warning about low-quality genealogies: case of Cantacuzino

[Sjostrom]

Having realized that there do exist simpletons who do not listen to caution
and are spreading unfounded pedigrees (without any cautionary notes)
specifically about the alleged imperial patriline of the Kantakouzenoi of
Ankhialos.
I copy, for edification of the group, my comments (from certain posts I
have mailed already some time ago) about the three Kantakouzenoi men who
are the attested forefathers of the Romanian Cantacuzino family and were in
the line of magnates of Ankhialos.
Because it needs to be made clear that genealogies which market an
unbroken male-line from the Kantakouzenoi emperors, are low-quality and
should be discarded.

- - - - -

the 'shaitan' Kantakouzenos: 'shaitan' (possibly Demetrios)
Kantakouzenos, sea captain


He was called as 'shaitan', 'the Devil', 'the Satan', by the Ottomans - who
feared him. This Kantakouzenos was a Greek leader who is merely known as
'shaitan' Kantakouzenos. He was a Greek scourge against the Ottomans. A
buccaneer and rebel, he encouraged and led Greeks to oppose the Ottoman
rule, robbed Ottoman possessions and attacked Ottoman vessels, forces and
officials.
The 'shaitan' Kantakouzenos is more of a legend than history. Legend says
that the Ottomans started to call him 'Devil', he being such an adversary
against them.
He is the man which semi-historical accounts of the family posit as the
father of the 'saitanoglu'. It is not properly attested that 'shaitan'
really was named Demetrios, although such baptismal name is plausible.


If he was the father of archon Mikael Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos,
then it is his male lineage which carries the name Kantakouzenos,
Cantacuzino, in modern epoch and to the present day.
The 'Shaitan' Kantakouzenos (or if his historicity is not accepted, then
his son Mikael 'saitanoglu') is the earliest known forefather of the
lineage which in modern epoch and to the present day, carries the name
Kantakouzenos, Cantacuzino. No lineage before him is historically attested
in any reliable way, nor is attested any reliable descent from earlier
bearers of that famous name.

It is conceivable that the 'Shaitan' would have belonged to one of the
numerous branches of the high-medieval byzantine Kantakouzenoi.
The 'shaitan' Kantakouzenos was possibly somehow descended from some branch
of the Byzantine noble family Kantakouzenos, but even this cannot be
verified.

Although several low-quality (and wishful-thinking) genealogies derive an
imperial patriline for the 'Shaitan' Kantakouzenos and his family, that
lineage is not historically attested.
No reliable accounts establish any descent from earlier bearers of that
famous name. Moreover, mythical pedigrees usually outdo themselves making
impossible chronologies, such as the one which the family presented to
Russian authorities of heraldry.
It is too ambitious a folly to claim ancestry from Kantakouzenoi emperors
just on basis of this name - which belonged in the high- and late-medieval
Constantinople to several other Kantakouzenoi branches and families than
just the 1300s imperial branch.
It is totally irresponsible to present without clear caution such
genealogies which derive the 'shaitan' directly from Kantakouzenoi Emperors
of Constantinople.

A descent from some collateral Kantakouzenoi of high-medieval epoch is
likelier.

It is not known at all who was the father of the 'shaitan' Kantakouzenos.
Neither is it known who was his grandfather.

the 'Shaitan' seems to have died in Pisa, Italy, in 1536. His birth dating
is not known, but he was probably born in the 1480s.

the 'shaitan' Kantakouzenos' famous son Mikael Kantakouzenos, 'saitanoglu'
= son of devil,
was executed by the Ottomans, in Spring 1578.





in Genealogics, this individual is (currently) the entry
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00621771&tree=LEO

- - - - -

archon Mikael Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos

The Ottomans ultimately had the business magnate Mikael Kantakouzenos
executed.
He was called as 'Son of Devil', saitanoglu, by the Ottomans - who had
feared particularly his father. Mikhael Kantakouzenos, magnate of
Ankhialos, was son of a Greek leader who is merely known as 'shaitan'
Kantakouzenos. It is not properly attested that 'shaitan' was Demetrios,
although such baptismal name is plausible. Mikael's father, the 'Shaitan',
a Greek scourge against Ottomans, seems to have died in Pisa, Italy, in
1536.

the immensely rich Greek nobleman Mikael Kantakouzenos, a business magnate,
is the earliest man of his lineage who is unambiguously attested in
historical records.
The Ottomans had Mikael executed, in the Spring of 1578 (the date was
either in March or in May 1578). His birth dating is not known, but he was
probably born around 1520.

It is his male lineage which in modern epoch and to the present day,
carries the name Kantakouzenos, Cantacuzino.
Many of his descendants (grandsons) moved and settled permanently in the
Balkan provinces in the 1600s. They founded branches of the Kantakouzenoi
in Danubian lands (Moldavia, Valachia). Several descendants flourished and
were prominent, some even as reigning princes.

Although several low-quality (and wishful-thinking) genealogies derive an
imperial patriline for him and his family, that lineage is not historically
attested.
No reliable accounts establish any descent from earlier bearers of that
famous name. Moreover, mythical pedigrees usually outdo themselves making
impossible chronologies, such as the one which the family presented to
Russian authorities of heraldry.
It is totally irresponsible to present such genealogies which derive him
directly from Kantakouzenoi Emperors of Constantinople.

Mikael 'saitanoglu' Kantakouzenos was possibly somehow descended from some
branch of the Byzantine noble family Kantakouzenos, but even this cannot be
verified. It is conceivable that this family would have belonged to some of
the branches of the high-medieval byzantine Kantakouzenoi. However it is
too ambitious folly to claim ancestry from Kantakouzenoi emperors just in
basis of this name - which belonged in high- and late-medival
Constantinople to several other Kantakouzenoi branches and families than
just the 1300s imperial branch.
a descent from some collateral Kantakouzenoi of high-medieval epoch is
likelier.

Indicated that when Mikael Kantakouzenos had been imprisoned and executed,
his young son Andronikos sort of vanished to the island of Crete and was
protected from Ottomans by maternal kinsfolk there. This indicates that
Mikael Kantakouzenos' wife would have been from a family with a base in the
island of Crete.

Another bad piece of low-quality genealogy is the claim that Mikael's sons
were born of a wife who would have been daughter of an autochthonous Prince
of Valachia, and sister of Petru 'schiopul', another autochthonous Prince
of Valachia. Many decades later, Mikael's son Andronikos and several
grandsons had sometime powerful positions in Valachia and in Danubian
principalities in general, but this does not prove the alleged maternal
root.
There is no reliable record of Mikael saitanoglu having sired sons to such
wife from Romania.



in Genealogics, this individual is (currently) the entry
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00243612&tree=LEO

- - - - -

archon Andronikos Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos


as far as is known, Andronikos Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos, was the
first 'Cantacuzino' who came to prominent position in what today is Romania.

Born in c1553,
he was son of a Greek nobleman, from Constantinople, Mikhael Kantakouzenos,
nicknamed Son of Devil, 'Saitanoglu', whom the Ottomans executed in Spring
1578.

Andronikos Kantakouzenos was possibly somehow descended from some branch of
the Byzantine noble family Kantakouzenos, but even this cannot be verified.
Totally irresponsible is to present such genealogies which derive him
directly from Kantakouzenoi Emperors of Constantinople.

Some story indicates that when archon Mikael Kantakouzenos, magnate of
Ankhialos, had been executed, his young son Andronikos sort of vanished to
the island of Crete and was protected from Ottomans by maternal kinsfolk
there. This indicates that Andronikos' mother would have been from a family
with a base on the island of Crete.

archon Andronikos Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos, was a counsellor of
the Ottoman sultan. The wealthy Andronikos, also a banker, became the 'mare
vistiernic' (grand treasurer) of the Romanian ruler Michael the Brave. In
the christian vassal provinces of Danube, there were better opportunities
than in the heart of the Ottoman empire, as the Ottomans had become more
aggressive and difficult, which meant increased oppression in
Constantinople.

archon Andronikos Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos, was executed by
hanging in November 1601.

Andronikos Kantakouzenos is said to be the forefather of all the Romanian
Cantacuzino family, as their name Kantakouzenos is rendered in latin-based
romanian orthography.

Andronikos' (eldest) son Toma Cantacuzino (Thomas Kantakouzenos) was sent
by sultan Murad II as envoy to negotiate in Moscow on two occasions (in
1621 and 1627).
Then Thomas and his brothers moved to the Balkan provinces. Andronikos had
three prominent sons: youngest was the 'postelnic' Constantin Cantacuzino
(Konstantinos 'Kostaki' Kantakouzenos) who settled in Valachia, while Toma
(Thomas) and Gheorghe 'Iordache' Cantacuzino (Georgios 'Iordaki'
Kantakouzenos) who both settled in Moldavia were his elder sons. They each
founded a branch in Danubian lands (male lines of the branches of Gheorghe
and Constantin are extant yet in the present day). Their several
descendants flourished and were prominent, some even as reigning princes.



in Genealogics, this individual is (currently) the entry
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00442739&tree=LEO

[Filmwaves]

Obviously there is lots of info floating around.

Michael Kantakouzinos was the son of Demitrios from unknown mother.
He married twice. From his first "Wallachian" wife he had one son Andronikos (b.1553). He second wife (m. ca. 1555) was a daughter of ?? Bassaraba and together they had 3 children Demitrios, Ioannis and a daughter.

Andronikos (1553 - 4 Nov. 1601) also married twice. 1st Wife Maria Chrysoscoleos (Cretan Descent); his second wife was Irene Rallis. With his second wife, he had 7 children. In my list, his first child/son was Iordakis b. 1581, and his 5th Child was Gheorghe (George) born 1600.
In the list above the two person are the one and the same.
His children were: Iordakis, Thomas, Michael, Konstantinos, George, Stanca and Balasa.

[mqs...@gmail.com]

torstai, 14. helmikuuta 2013 0.52.39 UTC+2 Filmwaves kirjoitti:

>
>
>
> Obviously there is lots of info floating around.
>
>
>
> Michael Kantakouzinos was the son of Demitrios from unknown mother.
>
> He married twice. From his first "Wallachian" wife he had one son Andronikos (b.1553). He second wife (m. ca. 1555) was a daughter of ?? Bassaraba and together they had 3 children Demitrios, Ioannis and a daughter.
>
>
>
> Andronikos (1553 - 4 Nov. 1601) also married twice. 1st Wife Maria Chrysoscoleos (Cretan Descent); his second wife was Irene Rallis. With his second wife, he had 7 children. In my list, his first child/son was Iordakis b. 1581, and his 5th Child was Gheorghe (George) born 1600.
>
> In the list above the two person are the one and the same.
>
> His children were: Iordakis, Thomas, Michael, Konstantinos, George, Stanca and Balasa.

ALMOST ALL OF THE ABOVE IS RUBBISH

:)

this is what we get when a lot of 'info' is floating around. Mis-info.


Only a few points show how rubbish that stuff is already inherently:

1) "his first child/son was Iordakis b. 1581, and his 5th Child was Gheorghe (George)"

Those who know at least something about these matters and about greek names and romanian names and their diminutives in respective languages, do know that 'Iordaki' (in romanian, 'Iordache') is diminutive of Georgios (Gheorghe), another (more folksy) rendition Jorgos (Iorgu), so those two different-named entries in the rubbish list are in fact one and the same person in real history.


2) "first "Wallachian" wife --- second wife (m. ca. 1555) was a daughter of ?? Bassaraba "

Again, rubbish. But the rubbish has now duplicated. I think the rubbish bin must be bursting out of its seams when this sort of rubbish duplication has been done.
A Valachian ruler surname-dubbed Basarab gave one daughter, and apparently the rubbish list has now a toirally other Valachian ruler also surname-dubbed Basarab giving his daughter too, so now the man has as many as two wives - with the same mythological root. But, unfortunately, the man's wife is historically unattested. The only indication is that his son Andronikos took refuge with maternal kin in the island of Crete, which points NOT to a Valachian origin of such a mother.

[Sjostrom]

by the way, a query out if simple curiosity:

Have I surmised correctly that the poster under the pen-name 'Filmwaves'
(who recently posted a message filled with genealogical rubbish to this
thread)
happens to be that specific George Tsambourakis who already some time ago
infested for years this group with useless, even harmful, genealogical
rubbish and demonstrated his incurable stupidity in genealogical matters
and demonstrated his fixations to so many incorrect misinformations and his
fixations to so many inappropriate methods
as well as his inability to grasp many historically attested features of
late-medieval Greek culture, onomastics and language particularly because
of his delusion that today Greek customs are the same and do not differ.

[Sjostrom]

'bella' Kantakouzene
==================

Now some words about 'bella' Kantakouzene (fl early 1600s), the wife of
Laskaris Rusetos, logothetes of Constantinople.
Despite of some dubbing her first name as Bella, she surely was Greek.

Firstly, it needs to be mentioned that 'bella' likeliest was not her
correct baptismal name. Instead, starting from the facts that
* In the then cultural context (under an islamic rule), names of females
are not that well known. A few names of females tend to get hidden.
* Some information about things in Constantinople in those days got
transmitted to preserved notes (writings) in Latin, Romanian or Italian.
So, nicknames that even happen to look sort of latinic, were preserved in
some cases.

A few females of Constantinople seem to be known to us merely under a sort
of latinic nickname. 'bella' means beautiful. I think that the lady who is
known to us as 'bella' Kantakouzene, was a beauty and her true name got
hidden behind that attribute or nickname.

I have seen two sorts of genealogies about this 'bella' Kantakouzene: some
genealogies assign her as daughter of the archon Andronikos Kantakouzenos,
magnate of Ankhialos (c1553-1602); and some others list her as a sister of
the same and thusly a daughter of the archon Mikael 'saitanoglu'
Kantakouzenos, magnate of Ankhialos (est 1520 -1578).

lady 'bella' Kantakouzene in Genealogics:
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00523114&tree=LEO

I suggest her dates that she were born in est 1590.

Presumably a precise near-contemporary record has not been preserved to say
authoritatively what was the correct paternity. The genealogical record
apparently merely knows that she is a daughter of this family, and
everything else then has been to try to place her chronologically
acceptably - or unacceptably but making the more impressive of the guys as
the father.

It is commonplace with mythology that
many events, occurrences and origins tend to be assigned directly to an
epic character of the myth (such as SON OF DEVIL)
while a careful study reveals that those things actually happened to
different members of that family or group.

Because of chronological considerations, I would not welcome the filiation
of 'bella' being daughter of Mikael 'saitanoglu' Kantakouzenos, because
that fatherhod makes the chronology all too stretched.
Much better, she fits to the genealogical position of daughter of
Andronikos.

Firstly, let's see the chronology of the husband of 'bella': Laskaris
Rusetos was an official in Constantinople, who deceased after 1646, still
holding in that year 1646 the chancellorship (=logothetes of the ecumenical
patriarchate of Constantinople). His career of holdership of relatively
high offices seems to span between 1613 and 1646. Perhaps he was about or
over 30 years old when being appointed to first of such in 1613. Some
genealogies have estimated his birth to about 1580.
The birth year 1580 or therearound agrees nicely with the chronology of
higher positions in Laskaris Rusetos' career.

Then, let's take a look to the chronology of 'career' of lady 'bella'
herself: she did not hold offices, but a female's age is usually somewhat
validly estimated when knowing her birthing career. Unfortunately, birth
yars of children of this lady 'bella' have not been attested with clarity.
But, the subsequent careers (and death dates in the very late of the
century) of her two sons justify sort of approximation that 'bella'
Kantakouzene should have been in her fertile years between 1610 and 1620.

Moreover, some genealogies have preserved a claim (a plausible one) that
the wedding of 'bella' Kantakouzene and Laskaris Rusetos took place in
1605.

If the marriage date holds, then it should be presumed that 'bella' was
born AFTER 1580. In those days, daughters were married off at an young age,
such as 15. A female spinster over 25 would highly likely have remained a
spinster in that social class.

That Laskaris Rusetos was appointed to his apparently first high office in
1613, but married already in 1605, signals to me a likelihood that he was a
young man when marrying and not yet in his middle years. Age of 25 or so,
would seem plausible in this context and due to dates of career.

the birthing career of 'bella' agrees nicely with the date of 1605 for her
wedding. If she gave birth in 1620 and possibly even after that, 1580 or
later would be a plausible birth estimate for her.

two sons of 'bella' were: Konstantinos Rusetos and Antonios Rusetos
[romanian rendition of the latter's name: Antonie Ruset]. Konstantinos
could have been born around 1607 and Antonie as late as in c1620.

>From all those considerations of the birth estimate of Laskaris Rusetos and
the career of 'bella', I tend to think that 'bella' herself was born around
1590. In that case, she would have been at the relatively usual age when
getting wedded.

Her birth to be before 1580 is a real stretch and implausible. That she
were born in or before 1578 when archon Mikael was killed, is too much of a
stretch. Even if something is possible, it is not in this case plausible.

However, another fact makes it yet so very unlikely that Mikael were her
father: Mikael's known child (children) are known to be born in about the
1550s.
That is a timing which is not at all even possible for this lady 'bella'
Kantakouzene whose husband's career and whose own giving birthes set her to
a time fifty or more years later.

So, I submit my conclusion that Mikael was not the father of 'bella'
Kantakouzene by a high likelihood.
Instead, if accepting that 'bella' belonged to this family, then the other
fatherhood presented in other genealogies, namely Andronikos as her father,
is clearly more probable and chronologically very acceptable.

[Derek Howard]

On Sunday, February 17, 2013 9:46:02 PM UTC+1, Sjostrom wrote:
<snip>

> So, I submit my conclusion that Mikael was not the father of 'bella'
> Kantakouzene by a high likelihood.
> Instead, if accepting that 'bella' belonged to this family, then the other
> fatherhood presented in other genealogies, namely Andronikos as her father,
> is clearly more probable and chronologically very acceptable.

Thanks for this interesting reasoning. However, do you have any contemporary references, original documentation, etc., on which to pin all this rather than leaving all to the art of speculation?

Derek Howard

[Colin B. Withers]

Hi,

If anyone has an electronic copy of these reports, or a download link, and wouldn't mind forwarding, I would very much appreciate it.

Many Thanks

Wibs

[Matt A]

"Wibs":

42nd on Google: http://books.google.com/books?id=RnruKzpJIEIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
43rd on Google: http://books.google.com/books?id=HBEPCaK4NZEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
42nd on Familysearch Books: https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?dps_pid=IE523361&dps_dvs=1361193785435~10&dps_pid=IE523361&change_lng=en
[43 is not on Familysearch Books]
42 on Hathitrust: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011914556;seq=9;view=1up;num=i
43 on Hathitrust (warning: full book pdf downloads on Hathitrust are HUGE): http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004181296;seq=7;view=1up

-Matt Ahlgren

[Sjostrom]

talking about low-quality genealogies which need caution,

today one such warning arose specifically about these Cantacuzino of
Romania and their patrilineal root. I enclose here text of a message which
I mailed to Leo:

"firstly I should mention that in all more difficult questions of medieval
genealogy, that Hoffman's works tend to be rubbish.
His ability, if any, is in copying of material, but certainly not in
analyzing research. Hoffman copies also a lot of rubbish."


http://genealogics.org/showsource.php?sourceID=S03573&tree=LEO
Constance Elena Rosetti-Solescu Byzantine Ancestors 2013 Author Hoffmann,
Ernst-Axel

[Sjostrom]

historically non-existent man
===================

Having expended some study into the Kantakouzenos families of the late
1400s,
it is my considered opinion that the following man is not at all attested
in any form nor way in any near-contemporary source:

genealogics personID I00621769



Mihal Kantakouzenos[1]
- 1522


Personal Information | Sources | All

Sex Male
Lived In Greece
Died 1522
Person ID I00621769 Leo
Last Modified 29 Jan 2013

Father Dimitrie Kantakouzenos
Mother NN
Family ID F00263860 Group Sheet

Family NN
Married
Children
> 1. Dimitri 'Saltan' Cantacuzino
Last Modified 29 Jan 2013
Family ID F00263861 Group Sheet

Sources 1. [S03573] Constance Elena Rosetti-Solescu Byzantine
Ancestors 2013, Hoffmann, Ernst-Axel, Reference:


- - - - - -

In other words, this "Mihal" is a figment of imagination, according to
presented source coming from the imagination of a Mr Hoffmann.
A harmful thing for research.

As I have mentioned already earlier, identity of the father of the
'Shaitan' (possibly Demetrios) Kantakouzenos
is not historically known, nor are there any ways to pinpoint his father to
any good degree of likelihood.

>From the other direction, the Masarelli manuscript reports about Demetrios
'sekhtanes' Kantakouzenos, between 1466 and 1473 *Domestikos* of the *Megale
** Ekklesia* of Constantinople (a younger son of the historical Georgios
'sakhatai' Palaiologos Kantakouzenos, archon of Semendria, attested in
several near-contemporary sources), saying that his (= the 'sekhtanes')
both sons were childless and that the names of the two sons of 'sekhtanes'
were Andronikos and Manuel.
So, no son named "Mihal" (or anything resembling it) according to that
source. Nor a son who would have children.


Of course there are several internal and external reasons for hilarity when
taking a look at what this person is presented as (for example, what
mongrel language the name "Mihal" represents), but all that ridiculousness
pales under the light of the greater consideration that such person is not
at all historically attested - to the contrary, sources seem to exclude the
possibility of a man genealogically so situated with that specific first
name.

A death date of "1522" for the unhistorical person thusly must come from
someone's hat. Figment of further imagination.

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00621769&tree=LEO

[Sjostrom]

'bella' Kantakouzene
==================


one more suggestion from literature, a book presenting several boyar clans:

"...familia Ruset se trage din Laskaros Russetos, mare logofăt al
patriarhului (de la Constantino-pol), atestat la 1629, când a semnat
alături de patriarhul Chiril un act care atesta legitimitatea copiilor lui
Radu Mihnea. El era căsătorit cu 'bella', fiica lui Ioannes Kantakouzenos,
agentul lui Mihai Viteazul la Ţarigrad ."
Familiile marilor boieri din Moldova veacului XIX

Ţarigrad would be Istanbul in this case.
În limba română veche Constantinopolul era denumit *Țarigrad*, adică
"Cetatea Împăratului" sau a "Cezarului", cu referire la faptul că până în
anul 1453 Constantinopolul a fost reședința Imperiului Roman de Răsărit.

such a Ioannes Kantakouzenos is already third suggested person as being one
of the alternative fathers of 'bella'.

A man active and adult in the time of Michael the brave, is
chronologically acceptable as the father of 'bella'.

- - - -
already earlier, I mentioned:

Because of chronological considerations, I would not welcome the filiation
of 'bella' being daughter of Mikael 'saitanoglu' Kantakouzenos, because
that fatherhod makes the chronology all too stretched.
Much better, she fits to the genealogical position of daughter of
Andronikos.

....