Is Thierry of Autun the same person as Makhir?
Nathaniel Lane Taylor
> Alan B. Wilson <abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu> recently asked
> > Has there been work in the past two decades which would tend
> > to confirm or cast doubt on the identity of Thierry and Makhir?
> This postulated identity is plausible but not yet
> adequately supported in print.
>
> A significant piece of evidence relevant to the
> identification of Makhir with Theuderic is a declaration from
> 791 of the judges Arasolario, Deoavio, and others of a court
> authorized by Maghario, Count of Narbonne. Zuckerman (1972,
> p. 180) says, "There can be no doubt that Maghario or
> Magharius is a Romanized form of Makhir." (This is the only
> non-Hebrew source currently known to name Makhir of Narbonne
> explicitly.) Additional relevant information can be obtained
> from careful analysis of the names and relationships in the
> chansons de geste, in which Theuderic is called Aymeri, Count
> of Narbonne.
>
> -- Don Stone (snug at home in Philadelphia,
> where we have > 2 ft. of snow!)
This charter of December 5 (?there is a lacuna here, but it must be
between the 2d and the 5th), 791, was a fragmentary eighth-century
parchment, partially edited first by Jean Mabillon, in his magnum opus _De
re diplomatica libri VI..._ (Paris, 1681), pp. 396 (text) and 397
(facsimile of five lines). Mabillon's transcription names the count
*Magnario*--not Maghario. The document is also transcribed in
Cros-Mayrevielle, _Histoire du comte et de la vicomte de Carcassonne_
(Paris, 1846), document no. 3, although this is not an independent
rendering of the document, which has been lost since the Revolution, if
not before.
Eighth-century Franco-Visigothic scribal hands are estraordinarily
illegible, even to someone who, like me, has some expertise reading ninth-
and tenth-century Franco-Visigothic scribal hands. And I'm not sure how
accurate the facsimile is, or by what method it was made for the printing
of _De re Diplomatica_ in 1681 (although the copy in my university pibrary
looks like it was printed yesterday--a plug for good quality paper and
fine printing craftsmanship).
But that being said, I'm not sure that the reading "Maghario" can really
be preferred to "Magnario". Certainly Zuckerman was no palaeographer.
But if the spelling really is "Maghario", who's to say that the name here
must be the Hebrew "Makhir"? What about the Greek Christian name
"Macarius"--surely familiar to anyone who had access to the most popular
medieval collection of early saints' lives, the "Vitae patruum"?
Many of Zuckerman's points, including this one, are not successfully
supported. I hope that Professor Kelley is not building his work in this
area on Zuckerman's shaky foundation.
Nat Taylor (snug at home in Providence, with circa 18 inches and growing).
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Lane Taylor
nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Lane Taylor) wrote:
> In article <4cqi3b$d...@netaxs.com>, dons...@cpcn.com (Don Stone) wrote:
>
> > Alan B. Wilson <abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu> recently asked
...........
> >
> > -- Don Stone (snug at home in Philadelphia,
> > where we have > 2 ft. of snow!)
>
>
>
> Nat Taylor (snug at home in Providence, with circa 18 inches and growing).
Just for the record--lest there be any misunderstanding--I meant this to
refer to the snow outside.
Don Stone
> Kelley (1982, p. 255) proposes that Makhir is a great-
> great-greatgrandson in the male line of Bostanai, the
> first Babylonian exilarch after the Muslim conquest.
> Bostanai had a grandson who early in the eighth century
> claimed to be a 70th generation descendant of King David of
> Israel, which I interpret to mean that if David were number
> 1, he would be numbered 71. If this is accurate (though
> it's likely to be a little high), Makhir/Theuderic would be
> numbered 74.
I note that according to the report of this claim in The Jewish
Encyclopedia, vol. 5, 1903, p. 293, the exilarch (unnamed) said
that 70 generations have passed between him and King David,
whereas he refers to Husain (grandson of the prophet Mohammed) as
coming one generation after the prophet. Thus, this exilarch
appears to be counting just the intervening generations, so I
amend my earlier interpretation to say that if David were number
1, the exilarch would be numbered 72, and Makhir/Theuderic would
be numbered 75.
-- Don Stone (snug at home in Philadelphia,
Don Stone
> to confirm or cast doubt on the identity of Thierry and Makhir?
This postulated identity is plausible but not yet
contains the first extensive argument that Thierry/Theuderic
and Makhir are identical; he also proposes that they are the
same person as Natronai ben Habibai, a former Babylonian
exilarch, but David H. Kelley (1982, p. 255) believes it is
more likely that Makhir and Natronai are brothers. Jeremy
Cohen (1977) provides the most thorough critique of the
hypothesized identity of Makhir and Theuderic. Neither
Zuckerman nor Cohen, however, pays much attention to detailed
genealogical evidence or to the dramatic influx of Jewish
names into the Carolingian upper nobility of southern France,
both of which could strengthen the case for the identity of
Makhir and Theuderic.
identification of Makhir with Theuderic is a declaration from
791 of the judges Arasolario, Deoavio, and others of a court
authorized by Maghario, Count of Narbonne. Zuckerman (1972,
p. 180) says, "There can be no doubt that Maghario or
Magharius is a Romanized form of Makhir." (This is the only
non-Hebrew source currently known to name Makhir of Narbonne
explicitly.) Additional relevant information can be obtained
from careful analysis of the names and relationships in the
chansons de geste, in which Theuderic is called Aymeri, Count
of Narbonne.
it is "hard to imagine how such a fantastic chapter in the
history of European Jewry could simply have vanished from
every contemporary source," but part of the answer may be
that marriage between Christian and Jew was forbidden by
canon law. Thus, in the Christian milieu, families in which
there was a Jewish spouse or ancestor had an interest in
making sure that there was no record of the Jewish background
of this individual, because that might later impede
inheritance from him or her.
It appears that the identity of Makhir and Theuderic will
ultimately be supported by a rather large number of
observations, each of which by itself does not carry much
weight, though their cumulative impact is substantial.
Kelley has been working for some time on a monograph on
this subject. He is currently wrapping up a book on
archaeoastronomy, after which he will be putting his energy
into completing the Davidic/exilarch monograph.
Some miscellaneous additional comments:
Kelley (1982, p. 255) proposes that Makhir is a great-
Bostanai had a grandson who early in the eighth century
claimed to be a 70th generation descendant of King David of
Israel, which I interpret to mean that if David were number
1, he would be numbered 71. If this is accurate (though it's
likely to be a little high), Makhir/Theuderic would be
numbered 74.
Charles Martel, since it is known that she had sisters named
Hiltrudis and Landrada, and Charles Martel had a daughter
Hiltrudis and probably also a daughter Landrada. However,
Hlawitschka (1965) argues that the most nearly contemporary
records do not support identifying Charles Martel as father
of Alda, and Kelley (1994, p. 115) has also expressed doubt
that she was the daughter of Charles Martel. Cf. Settipani
and Van Kerrebrouck (1993, pp. 173-176), which includes a
discussion of the possible European background of Theuderic.
Minor point: in generation 4, Maacah is the mother, not
the wife, of Abijah (1 Kings 15:2).
Sources of information:
Cohen, Jeremy. 1977. "The Nasi of Narbonne: A Problem in
Medieval Historiography." AJS Review 2: 45-76.
Hlawitschka, Eduard. 1965. "Die Vorfahren Karls des
Grossen." In Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben,
ed. by Wolfgang Braunfels, vol. 1. Dusseldorf.
Kelley, David H. 1982. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail: Two
Reviews" (second by Robert C. Anderson). The Genealogist
3: 249-258.
Kelley, David H. 1994. "A Mediaeval Miscellany:
Commentaries on Roderick W. Stuart's Royalty for
Commoners," The American Genealogist 69 (April): 110-118.
Settipani, Christian, and Patrick Van Kerrebrouck. 1993. La
prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987. Premiere partie:
Merovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens. Villeneuve
d'Ascq (France): P. Van Kerrebrouck.
Zuckerman, Arthur J. 1972. A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France,
768-900. New York and London: Columbia University Press.
-- Don Stone (snug at home in Philadelphia,
where we have > 2 ft. of snow!)
rcs
On 8 Jan 1996, Nathaniel Lane Taylor wrote:
> In article <4cqi3b$d...@netaxs.com>, dons...@cpcn.com (Don Stone) wrote:
>
> > Alan B. Wilson <abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu> recently asked
> > > Has there been work in the past two decades which would tend
> > > to confirm or cast doubt on the identity of Thierry and Makhir?
> > This postulated identity is plausible but not yet
> > adequately supported in print.
> >
> > A significant piece of evidence relevant to the
> > identification of Makhir with Theuderic is a declaration from
> > 791 of the judges Arasolario, Deoavio, and others of a court
> > authorized by Maghario, Count of Narbonne. Zuckerman (1972,
> > p. 180) says, "There can be no doubt that Maghario or
> > Magharius is a Romanized form of Makhir." (This is the only
> This charter of December 5 (?there is a lacuna here, but it must be
I think these basic errors are why the academic community most
interested in this area have never taken on board his thesis.
As I can't read Hebrew, I cannot judge Zuckerman's conclusions based on
Jewish texts, but Theuderic is always called a Frank in contemporary
sources, so were his descendants. Their ancestry has been laboriously
worked out over many years and much argument by French scholars
(Calmette, Auzias Levillain, Lot) and German (Wollasch, Werner), as well
as appearing in recent English publications: Mckitterick and
Nelson's various publications. None of these see them as
anything other than Franks.
The Carolingians did appoint officials over the Jews, a _magister
Iudaeorum_ (sp?) is reported at Lyons in the 820's, who seem
to have been directly answerable to the Emperor. However their
names like Theuderic's are Frankish and they do not seem to have
been practicing Jews.
Zuckerman's work and his methods were heavily criticised
by A.Grabois, 'Une principaute juive dans la France du
Midi a l'epoque Carolingienne?', Annales du Midi, 85, 1973,
pp191-202.
Jews did play a major role in Gaul during this period, and
moreover were active in trying to convert christians. However
the appearance of biblical names among the Frankish
aristocracy does not by itself indicate some Jewis descent or
intermarriage but the rise in interest in the Old Testament. In the court
circle at Aachen Charlemagne's 'nickname' was David. Agobard
of Lyons tells us that christians flocked to the synagogues
because they had heard that Jewish priests gave better sermons.
It is not surprising that naming patterns among both the nobles
and peasentry should reflect this.
rcs
Rik Vigeland
the theory as plausable. I did see an alternative ancestry
posted on the Prodigy bulletin board about 15 months ago,
and will include it here, verbatim. Sources are not cited,
and I simply ask that someone "out there" post publicly to
say what is wrong with this alternative.
Note: Thierry is #4, in the start of the 3rd generation.
Thanks. Here is the original post:
From: MVR...@Prodigy.com (MICHAEL J RAFFIN)
Ancestors of Manasses, Comte de Bourgogne
--------1ST GENERATION--------
1. Manasses, Count de Bourgogne; Name-Var Manasses, Count d'Autun ;
Born: before 886 in France; Manasses is presumed to have been at least
18 years of age by the time his son Gilbert was born.; Married: before
903 Ermengarde
--------2ND GENERATION--------
2. Theodoric, Count d'Autun; Name-Var Theodoric, Count de Macon ;
Name-Var Theodoric, Count de Chalon ; Born: before 867 in France;
Theodoric is presumed to have been born before his father was 50 years
of age.; Married: before 885 N? de Metz
3. N? de Metz; Name-Marr d'Autun ; Born: before 864; She is presumed
to have been born before her father was 50 years of age.; Married:
before 885 Theodoric, Count d'Autun
--------3RD GENERATION--------
4. Thierry I, Count d'Autun; Name-Var Thierry I, Count de Chaumois ;
Occupation:; Thierry I was the Chamberlain of Charles "Le Chauve".;
Born: before 817 in France; Thierry I was alive in the year 817.;
Married: before 853 Auda; Died: circa 880; Thierry I was alive in the
year 879.
5. Auda; Name-Marr d'Autun ; Born: before 0838; Auda is presumed to
have been at least 15 years of age by the time her son Richard was
born.; Married: before 853 Thierry I, Count d'Autun
6. Beuve=Bouin, Count de Bourgogne; Name-Var Buwin, Count d'Autun ;
Name-Var Budwine, Count de Metz ; Name-Var Buvinus, Abbe de Gorze ;
Born: before 814; Beuve is presumed to have been at least 15 years of
age by the time his daughter Richilde was born.; Married: before 829
Richilde d'Arles; Died: after 877; Beuve was alive in the year 877 as
well as in 840.
7. Richilde d'Arles; Name-Marr de Bourgogne ; Born: before 814;
Richilde is presumed to have been at least 15 years of age by the time
her daughter Richilde was born.; Married: before 829 Beuve=Bouin, Count
de Bourgogne; Died: 883
--------4TH GENERATION--------
8. Childebrand II, Lord de Perracy; Born: before 765; Childebrand II
is presumed to have been at least 15 years of age by the time his
daughter Berthe was born.; Married: before 780 Dune d'Autun; Died:
circa 0830
9. Dune d'Autun; Name-Marr de Perracy ; Born: before 765; Dune is
presumed to have been at least 15 years of age by the time her daughter
Berthe was born.; Married: before 780 Childebrand II, Lord de Perracy
12. Richard, Count d'Amiens; Born: before 799 in Lyonnais, France;
Richard was alive in the year 801, and 825, and is presumed to have been
at least 15 years of age by the time his son Beuve was born.; Married:
before 814 N? in France; Died: 825
13. N? ; Married: before 814 Richard, Count d'Amiens in France
14. Boson III, Count de Turin; Name-Nick Boson "Le Vieux" ; Born:
before 799; Boson III is presumed to have been at least 15 years of age
by the time his daughter Richilde was born.; Married: before 814 N?;
Died: before 855
15. N? ; Married: before 814 Boson III, Count de Turin
--------5TH GENERATION--------
16. Nivelon, Lord de Perracy; Name-Var Nivelon, Seigneur de Montisan ;
Born: before 750; Nivelon is presumed to have been at least 15 years of
age by the time his son Childebrand II was born.; Married: before 765
N? ; Died: 9 Oct 768
17. N? ; Married: before 765 Nivelon, Lord de Perracy
28. Boson II, Count de Turin; Born: before 0784; Boson II is presumed
to have been at least 15 years of age by the time his son Boson III was
born.; Married: before 0799 N?; Died: after 826; Boson II was alive in
the year 826.
29. N? ; Married: before 799 Boson II, Count de Turin
--------6TH GENERATION--------
32. Childebrand I, Count d'Autun; Born: before 0714; Married: before
750 Rolande; Died: 751
33. Rolande; Name-Marr d'Autun ; Born: before 0735; Rolande is
presumed to have been at least 15 years of age by the time her son
Nivelon was born. Rolande was a Merovingian.; Married: before 750
Childebrand I, Count d'Autun
56. Boson I, Count de Turin; Born: before 750; Died: after 750;
Boson I was alive in the year 750.; Married: before 784 N?
57. N? ; Married: before 784 Boson I, Count de Turin
--------7TH GENERATION--------
64. Pepin II d'Heristal; Born: circa 635 in Liege, Belgium; Note:
between 679 and 714; The services of the Palace were ensured by the
Greats [nobles], known as "Optimates", frequently brought up at a very
young age within the King's entourage. Because the Canerarii's task was
to watch over the King's chamber and the precious treasure kept in it,
it was logical that he should be given financial attributes. Since the
eldest officer was the seneschal [senescallus] he was given the task of
overseeing the army. The Comes Stabuli' job was to watch over the
King's stables. There were others based on various tasks. The most
singular office was that of Major Domus, frequently called Mayor of the
Palace. Originally, this was only an attendant whose job was to
maintain appropriate levels of stocks and supplies, and to coordinate
the activities of other personnel in the King's palace. In early 679,
Dagobert II, who had returned form an exile in Ireland, attempted to
govern Austrasia with the help of his Mayor of the Palace, Goufaud. The
Greats prefer Pepin II, grand-son of Pepin de Landen. By the end of
679, Dagobert II is killed in a hunting "accident". Pepin II was the
Mayor-of-the-Palace of Austrasie from 679 to 714.
In 680, Ebroin and Thierry III of Neustria fight and force Pepin II to
flee at Leucofao, near Bois-du-Fay in the Ardennes. When Pepin II
recognizes Thierry III as the only King of Gaule, the war between the
two is suspended for about 3 years. At Tertry three leagues from
Saint-Quentin, Pepin II fought and beat Thierri III, King of Neustrie
and in 687 took that kingdom. It is at that time that he begins to be
known as Pepin de Herstal or d'Heristal. It is also clear that by that
time, the office of Major Domus had become essentially hereditary and
that it grew in power as that of the King's declined. Pepin II directed
a number of expeditions against the Frisons [defeating Duke Radbod in
689 and sending them Willibrod to convert them to Christianity], the
Alamanians [whom he defeats near Lake Constance in 690] and the Bavarois
[who submitted to Pepin II in 691]. When Norbert, Mayor of Neustria and
of Burgundy died [whom Pepin II had designated in 688], circa 700, Pepin
installed his own son, Grimoald=Grimaud.; Married: before 685 Plectrud
d'Echternach; Married: before 686 Aupais=Alpaide; Historians recognize
Alpais as Pepin II's one concubine, which seems rather modest for a
personage of his status at that time.; Died: 16 Dec 714 in
Jupile-sur-Meuse, Belgium
65. Aupais=Alpaide; Name-Marr d'Heristal ; Born: before 671; Alpais
is presumed to have been at least 15 years of age by the time her son
Charles was born.; Married: before 686 Pepin II d'Heristal; Historians
recognize Alpais as Pepin II's one concubine, which seems rather modest
for a personage of his status at that time.
66. N? ; Married: before 735 Berthe
67. Berthe; Born: before 720; Berthe is presumed to have been at
least 15 years of age by the time her daughter Rolande was born. Berthe
was a Merovingian.; Married: before 735 N?
ri...@wv.mentorg.com
Rik Vigeland
Alan B. Wilson
pedigree of Manasses "the Old", in which Manasses's grandfather
is identified as the Thierry of Autun who married Auda and might
(or might not) be the same person as Makhir.
The Thierry who was grandfather of Manasses would seem
to be in a different family and some two generations later than
the Thierry under discussion in this thread. Thierry
(Manasses's grandfather) was chamberlain of Charles the Bald;
Bernard of Septimania, *grandson* of Thierry [=?Makhir], was
chamberlain of Louis "the Pious".
Moriarty (pp. 232-233, 255-257, and 43) suggests
*probable* relationships between the two families:
Pepin of Heristal = Aupais = NN
| |
Karl Martel Childebrand
| |
Thierry I = Auda Nivelon
| |
------------------ |
| | |
St. William Thierry II =Childebrand II
| | || |
Bernard Dunna=== Thierry I
| |
Regelinde of Agen Thierry II
| |
William II Mannases "the Old"
The squiggly equal marks are supposed to indicate that
Dunna was married to Childebrand II. Thus Karl Martel and
Childebrand I would be half-brothers ("uterine brothers"); and
Thierry I and Thierry I would be (if this is right), I believe,
second cousins twice removed. (I'm still not very proficient at
calculating these relationships.) Also Thierry I would be
"great grandfather-in-law", if there is such a thing, of Thierry
I (grandfather of Mannases). Isn't that lucid?
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu