Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)

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Ronald Di Iorio

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Feb 3, 2011, 10:07:57 PM2/3/11
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Have the parents of Agn�s de Montb�liard , aka Agn�s de Montfaucon, mother of Jean de Brienne, King of Jerusalem, been correctly identified? Search of archive discussions and usual web sites give at least three possibilities, but no convincing proofs. Thanks in advance.

Ron


Peter Stewart

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Feb 4, 2011, 4:46:31 AM2/4/11
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"Ronald Di Iorio" <medge...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.5.129679888...@rootsweb.com...
> Have the parents of Agnès de Montbéliard , aka Agnès de

> Montfaucon, mother of Jean de Brienne, King of Jerusalem,
> been correctly identified? Search of archive discussions
> and usual web sites give at least three possibilities, but no
> convincing proofs. Thanks in advance.

Apart from her name, the earliest source for her background is a
continuation of the chronicle of William of Tyre, written in the late-13th
century, stating that Jean's brother Gautier was the son of Erard de Brienne
and a daughter of Amedeus of Montbéliard (son of Richard II of Montfaucon),
and naming his maternal uncles Richard and Gautier ("Ice fu le conte Gautier
de Briene, qui fu fiz dou conte Erart de Briene et de la fille dou conte Ami
de Monbliart. Andre de Briene le bon chevalier, qui fu ocis au siege d'Acre,
estoit son oncle; et Rechart le conte de Monbliart et Gautier son frere
furent ses oncles de par sa mere. Guillaume de Briene de Panci et Johan de
Briene qui fu de Jerusalem rois et puis fu enpereor de Costantinople, si
come vos orrez ca avant, furent ses freres.")

It used to be thought that this must be inaccurate, because Jean was
supposed to have been born by ca 1150, making him at least 20 years older
than his correct age established by Ludwig Boehm in *Johann von Brienne*
(1938). Consequently most 19th century historians had made his mother a
sister instead of daughter to Amedeus (who was born ca 1130). This mistake
was elaborated with wrong identifications of the mother's paternal uncles as
her brothers, and apparently some current versions remain confused.

Peter Stewart

Ronald Di Iorio

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Feb 4, 2011, 10:00:01 AM2/4/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Peter Stewart
Thank you, Peter. That clears up the question of her father having been Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered individuals said to be her father.

There is another identification that intrigues me. It is at the site:

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Brienne.pdf

Here it is claimed that Agnès was one Agnès de Nevers-Montbéliard, Dame
de Pacy-sur-Armançon (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume III
de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d’Ida de Carinthie.

I assume that the "89" in parenthesis is the source citation but I can't find it on the site--in fact, I can't find the chart that would show this Agnès as a family member, rather than a wife, despite the fact that her name is in red and she should be found elsewhere. Although names are in red, they are not links, and I have failed to locate a search mechanism that would let me search the entire site. And there are no lineages titled Montbéliard, Montfaucon, Pacy-sur-Armançon, Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre, or Tonnerre, so I don't know where her primary citation is buried amongst the lineages to see if the attribution is sourced there.

Anyone ever hear of this identification or where it came from?

Thanks again.

Ron

--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Peter Stewart <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
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>


David Topping

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Feb 4, 2011, 12:11:20 PM2/4/11
to
On Feb 4, 3:00 pm, Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Peter.  That clears up the question of her father having been Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered individuals said to be her father.
>
> There is another identification that intrigues me.  It is at the site:
>
> http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Brienne.pdf
>
> Here it is claimed that Agnès was one Agnès de Nevers-Montbéliard, Dame
> de Pacy-sur-Armançon (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume III
> de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d’Ida de Carinthie.
>
> I assume that the "89" in parenthesis is the source citation but I can't find it on the site--in fact, I can't find the chart that would show this Agnès as a family member, rather than a wife, despite the fact that her name is in red and she should be found elsewhere.   Although names are in red, they are not links, and I have failed to locate a search mechanism that would let me search the entire site.  And there are no lineages titled Montbéliard, Montfaucon, Pacy-sur-Armançon, Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre, or Tonnerre, so I don't know where her primary citation is buried amongst the lineages to see if the attribution is sourced there.  
>
> Anyone ever hear of this identification or where it came from?
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Ron  
>
> --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Peter Stewart <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Peter Stewart <pss...@bigpond.com>
> > Subject: Re: Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)
> > To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
> > Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 4:46 AM
>
> > "Ronald Di Iorio" <medgen2...@yahoo.com>
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> > subject and the body of the message
>
>

89 is the Departement number - Yonne

J.L.Fernandez Blanco

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Feb 4, 2011, 1:23:13 PM2/4/11
to
On Feb 4, 12:00 pm, Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Peter.  That clears up the question of her father having been Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered individuals said to be her father.
>
> There is another identification that intrigues me.  It is at the site:
>
> http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Brienne.pdf
>
> Here it is claimed that Agnès was one Agnès de Nevers-Montbéliard, Dame
> de Pacy-sur-Armançon (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume III
> de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d’Ida de Carinthie.
>
(snip)

This identification comes from a study done by Edouard de Saint-Phalle
(see http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=fr;i=475650)
"Suivant une récente étude d'Edouard de Saint Phalle (Bullettin Sté
Académique de l'Aube 2009 t CXXXIII) Agnès serait fille de Guillaume
de Nevers comte de Nevers x Ida von Sponheim dite Ida de Carinthie.
Cette étude très documentée donne une bonne réponse aux interrogations
récentes posées sur l'identité d'Agnés (les auteurs classiques devant
être mis "hors course" pour être remplacés par ceux plus crédibles"
I haven't been able to find this study.
OTOH, the sources for the "Racines" site are "general" and you will
find them in the first page of each family. The information given is
not reliable and you will find that many times is contradictory (i.e.,
the informatin given in one table differs from the information given
in another in a different page). Of course, there is no individual
source for any filiation and some of them are absolutely ludicrous.
Regards,
JL

Peter Stewart

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Feb 4, 2011, 5:08:52 PM2/4/11
to

"Ronald Di Iorio" <medge...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1.129683206...@rootsweb.com...

> Thank you, Peter. That clears up the question of her father having been
> Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered individuals said
> to be her father.
>
> There is another identification that intrigues me. It is at the site:
>
> http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Brienne.pdf
>
> Here it is claimed that Agnès was one Agnès de Nevers-Montbéliard, Dame
> de Pacy-sur-Armançon (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume III
> de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d’Ida de Carinthie.
>
> I assume that the "89" in parenthesis is the source citation but I can't
> find it on the site--in fact, I can't find the chart that would show this
> Agnès as a family member, rather than a wife, despite the fact that her
> name is in red and she should be found elsewhere. Although names are in
> red, they are not links, and I have failed to locate a search mechanism
> that would let me search the entire site. And there are no lineages
> titled Montbéliard, Montfaucon, Pacy-sur-Armançon, Vienne, Nevers,
> Auxerre, or Tonnerre, so I don't know where her primary citation is buried
> amongst the lineages to see if the attribution is sourced there.
>
> Anyone ever hear of this identification or where it came from?

I haven't seen the 2009 article by Edouard de Saint-Phalle that was cited by
José Luis from the Roglo website.

However, this would need to be extremely well-documented on the point at
issue to be convincing - if Agnes had been a daughter of Guillaume III of
Nevers and Ida of Carinthia, as claimed in contradiction to the continuator
of William of Tyre, then Jean de Brienne and his brothers would have been
first cousins to Louis VII's widow Adela of Blois, the mother of Philippe
Auguste, and first cousins once removed to Henri of Champagne, king of
Jerusalem; Jean's widowed sister-in-law Eustachie de Courtenay would have
been married later to her first cousin once removed by marriage, Guillaume I
of Sancerre; and Jean's nephew Gautier IV of Brienne would have married his
own 3rd cousin once removed, Marie de Lusignan. Such close relationships to
the French royal family and to a former king of Jerusalem, as well as the
affinity/consanguinity of these marriages, are most unlikely to have escaped
the notice of all chroniclers and historians before 2009.

By the way, I'm inclined to think that the correction in Jean de Brienne's
age may not have gone far enough. Boehm placed his birth ca 1170 on the
grounds that he was the fourth son of a marriage that took place in or
before 1165. But a charter of his father dated in 1184 shows that the eldest
son, Gautier, was still receiving lessons from a tutor ("Ego Airardus, Dei
miseratione Brenensis comes ... Gilo, pedagogus Galteri, filii mei"), while
another charter dated in 1177 lists the three older sons, who must all have
been children, but omits Jean ("Ego Airardus, Dei patientia Brenensis comes
... laudantibus et assentientibus uxore, et liberis meis Galtero, Guillelmo,
Andrea"). It's possible that Jean was not yet born at the time.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

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Feb 4, 2011, 6:39:18 PM2/4/11
to

"J.L.Fernandez Blanco" <fernandez...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffac38e0-278f-40fc...@8g2000prt.googlegroups.com...

> On Feb 4, 12:00 pm, Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thank you, Peter. That clears up the question of her father having
> > been Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered
> > individuals said to be her father.
> >
> > There is another identification that intrigues me. It is at the site:
> >
> > http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Brienne.pdf
> >
> > Here it is claimed that Agn�s was one Agn�s de Nevers-Montb�liard,
> > Dame de Pacy-sur-Arman�on (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume
> > III de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d�Ida de Carinthie.

> >
> (snip)
>
> This identification comes from a study done by Edouard de Saint-Phalle
> (see http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=fr;i=475650)
> "Suivant une r�cente �tude d'Edouard de Saint Phalle (Bullettin St�
> Acad�mique de l'Aube 2009 t CXXXIII) Agn�s serait fille de Guillaume

> de Nevers comte de Nevers x Ida von Sponheim dite Ida de Carinthie.
> Cette �tude tr�s document�e donne une bonne r�ponse aux interrogations
> r�centes pos�es sur l'identit� d'Agn�s (les auteurs classiques devant
> �tre mis "hors course" pour �tre remplac�s par ceux plus cr�dibles"

> I haven't been able to find this study.
> OTOH, the sources for the "Racines" site are "general" and you will
> find them in the first page of each family. The information given is
> not reliable and you will find that many times is contradictory (i.e.,
> the informatin given in one table differs from the information given
> in another in a different page). Of course, there is no individual
> source for any filiation and some of them are absolutely ludicrous.

Quite so - apart from other mistakes, the second table shows Jean de
Brienne's grandfather Gautier II with four wives, a farrago that has
proliferated since Schwennicke gave this in 1989 (ES neue Folge vol 3 table
681).

There is a consistent record of one wife, named Adelais (a daughter of
Andr�, seigneur of Baudement, seneschal of Champagne & his wife Agnes) who
was the mother of his children and survived as his widow as shown by her
son's charter dated in 1166 ("ego Erardus, Brenensium comes ... Hoc totum
factum est in presentia matris mee"). There are two charters, dated in 1135
and 1138 respectively, in which Gautier's wife is either named or implied to
be called Hubelina - but in one case this appears to be an alternative name
for Adelais since she is still connected to the Baudement family, and in the
other is perhaps due to confusion with Hubelina of Chacenay, the
mother-in-law of her daughter Agnes.

Schwennicke had Gautier marrying as his third wife this same Hubelina of
Chacenay in the year she was widowed, 1137, but we know that Adelais the
mother of his children was still his wife in 1146 from a charter of her
son-in-law, Hubelina's son, Jacques of Chacenay ("ego Jacobus, dominus de
Cachennaio, assensu Agnetis, uxoris mee, atque ammonitu Galteri, Brenensium
comitis, et matris uxoris ejus, domine Agnetis de Baldimento, et domine mee
A., Brenensium comitisse") and from a privilege of Pope Eugene III on 1
March 1152 ("nobilis mulier Azealis, comitissa de Brena, cum viri et
filiorum suorum").

Peter Stewart

Ronald Di Iorio

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Feb 4, 2011, 7:51:34 PM2/4/11
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com

Thanks to all who responded on this subject.

As a point of information, I realize that the "Racines" site is of very questionable accuracy in many areas, but on occasion, as in the instant case, I see something that makes me curious, even if I suspect that it is probably wrong.

Ron
>
>
>      
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com

Peter Stewart

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Feb 4, 2011, 11:05:03 PM2/4/11
to
"Ronald Di Iorio" <medge...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.10.129686709...@rootsweb.com...

>
> Thanks to all who responded on this subject.
>
> As a point of information, I realize that the "Racines" site
> is of very questionable accuracy in many areas, but on
> occasion, as in the instant case, I see something that makes
> me curious, even if I suspect that it is probably wrong.

That's probably the reason this newsgroup exists, and certainly the best use
for it - bearing in mind, of course, that the accuracy of everything posted
here is open to question as well.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Feb 5, 2011, 5:41:38 PM2/5/11
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"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:iii2ne$adt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

It was pointed out to me off-list that the Medieval Lands website repeats
the four marriages given in ES and purports to give some evidence for this
scheme.

It is clear that Cawley is trying too hard to find, or in this case to
deduce, proof for unwarranted assertions - and has misread Schwennicke in
the process.

In Cawley's opinion, Gautier married:

1. an unnamed daughter of daughter of Andr� de Baudmont & his wife Agnes
2. (repudiated before 1147) as her second husband, Humbleline (died 1166 or
after), of unknown family, widow of Anseric II de Chacenay; "According to
Europ�ische Stammtafeln[335], she was --- de Soissons, daughter of [Jean
Comte de Soissons & his wife Aveline de Pierrefonds], but the primary source
on which this is based has not yet been identified." However, Schwennicke
actually made the unnamed daughter of Jean into the second wife and
Humbeline widow of Anseric de Chacenay into the third.
3. (before 1147) Adelais, "daughter of --- & his wife Agnes".

Cawley then makes #1 the mother of Gautier's eldest child, Agnes the wife of
#2 Humbeline's son Jacques de Chacenay, and #2 herself the mother of his
nine other offspring. Schwennicke on the other hand made Agnes the daughter
of either N de Baudement or N de Soissons, and gave the latter as mother of
all the others, not Humbeline.

The evidence proposed for this by Cawley has been interpreted with no more
care than he has applied in misreading Schwennicke.

Nothing is offered for the first wife ("The primary source which confirms
her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified"). As I posted
before, a charter a Jacques de Chacenay dated 1146 identified Agnes de
Baudement as mother-in-law of Gautier ("ammonitu Galteri, Brenensium
comitis, et matris uxoris ejus, domine Agnetis de Baldimento") while giving
A. as the initial of his wife's name ("et domine mee A., Brenensium
comitisse"). We know that she was mother of at least two of his sons from a
charter of her father Andr� de Baudmont with the assent of his own son and
two (presumed) sons-in-law along with their wives and some of their sons,
dated 1133 ("Guido, filius domni Andree, iterum laudavit atque uxor ejus;
comes Brinie laudavit et uxor ejus et filii eorum Guido et Eustachius; Guido
de Dampetra iterum laudavit, et uxor ejus nomine Elvidis, et filii Ansericus
et Guillelmus"). We know that Gautier's wife, the mother of his sons living
in 1152 (including Eustachius) was named Adelais from Gautier's own charter
written ca 1150 ("Ego Walterus, comes Brenensis ... assensu et laude
Adelaidis uxoris mee") and Pope Eugene III's confirmation written in 1152
("Confirmamus ... ecclesiam, quam in Riparia Materne nobilis mulier Azealis,
comitissa de Brena, cum viri et filiorum suorum necnon bone memorie Gosleni,
quondam Suessionenis episcopi, cujus feodum erat, assensu, concessit,
scriptique sui assertione firmavit.") NB This holding by Adelais de
Baudemont from the bishop of Soissons appears to be the basis for making a
fictitious daughter of the count of Soissons into another wife of Gautier.

As to the invented marriage of Gautier to the widow of Anseric de Chacenay,
Cawley states: "Her two marriages are deduced from the charter dated 1174
which records a dispute involving her son (by her second marriage) 'comitem
de Brenna Herardum' which was witnessed by her grandson by her first
marriage 'Erardus nepos eius de Chacenaio'". This is misleading at best,
since the charter does NOT in any way imply that Erard, count of Brienne was
her son - this has been deduced by Cawley from his misreading of Schwennicke
rather than from the document itself. Furthermore "nepos eius" here CANNOT
mean "her grandson" (though he was) since she is not mentioned in the
charter at all - it plainly means "his nephew", as he is named immediately
after his maternal uncle Andr� de Brienne, who was named after his own
maternal grandfather Andr� de Baudement ("Hujus rei testes sunt ... Andreas
frater comitis; Erardus nepos ejus de Chacenaio").

Cawley then compounds his errors by repeating the absurdity that Gautier had
a fourth wife whose name Adelais and mother's name Agnes were coincidentally
the same as those of Adelais de Baudement, which as above is based on a
charter specifying that the mother-in-law in question WAS Agnes de
Baudement, whose daughter had at least two sons by Gautier de Brienne in
1133.

Once again, reader beware... or better still avoid the hopeless slough of
Medieval Lands entirely.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Feb 5, 2011, 5:52:33 PM2/5/11
to

"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:iikjne$u5v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

> Furthermore "nepos eius" here CANNOT mean "her grandson" (though he
> was) since she is not mentioned in the charter at all - it plainly means
> "his
> nephew", as he is named immediately after his maternal uncle Andr� de
> Brienne, who was named after his own maternal grandfather Andr� de
> Baudement ("Hujus rei testes sunt ... Andreas frater comitis; Erardus
> nepos ejus de Chacenaio").

This is poorly phrased - I meant that Andr� de Brienne was named after his
maternal grandfather _in life_, not in the charter.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Feb 6, 2011, 12:02:17 AM2/6/11
to
I have been asked off-list to clarify two points:

"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:iikjne$u5v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...


>> There are two charters, dated in 1135 and 1138 respectively, in which
>> Gautier's wife is either named or implied to be called Hubelina - but in
>> one case this appears to be an alternative name for Adelais since she is
>> still connected to the Baudement family, and in the other is perhaps
>> due to confusion with Hubelina of Chacenay, the mother-in-law of her
>> daughter Agnes.

The first of these charters naming Gautier's wife Hubelina is an act of
Thibaut IV, count of Blois for Prémontré, dated 1135 noting confirmation in
1145, assenting to a gift from the widow of Gui de Baudement for the soul of
her late husband and for love of his brother Thibaut, a monk at the abbey,
with the consent of their father André, their mother Agnes, their brother
Waleran abbot of Ourscamp and their sisters Helwide and Hubelina and
husbands Gautier of Brienne and Gui of Dampierre ("ob remedium anime viri
sui et ob amorem Theobaldi, fratris prefati Widonis, ibidem conversi,
annuente patre eorum Andrea de Baldemento et matre eorum Agnete et ipsorum
fratre Waleranno, Uriscampi abbate, et sororibus eorum Helwide et Hubelina
et earum maritis, Waltero comite de Briena et Widone de Dampiere ... Actum
est hoc donum anno Incarnationis dominice M C XXX V, et confirmatum anno
Incarnationis M C XL V").

We know that Gui of Dampierre was married to Helwide, so that Hubelina
clearly refers here to Gautier's wife. But this is obviously a cartulary
copy made after 1145, and "Hubelina" could be a mistake since we know from a
charter of her son-in-law, Hubelina de Chacenay's son, dated 1146 (quoted
before) that A was the initial letter of Gautier's wife's name at that time
and she was a daughter of Agnes de Baudement.

However, Adelais might have also been known as Hubelina: the second
occurrence under this name is in a charter of Geoffrey, bishop of
Châlons-sur-Marne, dated 1138 ("dilectum nostrum Galterum Brennensem
comitem, assensu, voluntate et petitione uxoris sue Hubeline"). This also
survives only in a later cartulary copy, but two independent instances
probably point to a real alternative name rather than coincidental errors.

Hu(m)belina, a hyochoristic form of Humberge, was notably the name of a
local abbess whose sainthood was recognised from February 1135 when she died
in the arms of her brother, St Bernard of Clairvaux. It is possible that
Adelais adopted the name around that time in her honour. Hubelina de
Chacenay may have been related to St Bernard, but she cannot have been his
sister the abbess as sometimes stated since she lived until 1142 or later.
She can hardly have been the mother of nine children to Gautier of Brienne,
as asserted by Cawley, or for that matter to anyone else after the death of
Anseric de Chacenay in 1137 since she was already the mother of his son
Jacques by February 1119 (or 1120 new style) as shown by a charter of
Molesmes ("Ego Ansericus de Cacennaco ... mee uxoris Hubeline ... uxori mee
unicoque filio meo Jacobo") and another of Henri, bishop of Troyes dated
1146, when she was apparently deceased ("Hubelina, mater Jacobi de
Chacennaio").

> We know that Gautier's wife, the mother of his sons living in 1152
> (including Eustachius) was named Adelais from Gautier's own charter
> written ca 1150 ("Ego Walterus, comes Brenensis ... assensu et laude
> Adelaidis uxoris mee") and Pope Eugene III's confirmation written in 1152
> ("Confirmamus ... ecclesiam, quam in Riparia Materne nobilis mulier
> Azealis, comitissa de Brena, cum viri et filiorum suorum necnon bone
> memorie Gosleni, quondam Suessionenis episcopi, cujus feodum erat,
> assensu, concessit, scriptique sui assertione firmavit.") NB This holding
> by Adelais de Baudemont from the bishop of Soissons appears to be the
> basis for making a fictitious daughter of the count of Soissons into
> another wife of Gautier.

The basis for this is a bit more definite than suggested above, though it
actually precludes her (or anyone else living in 1141) from being a daughter
of Jean, count of Soissons. In that year Jean's son and heir Renaud III,
suffering from leprosy and intending to resign the countship, asked the
bishop of Soissons as overlord to determine who had the best right to
succeed him. Four claimants came to the hearing - Ives, seigneur of Nesle,
Gautier of Brienne, Gui of Dampierre and Geoffrey, seigneur of Donzy. A
fifth who was summoned, Mathieu of Montmorency, did not come. We don't know
for certain how any of these men except the first were related by blood or
marriage to Renaud, but we can be sure it was more distantly than through
putative sisters since he did not know their comparative rights for himself
and the successful candidate, Ives of Nesle, was a grandson of Renaud's
paternal aunt.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Feb 6, 2011, 6:51:48 PM2/6/11
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"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:iii2ne$adt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

>
> "J.L.Fernandez Blanco" <fernandez...@gmail.com> wrote in message

<snip>

>> OTOH, the sources for the "Racines" site are "general" and you will
>> find them in the first page of each family. The information given is
>> not reliable and you will find that many times is contradictory (i.e.,
>> the informatin given in one table differs from the information given
>> in another in a different page). Of course, there is no individual
>> source for any filiation and some of them are absolutely ludicrous.
>
> Quite so - apart from other mistakes, the second table shows Jean de
> Brienne's grandfather Gautier II with four wives, a farrago that has
> proliferated since Schwennicke gave this in 1989 (ES neue Folge vol 3
> table 681).

Unfortunately it seems that this problem will not go away any time soon - I
have been asked off-list to specify who were the "wives" of Gautier of
Brienne, with sources, so I must have failed to make clear that on the
evidence available he had only _one_ wife. She was Adelais (also, perhaps
briefly, known as Hubelina), daughter of André de Baudement, seneschal of
Champagne, and his wife Agnes.

Maybe it will be helpful to set out the evidence for this in chronological
order:

In 1133 a donation by André de Baudement (with the consent of his overlord
Thibaut IV, count of Blois) shows that his daughter was married to Gautier
de Brienne had two sons - "apud Baldimentum de feodo domni Andree Senescalci
... ipse Andreas, pro anima sua et pro animabus omnium antecessorum suorum
et maxime pro filio suo nomine Willelmo, qui miles Dei Templique Salomonis
tunc fuerat, eisdem militibus dedit quicquid in dominio apud Baldimentum
habebat in servis et in ancillis ... Hoc donum laudavit Theobaldus comes, a
quo totum movebat. Guido, filius domni Andree, iterum laudavit atque uxor

ejus; comes Brinie laudavit et uxor ejus et filii eorum Guido et Eustachius;
Guido de Dampetra iterum laudavit, et uxor ejus nomine Elvidis, et filii

Ansericus et Guillelmus".

In 1135 a charter of Count Thibaut IV gave the name Hubelina to this
daughter of André de Baudement married to Gautier de Brienne - "Ego
Theobaldus Blesentium comes notum fieri volo tam futuris quam presentibus
quod Aelaidis, uxor Widonis domini de Brana, post mortem viri sui ipsius,
videlicet Widonis, omnes census quos juste habebat infra ambitum Brane
castri et Branelle ville dedit Premonstrate ecclesie possidendos, ob

remedium anime viri sui et ob amorem Theobaldi, fratris prefati Widonis,
ibidem conversi, annuente patre eorum Andrea de Baldemento et matre eorum
Agnete et ipsorum fratre Waleranno, Uriscampi abbate, et sororibus eorum
Helwide et Hubelina et earum maritis, Waltero comite de Briena et Widone de

Dampiere". (NB Hubelina de Chacenay cannot be the same woman as she was
still married to Anseric at this time - he died in 1137).

In 1138 Geoffrey, bishop of Châlons-sur-Marne, also called Gautier's wife
Hubelina - "dilectum nostrum Galterum Brennensem comitem, assensu, voluntate
et petitione uxoris sue Hubeline".

In 1146 Gautier's son-in-law Jacques de Chacenay (son of Hubelina and
Anseric) identified Agnes de Baudement as the mother of Gautier's wife to
whom he gave the initial A - "ego Jacobus, dominus de Cachennaio, assensu

Agnetis, uxoris mee, atque ammonitu Galteri, Brenensium comitis, et matris
uxoris ejus, domine Agnetis de Baldimento, et domine mee A., Brenensium

comitisse".

In 1147 and again ca 1150 Gautier called his own wife Adelais - "ego G.,
comes Brene ... concedo laude et concessu uxoris Adelisis"; "Ego Walterus,
comes Brenensis ... assensu et laude Adelaïdis uxoris mee".

In 1152 Pope Eugene III confirmed a donation by Adelais, countess of
Brienne, with the consent of her husband and sons - "Confirmamus etiam tibi
et ecclesie tue per te molendinum, quod apud Jarconam, et ecclesiam, quam in

Riparia Materne nobilis mulier Azealis, comitissa de Brena, cum viri et
filiorum suorum necnon bone memorie Gosleni, quondam Suessionenis episcopi,
cujus feodum erat, assensu, concessit, scriptique sui assertione firmavit".

In 1166 the mother of Gautier's son and heir Erard was still living - "ego
Erardus, Brenensium comes ... Hoc totum factum est in presentia matris mee".
Gautier's son Eustache who occurred in 1133 was a younger brother of Erard
and also still living in 1166 - "Hujus rei testes sunt: Airaldus [sic],
Brenensium comes, ex cujus feodo venit; Eustacius et Andreas fratres ejus".
The other brother here, André, named after his maternal grandfather, occurs
in 1174 as uncle to Jacques de Chacenay's son Erard - "Andreas, frater
comitis [de Brenna]; Erardus, nepos ejus de Chacenaio".

There is no room in this chronological series for Gautier to have married
anyone else but Adelais (aka Hubelina) the daughter of André de Baudement
and Agnes.

Hubelina de Chacenay was still married to her husband Anseric in 1135 when
Gautier occurs with a wife of the same name. Even if this dating is disputed
on the ground that the charter was copied in or after 1145 when it was
confirmed, the charter of Jacques de Chacenay dated 1146 makes it clear that
Gautier's wife then was still "A" and her mother was Agnes de Baudement.

In any case, Jacques himself was described as not yet old enough to talk
when his father fell dangerously ill in October before a charter dated
February 1119 (that is, 1120 new style) - "unicoque filio meo Jacobo, qui
necdum etas loquelam tribuit". Anseric had a daughter who was almost
certainly older than Jacques, since she had four children of her own
consenting to charters by 1139. There is no evidence that Anseric had any
other wife besides Hubelina, who occurs as the mother of Jacques born some
while before October 1119. She cannot have beeen married to Gautier de
Brienne in 1135 when Anseric was still living, and she cannot have been
mother to nine children born after Anseric's death in 1137.

The purported marriage of Gautier to a daughter of Jean, count of Soissons,
was dealt with in a post yesterday - Jean can have had no daughter living in
1141 and no daughter deceased by then with children of her own, since the
heir to his son Renaud the Leper was determined at that time to be a first
cousin once removed.

The last marriage of Gautier given by Schwennicke followed by Cawley is to a
second woman named Adelais with a mother named Agnes - but this is a fiction
to explain away an apparent coincidence since, as seen above, Adelais the
daughter of André de Baudement and Agnes was still living as Gautier's widow
in 1166.

Peter Stewart

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