Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Thomas de la Haye and his 3 Babthorpe wives?
733 views
Skip to first unread message
Colin B. Withers
Jan 4, 2013, 9:36:20 AM1/4/13
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7TdHJ&dq=babthorpe%20Spaldington&pg=PA426#v=onepage&q=babthorpe%20Spaldington&f=false
However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.
http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.
http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20Babthorpe.pdf
I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsearch&id=I15960
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2005-09/msg00078.html
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/1063628270
The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
For this: Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.shtml
So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
Wibs
>From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7TdHJ&dq=babthorpe%20Spaldington&pg=PA426#v=onepage&q=babthorpe%20Spaldington&f=false
However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.
http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.
http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20Babthorpe.pdf
I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsearch&id=I15960
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2005-09/msg00078.html
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/1063628270
The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
For this: Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.shtml
So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
Wibs
Wjhonson
Jan 4, 2013, 10:23:07 AM1/4/13
to mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
My candidate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Iron_Mask
-----Original Message-----
From: Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 3:26 am
Subject: Bourbon miracle
It has been often, perhaps even generally, disbelieved that the French King
Louis XIV (and accordingly, his male-line progeny) would be descended from
the 'medieval' King Henri IV, his legal paternal grandfather. This has been
because, charitably worded, the conception of Louis XIV has been believed
to have taken place by so-called assistance.
Now it seems that geneticists have obtained a result that Louis XVI (one of
those male-line descendants of the said Louis XIV) and the said Henri IV do
share the same Y DNA.
However, provenances of the two tested items in both ends appear less than
fully ascertained.
What has been used as Henri IV's test sample, is a grave-robbed cut head
that wandered without good supervision in Europe after the French
revolution.
What has been used as Louis XVI's test sample, is material in a gourd which
is surely not at all pure.
Still, this is a result which has not a significant likelihood to be merely
a coincidence. Such Y DNA is not at all easy to be identical just by random.
I would say that test of one or more samples (persons) should be required.
The so-very-uncertain provenance situation in this is too unsatisfactory.
However, already this gives rise to talk about a Miracle of Bourbon. It is
now miraculously possible that they actually could possess the Y DNA of
their legal forefather Hugh Capet.... :)
One intriguing possibility to explain this result, would be that in the
said situation of assistance to conceive Louis XIV, actually someone
Capetian was used as fertility bank..
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Iron_Mask
-----Original Message-----
From: Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 3:26 am
Subject: Bourbon miracle
It has been often, perhaps even generally, disbelieved that the French King
Louis XIV (and accordingly, his male-line progeny) would be descended from
the 'medieval' King Henri IV, his legal paternal grandfather. This has been
because, charitably worded, the conception of Louis XIV has been believed
to have taken place by so-called assistance.
Now it seems that geneticists have obtained a result that Louis XVI (one of
those male-line descendants of the said Louis XIV) and the said Henri IV do
share the same Y DNA.
However, provenances of the two tested items in both ends appear less than
fully ascertained.
What has been used as Henri IV's test sample, is a grave-robbed cut head
that wandered without good supervision in Europe after the French
revolution.
What has been used as Louis XVI's test sample, is material in a gourd which
is surely not at all pure.
Still, this is a result which has not a significant likelihood to be merely
a coincidence. Such Y DNA is not at all easy to be identical just by random.
I would say that test of one or more samples (persons) should be required.
The so-very-uncertain provenance situation in this is too unsatisfactory.
However, already this gives rise to talk about a Miracle of Bourbon. It is
now miraculously possible that they actually could possess the Y DNA of
their legal forefather Hugh Capet.... :)
One intriguing possibility to explain this result, would be that in the
said situation of assistance to conceive Louis XIV, actually someone
Capetian was used as fertility bank..
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
guine...@verizon.net
Jan 4, 2013, 1:19:45 PM1/4/13
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Hi Colin,
In the "Plumpton Correspondence" edited by Thomas Stapleton, Camden Society
Volume 4, pp. ci, cii, there is a pedigree of Babthorpe starting with Sir
Robert Babthorpe who died 22 Aug. 1436. He married Eleanor, daughter of John
de Waterton, "Feoffment before marriage dated 12 Sept. 11 Henry IV, 1410."
Their son Ralph (the elder) was killed at St. Albans, 22 May 1455. He
married "Katherine dau. of .... Ashley, "had Sacomb, Herts. settled in
jointure 11 Sept. 8 Henry V, 1420." She died 27 Aug. 1461. They could not
have been the parents of Isabel/Elizabeth Babthorpe who married Sir Thomas
de la Haye, for he died in 1426, six years after Ralph and "Katherine" were
married, evidently in childhood.
Hope this is helpful.
Nancy
John Watson
Jan 6, 2013, 4:39:15 PM1/6/13
to
Colin,
The Babthorpe pedigree shown on the Ingilby website is based more on
fantasy than reality. This pedigree was first printed in Burton's
Monasticon Eboracense and Foster (who should have known better)
included it in an appendix to his Yorkshire Pedigrees. See the
Babthorpe pedigree in Burton and Raine's Hemingbrough.
http://www.archive.org/stream/heminbrough00burt#page/n200/mode/1up
See also Raine's remarks on Burton's pedigree on page 173.
On your question of the identity of Thomas de la Haye's wife, there is
no clear answer. IF she was the daughter of William Babthorpe then she
would be by his first wife, Margaret, daughter of John Willimot of
Boroughbridge who died in June 1402. William Babthorpe also had a
second wife, Margaret, widow of Thomas Overton, who appears (to me at
least) to be the mother of his three sons. The sons seem to have been
born in the 1420's.
However, there is no evidence in William Babthorpe's will that he had
a daughter who married Thomas de la Haye. See Hemingbrough pp. 175-8,
Thomas de la Haye had two wives, the second of whom he mentions in his
will, was called Jane; see Surtees Society, Vol. 30, Testamenta
Eboracensia, Part II (Durham: 1855) p. 11n.
On the descent of Spaldington - after the death of Peter de la Haye,
his estates would have been divided between his four grand daughters,
so it is possible that each had a part of Spaldington. John Vavasour
junior seems to have bought out the Spaldington shares of his aunts in
1481.
31 August 1481, Deed whereby Robert Hilyerd knight, son and heir of
Katerine one of the daughters and heirs of Thomas de la Haye, esquire,
Elezabeth Knyght, widow, the third of the daughters and heirs of
Thomas, and Alice Thwaytes widow, fourth daughter and heir of Thomas,
release and quit-claim to John Vavasour junior, serjeant-at-law, and
his heirs, all their right inthe manor of Spaldyngton and Willytofte,
and 20 acres of land in Holme. Habendum to releases in fee, with
warranty. Last day of August, 21 Edward IV.
The Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, 2nd ser. Vol. 4 (1869)
p. 79
Best regards,
John
On Jan 4, 9:36 pm, "Colin B. Withers" <Colin.With...@eumetsat.int>
wrote:
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
The Babthorpe pedigree shown on the Ingilby website is based more on
fantasy than reality. This pedigree was first printed in Burton's
Monasticon Eboracense and Foster (who should have known better)
included it in an appendix to his Yorkshire Pedigrees. See the
Babthorpe pedigree in Burton and Raine's Hemingbrough.
http://www.archive.org/stream/heminbrough00burt#page/n200/mode/1up
See also Raine's remarks on Burton's pedigree on page 173.
On your question of the identity of Thomas de la Haye's wife, there is
no clear answer. IF she was the daughter of William Babthorpe then she
would be by his first wife, Margaret, daughter of John Willimot of
Boroughbridge who died in June 1402. William Babthorpe also had a
second wife, Margaret, widow of Thomas Overton, who appears (to me at
least) to be the mother of his three sons. The sons seem to have been
born in the 1420's.
However, there is no evidence in William Babthorpe's will that he had
a daughter who married Thomas de la Haye. See Hemingbrough pp. 175-8,
Thomas de la Haye had two wives, the second of whom he mentions in his
will, was called Jane; see Surtees Society, Vol. 30, Testamenta
Eboracensia, Part II (Durham: 1855) p. 11n.
On the descent of Spaldington - after the death of Peter de la Haye,
his estates would have been divided between his four grand daughters,
so it is possible that each had a part of Spaldington. John Vavasour
junior seems to have bought out the Spaldington shares of his aunts in
1481.
31 August 1481, Deed whereby Robert Hilyerd knight, son and heir of
Katerine one of the daughters and heirs of Thomas de la Haye, esquire,
Elezabeth Knyght, widow, the third of the daughters and heirs of
Thomas, and Alice Thwaytes widow, fourth daughter and heir of Thomas,
release and quit-claim to John Vavasour junior, serjeant-at-law, and
his heirs, all their right inthe manor of Spaldyngton and Willytofte,
and 20 acres of land in Holme. Habendum to releases in fee, with
warranty. Last day of August, 21 Edward IV.
The Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, 2nd ser. Vol. 4 (1869)
p. 79
Best regards,
John
On Jan 4, 9:36 pm, "Colin B. Withers" <Colin.With...@eumetsat.int>
wrote:
> I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
> John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7T...
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: Plea of covenant.
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> For this: Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.s...
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: Plea of covenant.
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
John Watson
Jan 6, 2013, 11:21:12 PM1/6/13
to
> I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
> John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7T...
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
>
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: Plea of covenant.
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> For this: Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.s...
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: Plea of covenant.
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
>
> So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
>
> Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
>
> Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
>
> Wibs
Colin,
> So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
>
> Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
>
> Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
>
> Wibs
There is a de la Haye - Babthorpe connection in the fine that you have
noted.
The persons involved are:
Ralph Babthorpe - son of Sir Ralph Babthorpe (both died at Battle of
St Albans, 22 May 1455)
Robert Babthorpe - son of Sir Ralph Babthorpe
Margaret Babthorpe - daughter of Sir Ralph Babthorpe married Richard
Metham
William Swillington - married Elizabeth daughter of William Babthorpe
(d. 1465)
Percival Cressacre - step-son of Peter de la Haye (son of his second
wife Elizabeth Woodruffe)
Regards,
John
Colin B. Withers
Jan 7, 2013, 2:28:24 AM1/7/13
to John Watson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Many thanks John and Nancy for your replies.
Wibs
On Jan 4, 9:36�pm, "Colin B. Withers" <Colin.With...@eumetsat.int>
>
> Agreement: � � �Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> For this: � � � Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.s...
Wibs
wrote:
> I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
> John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7T...
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: � � � � Plea of covenant.
> I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
> >From the Baronetage of England, vol 5, it states that :
>
> John Vavasour, who died 1452, married Isabel, eldest daughter and coheiress of Thomas de la Haye, by his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir --- Babthorpe, of Babthorpe, knt. This lady inherited from her grandfather, Sir Peter de la Haye, knt, the manor of Spaldington, which had been in possession of the De La Hayes from the conquest. Thomas, father of Isabel, died in 1427; her grandfather died at his mansion house at Spaldington, 1431, and was buried at Ellerton Priory, which was founded by his ancestor, William Fitz-Peter.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iPjUAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA426&ots=TxahW7T...
>
> However, on the StepneyRobarts site it gives the wife of Thomas de la Haye as Joan Babthorpe. It further quotes Testamenta Eboracensia providing the full name of her father, Sir William Babthorpe.http://www.stepneyrobarts.co.uk/11301.htm
>
> However, in the Babthorpe pedigree on the Ingilby History website, it gives Isabel Babthorpe as the wife of Thomas de la Haye, and her father as Sir Ralph Babthorpe.http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_3/BABTHORPE%20of%20B...
>
> I note this topic has arisen before in the archive.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsea...
>
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/20...
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/10...
>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington (in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent in Spaldyngton'.
>
>
> Agreement: � � �Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph, Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> For this: � � � Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300 marks of silver.http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.s...
>
> So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
>
> Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
>
> Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
>
> Wibs
> So, was Thomas de la Haye's wife Elizabeth Babthorpe, Joan Babthorpe or Isabel Babthorpe?
>
> Can anyone see how the Babthorpe's could still have held the manor of Spaldington in 1445?
>
> Thanks, and a Happy New year to all
>
> Wibs
TJ Booth
Mar 26, 2013, 8:12:19 PM3/26/13
to GenMedieval
Posts last January by John Watson, Colin Withers [below], and others about
Thomas de la Haye's wife piqued my interest because of connections to
families I'm studying. [1] Although John Ravilious covered the family very
well back in 2005/06, [2] the added questions led to further research and
discoveries. I still can't confirm Thomas de la Haye had a Babthorpe wife,
but other additions to the pedigree and the descendants of his daughters can
be made.
Because of length, this post is in 2 parts. Part I has added dates and
information about Thomas de la Haye's ancestry and daughters. Part II has
previously unidentified descendants of daughter Elizabeth, identified only
as the widow of John Knight in prior posts.
The 1445 feoffment Withers noted merits further comment beyond Watson's
identification of the feoffees. Glover has two Babthorpe pedigrees, one by a
correspondent and the other using the Monasticon pedigree that Burton and
Raine took exception to. Both show Margaret Babthorpe of the feoffment as a
dau of Sir Ralph Babthorpe m. [bef 11 Sep 1420, Dulcia 'Dowsabel' Ashley],
and that she m. Richard Metham. She was thus William Babthorpe's niece.
Burton and Raine exclude her in their pedigree, but the feoffment supports
Glover's correspondent.
Each of Thomas de la Haye's 5 daus inherited 1/5 shares in Spaldington.
Wither's 1445 feoffment refers only to an interest (size unstated) held by
Margaret. One suspects it was the 1/5 interest first held by Dorothy, the
daughter who became a nun, which was then somehow granted to Margaret for
her lifetime. Percival Cresacre in the feoffment (b. abt 1399 d. bef 2 Feb
1477, m. Alice Mounteney of Cowley) was son of Elizabeth Woodruff, whose 2nd
husband was Peter de la Haye d. bef 11 Apr 1431. Thus the 5 daughters and
co-heirs, were Percival's step-sisters.
Per a footnote to Robert del Hay's 1391 will, [2] Thomas' five co-heir
daughters were "Isabell married John Vavasour; Joan married Christopher
[sic] Hildyard; the third married John Knight, of South Duffield; the fourth
married Thwaites, of Smeton; and Dorothy, the youngest, became a nun in the
Monastery of Swyne". This largely conforms to the 31 Aug 1481 deed Watson
cited (repeated next paragraph) except for the absence of Dorothy. The 1481
deed explains how the Vavasours acquired the other 3/4 of Spaldington.
Dorothy's 1/5 share had clearly failed by then and Margaret's life interest
shown in the 1445 feoffment also had then failed so she must be d. - maybe
the transaction followed her death.
"Deed whereby Robert Hilyerd knight, son and heir of Katerine one of the
daughters and heirs of Thomas de la Haye, esquire, Elezabeth Knyght widow,
[Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries; Vol 4 (1868); page 78 @
books.google.com/books?id=oDdJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA78. ]
Some added dates and relationships can be added about the del Haye family. W
Paley Baildon has a 22 page family pedigree and discussion of the Butlers of
Skelbrook, with the family descending from Hugh Pincerna Steward of
Pontefract, d. say 1246, by his wife Avice de Savile (Ravilious noted this
in 2005). [3] Ignoring the interim generations shown by Baildon, John Butler
of Skelbrook's dau Agnes is shown as m. Thomas de la Haye. Ravilious thought
a 21 Dec 1379 document indicated Agnes' husband was alive then, but new
sources prove he d. bef 8 Nov 1371,[4] and his heir Peter de la Haye was b.
shortly bef 21 Dec 1358 [5]. Peter's first wife Elizabeth was surely the dau
of Walter Frost, who purchased the land and marriage rights for the then
underage Peter on 8 Nov 1371 when Peter was about 13. He was likely Walter
Frost of Kingston on Hull, mentioned in the footnotes to the 12 Dec 1477
will of Frost's grandson Walter Esq. of Beverley.[6] Based on their mention
in Bishop Walter Skirlaw's 1404 will [7], Peter de la Haye and Elizabeth
(Frost?) had Thomas and 2 other sons living then - one suspects the sons
were adult or close to. Elizabeth Frost was mother of all of Peter's
children, since Peter m.(2) Eliz Wodrove/Woodruffe aft 10 Aug 1417, when her
1st husband James Cresacre d. The chronology permits Peter to m. by 1380,
Thomas to be b. by 1385 and m. by 1405. The chronologies of 2 of the
co-heir husbands, John Vavasour and Robert Hildyard, suggest the oldest
daughter could have been b. by 1410.
A few added items about the 5 daughters.
1. Isabel de la Haye m. John Vavasour I, a younger son of Sir Henry of
Hazlewood, d. bef 29 Mar 1414, by Margaret Skipwith d. 1 Jul 1415. John
Watson's post this year clearly identified John I's mother as the 'other' of
two Margaret Skipwiths, she the dau of John by Alice Tilney. Margaret
Skipwith Vavasour's will and IPM also mention a son John. John Vavasour II
('junior' in the 1481 deed), was the son and heir of John I and Isabel de la
Haye. He m. Eliz Tailboys but had no issue, so Spaldington descended via his
brother William (who m. Alice Mallory per Glover). Their heir was son Sir
Peter (m. Elizabeth dau of Sir Andrew Windsor). [8] John I Vavasour and
Isabel de la Haye were clearly d. by 1481. A.S. Ellis, citing a deed in
which Halton was settled on Margaret Skipwith, then on John her son, then on
oldest son Henry, (likely the 13 Jan 1414 deed noted in Margaret's IPM),
noted that Halton was later held by Sir Peter of Spaldington, thereby
correcting the Vavasour pedigree found in Glover, Dugdale and elsewhere.
This proves that John I was the younger son of Sir Henry by Margaret
Skipwith, a generation earlier than most pedigrees.[9] For those interested,
the pedigree for Vavasour of Spaldington (before Ellis' corrections) is
found here. [10] Chronology makes John I b. perhaps 1405 to 1410, consistent
with a birth date for Isabel near that range.
2. Catherine de la Haye m. Robert Hildyard when Robert "was underage". On 21
Apr 1434 his mother settled lands on him and his wife, indicating he was
then of age [thus b. bef 21 Apr 1413] and married before 1434.[11] There is
an extensive Hildyard pedigree in Poulson's Holderness Vol 2 page 466 which
incorrectly identifies Catherine's mother as "Elizabeth dau of William
abthorpe and Maud dau of Robert Hildyard of Arnold and Normanby", yet
another version of the Babthorpe pedigree. It can also be noted that,
according to Hunter and contemporary documents, the de la Hayes held an
interest in Skelthorp via Thomas' grandmother, Agnes, said to be a
descendent of the le Botilers of Skelbrook as noted above. But Thomas's
gr-parents also sold a 1/4 interest in Darthington to Sir John Fitz William
of Sprotborough in 1365, a relationship not yet explained. [12] It would fit
well chronologically if Agnes wife of the earlier Thomas de la Haye was
identical with the 'Agneti filieae Thomae filii mei' who received a bequest
in Isabel Fitz William's 1348 will - if so, it would require an earlier de
la Haye generation to m. a Boteler daughter for the Skelbrook descent to
work. Baildon was puzzled that a 1335 Inquis ad quod danum for the widow of
Edmund le Botiler and Edmund's son and heir, John, stated that John held the
manor of Spaldington - an earlier generation marriage might help explain
this. Hunter ii:457 traces Skelbrook, noting "The manor of Skelbrook
descended to the Hildiards. Sir Robert [Hildiard] by Catherine de la Hay had
another sir Robert, father of Peter, who was found on inquisition p.m. 23
Hen VII to have died seised of the manor of Skelbrook, leaving Christopher
his son and heir." Hunter is mirrored in Poulson's History of Holderness
pedigree for Hildyard of Winestead @ ii:466.
3. Elizabeth de la Haye was a widow in 1481, husband John Knight of North
Duffield being d. Not noted earlier, she m.(1) perhaps 1435, Robert Paslew
of Barnby upon Don, d. bef 1451. The Paslew marriage and their descendants,
with documentation, is traced in Part II.
4. Alice de la Haye m. Thomas Thwaites. There are SGM posts about her
descendants, some being colonial immigrants. Per an earlier citation by
Ravilious, the name of Alice's mother was Joan, last name conjectured, who
may have been Thomas de la Hayes' second wife. Ravilious notes that Alice
Thwaytes left a will dated 11 Mar 1485/86, her heir was son [13]
5. Dorothy became a nun, and her interest had failed before the 1481
Spaldington transaction . Her interest was likely transferred to Margaret
wife of Richard Metham, for Margaret's lifetime only.
A number of secondary sources state that Isabel, wife of John I Vavasour,
was the sole heir of Thomas de la Haye. That is clearly incorrect, as is the
suggestion in several Babthorpe pedigrees that the wife of John I Vavasour
was Isabel Babthorpe (including Glover's p. 598 transcription of the Burton
Monasticon pedigree that John Watson earlier noted had many errors).
If Leo wants, he can link the Vavasours of Spaldington - and Isabella de la
Hay - to Lady Diana:
Gen 1. John I Vavasour of Spaldington b. perhaps 1405 d. bef 31 Aug 1481, m.
perhaps 1435 Isabel de la Haye b. perhaps 1415, d. bef 31 Aug 1481. John I
is @ genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00609092&tree=LEO , no wife or
children noted. He is correctly shown as son of Sir Henry Vavasour m.
Margaret Skipwith.
Gen 2. William Vavasour (heir of Spaldington of his brother John II), b.
perhaps 1445, m. perhaps 1465, Alice Mallory.
Gen 3. Sir Peter Vavasour of Spaldington, b. perhaps 1475, m. perhaps 1500,
Elizabeth Windsor dau of Andrew and Elizabeth Blount (the couple @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00119061&tree=LEO but dau Elizabeth
not shown.)
Gen 4. John Vavasour (heir of Spaldington of his brother George), b. perhaps
1510, m.(3) perhaps 1545, Julian Aske of Aughton (dau of John Aske Esq and
Eleanor Ryther). John @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00608229&tree=LEO , Julian @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00608230&tree=LEO , no children
shown for this couple, but their child Ralph is already in Leo's database.
Gen 5. Ralph Vavasour of Spaldington, b. perhaps 1550, m. Francis Darnell.
Ralph & Francis @ genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00565057&tree=LEO
, no parents shown). Leo shows Princess Diana as their descendant.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
---------
[1] See for instance Ravilious posts of 21 Sep 2006, with well sourced
extended pedigrees. Part I @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1158845262, Part
II (includes Thomas) @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1158845580 .
[2] Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I; Surtees Society; 1836; page 156 @
books.google.com/books?id=t-suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA156 . This John de la Haye was
most likely the brother of Peter, since Peter had a son named John who was
alive in 1404. It is unclear why a footnote referencing a son of Peter is
shown here.
[3] W Paley Baildon; 'Notes on the Early Savile Pedigree etc. : Section III
The Butlers of Skelbrook and Kirk Sandal'; Yorkshire Archaeological Journal;
Vol 29; pages 68-89, pedigree page 89.
[4] William Wheater; Some historic mansions of Yorkshire and their
associations, Volume 1, page 56 @
books.google.com/books?id=o4TkAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA56 . "In 1371 [8 Nov 1371 per
Cal Patent Rolls Edw III, Vol not accessible online, page 8] Walter Frost
gave forty marks for custody, without disparagement, of a messuage and two
carucates of land with their appurtenances in Spaldyngton, which belonged to
Thomas de la Haye, of Spaldyngton, deceased, who held of the heir of the
Baron of Greystok, within age and in the King's custody, by knight's service
and by the marriage of the heir of the said Thomas de la Haye."
Ravilious cited a record, perhaps misdated, suggesting Thomas de la Haye
d. aft 21 Dec 1379.
[5] HC Maxwell Lyte; 'Close Rolls, Edward III: January 1377', Calendar of
Close Rolls, Edward III: volume 14: 1374-1377 (1913), pp. 422-423. URL :
www..british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=106458 . [Proof of age] 14
Jan 1377. Westminster. To John Bygod escheator in Yorkshire. Order to
deliver to Peter son and heir of Thomas del Hay of Spaldyngton, tenant by
knight service of the heir of William baron of Greystok tenant in chief
being lately within age and in the king's wardship, all the lands which the
said Thomas held of the said heir and which were taken into the king's hand
by his death; as the said Peter proved his age before Gilbert de Culwen late
escheator, and the age of Ralph son and heir of the said baron being proved,
the king lately took his homage and fealty, and commanded livery to be given
him of his said father's lands. Also UK National Archives; PHC/254; Dec.
21st, 1379. Grant and quitclaim made before the Corporation of the city of
York, by Peter, son and heir of Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington, to William
de Bowes, of his rights on the manor of Streatlam and Stainton. Seals
missing.
[6] Testamenta Eboracensia, Vol III; Surtees Society; Vol 74 (1865); page
237 @ books.google.com/books?id=rzA8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA237 . The Frost family
were wealthy merchants - Walter, Elizabeth's father, was Mayor of Hull in
1372, her mother was Ellen Box whose father was also a mayor of Hull, and
her brother Walter m. Ellen Fetherstone, heir of Fetherstone from her father
Simon per a document on Chris Phillips' website. The Frost family of Hull,
Beverley and Fetherston is not well documented, the 2 Walter Frosts with
wives named Ellen being conflated.
[7] Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I; Surtees Society; 1836; page 312 @
books.google.com/books?id=t-suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA312 .
[8] Her parents were Sir Andrew Windsor, K.B. of Stanwell, a descendant of
Edw I, and Elizabeth Blount, a descendant of Henry III (and also Sancha de
Ayala), the royal descents shown in RPA (2004) page 476 sub Ludlow.
[9] A.S. Ellis; 'Vavasour of Spaldington [Note]'; Miscellanea Genealogica et
Heraldica; Joseph Jackson Howard editor; Vol II (1876); page 133 @
books.google.com/books?id=PSQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA133.
[10] Thomas Beckwith; 'Pedigree of the Family of Vavasour of Spaldington';
Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica; Joseph Jackson Howard editor; Vol I
(1868); page 193 @ books.google.com/books?id=76xBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA193. This is
the pedigree A.S. Ellis corrected.
[11] N.J.Miller; transcribing from 'The Leager Book' dated 1658; in
Transactions of the Harleian Society; Vol VI (1898), page 34 @
books.google.com/books?id=DmAJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA34
[12] UK National Archives; Final Concord WWM/D/51 1365. Plaintiffs: John
Fitzwilliam, knight and Elizabeth [de Clinton per FitzWilliam pedigree], his
wife. Deforciants: Thomas del Haye and Agnes, his wife. Fourth part of the
manor of Darthyngton, next to the town of Pontefract. Consideration, 100
marks of silver. St Michael in the one month, 1365.
UK National Archives; DD/SR/A11/12 [Transcribed as 9 Edw III (1335-6),
but likely 39 Edw III based on earlier record]. Final concord: John Fitz
William & Elizabeth his wife quaer[ient]. Thomas [del Haye] & Agnes his wife
def[endant] manor of Darlington near Pontefract, Yorks. [Likely the fine
associated with the final concord above.]
[13] archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/1063628270
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin B. Withers" <Colin....@eumetsat.int>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 8:36 AM
Subject: Thomas de la Haye and his 3 Babthorpe wives?
>I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la
>Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
<Snip>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington
(in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always
accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it
descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his
grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour
family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy
> website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And
> afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and
> Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee
> Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of
> meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent
> in Spaldyngton'.
>
> Action: Plea of covenant.
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival,
> marks of silver.
> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.shtml
Thomas de la Haye's wife piqued my interest because of connections to
families I'm studying. [1] Although John Ravilious covered the family very
well back in 2005/06, [2] the added questions led to further research and
discoveries. I still can't confirm Thomas de la Haye had a Babthorpe wife,
but other additions to the pedigree and the descendants of his daughters can
be made.
Because of length, this post is in 2 parts. Part I has added dates and
information about Thomas de la Haye's ancestry and daughters. Part II has
previously unidentified descendants of daughter Elizabeth, identified only
as the widow of John Knight in prior posts.
The 1445 feoffment Withers noted merits further comment beyond Watson's
identification of the feoffees. Glover has two Babthorpe pedigrees, one by a
correspondent and the other using the Monasticon pedigree that Burton and
Raine took exception to. Both show Margaret Babthorpe of the feoffment as a
dau of Sir Ralph Babthorpe m. [bef 11 Sep 1420, Dulcia 'Dowsabel' Ashley],
and that she m. Richard Metham. She was thus William Babthorpe's niece.
Burton and Raine exclude her in their pedigree, but the feoffment supports
Glover's correspondent.
Each of Thomas de la Haye's 5 daus inherited 1/5 shares in Spaldington.
Wither's 1445 feoffment refers only to an interest (size unstated) held by
Margaret. One suspects it was the 1/5 interest first held by Dorothy, the
daughter who became a nun, which was then somehow granted to Margaret for
her lifetime. Percival Cresacre in the feoffment (b. abt 1399 d. bef 2 Feb
1477, m. Alice Mounteney of Cowley) was son of Elizabeth Woodruff, whose 2nd
husband was Peter de la Haye d. bef 11 Apr 1431. Thus the 5 daughters and
co-heirs, were Percival's step-sisters.
Per a footnote to Robert del Hay's 1391 will, [2] Thomas' five co-heir
daughters were "Isabell married John Vavasour; Joan married Christopher
[sic] Hildyard; the third married John Knight, of South Duffield; the fourth
married Thwaites, of Smeton; and Dorothy, the youngest, became a nun in the
Monastery of Swyne". This largely conforms to the 31 Aug 1481 deed Watson
cited (repeated next paragraph) except for the absence of Dorothy. The 1481
deed explains how the Vavasours acquired the other 3/4 of Spaldington.
Dorothy's 1/5 share had clearly failed by then and Margaret's life interest
shown in the 1445 feoffment also had then failed so she must be d. - maybe
the transaction followed her death.
"Deed whereby Robert Hilyerd knight, son and heir of Katerine one of the
the third of the daughters and heirs of Thomas, and Alice Thwaytes widow,
fourth daughter and heir of Thomas, release and quit-claim to John Vavasour
junior, serjeant-at-law, and his heirs, all their right in the manor of
fourth daughter and heir of Thomas, release and quit-claim to John Vavasour
Spaldyngton and Willytofte, and 20 acres of land in Holme. Habendum to
releases in fee, with warranty. Last day of August, 21 Ed. IV. (1481).
[Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries; Vol 4 (1868); page 78 @
books.google.com/books?id=oDdJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA78. ]
Some added dates and relationships can be added about the del Haye family. W
Paley Baildon has a 22 page family pedigree and discussion of the Butlers of
Skelbrook, with the family descending from Hugh Pincerna Steward of
Pontefract, d. say 1246, by his wife Avice de Savile (Ravilious noted this
in 2005). [3] Ignoring the interim generations shown by Baildon, John Butler
of Skelbrook's dau Agnes is shown as m. Thomas de la Haye. Ravilious thought
a 21 Dec 1379 document indicated Agnes' husband was alive then, but new
sources prove he d. bef 8 Nov 1371,[4] and his heir Peter de la Haye was b.
shortly bef 21 Dec 1358 [5]. Peter's first wife Elizabeth was surely the dau
of Walter Frost, who purchased the land and marriage rights for the then
underage Peter on 8 Nov 1371 when Peter was about 13. He was likely Walter
Frost of Kingston on Hull, mentioned in the footnotes to the 12 Dec 1477
will of Frost's grandson Walter Esq. of Beverley.[6] Based on their mention
in Bishop Walter Skirlaw's 1404 will [7], Peter de la Haye and Elizabeth
(Frost?) had Thomas and 2 other sons living then - one suspects the sons
were adult or close to. Elizabeth Frost was mother of all of Peter's
children, since Peter m.(2) Eliz Wodrove/Woodruffe aft 10 Aug 1417, when her
1st husband James Cresacre d. The chronology permits Peter to m. by 1380,
Thomas to be b. by 1385 and m. by 1405. The chronologies of 2 of the
co-heir husbands, John Vavasour and Robert Hildyard, suggest the oldest
daughter could have been b. by 1410.
A few added items about the 5 daughters.
1. Isabel de la Haye m. John Vavasour I, a younger son of Sir Henry of
Hazlewood, d. bef 29 Mar 1414, by Margaret Skipwith d. 1 Jul 1415. John
Watson's post this year clearly identified John I's mother as the 'other' of
two Margaret Skipwiths, she the dau of John by Alice Tilney. Margaret
Skipwith Vavasour's will and IPM also mention a son John. John Vavasour II
('junior' in the 1481 deed), was the son and heir of John I and Isabel de la
Haye. He m. Eliz Tailboys but had no issue, so Spaldington descended via his
brother William (who m. Alice Mallory per Glover). Their heir was son Sir
Peter (m. Elizabeth dau of Sir Andrew Windsor). [8] John I Vavasour and
Isabel de la Haye were clearly d. by 1481. A.S. Ellis, citing a deed in
which Halton was settled on Margaret Skipwith, then on John her son, then on
oldest son Henry, (likely the 13 Jan 1414 deed noted in Margaret's IPM),
noted that Halton was later held by Sir Peter of Spaldington, thereby
correcting the Vavasour pedigree found in Glover, Dugdale and elsewhere.
This proves that John I was the younger son of Sir Henry by Margaret
Skipwith, a generation earlier than most pedigrees.[9] For those interested,
the pedigree for Vavasour of Spaldington (before Ellis' corrections) is
found here. [10] Chronology makes John I b. perhaps 1405 to 1410, consistent
with a birth date for Isabel near that range.
2. Catherine de la Haye m. Robert Hildyard when Robert "was underage". On 21
Apr 1434 his mother settled lands on him and his wife, indicating he was
then of age [thus b. bef 21 Apr 1413] and married before 1434.[11] There is
an extensive Hildyard pedigree in Poulson's Holderness Vol 2 page 466 which
incorrectly identifies Catherine's mother as "Elizabeth dau of William
abthorpe and Maud dau of Robert Hildyard of Arnold and Normanby", yet
another version of the Babthorpe pedigree. It can also be noted that,
according to Hunter and contemporary documents, the de la Hayes held an
interest in Skelthorp via Thomas' grandmother, Agnes, said to be a
descendent of the le Botilers of Skelbrook as noted above. But Thomas's
gr-parents also sold a 1/4 interest in Darthington to Sir John Fitz William
of Sprotborough in 1365, a relationship not yet explained. [12] It would fit
well chronologically if Agnes wife of the earlier Thomas de la Haye was
identical with the 'Agneti filieae Thomae filii mei' who received a bequest
in Isabel Fitz William's 1348 will - if so, it would require an earlier de
la Haye generation to m. a Boteler daughter for the Skelbrook descent to
work. Baildon was puzzled that a 1335 Inquis ad quod danum for the widow of
Edmund le Botiler and Edmund's son and heir, John, stated that John held the
manor of Spaldington - an earlier generation marriage might help explain
this. Hunter ii:457 traces Skelbrook, noting "The manor of Skelbrook
descended to the Hildiards. Sir Robert [Hildiard] by Catherine de la Hay had
another sir Robert, father of Peter, who was found on inquisition p.m. 23
Hen VII to have died seised of the manor of Skelbrook, leaving Christopher
his son and heir." Hunter is mirrored in Poulson's History of Holderness
pedigree for Hildyard of Winestead @ ii:466.
3. Elizabeth de la Haye was a widow in 1481, husband John Knight of North
Duffield being d. Not noted earlier, she m.(1) perhaps 1435, Robert Paslew
of Barnby upon Don, d. bef 1451. The Paslew marriage and their descendants,
with documentation, is traced in Part II.
4. Alice de la Haye m. Thomas Thwaites. There are SGM posts about her
descendants, some being colonial immigrants. Per an earlier citation by
Ravilious, the name of Alice's mother was Joan, last name conjectured, who
may have been Thomas de la Hayes' second wife. Ravilious notes that Alice
Thwaytes left a will dated 11 Mar 1485/86, her heir was son [13]
5. Dorothy became a nun, and her interest had failed before the 1481
Spaldington transaction . Her interest was likely transferred to Margaret
wife of Richard Metham, for Margaret's lifetime only.
A number of secondary sources state that Isabel, wife of John I Vavasour,
was the sole heir of Thomas de la Haye. That is clearly incorrect, as is the
suggestion in several Babthorpe pedigrees that the wife of John I Vavasour
was Isabel Babthorpe (including Glover's p. 598 transcription of the Burton
Monasticon pedigree that John Watson earlier noted had many errors).
If Leo wants, he can link the Vavasours of Spaldington - and Isabella de la
Hay - to Lady Diana:
Gen 1. John I Vavasour of Spaldington b. perhaps 1405 d. bef 31 Aug 1481, m.
perhaps 1435 Isabel de la Haye b. perhaps 1415, d. bef 31 Aug 1481. John I
is @ genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00609092&tree=LEO , no wife or
children noted. He is correctly shown as son of Sir Henry Vavasour m.
Margaret Skipwith.
Gen 2. William Vavasour (heir of Spaldington of his brother John II), b.
perhaps 1445, m. perhaps 1465, Alice Mallory.
Gen 3. Sir Peter Vavasour of Spaldington, b. perhaps 1475, m. perhaps 1500,
Elizabeth Windsor dau of Andrew and Elizabeth Blount (the couple @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00119061&tree=LEO but dau Elizabeth
not shown.)
Gen 4. John Vavasour (heir of Spaldington of his brother George), b. perhaps
1510, m.(3) perhaps 1545, Julian Aske of Aughton (dau of John Aske Esq and
Eleanor Ryther). John @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00608229&tree=LEO , Julian @
genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00608230&tree=LEO , no children
shown for this couple, but their child Ralph is already in Leo's database.
Gen 5. Ralph Vavasour of Spaldington, b. perhaps 1550, m. Francis Darnell.
Ralph & Francis @ genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00565057&tree=LEO
, no parents shown). Leo shows Princess Diana as their descendant.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
---------
[1] See for instance Ravilious posts of 21 Sep 2006, with well sourced
extended pedigrees. Part I @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1158845262, Part
II (includes Thomas) @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1158845580 .
[2] Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I; Surtees Society; 1836; page 156 @
books.google.com/books?id=t-suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA156 . This John de la Haye was
most likely the brother of Peter, since Peter had a son named John who was
alive in 1404. It is unclear why a footnote referencing a son of Peter is
shown here.
[3] W Paley Baildon; 'Notes on the Early Savile Pedigree etc. : Section III
The Butlers of Skelbrook and Kirk Sandal'; Yorkshire Archaeological Journal;
Vol 29; pages 68-89, pedigree page 89.
[4] William Wheater; Some historic mansions of Yorkshire and their
associations, Volume 1, page 56 @
books.google.com/books?id=o4TkAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA56 . "In 1371 [8 Nov 1371 per
Cal Patent Rolls Edw III, Vol not accessible online, page 8] Walter Frost
gave forty marks for custody, without disparagement, of a messuage and two
carucates of land with their appurtenances in Spaldyngton, which belonged to
Thomas de la Haye, of Spaldyngton, deceased, who held of the heir of the
Baron of Greystok, within age and in the King's custody, by knight's service
and by the marriage of the heir of the said Thomas de la Haye."
Ravilious cited a record, perhaps misdated, suggesting Thomas de la Haye
d. aft 21 Dec 1379.
[5] HC Maxwell Lyte; 'Close Rolls, Edward III: January 1377', Calendar of
Close Rolls, Edward III: volume 14: 1374-1377 (1913), pp. 422-423. URL :
www..british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=106458 . [Proof of age] 14
Jan 1377. Westminster. To John Bygod escheator in Yorkshire. Order to
deliver to Peter son and heir of Thomas del Hay of Spaldyngton, tenant by
knight service of the heir of William baron of Greystok tenant in chief
being lately within age and in the king's wardship, all the lands which the
said Thomas held of the said heir and which were taken into the king's hand
by his death; as the said Peter proved his age before Gilbert de Culwen late
escheator, and the age of Ralph son and heir of the said baron being proved,
the king lately took his homage and fealty, and commanded livery to be given
him of his said father's lands. Also UK National Archives; PHC/254; Dec.
21st, 1379. Grant and quitclaim made before the Corporation of the city of
York, by Peter, son and heir of Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington, to William
de Bowes, of his rights on the manor of Streatlam and Stainton. Seals
missing.
[6] Testamenta Eboracensia, Vol III; Surtees Society; Vol 74 (1865); page
237 @ books.google.com/books?id=rzA8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA237 . The Frost family
were wealthy merchants - Walter, Elizabeth's father, was Mayor of Hull in
1372, her mother was Ellen Box whose father was also a mayor of Hull, and
her brother Walter m. Ellen Fetherstone, heir of Fetherstone from her father
Simon per a document on Chris Phillips' website. The Frost family of Hull,
Beverley and Fetherston is not well documented, the 2 Walter Frosts with
wives named Ellen being conflated.
[7] Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I; Surtees Society; 1836; page 312 @
books.google.com/books?id=t-suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA312 .
[8] Her parents were Sir Andrew Windsor, K.B. of Stanwell, a descendant of
Edw I, and Elizabeth Blount, a descendant of Henry III (and also Sancha de
Ayala), the royal descents shown in RPA (2004) page 476 sub Ludlow.
[9] A.S. Ellis; 'Vavasour of Spaldington [Note]'; Miscellanea Genealogica et
Heraldica; Joseph Jackson Howard editor; Vol II (1876); page 133 @
books.google.com/books?id=PSQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA133.
[10] Thomas Beckwith; 'Pedigree of the Family of Vavasour of Spaldington';
Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica; Joseph Jackson Howard editor; Vol I
(1868); page 193 @ books.google.com/books?id=76xBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA193. This is
the pedigree A.S. Ellis corrected.
[11] N.J.Miller; transcribing from 'The Leager Book' dated 1658; in
Transactions of the Harleian Society; Vol VI (1898), page 34 @
books.google.com/books?id=DmAJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA34
[12] UK National Archives; Final Concord WWM/D/51 1365. Plaintiffs: John
Fitzwilliam, knight and Elizabeth [de Clinton per FitzWilliam pedigree], his
wife. Deforciants: Thomas del Haye and Agnes, his wife. Fourth part of the
manor of Darthyngton, next to the town of Pontefract. Consideration, 100
marks of silver. St Michael in the one month, 1365.
UK National Archives; DD/SR/A11/12 [Transcribed as 9 Edw III (1335-6),
but likely 39 Edw III based on earlier record]. Final concord: John Fitz
William & Elizabeth his wife quaer[ient]. Thomas [del Haye] & Agnes his wife
def[endant] manor of Darlington near Pontefract, Yorks. [Likely the fine
associated with the final concord above.]
[13] archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-09/1063628270
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin B. Withers" <Colin....@eumetsat.int>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 8:36 AM
Subject: Thomas de la Haye and his 3 Babthorpe wives?
>I am trying to unravel the mystery of the Babthorpe wife of Thomas de la
>Haye, and would appreciate any guidance.
>
> The reason for my interest is in the descent of the manor of Spaldington
(in the parish of Bubwith in the East Riding of Yorkshire). I had always
accepted the explanation given in the Baronetage of England, that it
descended from Peter de la Haye (on his death in 1431) to his
grand-daughter, Isabel de la Haye, who passed it in marriage to the Vavasour
family.
>
> However, I see from the Feet of Fine abstracts on the medievalgenealogy
> website, that the Babthorpes held the manor in 1445-6:
>
> CP 25/1/280/159, number 30.
> Date: Two weeks from Holy Trinity, 23 Henry VI [6 June 1445]. And
> afterwards one week from St John the Baptist, 24 Henry VI [1 July 1446].
>
> Parties: Ralph Babthorp', Percival Cresacre, William Swelyngton' and
> Robert Babthorp', querents, and Richard Metham, esquire, and Margaret [nee
> Babthorpe], his wife, deforciants.
>
> Property: The manor of Spaldyngton' and 200 acres of land, 20 acres of
> meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood and 100 shillings of rent
> in Spaldyngton'.
>
>
> Agreement: Richard and Margaret have granted to Ralph, Percival,
> William and Robert the manor and tenements and have remised and
> quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph,
> Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> For this: Ralph, Percival, William and Robert have given them 300
> quitclaimed whatsoever they had in them for the life of Margaret to Ralph,
> Percival, William and Robert and the heirs of Ralph for ever.
>
> marks of silver.
> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_280_159.shtml
0 new messages