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Robert fitzRalph of Hastings
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janette...@talk21.com
Mar 16, 2017, 5:34:52 PM3/16/17
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Dear List,
Before I do a Prospero and burn all my books, I want to float some thoughts. I hope that someone will be interested enough to pick up on the threads and take them further than I have been able to.
Firstly, I hope I can suggest to your satisfaction that the entry below for two Roberts of Hastings from Mediaeval Lands could be amalgamated.
2.ROBERT FitzRalph de Hastings(-after 1086).“Appropriations of the King[‘s land] in Essex” in Domesday Book includes “in Colchester...a certain church of St. Peter...of the king’s alms” of which “Robert fitzRalph of Hastings claims 3 parts and Eudo the steward holds the fourth”. It is not known whether Robert’s father was Ralph de Hastings who is named above.
3.ROBERT de Hastings Domesday Book records Rye “land of the Church of Fecamp, in Guestling Hundred” in Essex, held by “the Abbot of Fecamp”, in which manor “Robert de Hastings” held land of the abbot m ---. The name of Robert’s wife is not known. Robert & his wife had one child:
a)WILLIAM de Hastings(-after 1131). The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Wills fil Robti de Hasting" in Sussex in respect of "de Lestagio de Hasting et de Ria". The reference to his father suggests that William may only recently have inherited the property.m JULIANA, daughter of JOHN FitzWaleran & his wife ---.The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Juliana uxor Willi de Hasting" in Essex "de veti aux militu de fedo Waleri Avi sui".
RRAN1821 [1128-31]Westminster
Precept by Henry 1 to G[ilbert] Bp of London and Hamo St Clare and all the burgesses of Colchester: That the Canons of [SS Julian and Botolph] Colchester hold the lands and churches which W[illiam] de Hastings gave them at Colchester well and honourably with all the liberties with which any one ever held them. Witness G. de Clinton
None of the other claimants to the Hastings name held lands or churches in Colchester, only Robert fitzRalph de Hastings; therefore, Robert father of William de Hastings can be equated with Robert fitzRalph de Hastings.
Robert son of Ralph of Hastings appears in official capacity as the addressee in four charters of Henry 1:
RRAN 619, to Rembert and Robert of Hastings [1107, 1109 or 1115, Westminster dates; the Regesta suggests 1102, but the petitioner was Abbot Ralph, 1107-24]
RRAN 752 Raibert de Hastings and Robert filio Radulfi [1106, Marlborough];
RRAN 859, to Henry Count of Eu and R the son of R de Hastings [1102-7, Westminster]
RRAN1670 to R. son of R. de Hastings, and D. de Pevensel
He is also listed as a witness to a charter at Vaudreuil, dated as ?1128 [RRAN 1550]
The suggestion that William had only recently inherited in 1130 seems quite probable. He appears as William de Hastings as witness to two charters [RRAN 1689, 1690] from Rouen, dated 1131 Feb? concerning Fecamp abbey, overlords of Robert de Hastings' holding in the manor of Rameslie [Rye], along with other local Sussex lords, Anselm de Freauville, Geoffrey de Courville, W. de Saint-Martin and G. de Saint-Leger.
The Henry 1's confirmation of the gift, with a last proposed date of 1131, may be seen as either exactly contemporaneous with the grant, or a hurried confirmation of a recent grant following the death of the grantor. Mediaeval Lands shows 'after 1131' for William's death, but it may have been that very year. There is no sign of him in later charters, and I can't help feeling that it may have been a sudden, and for the Hastings of Sussex family, disastrous death.
It is noticeable that the inheritance that went to the Monceux family through William's wife Juliana daughter of John fitz Waleran does not appear to include any holdings that might have been William's patrimony; conversely, I am not sure that the Sussex Hastings inherited anything from John fitz Waleran as Andrew Lancaster reports in his magisterial work on the Hastings families of the 12th century. The next appearance of a fee-holding Hastings in Sussex is Robert son of Harald of Hastings, who spends three years scrabbling to find £20, pledged by Simon de Criol in 1158; he pays £15 in 1159, and the final 100s in 1160.[Pipe Rolls] Simon de Criol is hardly likely to have funded an illegitimate claim, so the inference is that Robert was the heir to William.
1158–1162. Robert de Hastingues witnessed a charter of Henry 11 at Foucarmont with his wife Isabel, her mother Avelina and Thomas and Reinald de St Leger, sons of William; Avelina was probably the wife of their brother William. Robert is shown in Red Book of the Exchequer in 1166 on the carta of John Count of Eu as 'Robertus de Hastinges, dimidium militem' [of the old feoffment]
It may be that as with all the other claimants to the Hastings name, he came to it through the marriage of a Hastings daughter. They really don't seem to have been very lucky with producing male offspring - all that riding around in hot sweaty armour, probably.
DB shows that the holder TRE of Cortesley, the large manor on the sea edge east of the Norman town of Hastings [location number two, as longshore drift had driven the settlement east from Bulverhythe to the Priory valley, whence it would later remove again eastwards to the Bourne valley, the present 'Hastings Old Town'] was one Godwin, who continued to hold under the St Leger overlordship in 1086. It is not too far a stretch to suggest that Godwin married a daughter of Robert, and called his son Harald. Also possible, however, is that Robert married a daughter of Godwin; perhaps Reinbert married another?
An undated charter may be of Robert son of Ralf de Hastings, disposing in despair of a last daughter -
ABBEY OF ST. AMAND, ROUEN, FOR BENEDICTINE NUNS
[N. D.](Cartulary, fo. 9.)
89. Charter of Robert son of Ralf. He gives to St. Amand his daughter Eremborc and, with her, the whole tithe of Godetone (?),—that is of land, of beasts, of cheeses, and all things tithed,—and of Werre and of Nordie; and at Hastingues two thousand herrings (harens).
Hiis testibus: Ricardo de Bretevilla; Ricardo filio Walicherii, et Rainberto cognato meo.
This was obviously someone with the clout to donate 2000 herrings [!] who was related to someone called Reinbert; which raises the fascinating idea that there were family connections between the Hastings family and Reinbert, which makes the claim to stewardship of the Rape brought by Robert de Hastings [grandson of Robert son of Harald, and son of William de Hastings and Ida de Eu] against Simon de Echingham at the turn of the century the more easily understood.
Robert's brother Manasseh de Hastings [see Bracton's Notebook] held Grange, otherwise Grench, or Greneth, in Gillingham, Kent, which was a limb of Hastings until the mid 20th century, until his death c1215; after an interval when a scion of the Longspee family held it, a [possibly] later Robert de Hastings gained possession and sold a caracute of land in Were at Grange to Fecamp abbey in 1226.
The Hastings family certainly had a later interest in Northeye, which may have dated back to a relationship through Ida de Eu with Ingelram of Eu or of Hastings, the holder DB.
Godetone is the puzzle – the most likely is Goddington, in Kent, which was held by Simon de Chelsfield from the holdings of Ernulf de Hesdin. I have been unable to formulate a satisfactory sequence of holdings to make a positive statement on this, as the interaction of the families of Hastings Rape and those of Kent was considerable.
However, I am intrigued by Bractons Notebook Easter 1222 AR6 page 140-142 which reports an action of John fitz Alan quoting the grant of Keevil of his ancestor Ernulf de Hasting. There is also somewhere [I am doing this without notes, as if you have read my earlier posts, you will know that they have gone with the recycling] a reference to the same Shaftesbury nunnery, who were holding Combe in Hants of Ralf de Hastings of the grant of his ancestor, Ernulf de Hasting. Raldulf de Hasting appears in the Pipe Roll for 4HenIII [1158] holding in Hampshire.
I wonder if anyone else has pondered this – is it just scribal error? Can Ralf de Hastings be linked to any other family?
It has often seemed to me that there was a distinct kudos in adopting the Hastings name; it is noticeable that the references to ' de Hastings' as applied to the various other families, only started after there was a gaping hole in the indiginous line left by the death of William son of Robert in 1131. Why was it such a major name? They certainly didn't get any lastage from Hastings as that was lost with William's death. How could Ernulf be both de Hesdin and de Hasting? Or was the Ralf de Hastings in Wiltshire de Hesdin all along, more scribal error? And how is Goddington connected at this early date with Hastings?
Other families in Hastings who seem to have familial links with the line of Robert son of Ralf who were regular witnesses and otherwise active were Alan of Hastings, his son Alan the younger, and Edmund son of the second Alan, who bought some land in Snailham [by Guestling] from William of Elding [Yalding] William de Bec [of Livingsbourne/Bekesbourne]and Dering de Northwood: he married Petronilla and bought some land in Pevensey Marsh near Eastbourne; and Urban of Hastings with sons William and John, whose grandson William son of William had possession of Hollington for some time. This makes distinguishing Williams de Hastings in Sussex in the 13th century very difficult, as the armigerous family is designated as 'of Hollington'.
There wasn't really a secondly or thirdly, but lastly, on the subject of Ralf de Hastings DB. It seems that he in fact had two holdings in Ardleigh Essex, of Roger de Raimes. For the larger one, of 30 acres he is named as Ralf of Hastings, but further down is the mention that ' In Ardleigh Roger holds in demesne 6 free men with 1 hide and 2 ploughs ...of this, Ralph holds 10 acres'. There is no other Ralph listed as holding of Roger, and DB convention frequently assumes the reader will make the connection to the last named holder of that Christian name. Neither of these are particularly large; perhaps that is why there has been such coyness at taking the face-value nomenclature and considering that Robert fitzRalf of Hastings is the son of this Ralf de Hastings.
Perhaps more work on the under-researched Sussex Hastings,who did not go on to a greatness beyond Sheriff of Sussex, and who cannot currently be proved to be the ancestors of any New World Immigrants [or indeed anyone at all] would start to unravel the earliest progenitors of all the branches.
Best regards,
Janette
Just for fun, a few interesting charters:
1. Identity cards
C. 6965. Grant by John Moyn to Robert de Wylesham, for 40s. beforehand, of all the land which Robert de Wylesham, father of the said Robert, held in villeinage of John Moyn, his father, in Wylesham in the parish of Esburnham, but without power of assignment to a house of religion or to Jews; rent, 14s., for all service save the king's and the earl's foreign service, and save suit of court four times a year, at Wylting, on reasonable summons, and other incidents. Witnesses:—Simon St. Leger (de Sancto Leodegario), Simon de Somery, and others (named).
Endorsed: Kepe this dede very closeley for this is a dede that doe shoe that the landes that is in Asheborneham is halde in knight sarves and ward and marridg and let it be your trustey frind that see this dead.
This Wylesham is now immortalised in Wilson's Cross, near Ashburnham, so he obviously kept his identity papers very carefully, as instructed.
The following from Robertsbridge Abbey charters
2. Equity Exchange - how to get a pension and still live in your house [they called a corrody]
194 The Abbey of Robertsbridge and Stephen de Barmlinge and Mabel his wife. Concord by which Stephen and Mabel grant to the Abbey all the land of Walilande and 7 acres of meadow next Bodiham bridge, subject to the yearly rent of 20s. during their joint lives ; and after the death of either of them, if Stephen survives he is to receive nothing, but if Mabel survives, she is to receive 1os. a year for clothes, a daily allowance of a loaf and gallon of beer for herself, and 3 loaves of common bread and 1gallon of small beer for her maid, and every year 3 fat hogs of the value of 2s. each, 3 carcases of mutton of 8d. each, half a ' pondus' of cheese, 500 herrings, half an ambra of salt, half a bushel of oatmeal, 2 bushels of beans, 10 wagon loads of wood, 2 wagon loads of straw, a pair of felted boots in winter and a pair not felted in summer. — Witnesses : William de Sokenesse, Robert de Glottingham, Robert de Sedelecombe, Alan of Robertsbridge, William Long, Henry de Thirhs.
Stephen and Mabel sold off more land for an annuity of 20s for Mabel if she were widowed; Mabel did survive, and went on to sell off more of her land in return for yearly service of 12d and later a rent of 3d and a consideration of 5s. She must have been relatively comfortable.
3.English Slave Trade -someone ought to organise a protest on behalf of their ancestor!
188 Henry de Padiham to the Abbey.
Sale of Gilbert son of Robert le Cohere of Yweherste with all his belongings and chattels for 8s sterling. — Witnesses: Joel de St: German, William de Soken:, Robert Gloting:, Robert de Setelescumbe, Michael de Beche, John de Setelesc:, Thomas de Wygeselle, Daniel de Kichenh:, Alan of Robertsbridge, Ralph de Feme, Adam de Cobeford, Robert de Cobeford.
4. I have not embezzled the funds!
108 Thomas de Nordhi.
Declaration that he received the seal of Lord William de St. Martin, his brother, in his sickness ; and lest any one should entertain suspicions in consequence, he protests that no improper use has been made of it, especially against the abbat of Robertsbridge ; and he has returned it under the seals of the abbat and himself, in the presence of Lord William, his brother, and Lord Laurence de
Mundifeld.
Before I do a Prospero and burn all my books, I want to float some thoughts. I hope that someone will be interested enough to pick up on the threads and take them further than I have been able to.
Firstly, I hope I can suggest to your satisfaction that the entry below for two Roberts of Hastings from Mediaeval Lands could be amalgamated.
2.ROBERT FitzRalph de Hastings(-after 1086).“Appropriations of the King[‘s land] in Essex” in Domesday Book includes “in Colchester...a certain church of St. Peter...of the king’s alms” of which “Robert fitzRalph of Hastings claims 3 parts and Eudo the steward holds the fourth”. It is not known whether Robert’s father was Ralph de Hastings who is named above.
3.ROBERT de Hastings Domesday Book records Rye “land of the Church of Fecamp, in Guestling Hundred” in Essex, held by “the Abbot of Fecamp”, in which manor “Robert de Hastings” held land of the abbot m ---. The name of Robert’s wife is not known. Robert & his wife had one child:
a)WILLIAM de Hastings(-after 1131). The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Wills fil Robti de Hasting" in Sussex in respect of "de Lestagio de Hasting et de Ria". The reference to his father suggests that William may only recently have inherited the property.m JULIANA, daughter of JOHN FitzWaleran & his wife ---.The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Juliana uxor Willi de Hasting" in Essex "de veti aux militu de fedo Waleri Avi sui".
RRAN1821 [1128-31]Westminster
Precept by Henry 1 to G[ilbert] Bp of London and Hamo St Clare and all the burgesses of Colchester: That the Canons of [SS Julian and Botolph] Colchester hold the lands and churches which W[illiam] de Hastings gave them at Colchester well and honourably with all the liberties with which any one ever held them. Witness G. de Clinton
None of the other claimants to the Hastings name held lands or churches in Colchester, only Robert fitzRalph de Hastings; therefore, Robert father of William de Hastings can be equated with Robert fitzRalph de Hastings.
Robert son of Ralph of Hastings appears in official capacity as the addressee in four charters of Henry 1:
RRAN 619, to Rembert and Robert of Hastings [1107, 1109 or 1115, Westminster dates; the Regesta suggests 1102, but the petitioner was Abbot Ralph, 1107-24]
RRAN 752 Raibert de Hastings and Robert filio Radulfi [1106, Marlborough];
RRAN 859, to Henry Count of Eu and R the son of R de Hastings [1102-7, Westminster]
RRAN1670 to R. son of R. de Hastings, and D. de Pevensel
He is also listed as a witness to a charter at Vaudreuil, dated as ?1128 [RRAN 1550]
The suggestion that William had only recently inherited in 1130 seems quite probable. He appears as William de Hastings as witness to two charters [RRAN 1689, 1690] from Rouen, dated 1131 Feb? concerning Fecamp abbey, overlords of Robert de Hastings' holding in the manor of Rameslie [Rye], along with other local Sussex lords, Anselm de Freauville, Geoffrey de Courville, W. de Saint-Martin and G. de Saint-Leger.
The Henry 1's confirmation of the gift, with a last proposed date of 1131, may be seen as either exactly contemporaneous with the grant, or a hurried confirmation of a recent grant following the death of the grantor. Mediaeval Lands shows 'after 1131' for William's death, but it may have been that very year. There is no sign of him in later charters, and I can't help feeling that it may have been a sudden, and for the Hastings of Sussex family, disastrous death.
It is noticeable that the inheritance that went to the Monceux family through William's wife Juliana daughter of John fitz Waleran does not appear to include any holdings that might have been William's patrimony; conversely, I am not sure that the Sussex Hastings inherited anything from John fitz Waleran as Andrew Lancaster reports in his magisterial work on the Hastings families of the 12th century. The next appearance of a fee-holding Hastings in Sussex is Robert son of Harald of Hastings, who spends three years scrabbling to find £20, pledged by Simon de Criol in 1158; he pays £15 in 1159, and the final 100s in 1160.[Pipe Rolls] Simon de Criol is hardly likely to have funded an illegitimate claim, so the inference is that Robert was the heir to William.
1158–1162. Robert de Hastingues witnessed a charter of Henry 11 at Foucarmont with his wife Isabel, her mother Avelina and Thomas and Reinald de St Leger, sons of William; Avelina was probably the wife of their brother William. Robert is shown in Red Book of the Exchequer in 1166 on the carta of John Count of Eu as 'Robertus de Hastinges, dimidium militem' [of the old feoffment]
It may be that as with all the other claimants to the Hastings name, he came to it through the marriage of a Hastings daughter. They really don't seem to have been very lucky with producing male offspring - all that riding around in hot sweaty armour, probably.
DB shows that the holder TRE of Cortesley, the large manor on the sea edge east of the Norman town of Hastings [location number two, as longshore drift had driven the settlement east from Bulverhythe to the Priory valley, whence it would later remove again eastwards to the Bourne valley, the present 'Hastings Old Town'] was one Godwin, who continued to hold under the St Leger overlordship in 1086. It is not too far a stretch to suggest that Godwin married a daughter of Robert, and called his son Harald. Also possible, however, is that Robert married a daughter of Godwin; perhaps Reinbert married another?
An undated charter may be of Robert son of Ralf de Hastings, disposing in despair of a last daughter -
ABBEY OF ST. AMAND, ROUEN, FOR BENEDICTINE NUNS
[N. D.](Cartulary, fo. 9.)
89. Charter of Robert son of Ralf. He gives to St. Amand his daughter Eremborc and, with her, the whole tithe of Godetone (?),—that is of land, of beasts, of cheeses, and all things tithed,—and of Werre and of Nordie; and at Hastingues two thousand herrings (harens).
Hiis testibus: Ricardo de Bretevilla; Ricardo filio Walicherii, et Rainberto cognato meo.
This was obviously someone with the clout to donate 2000 herrings [!] who was related to someone called Reinbert; which raises the fascinating idea that there were family connections between the Hastings family and Reinbert, which makes the claim to stewardship of the Rape brought by Robert de Hastings [grandson of Robert son of Harald, and son of William de Hastings and Ida de Eu] against Simon de Echingham at the turn of the century the more easily understood.
Robert's brother Manasseh de Hastings [see Bracton's Notebook] held Grange, otherwise Grench, or Greneth, in Gillingham, Kent, which was a limb of Hastings until the mid 20th century, until his death c1215; after an interval when a scion of the Longspee family held it, a [possibly] later Robert de Hastings gained possession and sold a caracute of land in Were at Grange to Fecamp abbey in 1226.
The Hastings family certainly had a later interest in Northeye, which may have dated back to a relationship through Ida de Eu with Ingelram of Eu or of Hastings, the holder DB.
Godetone is the puzzle – the most likely is Goddington, in Kent, which was held by Simon de Chelsfield from the holdings of Ernulf de Hesdin. I have been unable to formulate a satisfactory sequence of holdings to make a positive statement on this, as the interaction of the families of Hastings Rape and those of Kent was considerable.
However, I am intrigued by Bractons Notebook Easter 1222 AR6 page 140-142 which reports an action of John fitz Alan quoting the grant of Keevil of his ancestor Ernulf de Hasting. There is also somewhere [I am doing this without notes, as if you have read my earlier posts, you will know that they have gone with the recycling] a reference to the same Shaftesbury nunnery, who were holding Combe in Hants of Ralf de Hastings of the grant of his ancestor, Ernulf de Hasting. Raldulf de Hasting appears in the Pipe Roll for 4HenIII [1158] holding in Hampshire.
I wonder if anyone else has pondered this – is it just scribal error? Can Ralf de Hastings be linked to any other family?
It has often seemed to me that there was a distinct kudos in adopting the Hastings name; it is noticeable that the references to ' de Hastings' as applied to the various other families, only started after there was a gaping hole in the indiginous line left by the death of William son of Robert in 1131. Why was it such a major name? They certainly didn't get any lastage from Hastings as that was lost with William's death. How could Ernulf be both de Hesdin and de Hasting? Or was the Ralf de Hastings in Wiltshire de Hesdin all along, more scribal error? And how is Goddington connected at this early date with Hastings?
Other families in Hastings who seem to have familial links with the line of Robert son of Ralf who were regular witnesses and otherwise active were Alan of Hastings, his son Alan the younger, and Edmund son of the second Alan, who bought some land in Snailham [by Guestling] from William of Elding [Yalding] William de Bec [of Livingsbourne/Bekesbourne]and Dering de Northwood: he married Petronilla and bought some land in Pevensey Marsh near Eastbourne; and Urban of Hastings with sons William and John, whose grandson William son of William had possession of Hollington for some time. This makes distinguishing Williams de Hastings in Sussex in the 13th century very difficult, as the armigerous family is designated as 'of Hollington'.
There wasn't really a secondly or thirdly, but lastly, on the subject of Ralf de Hastings DB. It seems that he in fact had two holdings in Ardleigh Essex, of Roger de Raimes. For the larger one, of 30 acres he is named as Ralf of Hastings, but further down is the mention that ' In Ardleigh Roger holds in demesne 6 free men with 1 hide and 2 ploughs ...of this, Ralph holds 10 acres'. There is no other Ralph listed as holding of Roger, and DB convention frequently assumes the reader will make the connection to the last named holder of that Christian name. Neither of these are particularly large; perhaps that is why there has been such coyness at taking the face-value nomenclature and considering that Robert fitzRalf of Hastings is the son of this Ralf de Hastings.
Perhaps more work on the under-researched Sussex Hastings,who did not go on to a greatness beyond Sheriff of Sussex, and who cannot currently be proved to be the ancestors of any New World Immigrants [or indeed anyone at all] would start to unravel the earliest progenitors of all the branches.
Best regards,
Janette
Just for fun, a few interesting charters:
1. Identity cards
C. 6965. Grant by John Moyn to Robert de Wylesham, for 40s. beforehand, of all the land which Robert de Wylesham, father of the said Robert, held in villeinage of John Moyn, his father, in Wylesham in the parish of Esburnham, but without power of assignment to a house of religion or to Jews; rent, 14s., for all service save the king's and the earl's foreign service, and save suit of court four times a year, at Wylting, on reasonable summons, and other incidents. Witnesses:—Simon St. Leger (de Sancto Leodegario), Simon de Somery, and others (named).
Endorsed: Kepe this dede very closeley for this is a dede that doe shoe that the landes that is in Asheborneham is halde in knight sarves and ward and marridg and let it be your trustey frind that see this dead.
This Wylesham is now immortalised in Wilson's Cross, near Ashburnham, so he obviously kept his identity papers very carefully, as instructed.
The following from Robertsbridge Abbey charters
2. Equity Exchange - how to get a pension and still live in your house [they called a corrody]
194 The Abbey of Robertsbridge and Stephen de Barmlinge and Mabel his wife. Concord by which Stephen and Mabel grant to the Abbey all the land of Walilande and 7 acres of meadow next Bodiham bridge, subject to the yearly rent of 20s. during their joint lives ; and after the death of either of them, if Stephen survives he is to receive nothing, but if Mabel survives, she is to receive 1os. a year for clothes, a daily allowance of a loaf and gallon of beer for herself, and 3 loaves of common bread and 1gallon of small beer for her maid, and every year 3 fat hogs of the value of 2s. each, 3 carcases of mutton of 8d. each, half a ' pondus' of cheese, 500 herrings, half an ambra of salt, half a bushel of oatmeal, 2 bushels of beans, 10 wagon loads of wood, 2 wagon loads of straw, a pair of felted boots in winter and a pair not felted in summer. — Witnesses : William de Sokenesse, Robert de Glottingham, Robert de Sedelecombe, Alan of Robertsbridge, William Long, Henry de Thirhs.
Stephen and Mabel sold off more land for an annuity of 20s for Mabel if she were widowed; Mabel did survive, and went on to sell off more of her land in return for yearly service of 12d and later a rent of 3d and a consideration of 5s. She must have been relatively comfortable.
3.English Slave Trade -someone ought to organise a protest on behalf of their ancestor!
188 Henry de Padiham to the Abbey.
Sale of Gilbert son of Robert le Cohere of Yweherste with all his belongings and chattels for 8s sterling. — Witnesses: Joel de St: German, William de Soken:, Robert Gloting:, Robert de Setelescumbe, Michael de Beche, John de Setelesc:, Thomas de Wygeselle, Daniel de Kichenh:, Alan of Robertsbridge, Ralph de Feme, Adam de Cobeford, Robert de Cobeford.
4. I have not embezzled the funds!
108 Thomas de Nordhi.
Declaration that he received the seal of Lord William de St. Martin, his brother, in his sickness ; and lest any one should entertain suspicions in consequence, he protests that no improper use has been made of it, especially against the abbat of Robertsbridge ; and he has returned it under the seals of the abbat and himself, in the presence of Lord William, his brother, and Lord Laurence de
Mundifeld.
Patricia A. Junkin
Mar 16, 2017, 6:08:47 PM3/16/17
to janette...@talk21.com, GenMedieval
Perhaps a clue here:
Quitclaim 1273
Simon de Chelesfeud, son and heir of Simon de Chelesfeud, knight to Edmund, Master of Strood
Hospital:
20s. 3d. annual rent from his tenement at Chelesfeud in Strood as is contained in a charter of Master
Hugh de Mortuomare [cf. Mortuo Mari] which Hugh had from him by feoffment. Simon has right,
authority and power of sale which John, perpetual chaplain of Freckenham [Suffolk] chapel
sold to the Master and brethren of Strood Hospital. (1lb. cumin. fi.. 40s.)
Witnesses: Sir Ralph de Hevere [cf. Hever], Walter, de la Mare, Thomas de Tudeham, Richard Blundel,
Geoffrey de Mareys, John Lenold, Simon, clerk of Shoreham, Bartholomew de Langefeud, reeve,
Gilbert Pel, John de la Lane, Peter de Poleye, John de Esse, chaplain.
Endorsements: 1. Scriptum et Quieta clamacio Simonis filii et heredis domini Simonis de Chellefeld
Militis [13th century] 2. Strode [i.e. Strood] [Martin Cotes, Rochester Chapter Clerk 1574-1605]
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Quitclaim 1273
Simon de Chelesfeud, son and heir of Simon de Chelesfeud, knight to Edmund, Master of Strood
Hospital:
20s. 3d. annual rent from his tenement at Chelesfeud in Strood as is contained in a charter of Master
Hugh de Mortuomare [cf. Mortuo Mari] which Hugh had from him by feoffment. Simon has right,
authority and power of sale which John, perpetual chaplain of Freckenham [Suffolk] chapel
sold to the Master and brethren of Strood Hospital. (1lb. cumin. fi.. 40s.)
Witnesses: Sir Ralph de Hevere [cf. Hever], Walter, de la Mare, Thomas de Tudeham, Richard Blundel,
Geoffrey de Mareys, John Lenold, Simon, clerk of Shoreham, Bartholomew de Langefeud, reeve,
Gilbert Pel, John de la Lane, Peter de Poleye, John de Esse, chaplain.
Endorsements: 1. Scriptum et Quieta clamacio Simonis filii et heredis domini Simonis de Chellefeld
Militis [13th century] 2. Strode [i.e. Strood] [Martin Cotes, Rochester Chapter Clerk 1574-1605]
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
janette...@talk21.com
Mar 16, 2017, 6:31:33 PM3/16/17
to
But thank you for the post
Janette
Tahiri
Mar 19, 2017, 5:53:14 AM3/19/17
to
>Godetone is the puzzle - the most likely is Goddington, in Kent,
I am no expert but would have thought Godstone (in Surrey) would be an
obvious contender.
I am no expert but would have thought Godstone (in Surrey) would be an
obvious contender.
janette...@talk21.com
Mar 19, 2017, 8:37:57 AM3/19/17
to
Godstone Surrey was still called Walknestede or variations at the time, I believe. It was Godeston by 1248, Coddeston 1279, Coddestone 1288 [Consise Oxford Dictionary of Place Names, Ekwall 4th Ed 1960]- all forms have the 's' in them.
I considered Gotham, near Bexhill as an obvious possibility, but the forms listed in The Place Names of Sussex [English Place Names Society Vol VII, Mawer and Stenton 1930] always end in 'ham' - Gothm 1430, Goteham 1507 etc; it is posited that it was the home of John de Gotecumbe, who was a witness to many Battle charters in the 13th century; with a lack of earlier forms, that is even farther from 'Godetone'.
Goddington, Kent, on the other hand was Godinton in 1190 [as distinct from Godington, Oxford, which was Godendone DB 1208, Godindon 1208].
I agree, it is not a perfect match, but there are local connections. While the holding of Ernulf de Hesdin that I reported stands good, on rereading for this reply I feel I have conflated Simon de Chelsfield with his tenant Simon de Goddington, for which I apologise; but the connection with the area is sound.
Battle Abbey Grants and Deeds
p 15 SIMON DE ECHINGHAM, for the health of his soul, &c., Feofment to the Church of S. Martin, at Battle, of the twelve Flemish Acres of Land in the Marsh, held of William de Echingham, his father, by Simon de Godintun, and by him, in pure and perpetual Alms, given to the Monks of Battle. Attested by William de Echingham, his brother ; Laurence de Mundifelde, Richard de Wetlingetun, William de Haremere, Reginalde de Beche, Matthew Portatorio de Bello, &c.
p 18 STEPHEN DE GODINTUN, son and heir of SIMON DE GODINTUN, Knight, Feofment, in confirmation of the Grant that he and his father made for the health of their souls, to the Church and Monks of the Abbey of S. Martin, of twelve Flemish Acres of Marsh Land, which Simon, his father, held of William de Echingham, father of Simon de Echingham. Simon de Echingham, William, his brother, Gilbert de Faleise, Mathew Portatorio, and other Testators.
Four of these acres, it is said, were held of the said Simon de Godintun by " Constantia femina Petri Muissun."
p48 BARTHOLOMEW, son of TRISTRAM, Feofment to the Abbot and Convent, of Land lying in a Close under Gadeberghe, in the Fee of Simon de Godinton. Witnesses, Walter de Beche, Rich, de Beche, Hugh de Beche, Thomas, son of Henry de Haremere, William de Whatlington, William de Dene. S. Agatha's day, i. e.Feb. 5, 1273, 1 Edward the First. Seal of Harengot, green wax.
From
'The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent: Volume 2. Originally published by W Bristow, Canterbury, 1797.':British History on line
CHELSFIELD was part of those vast possessions with which William the Conqueror enriched his half brother Odo, bp. of Baieux, and accordingly it is entered in the book of Domesday, under the general title of that prelate's lands, as follows:
¶Ernuf. de Hesding holds of the bishop (of Baieux) Ciresfel. It was taxed at 2 sulings. The arable land is In demesne there are 2 carucates, and 20 vil- leins, with 4 borderers, having 8 carucates. There are 4 servants, and I mill of 10 shillings, and 10 acres of meadow, and wood for the pannage of 10 hogs. In the time of king Edward the Confessor it was worth 16 pounds, and afterwards 12 pounds, and now 25 pounds; and yet be who holds it pays 35 pounds. Tocchi held it of king Edward.
This Ernuf de Hesding I take to be the same person who, in the Textus Rossensis, is called Arnulf de Cilesfelda, and in another part of Domesday, Esbern de Cillesfelle, wherein he is recorded to have had the liberties of sac and soc for all his lands throughout the laths of Sutton and Ailesford.
This place afforded both seat and surname to his posterity. Letitia Domina de Chilefeld is mentioned in the Chartulary of St. Radigund's abbey, near Dover, as having been a benefactor to that monastery, wherein mention is made of Simon de Chilefeld her son. He held this manor, in the reign of Edward I. as one knight's fee, and the sixth part of a fee, of Sim. de Montfort, as of the honour of Newbury.
GODDINGTON is a small manor in this parish, which was antiently one of the seats of a family of the same name, who had another mansion at Great Chart in this county. (fn. 12) Simon de Godyngton held this place in the reign of king Edward I. his descendant, William, son of John de Godyngton, paid respective aid for this manor in the 20th year of king Edward III. as one fee, which Simon de Godyngton before held in Chellesfeld, of Henry de Scoland, and he of Simon de Monteforte.
From The survey of Kent: documents relating to the survey of the county conducted in 1086 Chapter 9 Thirteenth Century baronies; p 258 Colin Swift
Around 1120, Chelsfield belonged (as it would be expected to belong) to Patric de Caources (the successor of Ernulf de Hesding, who owned it in1086). Some twenty years later, however,when a donation was made to the monks of Reading by a Chelsfield tenant, the grant was confirmed in the first place by Ernulf de Chelesfeld, in the second place by Gilebert earl of Pembroke(d.1148–9).84 If Ernulf became the earl’sman in the time of king Stephan, as appears to be the case, it is hard to see how the earl’s claim to the overlordship could be maintained. In the short run it was not: by 1166 we find Ernulf’s son, Simon de Chelesfeld, listed among the men of Patric de Caources’s grandson, Pagan de Montdublel. But eventually, somehow, the Pembroke claim was made good.
In 1242, the Marescal property in Kent was all held by Alienora’s second husband, Simon de Montfort earl of Leicester (d. 1265); it would not revert to the Marescal heirs till Alienora was dead (she died in 1275). Chelsfield, by this time, had been divided into three portions; the respective tenants all answered to the earl of Leicester.
Regards,
Janette
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