The naming of Robert Guiscard
Rob
fascinating, powerful, crafty character.
The name of Guiscard is based on the Latin Viscardus, meaning "wise
arse" or "resourceful". He had certainly earned that name by his sheer
reputation, boldness and cunningness.
If he was the son of Tancred de Hauteville, should he be addressed as
Robert de Hauteville, later known as Robert Guiscard?
Or...he should be called as Robert le Guiscard de Hauteville?
wjhonson
How about Robert "Guiscard", Duke of Apulia
Rob
Not sure about that. It's a name-title option, though.
I would prefer Robert le Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:35:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
res...@gmail.com writes:
I would prefer Robert le Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia.>>
-------------------------------
You are by this, not making it clear that Guiscard was a nickname.
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Christopher Ingham
You are unclear as to what you mean by "should he be addressed
as" and "should he be called as." He is normally called simply Robert
Guiscard in historical texts. For the purposes of genealogical
nomenclature, something like Robert de Hauteville
"le Guiscard", Duke of Apulia (in addition to any number of
lesser titles) would suffice.
Christopher Ingham
Hovite
> I enjoyed reading up the history of Robert Guiscard. Such a
> fascinating, powerful, crafty character.
>
> The name of Guiscard is based on the Latin Viscardus, meaning "wise
> arse" or "resourceful".
Having checked three dictionaries, I have not found Viscardus.
Old French Guiscard, Guischard, or Guiscart, and its English forms
Wishart, Wiskar, Wisker, Wesker, Whiscard, Whisker, Wysard, or Vizard,
are from a hybrid compound Old Norse vizkr (wise) and French hard
(strong), according to Reaney (A Dictionary of British Surnames).
Peter G R Howarth
of Guiscard is sufficient to distinguish him from all other mediaeval
Roberts. The index of _The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History_, for
example, refers to him simply as Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia.
Peter G R Howarth
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13:25
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 5/28/2008 6:44:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Why bother with a surname at all? Robert didn't use one and the sobriquet
of Guiscard is sufficient to distinguish him from all other mediaeval
Roberts. The index of _The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History_, for
example, refers to him simply as Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia. >>
---------------------
Genealogy programs have a field for surname. This is the field that the
main index uses.
KPawel
My guess would be thatm if the Normans were as prevelent as
their neighbors in used nicknames as part of a person's full-names,
then Robert Guiscard may have earned his "full-mane" by the time of
his death. But, at birth?
he was, probably, either, Robert Tancredssen or Robert fitz Tancred!
jonme...@gmail.com
field so that Robert and his father Tancred can be identified as part
of what we now consider the "family", ie the patrilineal line, "de
Hauteville" is probably best, as historians (for example, Runciman)
refer to the ruling family of Apulia, Sicily and Antioch as the "house
of Hauteville". One must remember, though, that "Hauteville" is a
place name and that Tancred's father, whoever he was, would have been
referred to by his contemporaries as X, son of Y, X the Z (to
distinguish him from other Xes in the area) or X from W (where W may
well not have been Hauteville, but another place altogether).
Peter G R Howarth
>In a message dated 5/28/2008 6:44:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>Why bother with a surname at all? Robert didn't use one and the
>sobriquet
>of Guiscard is sufficient to distinguish him from all other mediaeval
>Roberts. The index of _The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History_, for
>example, refers to him simply as Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia. >>
>
>
>---------------------
>Genealogy programs have a field for surname. This is the field that the
>main index uses.
In that case, just as William the Conqueror's wife is often called Matilda
of Flanders, one could call him Robert Guiscard of Apulia, with Apulia in
the surname slot (or di Puglia if you want the equivalent of de Hauteville).
Or make Guiscard the surname since it is doing the same job as a modern
surname, i.e. distinguishing him from other Roberts. Making up surnames for
those that didn't have one sounds too much like hard work for me! Do you
find they do a genuinely useful job?
PGRH
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WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:56:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Robert Guiscard of Apulia>>
----------------
Or Robert "Guiscard" de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia
If you call him "of Apulia" without specifying that he was Duke it makes it
sound like he was born there.
Will Johnson
CE Wood
suffix, which shows up in the Index, and thus, if all you entered was
Given Name: Robert Guiscard
Last Name: "blank"
Title Suffix: Duke of Apulia
You would find, by clicking on Given Name in the Index page, "Robert
Guiscard, Duke of Apulia"
In Legacy Deluxe, you could enter all the following and more:
Given: Robert Guiscard de
Surname: Hauteville
Title Suffix: Duke of Apulia
And:
Given Robert
Surname: Guiscard
Title Suffix: Duke of Apulia
And
Given: Robert Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of
Surname: Apulia
Title Suffix: blank
When you are in the Index, you can click Given, and all your database
is immediately sorted by given name, so you will find:
Robert, Guiscard, Buke of Apulia
Robert Guiscard de, Hauteville, Duke of Apulia
Robert Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia
By clicking Surname, you will find:
Guiscard, Robert, Duke of Apulia
Hauteville, Robert Guiscard, Duke of Apulia
Apulia, Robert Guiscard de Hauteville Duke of
You can have as many alternate names as you like, and, depending
whether and how you list surnames, and whether you click on Surname or
Given, the Index is sorted in that order. And if you have included
the Title Suffix, that will always show up in the Index, whether you
are sorting by Given or Surname, which helps with identifying a
particular person.
In other words, in this program you can name people however you wish
and be able to find them instantly.
This has been one of the greatest boons to me because of the
incredible variation, especially in ancient and medieval times, in how
people refer to persons. As long as I have entered a particular
variation as an alternate name, I can always find to whomever it is a
poster (or other) is referring.
CE Wood
On May 26, 7:21 pm, Rob <resh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter G R Howarth
>In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:56:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>Robert Guiscard of Apulia>>
>
>
>----------------
>
>Or Robert "Guiscard" de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia
>
>If you call him "of Apulia" without specifying that he was Duke it makes it
>sound like he was born there.
>Will Johnson
That is the advantage of using the Italian name: di Puglia = [ruler] of
Apulia, da Puglia = from Apulia. I believe the Scots also have a method of
distinguishing between those who owned a place and those who merely were
born/lived there.
In French, of course, there is no difference: de Hauteville can mean either
owner or native or inhabitant. So 'of Apulia' would not be any different.
And is there any other type of surname you can give to the father of Matilda
of Flanders?
I can endorse the usefulness of Legacy Deluxe generally and its indexes in
particular. One can enter Baldwin V the Debonaire under Given Name (with
Boudewijn van Rijssel, Baudouin le Débonnaire and Baudouin de Lille as
separate alternatives), leave Surname blank, and under Title Suffix enter
Count of Flanders (or graaf van Vlaanderen / comte de Flandres for the
alternative names), and then have all the names appear in order in the
index, with correct title attached, and all linking to the same data.
There are presumably other programs that will do the same sort of thing.
Peter G R Howarth
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19:53
Rob
> In a message dated 5/27/2008 8:35:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>
>
> I would prefer Robert le Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia.>>
>
> -------------------------------
> You are by this, not making it clear that Guiscard was a nickname.
>
> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
I know. I'm throwing out an option or two on what to call him
officially in name and title. Hello? Ideas.
Drop the "le", though. It's French for "the". Sheesh.
Rob
wrote:
Historic and genealogical nomenclatures of a ancestral person, even a
historic figure, should goes hand to hand for reference and index
purposes. It is much easier for others to search out names and titles
in one search result rather than in separate search results in either
historic or genealogical form. When I Googled "Viscardus", the search
result came up with Robert Guiscard.