Wells Family DNA Project: Posted Results
Douglas Richardson
Those descended from any of the numerous Wells/Welles families in
America and the British Isles will doubtless be interested in the
posted results of the large Wells Family DNA Project at the following
weblink:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/dnaproje.html
The results of the project are analyzed in what is termed "BaseLine DNA
Patterns" at the following weblink:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/baseline.html
The DNA results of the two Wells families in my own ancestry can be
found in the posted BaseLine results. The first Wells immigrant in my
ancestry is Governor Thomas Welles, of Connecticut (Family W015 in the
project). The other Wells immigrant in my ancestry (in this case a
Wells widow) is Widow Frances (Albright) Wells, of Massachusetts
(Family W001 in the project). The Wells DNA Project reports that the
two families have similar DNA and both are R1B Haplotype.
It has been known for many years that Governor Thomas Welles hails from
Warwickshire in England, whereas my own research has proven that Thomas
Wells, the non-immigrating husband of Frances Albright, derives from
nearby Evesham, Worcestershire (see my article in the New England Hist.
Gen. Register, Vol. 146, published in 1992 for details). Normally a
match within 5 values of a baseline family or between baseline families
indicates there is a relationship between the two families or between
an individual and the family. In the case of these two families, their
respective DNA is off by a total of 8 values over 37 markers.
Perhaps someone familiar with modern DNA test results can comment on
the meaning of a difference of 8 values between two families of the
same surname, both of whom have origins in the same part of England.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1169708744....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Douglas Richardson
I inadvertedly forgot about a third Wells family in my ancestry, that
of the immigrant, Isabel (Wells) Tuttle, of Ringstead,
Northamptonshire. She immigrated to New England in 1635 on the ship,
the Planter, with her son, William Tuttle, afterwards of New Haven,
Connecticut.
http://members.aol.com/dcurtin1/gene/planter.htm
Among Isabel (Wells) Tuttle's descendants is the famous Rev. Jonathan
Edwards, the Puritan divine, who is generally believed to be the most
brilliant mind of the colonial period. My Richardson line descends
from Anne (Edwards) Richardson, the aunt of Rev. Jonathan Edwards.
Since there are no known male descendants of this particular Wells
family,. it would be difficult to determine this family's DNA. I note,
however, that one online genealogical database has placed Isabel's
father, John Wells, as a member of the same family as Governor Thomas
Welles, of Connecticut.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dav4is/ODTs/WELLS.shtml#WELL45
As far as I know, this placement is utterly baseless and without
foundation. Also, the person has erroneously identified Isabel Wells'
mother as Jennet Lawtie, when her actually name was Helen.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Jan 25, 12:05 am, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
Douglas Richardson
Good to hear from you as always.
I'm not familiar with Orson Welles' extended ancestry. However, my
good friend, Gary Boyd Roberts, would certainly know it. I'll be sure
to ask him the next time we speak.
In the meantime, please blow some warm Hawaiian trade winds our way.
We've been below freezing here for the last thirteen days. We're all
ready for warmer temperatures. Where is global warming when you need
it?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Jan 25, 12:25 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
D. Spencer Hines
College, in 1720 as valedictorian, and a Yale residential college there is
named after him. He was also, briefly, President of what later became
Princeton University. But died of smallpox shortly after assuming his
duties.
DSH
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1169743398....@13g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
pj.evans
Doug, how does this tie her to the Welles/Wells family, because as
written she's an Albright?
On Jan 24, 11:05 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
Doug McDonald
>
> It has been known for many years that Governor Thomas Welles hails from
> Warwickshire in England, whereas my own research has proven that Thomas
> Wells, the non-immigrating husband of Frances Albright, derives from
> nearby Evesham, Worcestershire (see my article in the New England Hist.
> Gen. Register, Vol. 146, published in 1992 for details). Normally a
> match within 5 values of a baseline family or between baseline families
> indicates there is a relationship between the two families or between
> an individual and the family. In the case of these two families, their
> respective DNA is off by a total of 8 values over 37 markers.
>
> Perhaps someone familiar with modern DNA test results can comment on
> the meaning of a difference of 8 values between two families of the
> same surname, both of whom have origins in the same part of England.
>
Just from the DNA, there is a statistical probability of
being related, with the common ancestor a certain time ago.
For this case, assuming a generation length of 31 years,
there is a 50% chance that the common ancestor of the two lines
lived less than 1100 years ago. There is a 10% chance that
the common ancestor lived less than 680 years ago. There is a 20% chance
that he lived less than 800 years ago. There is only a two percent
chance he lived less than 460 years ago.
But in this case we have the additional knowledge that
the two living testees come from lines that diverged hundreds of
years ago. That information can be combined mathematically
with the DNA data, and will always make the most likely time
for the common ancestor farther in the past than if we had DNA
data alone. However, in this case the effect is very small.
The nest result is that the DNA data is quite convincing that,
at the time of Governor Welles, the two families were even at
that time distant cousins.
Doug McDonald
joseph cook
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dav4is/ODTs/WELLS.shtml#WELL45
>
> As far as I know, this placement is utterly baseless and without
> foundation. Also, the person has erroneously identified Isabel Wells'
> mother as Jennet Lawtie, when her actually name was Helen.
Douglas,
Where can I find a source for this information. As far as I was
aware, the ancestry of my ancestor Isabel Wells was unknown except her
father's name being 'John'. (This coming from the will of Simon Tuttle
who mentioned his name)
Thanks,
Joe C
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:...
> Where does Orson Welles fit into this, Douglas?
>
> DSH
>
> "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:1169708744....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Dear Newsgroup ~
>>
>> Those descended from any of the numerous Wells/Welles families in
>> America and the British Isles will doubtless be interested in the
>> posted results of the large Wells Family DNA Project at the following
>> weblink:
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/dnaproje.html
>>
>> The results of the project are analyzed in what is termed "BaseLine DNA
>> Patterns" at the following weblink:
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/baseline.html
>>
>> The DNA results of the two Wells families in my own ancestry can be
>> found in the posted BaseLine results. The first Wells immigrant in my
>> ancestry is Governor Thomas Welles, of Connecticut (Family W015 in the
>> project). The other Wells immigrant in my ancestry (in this case a
>> Wells widow) is Widow Frances (Albright) Wells, of Massachusetts
>> (Family W001 in the project). The Wells DNA Project reports that the
>> two families have similar DNA and both are R1B Haplotype.
>>
>> It has been known for many years that Governor Thomas Welles hails from
>> Warwickshire in England, whereas my own research has proven that Thomas
>> Wells, the non-immigrating husband of Frances Albright, derives from
>> nearby Evesham, Worcestershire (see my article in the New England Hist.
>> Gen. Register, Vol. 146, published in 1992 for details). Normally a
>> match within 5 values of a baseline family or between baseline families
>> indicates there is a relationship between the two families or between
>> an individual and the family. In the case of these two families, their
>> respective DNA is off by a total of 8 values over 37 markers.
>>
>> Perhaps someone familiar with modern DNA test results can comment on
>> the meaning of a difference of 8 values between two families of the
>> same surname, both of whom have origins in the same part of England.
>>
WJho...@aol.com
*but* he does have some links that go a ways further
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00084581&tree=LEO
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Orson_Welles
Perhaps others would like to come contribute what they know or find.
It's a wiki anyone can edit the entry.
Will Johnson
D. Spencer Hines
Douglas can well be related to Orson Welles through other than the Welles
line -- many of us are.
See _American Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales_, Roberts and
Reitwiesner.
DSH
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2214.11698348...@rootsweb.com...
So, is Orson Welles your relative or not, Douglas?
WJho...@aol.com
pogue...@hotmail.com writes:
<< See _American Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales_, Roberts and
Reitwiesner. >>
Interesting you bring this up, because the book is online through an ancestry
subscription. I've cited it on the page I created for Orson Welles and
extracted the relevant portion showing how Orson Welles is related the Princess
Diana.
Will Johnson
D. Spencer Hines
Sumner Welles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumner_Welles
And:
H. G. Wells.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Bryn
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>And then there are:
>
>Sumner Welles.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumner_Welles
>
>And:
>
>H. G. Wells.
>
>
William Wellace ?
--
Spider, are you
crying--- or
the autumn wind.
Bashõ
Douglas Richardson
Checking online databases, it appears that Orson Welles' male line
ancestry goes back to his 3rd great-grandfather, Richard Welles, who
was born in 1734, in Hull, Yorkshire. The following two weblinks may
be helpful to you:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=glencoe&id=I6820
http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/Dobson/genealogy/famous/Welles.html
While I don't believe I'm any relation to Orson Welles' male line
ancestry, I'm definitely related to Orson Welles through his
grandmother Welles' descent from the prominent Sherman family of New
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your helpful answer. Much appreciated.
I'm puzzled about one thing, though. A friend of mine has told me
that he deviates 5 markers from his cousin with whom he shares a
common 3rd great-grandfather. He had the tests done twice to confirm
the results.
If there is 5 markers difference in only six generations, why do you
say eight markers would indicate a common ancestor 1100 years ago?
Couldn't it be much shorter time span than this such as 500 years?
Doug McDonald
Because its all probabilities. Since mutations are
normally random (in Y chromosome testing, not ALL
are random, however, as some are connected by what are called
recLOH events) one gets a wide spread of the number of mutations
for different instances of pairs of two men whose latest
common ancestor is the same distance back. A difference of
8 just has the PROBABILITY I stated for a certain time back.
Some special cases may in fact be much more recent or much older.
Doug McDonald
D. Spencer Hines
So you are descended from the same Sherman Family that produced Roger
Sherman, of Connecticut, who signed both the Declaration of Independence and
the Constitution?
["He is notable for being one of just two people to sign all three of the
following major documents, the United States Declaration of Independence,
the Articles of Confederation, and the United States Constitution. The
other was Robert Morris (merchant).]
He was also first Mayor of New Haven, Connecticut and a Professor of
Religion at Yale College. He was also a United States Senator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Sherman
The same family that produced General William Tecumseh Sherman, who was an
important Union general in our Civil
War?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman
DSH
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1169906818....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Douglas Richardson
wrote:
< Recte:
<
< Excellent, Douglas.
<
< So you are descended from the same Sherman Family that produced
Roger
< Sherman, of Connecticut, who signed both the Declaration of
Independence <and the Constitution?
Yes, sir. I am indeed. My six children actually have a second
Sherman descent through their mother's side of the family. The double
Sherman descent must explain their spirit of "independence." I'm sure
old Roger Sherman would heartily approve.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/27/2007 6:15:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
I'm puzzled about one thing, though. A friend of mine has told me
that he deviates 5 markers from his cousin with whom he shares a
common 3rd great-grandfather. He had the tests done twice to confirm
the results.
If there is 5 markers difference in only six generations
Non-paternal event. Great-aunts are horrified.
Will
D. Spencer Hines
You and the children's mother both descend from Roger Sherman himself?
DSH
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1169919869.7...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Douglas Richardson
tested twice, it's still possible the lab made an error.
I differ from a distant Richardson cousin by one value over 12
markers. I was told by a friend that that particular marker is a
"fast moving" marker. Perhaps Doug McDonald can explain that. Are
there markers which change rapidly, and others that change slowly?
I'd like to know. And, how does that affect the probabilities of
kinship that Doug has discussed? If fast or slow moving markers are
involved, it seems to me that they would skew any probability
estimates. It wouldn't negate them, but it would mean there would
need to be a much wider range allowed for deviations between two
people, both shorter and longer.
DR
On Jan 27, 11:03 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/27/2007 6:15:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>
> royalances...@msn.com writes:I'm puzzled about one thing, though. A friend of mine has told me
Douglas Richardson
My children's mother and I descend from different cousins of Roger
Sherman, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. We do not descend
from Roger Sherman himself.
The Shermans are an old New England family, like the Richardson
family. Good stock.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Jan 27, 11:15 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Good Show, Douglas!
>
> You and the children's mother both descend from Roger Sherman himself?
>
> DSH
>
> "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote in messagenews:1169919869.7...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Mostly Stalwarts.
DSH
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1169930837.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Doug McDonald
> I differ from a distant Richardson cousin by one value over 12
> markers. I was told by a friend that that particular marker is a
> "fast moving" marker. Perhaps Doug McDonald can explain that. Are
> there markers which change rapidly, and others that change slowly?
> I'd like to know.
yes, indeed
The slowest markers have a probability of changing only once
in 2000 births, the fastest, perhaps once in 50 births.
>And, how does that affect the probabilities of
> kinship that Doug has discussed? If fast or slow moving markers are
> involved, it seems to me that they would skew any probability
> estimates. It wouldn't negate them, but it would mean there would
> need to be a much wider range allowed for deviations between two
> people, both shorter and longer.
>
It depends on the question you ask. If you ask "I have two men
and have no idea when their common ancestor lived, what does the DNA
say" then only the average rate and number of differences matters.
If you have 9 men tested, four known to be descendants
of man A who lived 500 years ago, and four known to
be descendants of man B who lived at the same time, then
the mutation rate of the markers which are different
DOES matter. You simply add up the mutation rates of the markers
which differ between the 9th person and each of the 4 descendants
of man A, and do the same for the 9th person and the descendants
for man B. The ratio of the two numbers is the ratio
of probabilities. This works even if you ask about three people "what is
the probability that man C is more closely related to man
A or man B" but the reliability is much smaller.
Doug McDonald