1146-1304 Gap in TIREL/TYRELLs of Essex (Pt 2 of 2)
DadG...@aol.com
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Generation 9
"Sir James, son of Hugh and Jane
Knighted before Ardes, 1380
Married Margaret daughter of Sir William Heron"
[As previously noted, OFB points out that in 1305 there is a James Tyrell in
Essex holding property in Buttsbury, "one of the places which subsequently
recur in later generations", and who, therefore, was apparently related to
the later Tyrells of Heron. In 1318, there is a record implying a family
relationship between a James Tyrell and a John Heron, presumably the initial
heir of Heron Hall from Sir William Heron. Heron Hall later shows up in 1363
as clearly being held by a Thomas Tyrell. This supports the proposition that
it was this same James Tyrell who married Margaret, the daughter of Sir
William Heron and the heir of her brother John, and who was closely related
to the Thomas Tyrell of 1363.
The marriage of James Tyrell and Margaret Heron was supposed to have occured
'in the reign of Edward 2 or Edward 3' which, as OFB points out, is a
relatively wide window extending from 1307 to 1377. The James Tyrell of 1305
is recorded with a wife Alice in an initial document of that year, but no
wife is mentioned in two subsequent documents later that same year. Although
not definitive, this permits the interpretation that James remarried Margaret
Heron after the death of his first wife, Alice, sometime after early 1305 and
before 1318. Thus, the limited primary documentation does support the
traditional assertion that a James Tyrell and Margaret Heron were
progenitors, or at least related to the progenitors, of the Heron branch of
the family.
However, OFB points out that the chronological considerations and inferential
evidence indicate that the James of 1305 was born around 1265-70 and may have
died about 1343 or 1344. Clearly, this could not be the same individual
referred to by JHT as being Knighted in 1380. OFB relates evidence inferring
the existence of two James, the one who probably died in 1343-44, and his
presumed son, James 'the younger'. OFB indicates that the inferential
evidence as to the possible James 'the younger' stops in 1345. It can,
therefore, shed no light on the possibility that he might have subsequently
been knighted.]
Generation 10
"Sir Walter of Heron, son of James and Margaret
Married Anna, daughter of Sir William Swynford"
[OFB does show at least one Walter as being a descendant of the James Tyrell
of 1305 and Margaret Heron, but several generations later as either the
brother or son of Thomas Tyrell 'the younger.' OFB refers to the analysis of
G.A. Moriarty in NEHGR, Jan 1955 as being a "scholarly and objective
assessment" which, among other things, displaces Walter in the 'traditional'
pedigree. OFB does not fully agree with all of Moriarty's suggestions, but
does concur that there is no primary record of a Walter, son of James of 1305
and Margaret Heron. OFB does not show a Anna Swynford, but does indicate
that at about the time of the Walter Tyrell who married Eleanor Flambard (see
below), the arms of Swinford were picked up by the Tyrells. Sir John, the
probable son of that later Walter married a second time to a Catherine of
unknown family. OFB speculates that this Catherine might have been the
source of either the Swinford arms or the Borgate arms previously mentioned.]
Generation 11
"Sir Thomas of Heron, son of Walter and Anna
Married Elizabeth, daughter of John Flambert"
[OFB points out that there are numerous references to a Thomas 'the elder'
and a Thomas 'the younger', his presumed son between 1332 and 1355. There is
an additional isolated reference to a Thomas 'the elder' in 1360 and no
further distinctions of this nature until the Thomas Tyrell who held Heron
Hall died sometime between February 1381 and March 1382. Moriarty deduced
the existence of three Tyrells named Thomas from this evidence, but OFB
interprets the evidence differently and concludes there were only two --
Thomas 'the elder', probably born before 1290 and died about 1354/55, and
Thomas 'the younger' (presumably son of 'the elder'), who was knighted in
1362, was the holder of Heron Hall and was born not later than about 1310.
OFB acknowledges that there is no direct evidence that Thomas 'the elder' is
the son of James of 1305. Yet, OFB prefers this interpretation to the
possibility that Thomas 'the elder' might be brother to James of 1305 despite
possible chronological complications. There is a record of Thomas 'the
elder' owning land in 1332, with the inference that a Thomas 'the younger'
must have existed and been of an age to also own land at that point in time,
requiring the distinction to be made. This would suggest that Thomas 'the
younger' was born not later than about 1310/11 and that his presumed father,
Thomas 'the elder' was born about 1290 or earlier. This, in turn, would
suggest a birthdate of 1270 or earlier for Thomas 'the elder's' father. If
that father was James, James would have been about 73 at his death in 1343.
While this is certainly possible, OFB points out that it assumes minimum
generations of 20 years each for the birth of both Thomas 'the elder' and
Thomas 'the younger.' If either generation is significantly longer, the
presumed lifespan of James could get uncomfortably long.
OFB states that assuming Thomas 'the elder' to be a brother of James, rather
than his son, could worsen this problem by moving Thomas 'the elder's'
probable birthdate back a generation to be contemporaneous with that of James
while still having Thomas 'the elder' die in 1355, 12 years later than James.
While I generally find OFB to be impressively researched and well reasoned,
this particular argument strikes me as curious. Unless I have missed
something in this information-rich book (a definite possibility) or unless
OFB has additional information that he has uncharacteristically not spelled
out, it would appear that OFB has overlooked the fact that if Thomas 'the
elder' were brother of James instead of his son, this relationship would
relieve the necessity of assuming that James was born in 1270 or earlier.
Based solely on his 1305 land holdings, James could have been born in the
early 1280s. If a brother Thomas 'the elder' were born wihin a few years of
that time and then died in 1355, the resulting lifespan of said Thomas would
still be possible. Furthermore, there is also the possibility that Thomas
the 'elder' could have been a considerably younger brother of James if their
father was the Hugh of Mannington who died in 1313.
Finally, I wonder if the distinction between Thomas 'the elder' and Thomas
'the younger' was initially made and subsequently repeated because, for a
time, they were both residing on or near the Heron property and some
convenient discriminator other than locale was needed. This would allow for
the possibility of James and Thomas 'the elder' being brothers and Thomas
'the younger' being a son of James who was named for his uncle. Are any
members of the list aware of a documented precedent for such use of the
'elder' and 'younger' notations? At the end of the day, it would appear that
all that can be stated with some likelihood is that James of 1305, Thomas
'the elder' and Thomas 'the younger' were closely related.
As far as Elizabeth Flambert goes, the supposed spouse of Thomas according to
JHT, OFB does identify an Eleanor Flambard, spouse of a Walter Tyrell who
succeeded to Sir Thomas Tyrell's estates, and states that she had been
"wrongly placed' as a second wife of Sir Thomas Tyrell in the 'traditional'
pedigree.]
Generation 12
"Sir John of Heron, son of Thomas and Elizabeth
Sheriff of Essex and Hereford, 1423. Treasurer of Household to Henry VI.
Present at Agincourt. died 1437
Married Margaret or Alice, daughter and co-heiress of Sir William de
Coggeshall"
[OFB characterizes Sir John of Heron (ca1370/80 - 1437) as ". . . a
much-reported figure for the last twenty-five or so years of his life, and
from his time succeeding generations are reasonably well documented and
authenticated." However, before we get to John, OFB reports one final
deviation from the JHT and 'traditional' pedigrees. The will of John's
brother, Edward, proves that John is son of a Walter Tyrell and Eleanor
Flambard, not the son of Thomas 'the younger.' OFB further notes that ". . .
there is good reason to believe that Sir Thomas was succeeded in his estates
by a Walter." There is some confusion, however, as to which one, since there
are two Walter's at this time period. OFB refers to one as "Walter of Tweed"
(a reference to records regarding the Tweed ferry), who died by 1395, to
distinguish him from a different Walter of Essex recorded as late as 1406.
According to OFB, there are three plausible relationships between Thomas 'the
younger', Walter of Tweed, Walter of Essex and John which are all consistent
with the documentary evidence. OFB prefers the one in which Walter of Tweed
is son of Thomas 'the younger' and father of the Walter who died in 1406, who
in turn is father of Sir John. However, OFB conceeds that alternate
interpretations placing Walter of Tweed off the direct line of descent are
equally supportable.]
From this point on, the JHT and OFB pedigrees generally show agreement. A
graphic representation of OFB's suggested pedigree bracketing "The Missing
Period", as well as speculation within it, is shown below. Since many
browsers default to a fixed-font display, the chart has been set up in the
Monaco font, 12 pt size, with a 72-character-wide line length. If you
experience "wordwrap" or displacement problems with the chart, you may be
able to reset the "Preferences" of your browser to a fixed font or copy the
chart into a word processing program and set the font to Monaco to see the
original spacing.
Richard de Clare md. Rohese Giffard
(ca 1035 - 1095) I (1034 - 1113)
I
I
WALTER III de Tirel md. 1080-85 ADELICE de Clare
(ca 1160 - bef 1130) I (? - abt 1138)
I
HUGH I de Tirel
(ca 1080 - bef 1130)
I
_______________________
I I
I I
HUGH II de Tirel WALTER IV de Tirel
(ca 1105-10 - ?) (ca 1100-05 - 1130s)
(sold Langham 1146/8)
?
?
******************************************************
START OF "THE MISSING PERIOD"
?
?
(possibly)
HUGH III of Kingsworthy, Hampshire
(? - ca 1170)
?
?
?
?
WARIN of Itringham, Norfolk md. Mabel
(bef 1180 - aft 1214)
I
I
WALTER of Kent
(involved in 1210 litigation)
I
I
WALTER II of Kent
(1224-5 owner of mill in Dartford)
I
I
possibly another unknown generation
I
I
WALTER of Suffolk
(involved in 1275 litigation)
I
I
_________________________________
I I
I I
HUGH of Mannington, Norfolk WALTER of Mannington
(bef 1267 - 1313)
?
?
? END OF "THE MISSING PERIOD"
? (Borgate marriage may be in period)
*****************************************************
(possibly) Sir William Heron
? I
? ________________
? I I
? I I
JAMES Tyrel of Essex md. (1) Alice (2) Margaret John
(ca 1265-70 - 1343/4) ? (?-1305) Heron Heron
? (md. bef 1318)
?
?
THOMAS 'the elder' Tyrell md. Alice Blaund
(? bef 1290 - 1354/5) I (dau. of Thomas Blaund
I & Agnes)
I
I
THOMAS 'the younger' Tyrell md. Alice d'Adeleigh
(bef 1310 - 1382) I (died before Aug 1398)
I
I
WALTER 'of Tweed' Tyrell
(? - 1395) I
I John Flambard &
I Elisabeth
I I
WALTER Tyrell md. Eleanor Flambard
(? - aft 1406) I (? - 1422)
I (she married 2nd
I Nicholas Haulte)
I
Sir JOHN Tyrell md.(1) Alice
(ca 1370/80 –1437) Coggeshall
(died 1422;
dau of Sir
William
Coggeshall
& wife,
Antiocha,
thought to
be daughter
of Sir John
Hawkwood)
(2) Catherine ?
(possibly
Swinford or
Borgate)
Please accept my apologies for the length of this post. Since the references
in the archive to this family were limited, I thought it best to err on the
side of too much information, rather than too little. I hope that some of
this information will prove interesting or useful to members of the list even
if it does not elicit new insights on my fundamental query, which is --- is
the "Missing Period" still missing or has the ancestry of the Tyrells of
Heron been clarified, possibly all the way back to the Regicide Walter III
Tirel, since the publication of OFB in 1982?
Key questions within that query include;
(1) Is there additional documentation as to the father of James Tyrell of
1305 (who was possibly born around 1265-70 and probably died around 1343/44)?
(2) If that father is the Hugh Tyrell of Mannington, has documentation been
found to identify the father of the Warin of Itringham who that Hugh's
ancestor?
(3) Have the Tyrell/Terrell marriages with Swynford and Borgate been
definitively located yet?
If the answer to any of these queries is yes, I would greatly appreciate the
citations to review the new evidence or interpretations.
Those of you with whom I have communicated directly in the past may note that
I am submitting this post from a new e-mail address. Feel free to use either
the old address or this new one for subsequent communications. I set up this
new address as a preemptive strike against possible SPAM. This is my first
post to the list and I am uncertain as to whether SPAM "address-trollers"
periodically monitor the list or the list archives for active addresses. A
recent post from a list member who expressed dismay over the receipt of 42
items of junk mail in one day has at least caused me some concern in that
regard. Accordingly, I intend to use this new address, DadG...@aol.com,
exclusively for postings to and from this list. Hopefully this will set up a
controlled experiment to ascertain whether or not this is an issue.
Thanks in advance for any comments you might choose to make on the subject
matter of this post and for the perseverance you have shown to read it to the
end.
John Stuart
DadG...@aol.com
David Collyer
> (possibly) Sir William Heron
> ? I
> ? ________________
> ? I I
> ? I I
>JAMES Tyrel of Essex md. (1) Alice (2) Margaret John
>(ca 1265-70 - 1343/4) ? (?-1305) Heron Heron
> ? (md. bef 1318)
I was wondering whether anyone would have any information which would
connect this John HERON of the early 1300s to one William HERON J.P. who
died 1562 at Addiscombe (later Adgestone) on the Isle of Wight, Hants.
There is a Monumental Brass for him there on which appears the HERON Coat
of Arms. This William is the forebear of the large HEARN family from the
IOW. His Gt Grandson was John HEARN(E) D.D. who matriculated from Magdalen
College, Oxford on 15 Dec 1592 and was ultimately Rector of Chale, IOW
from 1612 - 1648.
Many thanks for any help
David Collyer in Ballarat, Australia
DadG...@aol.com
The presumption behind the chart above is that John Heron died without
surviving male issue and his sister, Margaret, was his heir.
John Stuart
oliverbost...@gmail.com
> Dear Friends,
> > ? I
> > ? ________________
> > ? I I
> > ? I I
> >JAMES Tyrel of Essex md. (1) Alice (2) Margaret John
> >(ca 1265-70 - 1343/4) ? (?-1305) Heron Heron
> > ? (md. bef 1318)
>
> connect this John HERON of the early 1300s to one William HERON J.P. who
> died 1562 at Addiscombe (later Adgestone) on the Isle of Wight, Hants.
> There is a Monumental Brass for him there on which appears the HERON Coat
> of Arms. This William is the forebear of the large HEARN family from the
> IOW. His Gt Grandson was John HEARN(E) D.D. who matriculated from Magdalen
> College, Oxford on 15 Dec 1592 and was ultimately Rector of Chale, IOW
> from 1612 - 1648.
> Many thanks for any help
> David Collyer in Ballarat, Australia
Addiscombe is near Croydon, not on the Isle of Wight.
With best wishes, Oliver
Ian Goddard
nearly 20 years ago. I don't recognise the name so it's quite possible
that he's no longer reading the group.
(b) note he wrote Addiscombe (later Adgestone) on the Isle of Wight
Adgestone is indeed on the IoW as you can see here:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=459500&y=85500&z=120&sv=Adgestone&st=3&tl=Map+of+Adgestone,+Isle+of+Wight+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf
--
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