A Descent from Ridoredh
ste...@baldar.clark.net
As we have been discussing Bretons so much lately, I thought
I would toss out what I have pieced together. Those of you
who have read my earlier postings know where I get 80% of my
info from- my Husband has cautioned me not to cite this reference
because I might be sued! (sigh...)
Ridoredh, Count of Nantes, b. ca. 824
Alain I, Duke of Brittany, ca. 854-907
m. Oreguen (no further info)
Paskwitan II, Count of Rennes
Matuedoi, Count of Poher, b. ca. 880
Alain II, Count of Nantes & Vannes, ca. 910-952
Hoel, Count of Nantes, b. ca. 940
Judicael, Count of Nantes, ca. 970-1037
m. Melisende (NFI)
Judith of Nantes, d. 1053
m. Alan Cagnard, ca. 1000-1058
Hoel V, Count of Cornaville, 1036-13 Apr. 1084
m. Hawise of Brittany, d. 1072
Alan IV, Duke of Brittany, ca. 1068-
Oct 13. 1119
m. Ermengarde of Anjou, ca. 1068-
June 1, 1147 in Jerusalem (NFI)
Conan III of Brittany
Ancestors of Hawise of Brittany:
Berenguer, Count of Bayeux, d. 890
Juhel Berenger, Count of Rennes, ca. 884- before 930
m. Gerberge, b. ca. 914 (NFI)
Conan I, Count of Rennes, Duke of Brittany,
b. ca. 944 - d. June 27, 992 at battle of Conquereil
m. Ermengarde of Anjou (no dates, but she was daughter
of Geoffrey I of Anjou & Adelaide of Vermandois, which
gives her multiple descents from Charlemagne and also
Thierry of Autun.
Alan III, Duke of Brittany, ca. 1000- Oct. 1, 1040
m. Bertha of Chartres, daughter of Eudes II of
Blois & Ermengarde of Auvergne (would like more info)
Hawise of Brittany
Cheers, Judith Sanders
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, ste...@baldar.clark.net () says:
>
> As we have been discussing Bretons so much lately, I thought
>I would toss out what I have pieced together. Those of you
>who have read my earlier postings know where I get 80% of my
>info from- my Husband has cautioned me not to cite this reference
>because I might be sued! (sigh...)
>
I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the copyright law.
Information cannot be copyrighted, only the format in which it is
presented. If anything, it is more a violation of fair play (or at least
of good scholarship) to present the information without indicating where it
came from than to present it with the source. As to the line you have
posted, it is a traditional descent that you will find in many sources that
address the breton nobility, but I do not know how firmly it is rooted in
contemporary documentation rather than simply tradition. I am always
concerned when suddenly all of the families that used to hold a title
become reunited a century later.
Todd
Nancy Hauser
Thanks, Todd, for your information. I was a little concerned myself
about some of the information that I post, but have been hoping that if
I mention the source, it was more like a quote than copyright
infringement. My husband is also the first to point out Situations In
Which One Can Be Sued. So mostly I do what I want and don't tell him
about it, and so far that's worked for me ;)
Nancy
Jared Olar
> In a previous article, ste...@baldar.clark.net () says:
>
> > As we have been discussing Bretons so much lately, I thought
> >I would toss out what I have pieced together. Those of you
> >who have read my earlier postings know where I get 80% of my
> >info from- my Husband has cautioned me not to cite this reference
> >because I might be sued! (sigh...)
>
> I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the copyright law.
> Information cannot be copyrighted, only the format in which it is
> presented. If anything, it is more a violation of fair play (or at least
> of good scholarship) to present the information without indicating where it
> came from than to present it with the source. As to the line you have
> posted, it is a traditional descent that you will find in many sources that
> address the breton nobility, but I do not know how firmly it is rooted in
> contemporary documentation rather than simply tradition. I am always
> concerned when suddenly all of the families that used to hold a title
> become reunited a century later.
>
> Todd
>
Well said, Todd. As I am the one who started this thread, I am
particularly interested the source for that lineage of the Counts of
Cornouaille. It's fascinating stuff, but I really need a source citation.
Jared Olar
ste...@baldar.clark.net
Ok, guys, you beat it out of me. My source for the Bretons,
and just about everything I have before 1450, comes from the
Family Pedigrees CD #1, containing the pedigree of Augustine H.
Ayers. And no, I still have no clue who he is, but the quality
of his info. is above most of what I've seen on other Broderbund
disks. I say this because he seems to know where to stop when
chasing down a lineage - I found very few descents that you folks
would consider controversial (Merovingians, Byzantines...) So, I
hope you can be patient with the limitations of a housewife with
a 2-year old bundle of energy and a paranoid husband who makes his
living from computer security.
Cheers, Judith Sanders
(proud owner of "Long Mab" Fitz Fitch, 1/2 Welsh polecat)
Stewart Baldwin
<snip>
>Well said, Todd. As I am the one who started this thread, I am
>particularly interested the source for that lineage of the Counts of
>Cornouaille. It's fascinating stuff, but I really need a source citation.
>Jared Olar
When Anselme's "Histoire genealogique de la maison royale de France,
et des grands officiers de la couronne" was written in 1674, and the
revised versions were done in the next century, the authors were
apparently just as concerned about the lack of good references
regarding the early Breton lines, and their main account starts with
Conan I, with only a brief discussion of the earlier generations. The
main account of the counts of Cornouaille statrs with Alain Caignart,
although there are a few sentences taking the line back to his
grandfather, which is outlined below.
The "Dictionnaire de Biographie Francaise", vol. 1, in the article on
Alain Caignart, gives a good bibliography, some of which appear to be
primary sources. For the interest of those who want to follow this
problem to the sources (and have the library access to support this
desire), I have listed DBF's sources below.
(The usual apologies/excuses for omitting the accents)
The counts of Cornouaille (who were apparently in some cases also
bishops of Cornouaille - I guess the prohibition against married
clergy was not enforced in Brittany around this time.)
[Information from Anselme in brackets, otherwise from DBF]
[Budic, count of Cornouaille]
|
Benoit*, count and bishop of Cornouaille, [d. ca. 1026]
[md. Guinodeon]
|_________________________________________
| |
Alain "Caignart", d. 1058 Orscand
count of Cornouaille, ca. 1020-, bishop of Cornouaille
and count of Nantes, 1054- 1022-
(after the death of Judith's
nephew Mathias, count of Nantes)
md. Judith, dau. of Judicael,
count of Nantes
|______________________________________________________________
| | | | | |
Hoel, duke of Brittany [Budic Quiriac Benoit* [Agnes md. [dau]
(by marriage) d. 1098] both bishops of Eudon (uncle
Cornouaille of duke Conan II
of Brittany]
*Note: "Benoit" (with a circumflex over the "i") is the modern French
form of the name "Benedict" (the form which appears in Anselme).
The bibliography given by DBF is as follows:
1. "Histoire de Bretagne", by A. de la Borderie, vol. iii (1899).
2. "Chartes inedites de Locmaria de Quimper", in "Bulletin de la
Societe archeologique du Finistere", vol. xxiv (1897), pp. 96-113.
3. "Chronique de Nantes", ed. Meriet (1896).
4. "Cartulaire de ... [sic] Quimperle", 2nd ed., Maitre et de Berthou
(1902).
5. "Melanges historiques", by Ch. de Calan (1908), pp. 27, 30, 99.
6. "Cartulaire de l'eglise de Quimper", ed. Peyron (1909).
7. "Melanges d'histoire de Cornouaille", by R. Latouche (1911).
Stewart Baldwin
Jared Olar
On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
<snip>
> The counts of Cornouaille (who were apparently in some cases also
> bishops of Cornouaille - I guess the prohibition against married
> clergy was not enforced in Brittany around this time.)
Maybe the Breton clergy were like earlier Celtic clergy? Or maybe they
entered the church in their old age?
Anyway, thanks.
Jared Olar