Lodewijk Salaboert ancestral to bonnie prince charles

[ray montgomery]

To whom it may concern,
Lodewijk Salaboert Gov of Bruges whom married Adriane Cobrysse and had a daughter named Catherine Salaboert whom married Sir Thomas Molyneaux. Catherine was born circa 1531.
I have searched high and low for data on this family both the husband and the wife and I have found nothing. Is there some learned Individual such and the most awesome Leo that can point me in some direction or data base to search for this family.
Thank you!
Ray

[Wjhonson]

We have no primary document which states when Catherine was born, not what her age might be at any particular time

http://books.google.com/books?id=1-NrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA132

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Wjhonson]

http://books.google.com/books?id=9qJVAAAAcAAJ&dq=Stabeort&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true












-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas <can...@netspeed.com.au>
To: ray montgomery <monte...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 10, 2013 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: Lodewijk Salaboert ancestral to bonnie prince charles


Dear Ray,

Where did you find Adriane Cobrysse as wife of Lodewijk Salaboert?

There are places where Lodewijk and his daughter are mentioned, but without
any additional information. Gerald Paget (M 7448 and N 14893) for one. Also
I have spotted several different spellings of the surname Stabeort -
Salaboert - Stabcort - Salaboethe.

I think that there must be better records about this family but they may not
have been translated into English and made available. I hope someone has
access to these sources.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

[al...@mindspring.com]

See


Jan, post to SGM dated 30 Jan 2008, Thomas Molyneaux and Catharine Slabbaert.


At least that is where I saw it.

Doug

[Wjhonson]

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2008-02/1201861764



Slabbaert

-----Original Message-----
From: alden <al...@mindspring.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 10:25 am
Subject: Re: Lodewijk Salaboert ancestral to bonnie prince charles

[Volucris]

Thomas Molinet, an English merchant, born in Calais, established
himself in Bruges in about 1560. He married the sister of the
Calvinist cloth merchant, Godefroid Slabbaert. (Ludo Vandamme, 'De
socio-professionele recutering van de reformatie te Brugge,
1566-1567' (PhD thesis), Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven, Leuven,
1982.)

Thomas Molinel, "anglus" [Englishman], married Catharine Slabbaert in
the Parish of Our Lady, Bruges, in 1565.

The baptisms of two children of Thomas Molinel in the Parish of Our
Lady appear in 'Pariochieregisters Brugge, Geboorten 1565-1600' on
page 156:

Catharina Molinet, baptised 12 July 1572 at O.L.Vr.2de
Thomas Molinet, baptised 02 April 1574 at O.L.Vr.2de

The baptisms of Daniel, Samuel and Alicia are not listed in this
register for the period 1565-1600.

Etc. etc.
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=68862

Hans Vogels

Op donderdag 11 april 2013 00:58:46 UTC+2 schreef ray montgomery het volgende:

[John Dobson]

Vandamme has also written a separate article or book-chapter on Godefroid Slabbaert, which I have not personally seen:

L. Vandamme, "Calvinisme in het Brugse koopmansmilieu: het consistorielid Godefroot Slabbaert," in Brugge in de Geuzentijd (Bruges, 1982), pp. 12-34.

There is an item mentioning Thomas Molinet and his wife in Ecclesiae Londino-Batavae Archivum, vol. 3, pt. 1 [http://archive.org/details/ecclesiaelondino31austuoft], p. 968:

[item no.] 1298. Leyden, Sunday, 17 April 1594 [N.S.]. Maerten de Wulf, son of Cornelis de Wulf, born at Bruges, requests the Consistory of the London-Dutch Church, to enquire after his sister Catelyne, who has resided several years with Mr Tomaes Molienet, who married a member of the family of Godefroodt Slabbaert, and had a daughter named Ester, when he lived at Bruges, on "den dyuer." [Original in Dutch.]

In Holandt inde stadt van Leyden in de bogaert stech, desen 17 Aprii 1594.
Addressed: Desen brief sij gegeuen te Lonnen an de Duijsche gemeente.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson


>>> Volucris <jcp.v...@bbhmail.nl> 11-Apr-13 12:43 PM >>>

[Volucris]

According to this:
Aan de Eiermarkt (in Brugge) woonde Godefroot Slabbaert. Hij ging als een van de weinige Bruggelingen in op de eis om voor de Raad van Beroerten te verschijnen. Hij werd in het Brugse Steen gevangengezet, maar wist met hulp van drie bevrijders te ontsnappen. De namen van de bevrijders werden bekend en zij lieten het leven. Nakomelingen van Slabbaert wonen nu in de Verenigde Staten en Australië en kwamen via familiekundig onderzoek bij hun verre voorvader in Brugge terecht.
http://www.refdag.nl/kerkplein/kerknieuws/calvinistisch_brugge_1_262233

descendants of this Godefroot Slabbaert now live in the United States and in Australia. Trough genealogical research they arrived at their ancestor in Brugge. That kind of implies that there might be somewere some research or a publication on The Slabbaert family available.

Hans Vogels


Op donderdag 11 april 2013 20:06:03 UTC+2 schreef John Dobson het volgende:

[Leo van de Pas]

I read the several attachments, and Adriane Cobrysse as mother of Catherine
seems very likely. However the remark "This would appear to be Catherine
Slabbaert (Salaboert) with her three brothers and parents, though it is not
proven."

Where to go from here?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "ray montgomery" <monte...@hotmail.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 8:58 AM

[Wjhonson]

I think you know that she was being cautious.
The names of these men are all attested as cloth traders
The only possibilities would be the father, or his own son (of the same name) who just happened to have children of the same names as his own siblings.

I think the first case is by far the more probable.
But I note that she did not specify *what* this notarial record was of exactly.
That is, what was the act that was being documented?

-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas <can...@netspeed.com.au>

[ray montgomery]

I am thinking, (look out as I do that occasionally) that this is the family as statistically it would be almost impossible for there to be two families that are involved in the cloth trade with Thomas Molyneaux. So what I am looking for is their families on back.
Thank you to all that have answered!!!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Ray

To: can...@netspeed.com.au; monte...@hotmail.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Lodewijk Salaboert ancestral to bonnie prince charles

From: wjho...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 17:47:32 -0400

[Wjhonson]

Hold on a step.
The notarial document which mentions all these names does *not* mention Thomas Molyneux.
It just mentions the names of the parents, and siblings, no in-laws.

What I was suggesting is that since we know the names of the brothers at least, that it is far more likely that this is that family, rather than another one generation down, with the same names that we already know were active in the cloth trade as brothers....

Or something.

[John Dobson]

The posting by Jan Kinloss at
http://www.refdag.nl/kerkplein/kerknieuws/calvinistisch_brugge_1_262233
mentioned by Hans Vogels states, in part:

"Ludovic Slabbaert, married to Adriane Cobrysse with four children:
Adriaen, Louis, Catheline and Godefroit. Ludovic's second wife was
Godelieve Wouters."

It is interesting to compare this information with the lengthy
Gailliard chapter in J. Gailliard, Bruges et Le Franc; ou, leur
magistrature et leur noblesse, 5 vols. + Suppl. (Bruges, 1857-1864), 5:
392-461, at p. 436. I will not place quotation marks around this
passage, as it already contains quotation marks around material taken
from a manuscript genealogy by Corneille Gailliard:

Jean Gailliard "maria Dame Goddelieve Wouters, fille du Sieur Mathieu
... trespassa le 2me jour de Janvier 1558, et la mesme Dame Goddelieve
Wouters ayant restee veuve pendant 3 ans 4 mois, se maria alors au Sieur
Lowys Slabaert." Jean Gailliard eut:
1. Jean Gailliard, qui "a son retour d'un voyage a Dantzig mourut sur
mer l'an 1568."
2. Corneille Gailliard, qui "mourut sur mer et est enterre a l'ile de
Nardo en Noorwege, le 17me 7bre 1568."
3. Cornélie Gailliard "espouse de Monsr Augustin Cloribus."
4. Claire Gailliard, qui "espousa le 5 Fevrier 1556, Jacques Cobrisse,
fils du seigneur Jacques Cobrisse, et de Jasperinne Ylaert. ... Claire
fut veuve en 1594."

Assuming the correctness of this account, Ludovic Slabbaert m. (2)
about May 1561, Godelieve Wouters, widow of Jean Gailliard (who d. 2
January 1558).

Despite an apparent slip in Gailliard's book at vol. 4, p. 61, where
this family is mentioned in passing, this information is consistent with
the chapter on the Cobrysse family in the Supplement, pp. 349-75, at p.
351, and also with an earlier and much briefer account of the same
family in François Louis Van Dycke, Recueil héraldique, avec des notices
généalogiques et historiques sur un grand nombre de familles nobles et
patriciennes de la ville et du Franconat de Bruges (Bruges, 1851)
[http://books.google.ca/books?id=nrJJAAAAcAAJ], p. 106. These works give
the early portion of the Cobrysse pedigree as:

Jacques Cobrysse [I] = Adrienne Lybaers [or Lybaert]
Jacques Cobrysse [II] = (as her first husband) Gasparine Ylaert,
daughter of Jacques Ylaert and Marie Feye
Jacques Cobrysse [III] = 1556, Claire Gailliard, daughter of Jean
Gailliard and Godelieve Wouters [who later became the second wife of
Ludovic Slabbaert].

For children of this last couple, Adrienne Cobrysse served as a
baptismal sponsor in August 1558, and Louis Slabbaert as a sponsor in
December 1562. It thus seems highly likely that Adriane Cobrysse, the
first wife of Ludovic Slabbaert, belonged to this family, most likely as
a sister of Jacques Cobrysse [II] since her granddaughter, Catharina
Molinet, was baptized 12 July 1572 (per the posting by Jan Kinloss).

According to Gailliard, Jacques Cobrysse [II] and Gasparine Ylaert were
the parents of Marie Cobrysse, who was married in March 1572 in the
church of Saint Gilles, Bruges, to Antoine de Mel. However, Louis P. De
Boer, whose work must always be used with caution, claims in
"Pre-American notes on old New Netherland families: De Mille,"
Genealogical Magazine of New Jersey, 3 (1928): 58-63, reprinted in
Genealogies of New Jersey Families from the Genealogical Magazine of
New Jersey, 1: 50-55, that Maria was a daughter of Jacob Cobrysse and
Adriana Liebaert, and states that she and her husband were "most likely"
ancestors of the De Mille family of New Netherland. If true, this would
provide a remarkable kinship for the De Mille family.

Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson

>>> Volucris <jcp.v...@bbhmail.nl> 11-Apr-13 1:50 PM >>>

[José]

Op donderdag 11 april 2013 00:58:46 UTC+2 schreef ray montgomery het volgende:

Hi
This was discussed here earlier:
From: <janki...@yahoo.com.au>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval >
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: 31.1.2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Thomas Molyneux and Catharine Slabbaert
I was able to visit the City Archives of Bruges recently and have since corresponded with staff of the archive regarding Thomas Molyneux and his wife. I have been able to collect the following information, which I am sure will be of great interest to anyone who has read Oxford University's 'Dictionary of National Biography' entry for Thomas Molyneux, particularly in relation to the identity of his wife, 'Catherine Stabeort, daughter of an opulent burgomaster'.

Thomas Molinet, an English merchant, born in Calais, established himself in Bruges in about 1560. He married the sister of the Calvinist cloth merchant, Godefroid Slabbaert. (Ludo Vandamme, 'De socio-professionele recutering van de reformatie te Brugge, 1566-1567' (PhD thesis), Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven, Leuven, 1982.)

Thomas Molinel, "anglus" [Englishman], married Catharine Slabbaert in the Parish of Our Lady, Bruges, in 1565.

The baptisms of two children of Thomas Molinel in the Parish of Our Lady appear in 'Pariochieregisters Brugge, Geboorten 1565-1600' on page 156:

Catharina Molinet, baptised 12 July 1572 at O.L.Vr.2de Thomas Molinet, baptised 02 April 1574 at O.L.Vr.2de

The baptisms of Daniel, Samuel and Alicia are not listed in this register for the period 1565-1600.

Thomas Molinel/Molinet, silk and hops trader, is mentioned three times in the City Archives list of law suits :

1569: "Joos van Grijspere c. Thomas Molinel", 1180/26/1569 1569: "Ghysbrecht de Sluutere c. Thomas Molinel, Jan van Heede", "Thomas Molinel was een Engelse zijdehandelaar." 1192/26/1569 1570: "Molinet, vanden Heede", 1320/28/1570

He is also mentioned in the survey of civil sentences: on 09 February 1563 he asks his agent, Matheeus de Queestere, to plead for him in Antwerp in a dispute against Anthoine le Couvreur.

Catharine's father, Ludovic, does not appear in the list of burgomasters or aldermen of Bruges for the period 1530-1580, however it does seem that he was an important figure in the cloth trade in Bruges. In a list of committee members of the cloth crafts, Ludovic Slabbaert is mentioned several times as "dean". Also:

"Half March 1563 he [Godefroot Slabbaert] became a member of the cloth cutters craft, in which his father Loys was engaged for years and years. Loys (Ludovic) died between May 1563 and May 1564. Both brothers of Godefroot, Loys and Adriaen, were also members of this craft and even his sister Catharine, as wife of the English Calvinistic merchant Thomas Molinet, was a member of the same professional environment." (Email from the City of Bruges Archive citing Ludo Vandamme's licentiate's thesis about the Calvinistic period in Bruges (1566-1584).)

In another article by Ludo Vandamme ('Calvinisme in het Brugse koopmansmilieu: het consistorielid Godefroot Slabbaert") mention is made of Thomas Molinet: born in Calais and settled in Bruges in 1560, he was a convinced Calvinist, lived in a large house on the Djiver (an important street in the middle of Bruges) and carried on trade with France, England and the Baltic countries.
Finally, in the City Archives 'notarial documents' for the period 1563-1565 mention a Ludovic Slabbaert, married to Adriane Cobrysse with four children: Adriaen, Louis, Catheline and Godefroit. Ludovic's second wife was Godelieve Wouters. This would appear to be Catharine Slabbaert with her three brothers and parents, though it is not proven.

I have more information from the archive but it is in Flemish, so if anyone can assist with translation, please let me know. And if anyone gets the chance to visit Bruges, maybe we can follow up some of this information and seek out further sources.
[end of quote]
Hope this helps
José

[Volucris]

A slightly different pedigree can be found at:
http://familytrees.genopro.com/Nand/CBDG-Public/

Hans Vogels


Op vrijdag 12 april 2013 05:57:53 UTC+2 schreef John Dobson het volgende:

[hsone]

The Molyneux descendants of Thomas and Catherine came to be associated with Castle Dillon in County Armagh. Sir Thomas Molyneux, 1st Baron Molyneux of Castle Dillon (1661-1733) was married to Catherine Howard of Shelton, County Wicklow. Their daughter Jane (1704-1788) was wife of Rev. Arthur St. George (1681-1772), son of Henry St. George MP and his wife Anne Hatfield. Anne Hatfield was daughter of Ridgely Hatfield, Mayor of Dublin and his wife Abigail Bollardt (d. 1656) of Antwerp.

I realize my question falls outside the medieval period, but how common are Belgian wives for those associated with Ireland during this time?

Many thanks,

HS

[John Dobson]

It's not as early as the Molyneux-Slabbaert marriage, but last year, John Higgins pointed out the following interesting connection (see http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-09/1348376757):

"Paget numbers 2421 and 2422, Jan van der Eycken and Barbe van Offhuys are ancestral to the current Viscount Gormanston through the related Prestons who were Viscounts Taragh [or Tara]."

Higgins cites sources which show that a great-granddaughter of this couple, Claire van der Eycken, m. in January 1613, the Hon. Thomas Preston (fl. 1641-1654).

Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson

>>> hsone <seal...@gmail.com> 12-Apr-13 12:57 PM >>>

[John Paul Bradford]

I've just read through the valuable information and insights given in the lengthy conversation given here regarding this man and his kin in Bruges. I would love to know if there has been any additional insights since 2013. Although this Corona Virus Pandemic time may have hindered research in archives, this has been a boon time for me the last few months as I have scoured the Internet for refreshes to Thomas and his Slabbaert relatives. It seems he was questioned by the commission established to determine what happened in Bruges in 1566 when the town got off lightly during the Beeldenstorm. This comes from Troubles Religieux du XVIme Siecle Au Quartier de Bruges 1566-1568 par Le Chanoine A.C. De Schrevel, Bruges, 1894 which is available on line. Seems he was considered one of the leading heretics in the city at this time.

God bless

J.P. Bradford