New Descent from Ela de Herdeburgh to Jane and Henry Lowe (#2)
The...@aol.com
Hello Douglas, MichaelAnne et al.,
In addition to the descent previously posted, via Ankaret le Boteler and
the Lords Le Strange, I show the following for the Lowe GARD emigrants to
Maryland:
.1. Ela de Herdeburghe = William le Boteler, Lord Le Botiller
.2. Alice le Boteler, coheiress of brother Edward = Nicholas Longford of
Longford, co. Derby, d. ca. 1356
.3. Alice Longford = William FitzHerbert, of Norbury, co. Derby [son of
William FitzHerbert and Jane Kniveton]
.4. Henry FitzHerbert of Norbury, co. Derby
.5. Nicholas FitzHerbert of Norbury, co. Derby; Sheriff of Derby 1448, 1466;
d. 19 Nov 1473 = Alice Booth, daughter of Henry Booth of Harlaston, co. Derby
and Isabella Findern
.6. John FitzHerbert, 2nd son, of Ash and Etwall; Remembrancer of the
Exchequer = Margaret Babington
.7. Barbara FitzHerbert = Sir Thomas Cokayne, of Ashbourne, co. Derby; d.
ca. 1537
.8. Jane Cokayne = Vincent Lowe
.9. Jasper Lowe, of Park-Hall and Denby, co. Derby = Dorothy Sacherevell,
daughter of William Sacherevell
10. Patrick Lowe, of Denby, co. Derby, d. ca. 1616 = Jane Harpur, daughter
of Sir John Harpur of Swarkeston, co. Derby and Isabella Pierrepont
[DESCENDANT OF RICHARD OF CORNWALL, SON OF JOHN, KING OF ENGLAND]
11. Vincent Lowe, of Denby, co. Derby, d. aft 1640 = Anne Cavendish,
illegitimate daughter of Henry Cavendish, of Tutbury, co. Stafford [Son of
'Bess of Hardwick' and DESCENDANT OF EDWARD I OF ENGLAND - PA 2nd edition]
Issue:
12 (A) John Lowe [see prior post, and PA 2nd edition]
12 (B) Jane Lowe, emigrant to Maryland; wife of 1)Henry Sewall, Secretary of
the Province of Maryland (d. bef 17 Apr 1665); 2) Charles Calvert, Governor
of Maryland, later 3rd Lord Baltimore (d. 1714)
Sources for the foregoing:
1) Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition [generations 10-12]
2) RD 500 [generations 10-12; Harpur-Pierrepont]
3) British Roots of Maryland Families, R. Barnes, 1999 [generations 6-12]
4) Burke's Landed Gentry [generations 2-7]
5) CP [generations 1-2]
6) Douglas Richardson, Rosie Bevan, MichaelAnne Guido - SGM posts re: Descent
from Ela de Herdeburghe, etc. [generations 1-2]
I am currently reviewing sources re: the Booth, Findern and Babington
ancestry indicated above.
Hope the foregoing helps.
John
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post regarding the Lowe family descent from
Ela de Herdeburgh.
Checking the Fitzherbert pedigree in the 1569 and 1611 visitation of
Derby, it shows William Fitzherbert (your Gen. 3 below) married twice,
(1st) to Joan Solney and (2nd) to Alice Longford. This source
further states it was Joan Solney who was the mother of Henry
Fitzherbert, not Alice Longford as you have it [Reference:
Genealogist, n.s., 7 (1891): 131].
If this pedigree is correct, then the Lowe family would lose their
descent from the Longford family. Do you have any particulars which
might shed some light on this problem?
Best always,
Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, UT 84106
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<7c.1c3094a...@aol.com>...
The...@aol.com
Good morning Douglas,
I would tend to weigh evaluation of generations 3-4 of my post [Alice
Longford = William FitzHerbert, then Henry FitzHerbert] more heavily toward
the evidence given in the Visitation record. As noted in my post, the sole
source I have for generations 3 through 5 is Burke's Landed Gentry.
For what it's worth [possibly a downpayment on a cup of coffee], the few
websites I find which also reflect these generations also show Alice Longford
as the mother of Henry FitzHerbert. _Orabile dictu_, the only website that
gives its sources shows ..... Burke's Landed Gentry.
That being said, and despite my own inclination to drop Burke's in favor
of the Visitation pedigree, it is certainly known that Visitation pedigrees
include a few errors (not uniformly, of course). I wonder, how sound is the
Visitation record at this generation? Given the dates of the Visitations
(1569 and 1611) and the period of the generation in question (early to mid-
14th century), the reliability of the information, and its use in compiling
the early generations of this pedigree, would need to be examined closely.
I do hope the foregoing is helpful (if limited).
John
James Trabue
If additional data is found, I would appreciate being advised. Anne Storer
of Maryland (md 1st James Trueman; 2nd Robert Skinner) also descends from
Henry Fitz-Herbert. I misplaced my source for the Fitz-Herbert lineage and
have not as yet been able to locate it. My notes show the mother of Henry
as Alice Longford.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Descent from Ela de Herdeburgh to Jane and Henry Lowe (#2)
> Hi John ~
>
> Thank you for your good post regarding the Lowe family descent from
> Ela de Herdeburgh.
>
> Checking the Fitzherbert pedigree in the 1569 and 1611 visitation of
> Derby, it shows William Fitzherbert (your Gen. 3 below) married twice,
> (1st) to Joan Solney and (2nd) to Alice Longford. This source
> further states it was Joan Solney who was the mother of Henry
> Fitzherbert, not Alice Longford as you have it [Reference:
> Genealogist, n.s., 7 (1891): 131].
>
> If this pedigree is correct, then the Lowe family would lose their
> descent from the Longford family. Do you have any particulars which
> might shed some light on this problem?
>
> Best always,
> Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, UT 84106
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<7c.1c3094a...@aol.com>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The...@aol.com wrote:
>
> That being said, and despite my own inclination to drop Burke's in
> favor of the Visitation pedigree, it is certainly known that
> Visitation pedigrees include a few errors (not uniformly, of course).
> I wonder, how sound is the Visitation record at this generation?
Personally I put Burke, Visitations and modern-ish heralds all in the
same bracket: they all rely on pedigrees produced by someone else and do
not check them against good secondary research let alone any surviving
documents of the periods mentioned.
Further I recently went through some of the CDROMs of Visitations
and was delighted to find some information about current families signed
off by the current head, reasonably believable. Then there were some
extended pedigrees going back a few centuries that had been produced by
the armiger with the recommendation that they had come from the herald's
office; these were accepted without question, it seems. Finally there
were some very dubious pedigrees that the visiting herald had accepted,
possibly as a result of the traditional gift of a couple of capons.
Burke used to just ask family for their pedigrees, preferably ones
signed off by the Herald's Office. This I found, and passed on a few
months ago, from some files of Burke's correspondence in the British
Library.
And the Heralds tend to look in their records for the last pedigree and
copy that out. I have had fun this year researching the crass and
not-so-crass errors in a pedigree they did for my father and grandfather
in the last century, charging both significant sums for information
which very simple checks would have shown to be, in part, wrong.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Rosie Bevan
To the best of my knowledge the Fitzherbert pedigree in the Derbyshire
Visitation of 1611 showing Joan Solney as first wife of William Fitzherbert
fl 22 Ric 2 (1399) is incorrect. Jane Solney, da. of Sir Alured Solney was
the second wife of William Fitzherbert fl 12 Ric 2 (1389), father of the
above, and she died without issue. This William's first wife was Jane
Kniveton of Mercaston. I regard Visitations as reasonably reliable within
three generations from when the head of the family provides the information
to the Herald, but further back from that innacuracies and omissions tend to
creep in.
The 106th (1999) ed. of Burke's Peerage and Baronetage (under Stafford)
includes a pedigree of the Fitzherberts of Norbury, which was researched by
Michael Jones in the early 19th century and S.T Fitzherbert in 1922, and is
the established version accepted by the family today. It has Alice Longford,
da. of Nicholas Longford as the sole wife of William Fitzherbert fl 1363-98.
Although that is not a convincing reason in itself to accept the pedigree,
additional circumstantial evidence is that Nicholas and Alice appear as
names of the children amongst the grandchildren of the primary line where
they had not occurred before. Also Alured is not a name which occurs in the
Fitzherbert family.
Jeayes Derbyshire Charters p 223
"Covenant whereby John Cokeyn, kt, Thomas Okeover Alvered de Longeford, esq
and Thomas Dawkyn, chaplain, agree with John de la Pole de Hertyngdon and
Henry de Bothe, esquires, that if Nicholas fil et her Henrici Fitzherbert
live til he come to full age or shall be married by the said John de la Pole
and Henry de Bothe "infra etatem" that the two latter shall pay 40 pounds to
Alice, Joan and Elizabeth, sisters of the said Nicholas, for which sum of
money the said John, Thomas, Alvered, and Thomas have granted for a term of
15 years to the said John and Henry the manor of Norbury, with the advowson
of the church and all the lands which they formerly held of the grant of
William Avener and Richard Aunger clerks; the said manor to revert at the
end of the term to the said Nicholas Fitzherbert and his heirs forever.
Witn Thomas Lymcestre, Henry Kniveton, rector of Norbury, Wm Boturdon, Wm
Lymcestre, Henry Stere.
Dat at Norbury Fr b F of St Michael [29 Sept] 4 Hen V [1416]"
Unfortunately I don't know of any contemporary evidence which confirms the
maternity of Henry Fitzherbert, but then I have not looked particularly hard
for it. Sorry I am not much help with this.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Descent from Ela de Herdeburgh to Jane and Henry Lowe (#2)
> Hi John ~
>
> Thank you for your good post regarding the Lowe family descent from
> Ela de Herdeburgh.
>
> Checking the Fitzherbert pedigree in the 1569 and 1611 visitation of
> Derby, it shows William Fitzherbert (your Gen. 3 below) married twice,
> (1st) to Joan Solney and (2nd) to Alice Longford. This source
> further states it was Joan Solney who was the mother of Henry
> Fitzherbert, not Alice Longford as you have it [Reference:
> Genealogist, n.s., 7 (1891): 131].
>
> If this pedigree is correct, then the Lowe family would lose their
> descent from the Longford family. Do you have any particulars which
> might shed some light on this problem?
>
> Best always,
> Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, UT 84106
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<7c.1c3094a...@aol.com>...