Kinship of Alice de la Plaunche, wife of Sir John de Montfort to Queen Eleanor of Castile
Douglas Richardson
Alice de Montfort, a known kinswoman of Queen Eleanor of Castile, can
be identified as Alice de la Plaunche, wife of John de Montfort, Knt.,
1st Lord Montfort, of Beaudesert and Whitley (in Wootton Wawen),
Warwickshire, Preston and Uppingham, Rutland, Ashtead, Newdigate, and
Redstone, Surrey, Hinton (in Hurst), Wiltshire, etc., and daughter of
William de la Plaunche [see C.P. 9 (1936): 128 (sub Montfort); Lewis,
Pedes Finium; or, Fines Rel. Surrey (Surrey Arch. Soc. Extra Volume 1)
(1894): 216; Genealogist n.s. 13 (1896): 243; Genealogist n.s. 14
(1897): 104]. This couple has many descendants.
Alice and John were married before 28 March 1287, when King Edward I,
in an unpublished letter, ordered his lieutenant in England to deal
favorably with John de Montfort who had married a cousin of the Queen
(see National Archives, S.C. 1/45/46). Alice was living in Easter
Term 1309, when William Morin of Kineton, Warwickshire was attached to
answer her “concerning a plea why with force and arms he entered the
castle of the same Alice at Beaudesert and took and carried away her
goods and chattels found there to the value of one hundred
shillings” [see M.S. Arnold, Select Cases of Trespass from the King’s
Court 1307–1399 1 (Selden Soc. 100) (1985): 126–127].
The exact nature of the kinship between Alice de la Plaunche and Queen
Eleanor of Castile has not been established. On the basis of
similarity of arms, however, it has been speculated that the de la
Plaunche family were a junior or cadet branch of the Fiennes family
[see, for example, Parsons, Court & Household of Eleanor of Castile in
1290 (1977): 41–55]. That the de la Plaunche and Fiennes families
were blood related is indicated by an item found in Raadt, Sceaux
Armoriés des Pays-Bas et Des Pays Avoisinants 3 (1900): 136, which
reads as follows:
"Willaumes de le Planke, chevaliers, sires de Heuchin, caution de son
cousin, Guillaume, seigneur de Fienles, chevalier, envers le conte de
Nevers, 1287: un lion et un semé de billettes. L[egend]: +
S' ............. t dni de Helchin (=Heuchin) (Chartes des comtes de
Flandre, No. 453)."
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eqosAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA136
The above named Guillaume de la Planche, a knight, is surely the same
person as Alice de la Plaunche's father. This record indicates that
he was seigneur of Heuchin in 1287 and that he was cousin to
Guillaume, seigneur of Fiennes. His arms are a lion and a semée of
billettes, which matches the arms of the de la Plaunche family
recorded in English records.
Guillaume de Fiennes named here as Guillaume de la Plaunche's cousin
can be readily identified as Sir Guillaume (or William) de Fiennes
(died 1302), seigneur of Fiennes and Tingry (Pas-de-Calais), and, in
England, of Wendover, Buckinghamshire, Fyfield and Lambourne, Essex,
Chokes and Gayton, Northamptonshire, Martock, Somerset, Carshalton and
Clapham, Surrey. Both William de Fiennes and his wife, Blanche de
Brienne, were near related to Queen Eleanor of Castile, wife of King
Edward I of England.
There is another record of this same Guillaume de la Plaunche,
seigneur of Heuchin, found in La Gorgue-Rosny, Recherches
Généalogiques sur les Comtés de Ponthieu, de Boulogne, de Guines 3
(1875): 1145–1147 (sub Le Plancque). This item reads as follows:
"Willaume, sire de Heuchin, donne une chart l’an 1300, en laquelle il
parle d’Arnould d'Ardre de Heuchin, son homme, et de Marguerite, sa
femme; son sceau est semé de billettes au lion de sable. (Cart. de St.-
Bertin).” END OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M0wWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1147
The above source indicates that Guillaume, seigneur of Heuchin, was
living in 1300, and the author cites as his source the Saint-Bertin
Cartulary. Once again the arms on the seal of Guillaume, seigneur of
Heuchin, matches the arms of the de la Plaunche family recorded in
English records.
There is a helpful account of the "Seigneurs of Helchin" found in the
book, Goethals, Dictionnaire Généalogique et Héraldique des Familles
Nobles de Royaume de Belgique 4 (1852). This account may be viewed at
the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0q5BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT568
Goethals states that that Guillaume de la Plancque was seigneur of
Helchin, Thiennes, Blaringhem, etc. He and Guillaume, seigneur of
Fiennes, and other contemporary men are mentioned in letters of
Reynold, Count of Guelders, dated 1289. According to Goethals,
Guillaume de la Plancque married Isabelle de Leschielle, daughter of
the seigneur of Walhain. Guillaume witnessed a charter dated 1284.
Goethals goes onto relate to Guillaume de la Plancque was succeeded by
his son and heir, Robert, who was likewise seigneur of Helchin,
Thiennes, Blaringhem, etc. But here is where a curious twist comes
in. Goethals notes that this Robert is identified by Pere Anselme as
being the son of Enguerrand, seigneur of Fiennes, but he says this is
an error advanced by genealogists of the Fiennes family.
Assuming Goethals is right, then it would seem that the connection
between Guillaume de la Plaunche and the Fiennes family must lie
somewhere else in Guillaume de la Plaunche's ancestry. Goethals
identifies Guillaume as being the son of a Baudouin de la Plancque who
was seigneur of Helchin, Thiennes, Blaringhem, and Steenbecque. The
name of the wife of Baudouin de la Plancque is unknown. Goethals
provides the extended male line ancestry of the de la Plaunche family
which indicates they were a separate and distinct family from the
Fiennes family.
Lastly I should mention that "Guillaume de la Planque Sire de Heuchin"
is mentioned in another record dated 1277 involving the Abbot of Saint-
Sauveur at Ham. In this record Guillaume's father, Bauduin de la
Plancque, is mentioned, Bauduin presumably then being deceased. This
record can be found in Bulletin Historique Trimestriel Années 1902 à
1906 (Société des Antiquaires de la Morinie) 11 (1907): 258. It may
be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JJM2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA258
Interestingly, Guillaume de Fiennes (here called Fueilles!!!) and his
wife, Blanche, had dealings with the same abbey in 1280, as indicated
by a record found on the same page.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my earlier post, I find there is a reference to a
seal of Guillaume de la Plaunche, chevalier, seigneur of Heuchin,
dated 1277 found in the journal, Bulletin de la Commission
départementale des monuments historiques du Pas-de-Calais, 5 (1932):
553-554. The description of this seal is taken from a manuscript
"recueil de chartes" written in 1657.
1277 (Ham), "Willaumes de le Planke, chlrs, sires de Heuchin":
[Legend] + S. Willi : de Plauca (sic) milit : dni : de : Helchin. -
Ecu billeté, au lion rampant (p. 97).
This item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5658255z/f282.pagination.r=hEUCHIN.langEN
This seal was evidently taken the agreement between "Guillaume de la
Planque Sire de Heuchin" and the Abbot of Saint-Sauveur at Ham in
1277, which I mentioned in my last post.
The author indicates that the "Le Planque" family is a branch of the
house of Fiennes, and this family carries the the following arms:
argent billeté de sable, au lion du même et crient Fiennes.
The author cites the following source for that statement: E. de Rosny,
Recherches généalogiques, t. II, p. 563.
However, given what Goethals has written concerning the de la Plaunche
family, it doesn't seem possible that the de la Plaunche family is a
branch of the Fiennes family. Goethals claims that Pere Anselme was
wrong about this. Certainly the arms of the two families aren't
identical.
There is reference to a charter of Guillaume de la Plaunche, seigneur
of Heuchin, found in the book, Les Chartes de Saint-Bertin (Société
des antiquaires de la Morinie), volume 2, published in 1891. This
item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6CMKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover
Specifically, there is a charter issued by Guillaume de la Plaunche,
seigneur of Heuchin, dated 1275, and it can be found on pages 122-124.
And, on page 164, in 1284 Baudoin de la Plaunche confirms the earlier
act of his father, Guillaume de la Plaunche, made in 1275.
Goethals doesn't mention this younger Baudouin de la Plaunche.
That the de la Plaunche family were near kin to Queen Eleanor of
Castile, wife of King Edward I, and to her son, King Edward II, is
proven by the following two references:
1. “[William], lord de la Plaunche styled “kinsman of the queen
consort,” cites E101/352/4 m.4. [Reference: Parsons Court & Household
of Eleanor of Castile in 1290 (1977): 48, 50].
2. Jak’ [Jacques] de la Plaunche styled “cousin” by Edward, Prince of
Wales [future King Edward II] [Reference: Letters of Edward Prince of
Wales 1304–1305 (1931): 131].
The arms of Sir Jakes (or Jacques/James) de la Plaunche can be viewed
at the following weblink:
http://www.briantimms.net/rolls_of_arms/rolls/stirlingST1.htm
This source shows that his arms were: Argent billetty a lion rampant
sable, which arms match those of Guillaume de la Plaunche, seigneur of
Heuchin.
If anyone has access to Chartes des Comtes de Flandre, No. 453, I'd
like to have it confirmed that Guillaume de la Plaunche, seigneur of
Heuchin, was actually called "cousin" by Guillaume, seigneur of
Fiennes.
Douglas Richardson
For "This seal was evidently taken the agreement"
Read "This seal was evidently taken from the agreement"
Douglas Richardson
I should note that in 1295, Sir John de Montfort (husband of Alice de
la Plaunche) attempted to present a William de la Plaunche, an alien,
to the church of Whitchurch. The presentation was not allowed as
William de la Plaunche was "not present," nor was he in holy orders.
Following Sir John de Montfort's death, his widow, Alice, in 1298
attempted to present the same individual who was then styled an
"acolyte." Once again the presentation was not allowed as William de
la Plaunche was not in holy orders.
The reference for the above presentations is Episcopal Registers.
Diocese of Worcester: Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard 1 (102):
ccxl. This may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5dxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR240
Since I don't find any further record of William de la Plaunche in
England, it seems possible to me that he is the same man who later
surfaces as Guillaume de la Plaunche, Dean of Amiens. There are two
Continental seals for a Guillaume de la Plaunche (or de la Planque), a
priest, in this time period These seals are included in the book,
Demay, Inventaire des Sceaux de la Picardie 2 (1875): 133 and
137-138. The first seal is dated 1311 and it is for Guillaume de la
Plaunche, canon of Amiens. The second seal is dated 1324 and it is
for Guillaume de la Plaunche, Dean of Amiens.
The first man bore these arms: Écu billeté au lion.
The second man bore these arms: Écu billeté au lion couronné.
The arms are slightly different but I suppose the seals are for the
same man. It seems possible that this is the same person that the
Montfort family tried to appoint to a living in England in the 1290's.
Kay Allen
If a Fiennes male married a de la Plaunche heiress, he might have assumed the
surname and arms of that family
and still been a Fiennes cadet. Or a Fiennes daughter might have married a de la
Plaunche, in which case, there would be a cousinship, but no cadet relationship.
K
________________________________
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 8:43:24 AM
Subject: Re: Kinship of Alice de la Plaunche, wife of Sir John de Montfort to
Queen Eleanor of Castile
Dear Newsgroup ~
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5658255z/f282.pagination.r=hEUCHIN.langEN
http://books.google.com/books?id=6CMKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover
http://www.briantimms.net/rolls_of_arms/rolls/stirlingST1.htm
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Duvall, Jeffery A
I tried to attach the hotlink, but I couldn't make it work. However, if you do a search in Google Books for Baudouin de Luxembourg and Mathilde de la Planque, it should bring up a list of hits that include the Gailliard book. It looks to me, at any rate, as though it's the same family, but again, the chronology is a complete mess and I've no idea how well regarded (if it's regarded at all) the work is, but who knows, it might yield something...
Cheers,
Jeff Duvall
Douglas Richardson
This should be a good weblink for the Gailliard book you mentioned.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KFVbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA428
I've examined the material in Gailliard. Yes, you're correct, it
seems to be a messy version of the same family about which Goethals
published. Very messy indeed.
The information I've found so far indicates that Guillaume de la
Plaunche, seigneur of Heuchin, occurs in 1275, 1277, 1284, 1287, 1289,
and 1300. These are solid dates. Guillaume de la Plaunche was the
son and presumably heir of Baudouin de la Plaunche, seigneur of
Heuchin, who was dead before 1277.
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my post regarding Guillaume de la Plaunche, Dean of
Amiens, I can now confirm now this individual was the son of Guillaume
de la Plaunche, seigneur of Heuchin, and his wife, Alide, and thus the
brother of Alice de la Plaunche, wife of Sir John de Montfort. This
Guillaume de la Plaunche was elected Dean of Amiens in 1315, and
occurs in charters until 1325.
This new information comes from the book, Daire, Histoire de la Ville
d'Amiens, 2 (1757): 172-173, which may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dIohOIdC0N4C&pg=PA172
The information in this book reads as follows:
"Guillaume des Planques ou de la Planque, fils de Guillaume de la
Planque, Chevalier Seigneur d'Heuchin, & de la nommée Ælide, fut élu
en 1315. Il paroit dans les Chartes jusqu'en 1325. Les Mémoires du
tems relévent ses bonnes qualités, sa science et ses libéralités
envers l'Eglise."
This information gives the name of the dean's mother as Ælide, which
information corrects Goethals. Thus, we now have the name of the
mother of Alice de la Plaunche, wife of Sir John de Montfort.
I might note there is a document involving Guillaume de la Planque,
professeur és-lois, canon of Amiens and Thérouanne, dated 1314 which
item is found in the book, Haigneré, Les Chartes de Saint-Bertin, 2
(1891): 249-250. This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IEcoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA249
This record dates from the year before Guillaume de la Plaunche became
Dean of Amiens.
Douglas Richardson
The book, Inventaire Analytique des Chartes des Comtes de Flandre, by
Jules de Saint-Genois, published 1843-6, pages 137-138, includes
several documents involving Guillaume, seigneur of Fiennes, dated
1287. These items may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ol1AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA137
The documents name four cousins of Guillaume de Fiennes in 1287:
1. Guillaume de Lyaumes, knight.
2. Guillaume de la Planke, knight, sire d'Helchin.
3. Gilles de Haveskerke, knight.
4. Jean, sire de Haveskerke, knight.
The second individual is Sir Guillaume de la Plaunche, seigneur of
Heuchin (or Helchin), who was the father of Alice de la Plaunche, wife
of Sir John de Montfort. This record confirms that Guillaume de la
Plaunche was blood related to the Fiennes family.
Concerning the other individuals, Gilles de Haveskerke is evidently
the individual of that name whose mother was Hermentrude d'Aire,
daughter of Philippe d'Aire and Beatrix, daughter and co-heiress of
Guillaume de Saint Omer. See the following weblink for Gilles'
parentage:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NlMUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA296
Guillaume de la Plaunche likewise has a connection to the Aire family,
his paternal grandmother being Adelis d'Aire, daughter of Baudouin
d'Aire, by his wife, Agnes, lady of Thiennes. See the following
weblink for that connection:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nj04AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA370
I assume the common Aire connection between the de la Plaunche and
Haverskercke families is the same connection they share to Guillaume
de Fiennes who has no known Aire ancestry. For Guillaume de la
Planche to be blood related to Queen Eleanor of Castile and to
Guillaume de Fiennes suggests that he shares a common descent with
them from the Dammartin family.
Possibly someone here on the newsgroup knows an Aire-Dammartin
connection behind all these people. That would be the easiest
explanation of these various kinships.
Douglas Richardson
wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< The book, Inventaire Analytique des Chartes des Comtes de Flandre,
by
> Jules de Saint-Genois, published 1843-6, pages 137-138, includes
< several documents involving Guillaume, seigneur of Fiennes, dated
< 1287. These items may be viewed at the following weblink:
<
< http://books.google.com/books?id=ol1AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA137
<
< The documents name four cousins of Guillaume de Fiennes in 1287:
<
< 1. Guillaume de Lyaumes, knight.
< 2. Guillaume de la Planke, knight, sire d'Helchin.
< 3. Gilles de Haveskerke, knight.
< 4. Jean, sire de Haveskerke, knight.
I haven't been able to identify the Guillaume de "Lyaumes" knight, who
was named above as a cousin of Guillaume (or William) de Fiennes
(husband of Blanche de Brienne) in 1287.
However, I've learned that Guillaume de Fiennes' father, Sir
Enguerrand de Fiennes (died 1270), had a nephew named William de
Flamunscheye in 1260 [see Cal. Close Rolls, 1259–1261 (1934): 37].
Perhaps Guillaume de Lyaumes is the same person as William de
Flamunscheye. The two surnames aren't exactly the same, but one name
could conceivably be a misreading of the other.
Does anyone recognize the correct spelling of Lyaumes or Flamunscheye?