Ancestry of Jenkin Conway

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html and https://fabpedigree.com/s097/f162670.htm have different versions of the ancestry of Jenkin Conway, husband of Mary Herbert and father of Elizabeth Conway Blennerhassett. Which, if either, is the correct one?

[Mark Humphrys]

On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 2:43:59 PM UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html and https://fabpedigree.com/s097/f162670.htm have different versions of the ancestry of Jenkin Conway, husband of Mary Herbert and father of Elizabeth Conway Blennerhassett. Which, if either, is the correct one?

I wouldn't pay much attention to my line (at least, above Jenkin).
I simply haven't looked in any detail at the Conway tree above Jenkin.
I just threw in what "Black Jack" Blennerhassett (a Jenkin descendant) said in his "book" of genealogy around 1737:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Blennerhassett/black.jack.html#book
But Black Jack was sometimes wrong.
If anyone has a good source for the Conway tree above Jenkin, let me and Paulo know.
Mark Humphrys

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[John Higgins]

On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 6:43:59 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html and https://fabpedigree.com/s097/f162670.htm have different versions of the ancestry of Jenkin Conway, husband of Mary Herbert and father of Elizabeth Conway Blennerhassett. Which, if either, is the correct one?

The "fabpedigree" version can be disposed of quickly. There is a lengthy pedigree of the family of Conwy of Bodrhyddan in Archaeologia Cambrensis, 5th series, vol. 13 (1896). Page 44 shows Edward Conwy of Arrow and his son John Conwy of Ragley. Capt. Jenkin Conway is not listed in this pedigree.
https://archive.org/details/sim_archaeologia-cambrensis_1896-01_13_49/page/44/mode/2up

A variation of this supposed linkage is shown in the Stirnet website, where Capt. Jenkin Conway is placed as a brother of John Conwy of Ragley, saying that Jenkin is "probably of this generation". "Probably not", according to the pedigree cited above.

Perhaps the best source to be consulted may the article ""The Conways of Kerry", by "S.J.M.", (cited in the Humphrys website) from the Kerry Archaeological Magazine, vol. 5 no. 22 July 1920. I may be able to get a copy of this via inter-library loan.

BTW J. E. Griffith, Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families, p. 260 does not address this branch of the family of Conwy of Bodrhyddan. So Mark Humphrys can rule out this source, which was mentioned on his website.

Also Burke's Extinct Peerages (1883), mentioned on the website, does not address this line.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for this, John.

[Mark Humphrys]

I have totally re-done the page:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html
to show the new sources. And I found a few more.

It is clear now that Black Jack's claim is that Jenkin Conway of Co.Kerry is the grandson of Piers Conwy, or Peter Conway, Archdeacon of St. Asaph, who died 1532.
We need to see that 1920 article. I cannot find it online, even on JSTOR which has the issues up to 1918.
Will have to look at it in the NLI next time I am in there.
Mark

[John Higgins]

On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 12:43:55 PM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> I have totally re-done the page:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html
> to show the new sources. And I found a few more.
>
> It is clear now that Black Jack's claim is that Jenkin Conway of Co.Kerry is the grandson of Piers Conwy, or Peter Conway, Archdeacon of St. Asaph, who died 1532.
> We need to see that 1920 article. I cannot find it online, even on JSTOR which has the issues up to 1918.
> Will have to look at it in the NLI next time I am in there.
> Mark
> --
> *
>

Yes, I too had noticed that JSTOR doesn't go far enough to cover 1920.

I've submitted an ILL request for the article, and I think there's a pretty good chance that I can get it.

I'm preparing a post on a different source for this descent - stay tuned.

[John Higgins]

After some further research on the family of Conwy of Bodrhyddan, I made an interesting - and somewhat surprising – discovery. It appears that the descent of Capt. Jenkin Conway of Killorglin from the Conwys of Bodrhyddan, as shown in “Black Jack’s Book” on Mark Humphrys’ website, can be largely (although not entirely) corroborated by another source: Peter Bartrum’s Welsh Genealogies.

Mark notes on his website that the pedigree in “Black Jack’s Book” can be found in an 1872 book by Mary Agnes Hickman, Selections from Old Kerry Records. That book is available online her, with the Conway pedigree starting at page 50. https://archive.org/details/selectionsfromol00hick/page/50/mode/1up

The pedigree from the book is as follows (slightly different than what is shown on Mark’s website):
1. Sir Hugh Conway
2. Richard Conway; m. Alice, daughter of Sir Henry Torbock
3. Sir Henry Conway; m. Alice, daughter of Sir Henry Croniker
4. John Conway; m. Jane, daughter of Sir Richard Ratcliffe
5. Jenkin Conway; m. [illegible] daughter of Meredith
6. John Conway; m. Jane Stanley
7. Pierce Conway; m. Jane, daughter of Jenkin son of Llywelyn
8. Henry Conway; m. Grace Dry [sic]
9. Jenkin Conway [of Killorglin]; m. Mary Herbert

The family of Conwy of Bodrhyddan is covered by Bartrum’s Welsh Genealogies in a series of tables named Conwy 1 through Conwy 9. The tables can be found on the Genealogics database here (scroll down to see the later tables):
https://www.genealogics.org/showmedia.php?mediaID=17217

The pedigree from Bartrum is as follows (the name of the pertinent table is cited at the end of each line):
1. John ap Richard Conwy; m. Marsli ferch Maredudd [Conwy 1]
2. Jenkin Conwy; m. Elen ferch Sir Henry Torbox [Conwy 1]
3. John “Aer” Conwy; m. (2) Janet ferch Edmund Stanley [Conwy 1]
4. Piers Conwy; m. Jonet ferch Jenkin [Conwy 4]
5. Harry “Yr Aer” Conwy; m. Grace, daughter of Hugh Drihurst [sic] of Denbigh [Conwy 5]

The pedigree then ends with a list of the numerous children of the last couple - including a son Jenkin, who has the notation “Captain”. This is presumably Capt. Jenkin Conway of Killorglin.

Obviously there are some notable differences between the two pedigrees, but they clearly are covering the same descent. FWIW, my guess is that the Bartrum pedigree is the more accurate one, since it's likely based on pedigree manuscripts that Bartrum had reviewed.

Bartrum's pedigrees generally end in the in mid-1500s. Because of that, I haven't been able to determine how exactly Jenkin Conway's wife Mary Herbert fits into the Colebrook family.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for this, John.
Why did you find it surprising?
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Herbert/sir.william.coldbrook.html has Mary as daughter of a
Sir William Herbert of Coldbrook son or grandson of another Sir William Herbert of Coldbrook.
Anyways, Janet Stanley has a Henry II descent, which is better than Mary Herbert's Henry I descent.

[John Higgins]

I was dubious of the pedigree in "Black Jack's Book" because it seemed like a typical pedigree passed down through a family without any support. (In fact, the first half of the pedigree can now be said to be pretty much wrong.) My surprise was that I was able to confirm as much of the second half as I did using Bartrum.

The information presently on the Humphrys website for the family of Herbert of Colebrook is presently so skimpy that it's impossible to accurately place Mary Herbert within that family. So, it's premature to claim that Mary has a Henry I descent - whether or not that's better than a Henry II descent.

[Mark Humphrys]

Thanks John.
I made new pages to lay this information out:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/john.html
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/harry.html
Corrections welcome.

Now I shall have to look at the Herbert line! Maybe you could get me started?

And Paulo, can you show me the Henry II descent for Stanley?

[John Higgins]

On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 11:36:44 AM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> Thanks John.
> I made new pages to lay this information out:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/john.html
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/harry.html
> Corrections welcome.
>
> Now I shall have to look at the Herbert line! Maybe you could get me started?
>
> And Paulo, can you show me the Henry II descent for Stanley?
> Mark
>
>
> --
> *

There are quite a number of publications that cover the family of Herbert of Colebrook. I'll try to assemble a list for you, hopefully with some on-line links. I'll also chase down the Bartrum tables that cover the family. I'll probably send these to you off-line, because they're a bit complicated.

[John Higgins]

On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 11:36:44 AM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:

> Thanks John.
> I made new pages to lay this information out:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/john.html
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/harry.html
> Corrections welcome.
>
> Now I shall have to look at the Herbert line! Maybe you could get me started?
>
> And Paulo, can you show me the Henry II descent for Stanley?
> Mark
>
>
> --
> *
>

Paulo, are you talking about the Janet Stanley of Hooton who married John Conwy "Aer Hên" of Bodrhyddan and is ancestral to Capt. Jenkin Conway of Killorglin? If so, I believe there's an issue about the position of her father Edmund Stanley in the Stanley family which causes her to lose her Henry II descent. See Carl Boyer 3rd, Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans, p. 342 [2004]. Bartrum has apparently misplaced him by 2 generations. The boyer version of Edmund's ancestry is shown in the Genealogics database.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Yes, I was refering to her. I was going by her pedigree at fabpedigree, https://fabpedigree.com/s005/f108191.htm.

[John Higgins]

Fabpedigree is even worse than Wikitree, as it has no sources whatsoever.

[Mark Humphrys]

John, can you make sense of any of the sources in the Bartrum genealogy?
I find his notes incomprehensible.

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:53:47 AM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> John, can you make sense of any of the sources in the Bartrum genealogy?
> I find his notes incomprehensible.
> --
> *
>

I fully understand your confusion. It can be quite difficult to understand how Bartrum worked and what his sources were. A good place to start is to read the introduction which he wrote for his work - and even that is not always easy to comprehend. The introduction can be found here (warning: this site is VERY slow to load):
https://www.genealogics.org/showmedia.php?mediaID=17199

There is a LOT of information in this document. For sources and authorities, see particularly the sections starting of page 10 (genealogical manuscripts) and page 16 (other authorities).

You should also be aware that many of his sources are manuscripts from Welsh library collections which have not been published. So unfortunately you often have to take his conclusions at face value, because they can't be easily verified by users like you or me. That's just the reality of the situation....

[John Higgins]

Here are some sources for the family of Herbert of Coldbrook. These sources are among those cited for that family in the Welsh Medieval Database of the Community Trees collection of FamilySearch.

Sir Joseph Bradney, A History of Monmouthshire, vol. 1, pt. 2, p. 189

George T. Clark, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae, p. 293

The Pedigrees of the Herberts, earls of Pembroke and their descendants [FHL microfilm 826552]

John Williams, Llyfr Baglan, or, The Book of Baglan, p. 205 https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/266854?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Theophilus Jones, A history of the county of Brecknock, vol. 2 pt. 2, p. 396 https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1922032

I've checked Clark, Williams, and Jones. None of these show a Conway/Herbert. As for Bartrum, the Conway/Herbert marriage almost certainly occurred too late to be within the time frame of Bartrum.

[Mark Humphrys]

Thanks for those Herbert sources. Will take some time to look through.

In the meantime, I found a big stash of Conway of Kerry material in the Kerry Evening Post. See the list here:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/kep.html
I think this is where the theory that Conway of Ireland descends from the Arrow branch comes from.
Will take me some time to read through all of these.

[John Higgins]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:37:17 PM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> Thanks for those Herbert sources. Will take some time to look through.
>
> In the meantime, I found a big stash of Conway of Kerry material in the Kerry Evening Post. See the list here:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/kep.html
> I think this is where the theory that Conway of Ireland descends from the Arrow branch comes from.
> Will take me some time to read through all of these.
> Mark
>

I’m coming back to this discussion rather belatedly – primarily because, a day or two ago, I received (via interlibrary loan) a copy of the article “The Conways of Kerry” from the 1920 volume of the Kerry Archaeological Magazine. More on that later…

The list of “Conway Notes in Kerry Evening Post” at https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/kep.html looks quite interesting. But all of the links seem to go to a ”link redirection” page (https://humphrysfamilytree.com/irishnewsarchive.php?href=KEP%2F1897%2F02%2F17&page=3). That page seems to offer two options to get to the pages themselves, but neither option takes you to the articles themselves – unless you have a login id. Can you help with this?

I do note that most of these articles seem to discuss the family of Conway of Clahane [or Cloghane] – not the family of Conway of Killorglin. Unfortunately, that’s also the focus of the 1920 article in the Kerry Archaeological Magazine. It goes into considerable detail about the different theories as to the origin of the family of Conway of Cloghane - and cites various items from the Kerry Evening Post by “M. A. Hickson” and “A. M. Rowan” which are probably on your list. It goes on at great length regarding the descendants of Conway of Cloghane – including some Blennerhassett connections.

But the article has no discussion at all regarding the ancestry of Jenkin Conway of Killorglin. It has a short discussion of his descendants, including a couple of Blennerhassett marriages. It also has this rather broad statement on pages 77-78:

“There is one point at all events, that all authorities including· the Herald's College, are agreed on, viz. that the Kil1orglin undertaker [i.e., Jenkin Conway], the Conways of Bodrhyddan, the Conways of Cloghane, and the extinct Earls Conway, all derive from John Ayr Conway and Janet Stanley of Hooton.”

This is broadly true, but it doesn’t help us in determining the origin of Jenkin Conway of Killorgin. For the moment, I’m inclined to bet on the descent I proposed in a post of Nov. 15, based on Bartrum’s Welsh Genealogies: that Jenkin Stanley was a grandson of Piers Conwy, 4th son of John “Ayr Hen” Conwy and Janet Stanley. But that’s just a guess for now….

Mark, if you’d like I can send you a copy of the 1920 article offline via email. Let me know…

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

I want a copy, John, please, send it.

[Mark Humphrys]

The KEP links on my site are to the articles in irishnewsarchive.com (pay to view).
I have a library login, which gives one URL. Other people will have a regular login, which gives another URL.
I solve this by making all links go to a holding page giving the two forms of URL.
Can't help with the login id though.

I have not finished reading them but yes, so far they are mostly about Conway of Clahane, which is disappointing.

Would definitely like to see a copy of the 1920 article. Email is here:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/howtomailme.html
Thanks John

[Mark Humphrys]

I have now read all the Kerry Evening Post articles and letters.
I summarise what is in them here:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/kep.html

Most of it is about Conway of Cloghane.
Hickson's convincing conclusion is those Conways come from Dublin, and beyond that is uncertain.

I also looked through the 1920 article, thanks to John.
In this and the KEP, there is no real theory of the origin of the Capt. Jenkin Conway line.
I think the most convincing origin is that of Black Jack, supported by Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, as John found above.
See my summary of the Capt. Jenkin origin here:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/harry.html

[Mark Humphrys]

I found what must be the baptisms of Capt. Jenkin Conway's children in London in 1576 and 1577, before he went to Ireland
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/capt.jenkin.html

[Mark Humphrys]

Now on to Herbert.
I looked at the Herbert sources John provided to try to see how Capt. Jenkin Conway's wife could connect to Herbert.
The Blennerhassett entry in Burke's Peerage says Capt. Jenkin Conway's wife Mary Herbert was dau of Sir William Herbert of the Coldbrook branch, but does not give more details.
This may be Sir William Herbert of the Coldbrook branch, Sheriff 1551, died 1579.
However the Herbert pedigrees do not show a dau Mary, or any marriage to Conway.
See my summary of all the evidence here:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Herbert/sir.william.coldbrook.html

I think the link of Conway to Herbert of Coldbrook must be regarded as uncertain.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for this, Mark, Happy New Year.

[John Higgins]

I agree with your conclusion regarding the Herbert connection. We don't have enough information to determine which herbert was the father of Mary who married Capt. Jenkin Conway.

[John Higgins]

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 4:42:31 AM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> I have now read all the Kerry Evening Post articles and letters.
> I summarise what is in them here:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/kep.html
>
> Most of it is about Conway of Cloghane.
> Hickson's convincing conclusion is those Conways come from Dublin, and beyond that is uncertain.
>
> I also looked through the 1920 article, thanks to John.
> In this and the KEP, there is no real theory of the origin of the Capt. Jenkin Conway line.
> I think the most convincing origin is that of Black Jack, supported by Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, as John found above.
> See my summary of the Capt. Jenkin origin here:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/harry.html
> --
> *

I wouldn't yet rule out the Conwy pedigree in J. E. Griffith, "Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families" as an alternative to the Black Jack version. At this point, they seem equally plausible. You mention the Griffith work near the botton of this page on your site, with a link to the appropriate pages:
https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html#bartrum
The book itself is available here: https://books.google.ie/books?id=3hVgegx0mNoC&

[Mark Humphrys]

> I wouldn't yet rule out the Conwy pedigree in J. E. Griffith, "Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families" as an alternative to the Black Jack version. At this point, they seem equally plausible. You mention the Griffith work near the botton of this page on your site, with a link to the appropriate pages:
> https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html#bartrum

Griffith has no theory for Capt. Jenkin though.
See pp.260-261.
He shows the line to Peter Conwy, the Archdeacon, but does not show a son Harry.

[John Higgins]

On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 2:10:15 PM UTC-8, mark.h...@dcu.ie wrote:
> > I wouldn't yet rule out the Conwy pedigree in J. E. Griffith, "Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families" as an alternative to the Black Jack version. At this point, they seem equally plausible. You mention the Griffith work near the botton of this page on your site, with a link to the appropriate pages:
> > https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Conway/index.html#bartrum
> Griffith has no theory for Capt. Jenkin though.
> See pp.260-261.
> He shows the line to Peter Conwy, the Archdeacon, but does not show a son Harry.
> --

I understand that the Griffith pedigree does not extend beyond Peter Conwy the archdeacon and thus does not connect to Capt. Jenkin Conway. But, if you do get past the Jenkin Conway issue, Griffith is a useful source to be compared with the Black Jack story and Bartrum's pedigrees to work out the earlier ancestry of the Conwy family - i.e., before John Conwy who married Janet Stanley.