Another C.P. Correction: Elizabeth, wife of Sir Robert Southwell & Sir Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Cobham
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 347 (sub Cobham) has a good account of the
life history of Sir Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham, who died in
1529. Regarding his second marriage, the following information is
provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Dorothy Southwell, widow, who died d.s.p."
No sources whatsoever are provided for this statement.
In truth, Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Cobham, married (2nd) before 1518
Elizabeth _____, widow of Robert Southwell, Knt. (died 31 March 1513),
of Kelvedon, Essex, Chief Butler of England, which marriage is proven
by the following record found in the helpful online National Archives
catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp):
Chancery Proceedings, C 1/452/8
Record Summary
Scope and content
Christopher Urswyk, LL.D., and others, executors of Robert Southwell,
knight. v. Thomas Broke, lord Cobham, late the husband of Elizabeth,
formerly the wife of the said Robert.: Detention of deeds relating to
the estate of the said Robert.
Covering dates 1515-1518.
Sir Robert Southwell, whose widow, Elizabeth, married Sir Thomas
Brooke, Lord Cobham, may be readily identified as the man of that name
who was Chief Butler of England and Surveyor and Approver of Castles.
This is indicated by information found in the book, Records of the
Family of Urswyk, Urswick, Or Urwick (1893): 109-110, which may be
viewed at the following weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jS8ZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA110&dq=Urswyk+Southwell#PPA109,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=jS8ZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA110&dq=Urswyk+Southwell#PPA110,M1
This material shows that Sir Robert Southwell was survived by a widow,
Elizabeth, who was appointed executrix of his will, along with several
other individuals appointed as co-executors, including Christopher
Urswick, Archdeacon of Oxford. On 29 May 1514 the king granted a
royal pardon and release to the widow and her co-executors.
Christopher Urswick, Archdeacon of Oxford, is elsewhere named as one
of the executors of the will of Sir Robert Robert Southwell, Chief
Butler of England, in the book, Fellows of the Collegiate Church of
Manchester, Pt. 1 (Chetham Soc. n.s. 21) (1891): 27, which source may
be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_yYNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA27&dq=Urswick+Southwell
Sir Robert Southwell is mentioned in passing in helpful Dictionary of
National Biography, 18 (1909): 700 (biog. of Sir Richard Southwell).
http://books.google.com/books?id=migJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA292&dq=Southwell+Butler+England&lr=
Further information regarding Sir Robert Southwell may be found in
Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, n.s. 1 (1874): 445. This
material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XCQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA445&dq=Urswick+Southwell&lr=
According to the tudorplace.com genealogical website, Sir Robert
Southwell died 31 March 1513. No mention is made in that source of
his surviving wife, Elizabeth, or of her remarriage to Sir Thomas
Brooke, Lord Cobham. This Southwell information may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/SOUTHWELL.htm#Robert%20SOUTHWELL%20of%20Barham%20(Esq.)
The Tudor Place website correctly shows that Sir Robert Southwell was
previously married to Ursula Bohun, daughter and co-heiress of John
Bohun, which Ursula was living 26 April 1494, but who died sometime
before 10 May 1513. This prior marriage of Sir Robert Southwell is
proven by records found in the Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds,
1 (1890): 75-76, which information is available at the following
weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=l94rAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=Southwell+Kelvedon&source=web&ots=qwz3fFAIaq&sig=o9gGwUa88M3VfwKnxpAXlRTRULo&hl=en#PPA75,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=l94rAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=Southwell+Kelvedon&source=web&ots=qwz3fFAIaq&sig=o9gGwUa88M3VfwKnxpAXlRTRULo&hl=en
As a matter of historical interest, It should be noted that Ursula
Bohun's sister and co-heiress, Mary Bohun, was the wife of Sir David
Owen, Knt., of Midhurst, Sussex, the illegitimate son of Jasper Tudor,
which Sir David Owen was thus the paternal uncle of King Henry VII of
England.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
jhigg...@yahoo.com
>
> This material shows that Sir Robert Southwell was survived by a widow,
> Elizabeth, who was appointed executrix of his will, along with several
> other individuals appointed as co-executors, including Christopher
> Urswick, Archdeacon of Oxford. On 29 May 1514 the king granted a
> royal pardon and release to the widow and her co-executors.
>
> Christopher Urswick, Archdeacon of Oxford, is elsewhere named as one
> of the executors of the will of Sir Robert Robert Southwell, Chief
> Butler of England, in the book, Fellows of the Collegiate Church of
> Manchester, Pt. 1 (Chetham Soc. n.s. 21) (1891): 27, which source may
> be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
> Sir Robert Southwell is mentioned in passing in helpful Dictionary of
> National Biography, 18 (1909): 700 (biog. of Sir Richard Southwell).
>
>
> Further information regarding Sir Robert Southwell may be found in
> Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, n.s. 1 (1874): 445. This
> material may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
> According to the tudorplace.com genealogical website, Sir Robert
> Southwell died 31 March 1513. No mention is made in that source of
> his surviving wife, Elizabeth, or of her remarriage to Sir Thomas
> Brooke, Lord Cobham. This Southwell information may be viewed at the
> following weblink:
>
>
> The Tudor Place website correctly shows that Sir Robert Southwell was
> previously married to Ursula Bohun, daughter and co-heiress of John
> Bohun, which Ursula was living 26 April 1494, but who died sometime
> before 10 May 1513. This prior marriage of Sir Robert Southwell is
> proven by records found in the Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds,
> 1 (1890): 75-76, which information is available at the following
> weblinks:
>
>
> As a matter of historical interest, It should be noted that Ursula
> Bohun's sister and co-heiress, Mary Bohun, was the wife of Sir David
> Owen, Knt., of Midhurst, Sussex, the illegitimate son of Jasper Tudor,
> which Sir David Owen was thus the paternal uncle of King Henry VII of
> England.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Mr. Richardson could benefit from doing more comprehensive research
before enthusiastically posting his "discovery". In particular, he
should make use of his local FHL instead of relying solely on web
sources.
The likely identity and family history of Elizabeth the 2nd wife of
Sir Robert Southwell can be found easily in standard sources readily
available at the FHL (and, in at least one case, also on Google
Books). (Some compilers say that Elizabeth's given name was Ursula,
but this may simply reflect confusion with Sir Robert Southwell's
first wife Ursula Bohun)
In light of Mr. Richardson's behavior over the past few days (at
least), I see no compelling reason to be "collegial" or to assist him
in filling the gaps in his incomplete research. I regret that other
(and valued) participants in this group may thus also miss out on this
information (if it is of interest to them), but that's an unfortunate
consequence of Mr. Richardson's continuing misbehavior.
A hint for those who are interested and willing to do some work
(unlike Mr. Richardson): start with the listing for Southwell in
Marshall's "Genealogist's Guide".
wjhonson
to another post) stated
BEGIN QUOTE
Subj: Re: A little more on Jane Cornwall, first wife of immigrant
Charles Chauncey's father
Date: 3/22/2008 1:50:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: starb...@hotmail.com (John Brandon)
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> One of the early Essex Visitations, in a pedigree of the Cornwall
> family, shows a John Cornwall, who married second the "doughter of
> Stubbes relicta Verney" and had an only child and heir Jane:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7&dq=%22issue+by+h...
Notice that John Cornwell's first wife, prior to Mrs. Stubbs-Verney,
was said to be the widow of a Lord Cobham. Letters & Papers of Henry
VIII has an entry indicating this was Elizabeth, lady Cobham,
stepmother of George Lord Cobham.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SnoWAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA429&dq=cobham+%22john+cornwell%22&lr=#PPA431,M1
Would this be Elizabeth Hart, third wife of Thomas lord Cobham (d.
1529)?
http://books.google.com/books?id=_kQJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=%22Thomas+lord+Cobham%22+elizabeth&lr=#PPA107,M1
END QUOTE
Which seems credible to me
And just to correct something DR said initially, Elizabeth is given as
*third* wife to Thomas lord Cobham, the first two being Dorothy Heydon
and Dorothy Calthorpe (d 1517). Most likely confused with each other.
Will Johnson
gvo...@talktalk.net
> On this topic I note that just a month ago, John Brandon (in response
> to another post) stated
>
> BEGIN QUOTE
> Subj: Re: A little more on Jane Cornwall, first wife of immigrant
> Charles Chauncey's father
> Date: 3/22/2008 1:50:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
>
> > One of the early Essex Visitations, in a pedigree of the Cornwall
> > family, shows a John Cornwall, who married second the "doughter of
> > Stubbes relicta Verney" and had an only child and heir Jane:
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7&dq=%22issue+by+h...
>
> Notice that John Cornwell's first wife, prior to Mrs. Stubbs-Verney,
> was said to be the widow of a Lord Cobham. Letters & Papers of Henry
> VIII has an entry indicating this was Elizabeth, lady Cobham,
>
> Would this be Elizabeth Hart, third wife of Thomas lord Cobham (d.
>
> END QUOTE
>
> Which seems credible to me
>
> And just to correct something DR said initially, Elizabeth is given as
> *third* wife to Thomas lord Cobham, the first two being Dorothy Heydon
> and Dorothy Calthorpe (d 1517). Most likely confused with each other.
>
> Will Johnson
Hi
DR said that there is no source for the information about Sir Thomas's
second wife in CP and Will also questions there being three wives.
Perhaps CP derived the info from Sir Thomas's brass in Cobham which
bears the inscription
"Orate pro anima Thome Brooke militis dn'i de Cobham
. ac Consanguini et heredis Richardi Beauchamp militis
qui quidem Thomas cepit in vxorem Dorothea' filiam
Henrici Haydon militis et habueraunt exitu' inter eos
septe' filios et sex filias et p'd'ca Dorothea obijt et
p'd'cus Thomas Cepit in vxorem Dorothea' Southwell vidua'
que obijt sine exitu et postea Cepit in vxore' Elizabetha
Hart et habuerunt nullu' exitu' inter eos qui quide'
Thomas obijt xix die Julij Ac d'ni MCCCCCxxixti."
I do not know how contemporary brasses were with those they remember
but I'll wager they were laid within a few years of the deceased's
death- a primary source perhaps?.
Interesting too that Thomas is given as heir of Richard Beauchamp-
this is Richard Lord Seyntmond and St Amand about which there was a
long discussion in this group some years ago in which DR was prominent
Geoff V
jhigg...@yahoo.com
In fact, this brass is cited by CP in its account of Thomas Brooke,
Lord Cobham - a citation apparently overlooked by DR in his haste to
claim that "no sources whatever are provided" by CP in support of
Dorothy Southwell, said to be Lord Cobham's second wife. The brass is
likely CP's sole source for at least the last two marriages of Lord
Cobham, since it essentially recites the (translated) text of the
brass verbatim - and adds a lengthy footnote explaining the (rather
distant) relationship to Richard Beauchamp.
It would be interesting to see if anything is known about the history
of this brass. Memorial brasses, even if they are contemporaneous,
have occasionally been found to be wrong, and legitimate doubts have
been raised about the identify of at least of the wives listed on the
brass. It seems that the brass is the only source we currently have
for the surname Hart assigned to the third wife Elizabeth.
Will Johnson's mention of a subsequent marriage for Elizabeth, widow
of a Lord Cobham, raises another possibility which is intriguing
although admittedly far-fetched. Maybe CP was wrong in a different
way about the wives of this Lord Cobham - perhaps he had two wives
instead of three. If the brass is the only for three marriages, the
case for three marriages may be weak.
It seems to be accepted that the first wife was Dorothy Heydon, but
perhaps his only other wife was Elizabeth, previously married to Sir
Robert Southwell and subsequently married to John Cornewall. It's
certainly speculative, but it agrees with about as many of the known
facts in the situation as other alternatives do - and disagrees with
as many of the facts as the other alternatives do, also.
gvo...@talktalk.net
Elizabeth Hart was the d of John Hart and Elizabeth Peche of
Lullingstone in Kent. Her brother Percyval Hart inherited the
Lullingworth Estate when her brother John Peche died dsp in 1488. When
John Hart died Elizabeth nee Peche remarried to George Brocke the
younger brother of Thomas and so was in the strange position of being
both mother in law and sister in law to Thomas Brooke Lord Cobham.
This from a secondard source I admit- see Arch Cantab vol 16 p 104
moreover I cannot find it just at the moment to see their sources.
Geoff
Douglas Richardson
Sir Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Cobham (died 1529) had three wives as
stated by Complete Peerage. His first wife was Dorothy Heydon. I've
identified his second wife as Elizabeth, widow of Robert Southwell,
Knt., which Elizabeth was dead before 1518, as per the abstract of the
Chancery lawsuit copied below. His third wife, Elizabeth Hart,
survived him and was living in 1552.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue (http://
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
C 1/452/8: Christopher Urswyk, LL.D., and others, executors of Robert
gvo...@talktalk.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
sorry typo, John Hart died in 1521, he and Elizabeth's father William
Peche died in 1488
Geoff