re. Jones, Jeffries, and Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of Penllyn
Jeffery A. Duvall
In an article by A.E. de Couet, "The Ancestry of John Jones, 18th Century Boston Merchant" (NEHGR 113, 1959: 216-221), Cadwallader Jones (d. ca. 1672) is identified as King Charles I's "Collector General of Customs" (in Bristol). This same individual is also described as being a descendant of "Rhirid Flaidd," Lord of Penllyn.
This same Cadwallader Jones is also mentioned on page 137 of Roberts RD500 where his second wife Anne Bluet's descent from Edward III is laid out. What does not appear in either Roberts' book or the de Couet article is that Virginia genealogist and scholars have identified this same Cadwallader Jones as the father of the merchant Richard Jones who married Mrs. Frances Baldwin Townshend in Virginia ca. 1651/52. Their only child was the Virginia explorer & Indian trader, Lt. Col. Cadwallader Jones (b. ca. 1652/3 d. aft. 1694), who ended his carereer (after he went bankrupt in Virginia) as Governor of the Bahamas (1689-1694).
Since the senior Cadwallader Jones' marriage to Anne Bluet took place too late for her to be the mother of Richard Jones, it's been speculated (as there is some indication of the families engaging in business with one another) that his mother might have been connected to the Jeffries family of London and the manor of Ley in Devonshire, but I've never seen any documentation for that and it's just as likely that the "relationship" was strictly a business one.
After all that my question is whether or not anyone has any information on this claimed link between this Jones family and Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of Penylln. Does, for instance, Bartrum cover the descendants of this fellow?
Thanks for the help.
Jeff Duvall
jef...@iquest.net
Reedpcgen
>this claimed link between this Jones family and Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of
>Penylln. Does, for instance, Bartrum cover the descendants of this fellow?
>
Bartrum does not come down this late. They key to finding the ancestry would
be arms used in Virginia. I don't have a copy of Crozier's Virginia Heraldica,
and cannot remember if the genealogies of this family indicate arms. Are you
aware of them?
Paul
Jeffery A. Duvall
recall anything about arms, but I can't say for certain. If I find anything
I'll post the information. Thanks.
Jeff Duvall
Reedpcgen
arms engraved on the hilt of the sword worn by Maj. Cadwallader Jones of Prince
George's County as:
Per bend sinister ermine and ermines, a lion rampant or a bordure engrailed of
the last."
Now, these are indeed arms of some Jones families, and in fact, without the
bordure are the arms of Tudur Trefor, from whom several Jones families claim
descent.
But they are completely different than those of Rhirid Flaid, which are, vert,
a chevron between 3 wolves' heads erased argent (or various other colors given
for the chevron).
Though Cadwallader Jones held some land in the parish of Ashbrittle, Somerset,
on the extreme southwest of the county, I wonder if it was not his ancestral
home (even though an Alexander Jones married an Agnes Bishop there in 1563).
Ashbrittle had actually belonged to the Blewet family in the time of Elizabeth
I, and no Jones was listed among the 131 people of Ashbrittle parish listed in
the 1641-2 Protestation Return, nor was a Jones listed in the 1641 subsidy of
Camelie or 1642 subsidy of Ashbrittle (though the heirs of John Buett [sic]
were taxed at Ashbrittle).
The earlier Cadwallader Jones was described as an Exeter merchant. Though he
described himself as "of Greenham, in the parish of Ashbrittle, co, Somerset,
esq." in 1642, he was not there in 1641 (at least not resident there).
In 1645 he was at Exeter and "Customer" of Dartmouth, standing for the King in
1648 (thus compounded). That account (Cal. Comp., p. 1818) says he married an
heiress of the ancient Devon family of Bluet of Holcombe Regis). Given that
the heirs of John Bluett were taxed at Ashbrittle in 1642, it makes me wonder
if his wife has been correctly identified. The Cal. Compounding states he also
held the manor of Milverton by right of his marriage with a daughter and
coheiress of John Bluet.
He died indebted, administration being granted to his principle creditor, Sir
Robert Jeffreys. His son Richard Jones (in Virginia 1651) was already dead by
December 1653, having left a son named Cadwallader Jones. The son Cadwallader
Jones patented 1443 acres in November 1673, meaning he was born by 1652. His
mother was still the widow Mrs. Frances Townsend on 7 February 1650/1.
Cadwallader described his father as having been a London merchant in 1681.
There is a marriage allegation for Cadwallader Jones, of Ashbrittle, esquire,
aged 23 in 1677 (born 1653-4), to Elizabeth Hippesley, widow, to be married at
Blagdon, Burrington or Cameley [license 30 April 1677]. He would be the
Cadwallader Jones, of Cameley, Somerset, esquire, who left a will dated 17 Sep.
1687 and proved 2 May 1692 by his relict Elizabeth Jones (PCC 88 Fane), leaving
several sons and daughter by his wife, mentioning father-in-law John Creswick,
of Upper Lanford, gent., his 4th part of the Barton in Greenham in Ashbrittle,
with the 4th part of the stone quarry & woods belonging thereto, and 4th part
of Prestbridge Mills in that parish, lately purchased by him of William
Lenthall, esquire. The administration of Elizabeth Jones, widow, of Cameley,
was granted to John Creswick, guardian of her minor son John Jones, in Nov.
1698.
There is a MI for Cadwallader Jones at Cameley, but we do not have a
description here. I don't know if it might indicate arms, but would be worth
checking, as the arms on the Cadwallader Jones of Virginia may be a late
acquisition.
How do we know that Richard Jones, the London merchant, father of Cadwallader
Jones of Virginia, was a son of the earlier Cadwallader Jones? I guess that is
indicated by the release in 1681 by Cadwallader Jones, son and heir of Richard
Jones, late of London, merchant, of his interests in the manor of Ley to Sir
Robert Jeffreys.
Paul
Jeffery A. Duvall
Many thanks for your detailed message re. Cadwallader Jones. I'm also
grateful for the corrections you made to my initial post (vis-a-vis the
elder Cadwallader's career), I obviously should have waited to post it from
home (where I could have referred back to my files) rather than doing it
from memory at work.
Now that I've had a chance to do so, however, I must note that in neither
the NEHGR article (mentioned in my query) nor the article by Fairfax
Harrison, "Western Explorations in Virginia Between Lederer and Spotswood"
(The Virginia Magazine of History & Biography, 1922, vol. 30, pps. 323-340)
is any mention made of a coat of arms being used by either Cadwallader
Jones.
Since Richard Jones' only known child was Lt. Col. Cadwallader Jones, and
Lt. Col. Cad. Jones' only known child was a single daughter (Frances Jones
who married Robert Slaughter, Sr.), I'm not sure what relationship (if any)
existed between that family and the Major Cadwalladers Jones of Prince
George's County mentioned in Crozier.
The NEHGR article identifies the senior Cadwallader Jones as a member of
Rhirid Flaidd's family and bases the claim upon the "existence [of] a
pedigree" to that effect. Unfortunately the author failed to provide any
further details about this "pedigree." The author (de Couet) also indicated
that it "seems" that the elder Cadwallader was "the first of his line to
adopt a surname."
I should also note that the Fairfax article speculates that the first
Cadwallader may have been the individual (age 22 in 1624) by that name who
arrived in Virginia on the *Marmaduke* in 1623 -- although that seems a bit
tight, chronologically, for him to have a son old enough to be marrying the
widow Townsend ca. 1651/52...
Finally, I'm very curious about the possiblity that you've raised about the
wrong Bluet having been assigned as the wife of the elder Cadwallader Jones.
I'm not sure if the actual date of that marriage is known or not. If it's
not known, is it possible that the late date (sometime between 1643 and
1648) that I've found mentioned online is based solely upon the birthdate of
the Anne Bluet who is normally identified as the woman in question? If
that's the case, and the wrong Bluet has indeed been assigned as his wife,
doesn't that open the possibility that Richard Jones might in fact be the
son of the Bluet marriage, if the marriage took place earlier to a different
member of the Bluet family? I realize it's all speculation at this point,
but perhaps it might be worthwhile for me to look into the Bluets...
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: re. Jones, Jeffries, and Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of Penllyn
iain wallace
While the surname Jones is too common to be any help, being borne by many
families apparently purely English families, anyone called Cadwallader Jones
surely had parents keen to proclaim their Welsh ancestry.
(London was full of Welshmen on the make from 1485!).
Ian.
Jeffery A. Duvall
used by Cadwallader Jones of Cameley, Somerset. His funeral monument, which
hangs in the Cameley Church, is described "with the chevron and the three
wolves' heads of Jones impaling the lion rampant of Creswick." The
inscription reads: Hic jacent cineres Cadwallader Jones Armigeri Laetam
Anaetaein Exspectantes, Atavis Nobilibus tum parentis tum Maternis oriundi,
filii natu maxmi Cadwallader Jones de Grenham in Agro Somersetensi, obiit 13
Aprilis 1692.
So it appears the family did make use of at least some variation of the arms
used by Rhirid Flaidd.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: re. Jones, Jeffries, and Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of Penllyn
Reedpcgen
>wrong Bluet having been assigned as the wife of the elder Cadwallader Jones.
>I'm not sure if the actual date of that marriage is known or not. If it's
>not known, is it possible that the late date (sometime between 1643 and
>1648) that I've found mentioned online is based solely upon the birthdate of
>the Anne Bluet who is normally identified as the woman in question?
It would seem clear that (a) he married a daughter of John Bluet, who had held
lands I mentioned, and (b) that this marriage was by 1642, by which time John
was already dead.
I don't think the marriage date is known, and the justification given is the
age of the father given in visitations and daughter.
Richard Jones's son Cadwallader was apparently born 1652-3, so his father
likely would be born by 1631-2, and would be 21 at the time he first bought and
sold land in Virginia.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>used by Cadwallader Jones of Cameley, Somerset.
>His funeral monument, which
>hangs in the Cameley Church, is described "with the chevron and the three
>wolves' heads of Jones impaling the lion rampant of Creswick."
We know that this Cadwallader Jones's wife Elizabeth was daughter of John
Creswick.
> The
>inscription reads: Hic jacent cineres Cadwallader Jones Armigeri Laetam
>Anaetaein Exspectantes, Atavis Nobilibus tum parentis tum Maternis oriundi,
>filii natu maxmi Cadwallader Jones de Grenham in Agro Somersetensi, obiit 13
>Aprilis 1692.
This tells us he was eldest son and heir of Cadwallader Jones, but the marriage
license in 1677 said he was 23, but maaried a widow. If that age is correct,
he was born about 1653-4, almost the same time as Cadwallader, son of Richard
Jones in Virginia.
Either there were three Cadwallader Jones in a row in England, with interests
in Greenham, or there has been a confusion of Cadwallader Joneses.
Vivian's Vis. Devon, 94, states that John Blewett, son and heir of Arthur
Blewett, of Holcombe Regis (whose grandfather John Blewett held Greenham,
Somerset), was born and bp. 31 Aug. 1603, aged 11 in 1614, and died 28 Nov.
1634. He married Elizabeth Portman, daughter of Sir John Portman, Baronet, and
she was buried at Holcombe Regis 11 Aug. 1636 (will 1637, PCC 63 or 68 Goare).
They had seven daughters and coheirs, the eldest being Anne, bp. at Holcombe
Regis 8 Sep. 1625, aged 9 years at the death of her father and named in the
will of her mother. No marriages are given for the daughters, but as the
father had an IPM, they would have become wards of the crown. Anne would have
been sixteen in 1641, so could have been married to Cadwallader Jones by 1642,
but not have had a male child for some years afterwards (1653).
I have not looked into the New England material. Do you know what dates, etc.,
are given for that line?
Gary Boyd Roberts gives John Jones of Massachusetts as son of William Jones,
son of Cadwallader Jones (by Elizabeth Creswick), son of Cadwallader Jones by
Anne Bluet. The Bluet marriage appears to have occurred by 1642, but the son
and heir not born until 1653?
Paul
Reedpcgen
forthcoming book, unless he has disproven the multitude of Plantagenet descents
to Cadwallader Jones, Jr.
For instance, Gary shows:
1. Edward III
2. John of Gaunt
3. Joan Beaufort
4. Richard Neville
5. Catherine Neville
6. Cecily Bonville
7. Dorothy Grey
8. Dorothy Blount
9. Richard Bluet
10. Arthur Bluet
11 John Bluet
12. Anne Bluet
13. Cadwallader Jones
I guess that tecjnically beats out
1. Edward III
2. Thomas of Woodstock
3. Anne
4. William Bourchier
5. Fulke Bourchier
6. John Bourchier, Earl of Bath (m. c. 1499)
7. Elizabeth Bourchier
8. Sir John Chichester, MP (1`5`9/10-`568-9)
9. Mary Chichester (m. Richard Blewett, bur. 18 Mar. 1614/15)
10. Arthur Blewett (bp. 7 Jan. 1573/4, m. 26 Aug. 1595, d. 12 Nov. 1612)
11. John Blewett (bp. 31 Aug. 1603)
12. Anne Blewett (bp. 8 Sep. 1625)
13. Cadwallader Jones, Jr.
Doug, what have you worked out in your book that would help Jeff, or does he
have to wait and buy the book? Is the connection false? WHat of the Virginia
connection and the manor of Ley, and interests held in it by Cadwallader Jones
of Virginia?
Paul
Reedpcgen
Cadwallader Jones, Jr., and what he found which might help Jeff and others.
A Cadwallader Jones purchased the manor of Ley, in Beerferris, Devon, from a
merchant named Richard Pugh in 1649 (Devon, Feet of Fines, 23 Car. I), which
Pugh had just purchased the manor from Sir James Ley, Earl of Marlborough.
It was stated that his chief creditor was Sir Robert Jeffreys. It has been
suggested that he was connected to the other Jeffreys, but this seems unlikely,
as he is described as "a poor boy" of the [arish of Landrake, Cornwall. whereas
the others are from Brecnockshire, Wales.
In 1681, Cadwallader Jones, son and heir of the late Richard Jones, a London
merchant, released all rights he might have in the manor of Ley to Sir Robert
Jeffreys, who became Lord Mayor of London (will 1704 PCC 63 Ash).
Now enter the OTHER Jeffreys, who had been prominent tobacco merchants, and had
obligations from other Virginians including the Chichleys.
John Jeffreys, of St. Celement East Cheap, London, aged 40, swore in
depositions in 1656-7 that he had been a Virginia merchant for several years.
He was actually born about 1614, became an alderman, and died s.p. 5 Nov. 1688,
aged 74, buried in St. Andrew Undershaft in a vault by the Communion table. He
was son of Edward Jeffreys of Baylywyn ydwr in Lhewell/Llywyl, Brecons., who
died Feb. 1642, by his wife Agnest, daughter of Watkin David Lloyd, gent.
John left two nephews who received his estate, sons of his brother Watkyn
Jeffreys (who d. 10 Mar. 1684/5), Sir Jeffrey Jeffreys, citizen of London,
Sheriff of London and Middlesex in 1699, alderman, MP, d. 25 Oct. 1709, bur. in
his incle's vault), leaving by his wife Sarah Dawes daughters and two sons,
Edward and Nicholas; and John Jeffreys, of London, merchant, MP, d. 20 Oct.
1715, who left, by his wife Elizabeth Sturt, an only son John Jeffreys. In
1720, Edward Jeffreys, Esq., held the rights to land that had belonged to
ROchard Jones's wife Frances (Bladwi) (Townsend).
Doug, would you at least let us know if this is covered in your book, or if
not, why (has it been disproven)? That would seem the collegial and scholarly
thing to do.
Paul
Jeffery A. Duvall
Thanks again for all the information. It appears to me that there are
actually four Cadwallader Jones' within the first three generations of this
family. We have Cadwallader Jones (d. 1672) who is the father of Richard
Jones (d. 1651/2 in VA) by an unknown first wife and of Cadwallader Jones
(ca. 1654-1692) of Cameley by his second wife Anne Bluet.
Then there are Lt. Col. Cadwallader Jones (b. ca. 1652/3, Virginia and d.
aft. 1698/9) of Virginia (and later the Bahamas) who was the son of Richard
Jones and the widow Frances Baldwin Townsend, and his first cousin Rev.
Cadwallader Jones (1688-1721), son of Cadwallader Jones of Cameley and his
wife Elizabeth Creswick, who was the Vicar of Ubley, Somerset in 1716.
The dates for the Jones listed in Gary Boyd Roberts RD500, are as follows
(based on the de Couet article):
-Cadwallader Jones (ca. 1654-1692) of Cameley m. Elizabeth Creswick
-William Jones (1685-1748) m. Martha Smith (her sister, Suzanna was married
to William's brother Bluet Jones)
-John Jones (1708-1772) m. Hannah Francis
It is this last fellow, John Jones, who immigrated to New England.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Reedpcgen
> Thanks again for all the information. It appears to me that there are
>actually four Cadwallader Jones' within the first three generations of this
>family.
>We have Cadwallader Jones (d. 1672) who is the father of Richard
>Jones (d. 1651/2 in VA) by an unknown first wife and of Cadwallader Jones
>(ca. 1654-1692) of Cameley by his second wife Anne Bluet.
Thanks for the dates of William and John Jones.
Doesn't the MI of Cadwallader Jones of Cameley (d. 1692) state that he was
eldest son of Cadwallader Jones who married Anne Blewett/Bluett? ["filii natu
maxmi Cadwallader Jones de Grenham in Agro Somersetensi"] That would mean
Richard could not be his elder brother, unless Richard were illegitimate.
It looks on the surface of it like we are dealing with two sets of Cadwallader
Joneses, one in Devon (a London merchant?), the other in Somerset who married
Anne Bluet (also of London, Esquire). What is known of the estate/probate of
Cadwallader who died in 1672?
I have seen nothing to connect the Cadwallader Jones who purchased Ley in Devon
with the Cadwallader Jones who married Anne Bluett, unless there are statements
in Chancery Proceedings, etc., regarding his indebtedness, which provide the
link. It's been a long time since I looked at the genealogies of these
Virginia Joneses.
There is info on A2A which verifies that it was Anne Bluett who married
Cadwallader Jones, Sr.:
http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/search/docframe.asp?i=0&stylesheet=xsl\A2A_com.x
sl&com=1
SANFORD FAMILY OF NYMEHEAD, PERSONAL AND ESTATE PAPERS
Catalogue Ref. DD\SF
FILE - Counterpart lease for 99 years and life in reversion - ref. DD\SF/2305
- date: 15 May 1665
\_ [from Scope and Content] Cadwallader Jones of Greeneham, esq., and Anne
his wife, (one of daughters and coheirs of John Bluett, late of Holcombe Rogus,
esq., dec'd), John Gifford of Wellington, Edward Denham of East Bagborough,
John Langdon of Chipstable and John Brooke of Aishbrittle, gent., feoffees and
Trustees of said Cadwallader Jones and Anne his wife
FILE - Counterpart lease for 99 years and 3 lives - ref. DD\SF/2308 - date:
19 Oct 1648
\_ [from Scope and Content] Cadwallader Jones of City of London, esq., and
Anne his wife to George Lippencott of Culmstock, clothier, mess. and ten. with
appurts. in Culmstock, parcel of manor of Henager
SLADE (MAUNSEL)
Catalogue Ref. DD\SL
FILE - Deeds concerning the descent of the manor, borough and hundred of North
Petherton - ref. DD\SL/5 - date: 1659-1768
\_ [from Scope and Content] Ann = Cadwallader Jones
FILE - North Petherton deeds - ref. DD\SL/16 - date: 1570-1674
\_ [from Scope and Content] Manor of North Petherton (Lessors:
Hon.Robt.Wallop of Farley Wallop, co.Southton., esq., Henry Wallop, esq., son
and heir app. of Robt.W., and Dorothy Wallop (wife of Henry and a dau. and
coheir. of John Bluett of Holcombe Rogus, esq., decd.), 1652(2); Cadwallader
Jones of Greenham, esq., and wife Anne, 1653; Sir John Sydenham of Brympton,
bart., 1674). 1652-74
SANFORD FAMILY OF NYMEHEAD, PERSONAL AND ESTATE PAPERS
Catalogue Ref. DD\SF
FILE - Final Agreements Betw. Thos. Turner, gent. & Chris. Davenport, gent.
plts. & Cadwallader Jones, esq.,John Brooke & John Jones, gent.,deforts. - ref.
DD\SF/1272, 1273 - date: 1685
FILE - Common Recovery - ref. DD\SF/1274 - date: 1685
\_ [from Scope and Content] John Sanford, esq. & Peter Kerslake, dem.
against Thos. Turner, gent., Chris. Davenport, gent., Cadwallader Jones, esq.,
& w. Eliz., John Langdon, John Brooke & John Jones, vouchees
Paul
Jeffery A. Duvall
that specifically links the Cadwallader Jones who purchased the manor of Ley
in Devon to the Cadwallader Jones who married Anne Bluet. For the most
part, the purchase is just included with a list of other events in the life
of (a?) Cadwallader Jones...So, it may very well be that two different (but
more or less contemporary) Cadwallader Joneses have been merged into one.
Which, unfortunately, means that my Cadwallader Jones (i.e., the one who
purchased Ley) looses all claim to a connection to Rhirid Flaidd (at least
as far as I can tell)...
Perhaps I need to look more closely at the Jeffreys family?
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Reedpcgen
>Perhaps I need to look more closely at the Jeffreys family?
>
If you saw my post on them, you get a good outline of the family. There are
more details in LeNeve's Pedigrees of Knights (Harleian Society, v. 8) and
Jones's History of Brecknockshire (at least for those other than Sir Robert
Jeffreys, who was a poor boy from Cornwall).
I think the chief association between the Jeffreys (both groups) and Jones was
one of creditor. Sir Robert Jeffreys was apparently born a poor boy, and rose
to be Lord Mayor of London through such dealings.
The other group of Jeffreys (John, Jeffrey) were tobacco merchants, and owners
of ships, directly involved in Virginia who also lent money to people in
Virginia, mortgaging their lands (including Sir Henry Chichley, etc.). Thus,
they took on many debts, etc. It would appear from the interest that they
received from Richard Jones's holdings that he was indebted to the eldest John
Jeffreys. But by that time Cadwallader Jones of Virginia was able to patent
large tracts of land and establish himself, so no great loss.
I see no indication of a blood relationship between these Jeffreys and
Cadwallader Jones. HOWEVER, perhaps Richard Jones, a London merchant married
in Virginia about 1652, was born about 1625. It is just possibly believable
that he was a younger brother of Cadwallader Jones who married, about 1642,
Anne Bluet (when she was a young ward of the crown), and that he purchased the
manor of Ley. PERHAPS he left a right of reversion in the transaction (i.e.,
if his issue died, remaining interest was to go to his brother Richard and his
issue, including Cadwallader, Richar'd son and heir). It COULD BE that Sir
Robert Jeffreys was trying to cover his bases after the death of Cadwallader
Jones, Sr., (the Virginia release was apparently not until 1681 - I have yet to
check the original - and so after his death) and contacted all parties involved
for their release. So there still MIGHT be a connection between these
Cadwallader Jones, you'd just miss the Bluet ancestry.
In either case, it would appear that the Cadwallader Jones, Sr[s]., was/were
London men, and the fact that the crown married a wealthy female ward, eldest
coheir, to Cadwallader Jones at a very early age, would indicate he came from
(a) respectable ancestry, and (b) had money, or prospects, having been educated
at Gray's Inn or the like.
As difficult as the trail seems, London would be the next place to check, and
perhaps the lawsuits ca. 1648, etc., which apparently dealt with Cadwallader
Jones's indebtedness. We know the Cadwallader who was attached to the manor of
Ley was indebted, and lost it, so such lawsuits would seem to definitely
connect to him.
Doug, HAS THIS LINE BEEN INCLUDED IN YOUR BOOK?
A simple, collegial yes or no would suffice, even if you will not provide any
details until the book is purchased or one of the many members of the group who
have prepaid are willing to share the information they receive when it finally
does go to the printer (I see at the FHL that you're still working on such
basic things as the Earl of Kent, so have no idea when it will go to press).
Paul
AGeorgeSand
more than you would jump to another, or you'll muddy your line.