louis page 1013, Anne Neville married secondly
about 29 April 1525 Anthony Saltmarsh. To me it seems that Mary Scrope was
the first wife, and Anne the second, even if Anne is the mother of
Christopher. What do you think?
Leo
Leo:
You don't need to go to the 2013 Royal Ancestry book regarding the maternity
of Christopher Conyers, 2nd Lord Conyers. This was discussed here in a
thread of 3 Oct 2001:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2001-10/100209929
8
In summary, the Faris edition of PA wrongly assigned Christopher to the 1st
wife Mary Scrope (although most of its sources said otherwise). This was
corrected in the 1st Richardson edition of PA - with sources cited.
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