Carolingian - Merovingian LINK ?
Fred Tiedemann Croese
At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the Carolingians and the Merovingians (I
could'nt check my source). I'm also not very confident about the fact that the link is via Dagobert II.
Several unreliabe sources (like Holy Blood, Holy Grail) also have him as the person with male desendants (even
still living).
If there is no link between both dynasties, can anybody tell me about desendants via Merovingian daughters who
have maried into medieval royalty?
The link I have between the Carolingians and the Merovingians can be found in my GEDCOM-file, downloadable via
my home page at:
--
Fred Tiedemann Croese
exet...@sable.ox.ac.uk
I don't know of the tradition concerning Dagobert II. He did it seems
have children as Chilperic II (715-21, was said to be his son. Perhaps he
ad a daughter too. The parentage of the various Merovingian kings after
711 is very uncertain.
Some have thought that the wife of Pippin III was of Merovingian descent.
An article 30 yrs ago by E. Hlawitschka, 'Die Vorfahren der Karl die
Grosse' in _Karl die Grosse_ (vol I, p76-8, n26) is I think the
definitive study on the family of Pippin III's wife. Pippin III's wife
was Bertrada II (d.12-7-783). She was the daughter of Charibert
(Heribert) Ct of Laon when they married in 747 (49?). He signs the
foundation charter of the abbey of Prum founded by his mother Bertrada I
in 720, as does her sister Chrodelind. After Chrodelind come two names
Bernar and Theoderic, which were assumed by Hlawitschka to be her husband
and son. Because of these Merovingian names, Charibert and Theoderic, it
has been suggested that there was some Merovingian blood in this family.
However Bertrada's immediate parents are known: they were Hugobert Count
of the Palace (d.698?) and Irmina of Oeren. Irmina's family belonged to
the dukes of Thuringia, so any Merovingian blood must have been pretty
much diffused or come by another route. It might be of interest that
Hlawitschka also sees Plectrude wife of Pippin II as a sister of
Bertrada I.
However there is a tradition, recorded (or invented) by Paul the Deacon
in his History of the Bishops of Metz (written c.780) that one of
St.Arnulf's ancestors, his grandfather Ansbert I think, married Bilichild
daughter of Clovis: later this was changed to Chlothar (presumably
Clothar I (d. 561) was meant). this was added to a genealogy of the
Carolingians in the mid-ninth century.
Very few Merovingian women seem to have married: The last one I remember
was Bilichild daughter of Clovis II (?) who married her cousin Childeric
II. Both were murdered in 675.
Nathaniel Taylor
Fred Tiedemann Croese <f...@bart.nl> asked about links from Merovingians to
later royalty and the Oxford anonymous has already replied well.
I would add that the recent work by Christian Settipani, _La prehistoire
des Capetiens_, vol. 1 of the _Nouvelle histoire genealogique de l'auguste
maison de France_ (Villeneuve d'Asq: eds. Van Kerrebrouck, 1991) examines
each of the various putative links, including the ascent of the wife of
Pippin III, and provides thorough, up-to-date bibliography for sources and
interpretations of the various _possible_ but unprovable Merovingian
links. Of these, the male-line descent from Dagobert II (and from Jesus)
in _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ is by far the silliest.
Nat Taylor
Jared Olar
On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Fred Tiedemann Croese wrote:
> At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the
> Carolingians and the Merovingians (I couldn't check my source). I'm
> also not very confident about the fact that the link is via Dagobert II.
Hi Fred.
For what it's worth, here is the purported Merovingian descent from King
Dagobert II to Regnier I of Hainaut, most easily to be found in ANCESTRAL
ROOTS:
DAGOBERT II, King of Austrasia, 676-680, married MATHILD.
ADELA, said (by Chaume) to be a daughter of Dagobert II.
ALBERIC (Aubri) I, Count of Blois, son of Adela.
ALBERIC II, Count of Blois, son of Alberic I.
THEIDILINDA, living circa 795, daughter of Alberic II; married Count
GAINFROI, perhaps Count of Sens, son of MAGNACHAR (Mainier), Count of
Sens, whose wife was a daughter of Duke Halderic (Haudre).
GISELBERT I, Count in the Maasgau (seen 839-842), son of Gainfroi and
Theidilinda; married prob. a sister of Echard, Count of Hesbaye.
GISELBERT II, Count in the Maasgau, son of Giselbert I; married 846 to
IRMENGARDA, daughter of Emperor Lothar I, son of Emperor Louis I, son of
Charlemagne.
RAGNACHAR (Regnier) I 'LONGHALS' (Longneck), Duke of Lorraine, Count of
Hainaut, Lay Abbot of Echternach, died 915/16.
Of course, this is not a descent from the Merovingians to the
Carolingians, but would (if true) be a descent both from Carolingians and
from Merovingians.
> Several unreliable sources (like Holy Blood, Holy Grail) also have him
> as the person with male desendants (even still living).
You are very wise to mistrust _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_. The lineage of
the Counts of Razes found therein is pretty worthless.
> If there is no link between both dynasties, can anybody tell me about
> descendants via Merovingian daughters who have maried into medieval
> royalty?
There are a few reputed or probable links between the Carolingians and
the Merovingians, but I do not know if any of them have been sorted out
yet, nor indeed if it is even possible to do so. In any case, I'll go
through a few of them:
I. The male line of the Carolingians has been traced back to a Ripuarian
Frankish king named CHLODOVECH or Clovis, King of Cologne circa
420 A.D. For some reason ANCESTRAL ROOTS calls Chlodovech's line
"The Riparian Branch of the Merovingian House," or something like
that. But since King Merovech, eponym of the Merovingians, was at
best a younger contemporary of King Chlodovech, we may safely
conclude that Chlodovech was a descendant of Merovech. Granted,
Chlodovech and Merovech were probably related in some way, in both
male and female lines, but such kinship is untraceable. Occasionally,
King Chlodovech is said to have married a Merovingian, but again, the
chronology shows that his wife could not have been descended from
Merovech--a sister or aunt, perhaps, but not a descendant.
II. CHLODERICH, King of Cologne, greatgrandson of the abovenamed King
Chlodovech, is said to have married a kinswoman of Clothilda, wife
of the Merovingian CHLODOVECH I (Clovis), King of the Franks.
Clothilda was a Burgundian princess, so perhaps Chloderich's wife
was also a Burgundian--but she may have been a Merovingian
(Clothilda's marriage to Clovis making them kinswomen). *IF* his wife
was a Merovingian, this might be a Carolingian descent from the
Merovingians, because Chloderich was the direct male-line ancestor
of Charlemagne. But it is a **VERY** big if. In fact, I do not even
know what evidence there is that Chloderich's wife was related to
Queen Clothilda.
III. The Gallo-Roman Senator ANSBERTUS, probably brother of Agilulf, Bishop
of Metz, was married to a woman named BLITHILDA or BLICHILDA, by whom
he became the father of ARNOALDUS (St. Arnold), Bishop of Metz.
Blithilda is said to have been a daughter of CHLODERICH, King of
Cologne, greatgrandson of the abovenamed King Chlodovech. However,
others have said that she was a daughter of the Merovingian CHLOTHAR I
(or CHLOTOCHAR--note the similarity of the names), King of the Franks,
son of CHLODOVECH (Clovis) I, King of the Franks who became the first
Christian (Catholic) Frankish king, son of CHILDERICH, son of MEROVECH,
eponym of the Merovingian Dynasty. But Blithilda's parentage has not
been established (as far as I know), nor are descents from Senator
Ansbertus completely verified either. The traditional Carolingian
pedigree made Arnoaldus, Bishop of Metz, the father of ARNULF, Bishop
of Metz, paternal ancestor of Charlemagne--but that was shown to be
false. Arnulf's father was named Bodegisel or Baudgise, not Arnoaldus.
Afterwards, it was suggested that Bishop Arnoaldus was the father of
ITTA (St. Iduberga), wife of PIPPIN (Pepin) of Landen and mother of
BEGGA, wife of ANSGISEL, son of Arnulf, son of Bodegisel--but the
parentage of Itta has not been established, and she may not have been
Bishop Arnoaldus' daughter after all. Only if she was really the
daughter of Arnoaldus *AND* Blithilda was the daughter of Chlothar
can this Carolingian descent from the Merovingians been accepted.
IV. MUNDERICH, lord of Vitry-en-Perthois, son of the abovenamed CHLODERICH,
King of Cologne, was said to have married a daughter of the abovenamed
CHLOTHAR I, King of the Franks. If this legend is accurate, then we
would have a Carolingian descent from the Merovingians, because
MUNDERICH was the direct male-line ancestor of Charlemagne.
V. PIPPIN (Pepin) THE SHORT, King of the Franks, married BERTHA (Bertrada)
'Broadfoot'--they were the parents of Emperor Charlemagne. Bertha
was the daughter of CHARIBERT, Count of Laon (seen 720-747), by his
wife Bertrada. Count Charibert's father is said to be MARTIN of Laon,
who in turn is said to be a son of ANSEGISEL and BEGGA (see above).
Count Charibert's mother was named BERTHA, and she was a Merovingian.
This female-line descent through the family King Pippin's wife Bertha
is the only fully establish Carolingian descent from the Merovingian
Dynasty. Unfortunately, the ancestry of Charibert's mother Bertha is
uncertain. She could have been a daughter of one of the Merovingian
kings living at about that time, but others says her father was a
man named THEODARD (who would in turn be of Merovingian descent).
Thus, the only road by which a Carolingian descent from the
Merovingians may be established is still under construction.
These and similar possible descents were discussed by the late Sir Anthony
Richard Wagner is his two books ENGLISH GENEALOGY and PEDIGREE AND
PROGRESS. In the latter book, he also shows intermarriage between the
Merovingian House and the Oiscing Kings of Kent in England. ECGBERT,
King of Wessex, was the son of EAHLMUND, Sub-king of Kent, who either
married an Oiscing heiress or else was himself descended from one, so it
is very likely that the Pre-Conquest Kings of England (Ecgbert's family)
were descendants of the Merovingians through the Kings of Kent. However,
once again we find that the exact pedigree cannot be established. Others
here might know more about the Kentish connection to the Merovingians,
and could offer you more assistance. Other than this one, I am unaware
of other links between the Merovingians and later European families.
(One of the legendary pedigrees of the Habsburgs made them male-line
descendants of the Merovingians through a certain LIGIBERT, supposedly
a son of one of the Kings of Austrasia--but that pedigree is most
unacceptable, to say the least.)
Jared Olar
tomBodley
In article <4tb06i$k...@news.ox.ac.uk>, exet...@sable.ox.ac.uk says...
>
>Fred Tiedemann Croese <f...@bart.nl> wrote:
>>At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the Carolingians and the Merovingians (I
>>Several unreliabe sources (like Holy Blood, Holy Grail) also have him as the person with male desendants (even
>>still living).
>>If there is no link between both dynasties, can anybody tell me about desendants via Merovingian daughters who
>>
>>my home page at:
>>
>>http://www.bart.nl/~ftc
>>
>>--
>>Fred Tiedemann Croese
>
>I don't know of the tradition concerning Dagobert II. He did it seems
>have children as Chilperic II (715-21, was said to be his son. Perhaps he
>ad a daughter too. The parentage of the various Merovingian kings after
>711 is very uncertain.
>
Uncertain yes, but usually, Chilperic II is held to have been a son of
Childeric II, is this not so? However this was not directly related to
the original post.
snip
>Very few Merovingian women seem to have married: The last one I remember
>was Bilichild daughter of Clovis II (?) who married her cousin Childeric
>II. Both were murdered in 675.
>
I think Bilichild was a daughter of Sigebert III and sister of Dagobert II.
However is is quite true that few Merovingian princesses ever married: I
think Bilichild is the only princess named in the seventh century, though
both Theudebert II (d.612) and Childebert II (d.595) had daughters who
survived to adulthood I think. One of Theudebert's daughters married a
Lombard king, (?Adaloald) I think.
However a number of Merovingian princesses did marry foreign kings in
the sixth century: including Ingund dau. of Sigebert I who married
Hermenigild son of Reccared I, and had at least one son. But the most
promising line of enquiry is from Charibert I. His daughter Bertha
married Aethelbert I of Kent (d.618?), so I suggest looking in
Anglo-saxon descents to see if any of his descendants married into
the other saxon royal houses. I found this reference in Ian Wood's
'The Merovingian Kingdoms' published about 1994: the references for
this marriage are Gregory of Tours and Bede. I don't have a copy
of Bede but the GT reference (bk IV, 26) does not actually name
Aethelbert: it just says she married a man from Kent and went to
live there, the sort of vagueness that Gregory generally displays
about foreign affairs.
tom
Stewart Baldwin
Jared Olar <ol...@eagle.uis.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Fred Tiedemann Croese wrote:
>> At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the
>> Carolingians and the Merovingians (I couldn't check my source). I'm
>> also not very confident about the fact that the link is via Dagobert II.
>
>Hi Fred.
>
>For what it's worth, here is the purported Merovingian descent from King
>Dagobert II to Regnier I of Hainaut, most easily to be found in ANCESTRAL
>ROOTS:
>
>DAGOBERT II, King of Austrasia, 676-680, married MATHILD.
>
>ADELA, said (by Chaume) to be a daughter of Dagobert II.
Adela was probably not the daughter of Dagobert, but rather of the count
palatine Hugobert (d. 697/8). See "Die Vorfahren Karls des Grossen" by
Hlawitschka, in the four volume "Karl der Grosse", vol. 1, pp. 51ff. In
addition, the immediately following generations have dotted lines in
Chaume, indicating conjecture.
>ALBERIC (Aubri) I, Count of Blois, son of Adela.
>
>ALBERIC II, Count of Blois, son of Alberic I.
>
etc. [snip]
>There are a few reputed or probable links between the Carolingians and
>the Merovingians, but I do not know if any of them have been sorted out
>yet, nor indeed if it is even possible to do so. In any case, I'll go
>through a few of them:
>
>I. The male line of the Carolingians has been traced back to a Ripuarian
> Frankish king named CHLODOVECH or Clovis, King of Cologne circa
> 420 A.D. For some reason ANCESTRAL ROOTS calls Chlodovech's line
> "The Riparian Branch of the Merovingian House," or something like
> that. But since King Merovech, eponym of the Merovingians, was at
> best a younger contemporary of King Chlodovech, we may safely
> conclude that Chlodovech was a descendant of Merovech. Granted,
> Chlodovech and Merovech were probably related in some way, in both
> male and female lines, but such kinship is untraceable. Occasionally,
> King Chlodovech is said to have married a Merovingian, but again, the
> chronology shows that his wife could not have been descended from
> Merovech--a sister or aunt, perhaps, but not a descendant.
The male line ancestry of Charlemagne prior to Bishop Arnulf of Metz is
based on late sources of questionable value. See the account of
Hlawitschka referred to above, and the references cited there.
[snip]
>These and similar possible descents were discussed by the late Sir Anthony
>Richard Wagner is his two books ENGLISH GENEALOGY and PEDIGREE AND
>PROGRESS. In the latter book, he also shows intermarriage between the
>Merovingian House and the Oiscing Kings of Kent in England. ECGBERT,
>King of Wessex, was the son of EAHLMUND, Sub-king of Kent, who either
>married an Oiscing heiress or else was himself descended from one, so it
>is very likely that the Pre-Conquest Kings of England (Ecgbert's family)
>were descendants of the Merovingians through the Kings of Kent. However,
>once again we find that the exact pedigree cannot be established. Others
>here might know more about the Kentish connection to the Merovingians,
>and could offer you more assistance. Other than this one, I am unaware
>of other links between the Merovingians and later European families.
>(One of the legendary pedigrees of the Habsburgs made them male-line
>descendants of the Merovingians through a certain LIGIBERT, supposedly
>a son of one of the Kings of Austrasia--but that pedigree is most
>unacceptable, to say the least.)
The supposed descent of the West Saxon kings from the Merovingians by way
of the kings of Kent is pure guesswork. King Ecgbert of Wessex was the son
of a man named Ealhmund, who has sometimes been identified with the
sub-king of Kent of the same name who appears during the reign of Offa of
Mercia, but there is no evidence for this identification beyond the fact
that Ecgbert's father and the Kentish subking had the same name and lived
during the same time. The is no record of any marriage occurring between
the dynasty of Wessex and the dynasty of Kent. The "evidence" in this case
is the fact that the name Ecgbert was also borne by two Kentish kings, and
on this basis (bolstered by the uncertain identification of the two
Ealhmunds mentioned above), it has been conjectured that Ecgbert of Wessex
was descended from one of the Kentish Ecgberts, which might then give a
Merovingian descent by way of the Merovingian Bertha, wife of king
Aethelbald of Kent. Given the completely conjectural nature of this
claimed descent, and the lack of supporting evidence, I think it is best to
take it with a grain of salt.
Stewart Baldwin
Fred Tiedemann Croese
> >>At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the Carolingians and the Merovingians (I
Have a look at:
Http://edge.edge.net/~gumby/genweb/Winch/Winch.html
At this site I found information about the ancestry of Saint Arnoul Of Metz which is also a link between
Carolingians and Merovingians.
If this information is correct, there is a direct male descendance from Clodion le Chevelu or Clodius Long
Haired (Father of the namegiving Merovee of the Merovingians) to the Carolingians (Saint Arnoul of Metz).
Clodius Long Haired (b.395)
| m. Basina (b.398)
|
+----------------+---------------+
| |
| |
Adelbert (b.486) Merovee (b.415)
| | m. Verica (b.419)
| |
Wambert (b.511) Childeric I (b.436)
| | m. Basina (b.438-440)
| |
Ausbert (b.536) Clovis I (b.496)
| m. Berthe of Kent=========+ | m. Clotilde (b.475)
| | |
Arnoldus Of Saxony (b.562) | Clotaire I (b.497)
| m. Oda (b.562) | | m. Ingonde (b.499-502)
| | |
Saint Arnoul of Metz (b.582) | Charibert I (b.520)
| | | m. Ingoberge (b.520)
| | |
Ansegise +==Berthe of Kent (b.541)
Very interesting is'nt it? B U T ...
Adelbert was born 91 years after his father (and also 38 years after his fathers death) and 88 years after his
mother. I think we miss at least 3 generations here.
Clotaire I was born 1 year after his father Clovis I. This is caused by a typing error; Clovis I was born in
466 and not in 496.
Besides the mistakes as mentioned above, what more is wrong? Or is there some (or a lot) truth?
Does anyone know the site mentioned above? What value does it have?
--
Fred Tiedemann Croese
Jared Olar
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 tomB...@MAIL2.ONLINE.APPLE.COM wrote:
[snip]
> However a number of Merovingian princesses did marry foreign kings in
> the sixth century: including Ingund dau. of Sigebert I who married
> Hermenigild son of Reccared I, and had at least one son.
Actually Hermenigild was Reccared's older brother.
> But the most promising line of enquiry is from Charibert I. His daughter
> Bertha married Aethelbert I of Kent (d.618?), so I suggest looking in
> Anglo-Saxon descents to see if any of his descendants married into
> the other Saxon royal houses. I found this reference in Ian Wood's
> 'The Merovingian Kingdoms' published about 1994: the references for
> this marriage are Gregory of Tours and Bede. I don't have a copy
> of Bede but the GT reference (bk IV, 26) does not actually name
> Aethelbert: it just says she married a man from Kent and went to
> live there, the sort of vagueness that Gregory generally displays
> about foreign affairs.
>
> tom
If I remember right, Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English People_
says that Aethelbert of Kent married the Merovingian Bertha, as you say
above. In fact, Bede's history was somewhat patterned after and inspired
by Gregory's history--Bede probably knew of Gregory's reference to the
marriage of Charibert's daughter Bertha to "the Kentish man."
Jared