Who was Eremburga of Mortain's father?
Peasemarch.
"In 1077, Roger married a second time, to Eremburga of Mortain,
daughter of William, Count of Mortain
(According to Wikipedia, William, Count of Mortain, died without issue.
So, how could Eremburga be his daughter?!)."
Clearly a reader has inserted the above parenthesis hoping that someone
will clarify the issue. I don't think the William, Count of Mortain,
who has an entry on Wikipedia could have been the father of this
Eremburga, as he was only born in 1074 himself. I've looked through the
archives of this group and found hints here and there that she was
either the daughter of Robert, Count of Mortain, William's father, or,
more possibly, the daughter of a different William, Count of Mortain,
altogether.
All I'd like to do is clean up the Wikipedia article, so I wonder if
anyone here could be of help. I'd need a reference to back me up.
Many thanks.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I don't think the William, Count of Mortain,
who has an entry on Wikipedia could have been the father of this
Eremburga, as he was only born in 1074 himself. >>
I think the point in doubt may be the birthyear for William. You can edit
that wiki page and add {{fact}} next to that, which will have the effect of
tagging that date as needing a citation. If no one gives a citation there within,
say a week, then you could feel free to edit out the year entirely.
Will Johnson
CE Wood
refutation of ES II #206 or ES III #693 which give her father as Robert
Comte d'Eu (d.8 Sep abt 1091), husband of Beatrice.
It would be premature to change dates for William, who may well not be
her father.
CE Wood
Peasemarch.
Cheers. Well, the more I look into this the more confused I get.
Certainly William, Count of Mortain, son of Robert, Count of Mortain,
was too young to have been Eremburga's father. That leaves two
candidates - but I can't clinch it either way.
One is Robert, Comte d'Eu.
I found a site with a section on Norman nobility which states
categorically that Eremburga was the daughter of Robert, Comte d'Eu and
Beatrice, but then follows up with the non-sequitur:
EREMBURGE de Mortain (-[1087]). Malaterra records the death of
"Eremburga filia Gulielmi comitis Mortonensis" wife of "comes Rogerius"
. . .
To me, that says she was the daughter of William, Count of Mortain.
Wikipedia seems to say that Robert Comte d'Eu actually married Matilda,
daughter of Roger and Eremburga. Something has to give there somewhere.
French Wikipedia says that Eremburga was the daughter of Guillaume
Guerlenc, Count of Mortain:
Eremburge de Mortain (vers 1080), appartenant elle-aussi à la haute
noblesse normande par son père Guillaume Guerlenc et par sa mère
Mathilde de la famille Montgommery.
Now this is more like it, except for the spooky and irritating fact
that Robert, Count of Mortain, married a Matilda, daughter of Roger of
Montgomery.
The trouble is that I can find no proof, as such, that Guillaume
Gerlenc was Eremburga's father. All the same, the circumstantial
evidence starts to mount up. It seems he was the original Count of
Mortain before having his title transferred to William I's brother,
Robert (of Mortain), for rebelling. And where did he slink off to then?
Apulia. OK, and what did Roger and Eremburga call their first child?
"Mauger" - which happens to be Guillaume Gerlenc's father's name. Also,
I don't think it should be readily assumed that Malaterra has made some
kind of mistake in saying that Eremburga's father was William, Count of
Mortain; people were so fussy about origins then that I can't see why
he should get it wrong.
WJho...@aol.com
buried at Grestain Abbey
married Matilda Montgomery daughter of
Roger of Montgomery, Earl of /Shrewsbury/ 1071- who d 27 Jul 1094/5
CE Wood
Robert II 2nd Comte d'Eu, died 8 Sep bet 1089-1093 was father to
Erembourge.
Roger de Hauteville, Conte di Sicilia, born abt 1031, died 22 June
1101, buried Abbazia S. Trinitá, Mileton, Calabria, Italia, married
Erembourge de Mortain, daughter of Robert II Comte d'Eu who died about
8 Sep 1091, buried l'Abbaye de Le Tréport, Somme, Picardie.
Robert Comte de Mortain, 1st Earl of Cornwall, born abt 1031 in
Normandie, died 8 Dec 1090, buried l'Abbaye de Grestain, Eure
Normandie. He was first cousin to Erembourge.
CE Wood
Peter Stewart
"Peasemarch." <qp1...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153867231.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The English and French versions of Wikpedia both have counts of Mortain from
different families mixed up. These were:
1. Robert, count of Mortain (or Avranches) was a son of Richard I the
Fearless, duke of the Normans, by an unknown concubine. He married firstly
Bilihildis, whose origin is not recorded (probably related to the comital
family of Maine), and secondly Ascelina, whose family is also unknown. By
one or other of these wives Robert had sons named William and Robert,
recorded in 1015, and another named Richard who was a monk at Fleury before
becoming count of Mortain briefly until he was deprived and exiled before
1026.
2. William Werlenc, who was apparently identical either with the William
above, living in 1015, or with William who was a son or grandson of Mauger,
count of Corbeil, in turn a son of Duke Richard I by Gunnor. William Werlenc
(aka Guilluame Guerlenc), who may have held Mortain, was evidently deprived
and exiled ca 1055/63.
3. Robert de Conteville, count of Mortain & earl of Cornwall, born after
1040, was a maternal half-brother of William the Conqueror. He died on 8
December 1090, having married Mathilde, daughter of Roger de Montgomery,
earl of Shrewsbury. Their son William, count of Mortain & earl of Cornwall,
married a lady named Adelaide (or Adilidis) by whom he had no known
offspring, and died as a monk at Bermondsey after 1140. This man, as you
say, cannot have been the father of Eremburge described as a daughter of
Count William of Mortain, since she was married to Count Roger Bosso ca 1077
and was dead by 1089, as recorded by Geoffrey Malaterra. Changing her
father's name to Robert is just a conjectural emendation of Malaterra, not
backed up by other evidence.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:EsExg.886$rP1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Peasemarch." <qp1...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1153867231.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>I found this on a Wikipedia article about Roger I, Count of Sicily:
>>
>> "In 1077, Roger married a second time, to Eremburga of Mortain,
>> daughter of William, Count of Mortain
>>
>> (According to Wikipedia, William, Count of Mortain, died without issue.
>> So, how could Eremburga be his daughter?!)."
>>
>>
>> Clearly a reader has inserted the above parenthesis hoping that someone
>> will clarify the issue. I don't think the William, Count of Mortain,
>> who has an entry on Wikipedia could have been the father of this
>> Eremburga, as he was only born in 1074 himself. I've looked through the
>> archives of this group and found hints here and there that she was
>> either the daughter of Robert, Count of Mortain, William's father, or,
>> more possibly, the daughter of a different William, Count of Mortain,
>> altogether.
>>
>> All I'd like to do is clean up the Wikipedia article, so I wonder if
>> anyone here could be of help. I'd need a reference to back me up.
>
> The English and French versions of Wikpedia both have counts of Mortain
> from different families mixed up. These were:
>
> 1. Robert, count of Mortain (or Avranches) was a son of Richard I the
> Fearless, duke of the Normans, by an unknown concubine.
This should read "Robert, count of Mortain (or Avranches) was perhaps a son
of Richard I the Fearless, duke of the Normans, by an unknown concubine."
The relationship is a speculation by David Douglas, not a certain fact.
Peter Stewart
Peasemarch.
> [snip]>
> Robert II 2nd Comte d'Eu, died 8 Sep bet 1089-1093 was father to
You say this - and I know that there's research to that end - but
it raises two loud questions:
1.Geoffrey of Malaterra wrote that Eremburga was the daughter of
William, Count of Mortain. Malaterra, who lived in Sicily at Catania,
was a contemporary Norman chronicler of Roger I, whom he knew
personally. He's an impeccable source.
2.Robert, Comte d'Eu is named on lists - how accurately, I don't
know - as marrying Matilda, the daughter of Roger and Eremburga.
Their first two children are listed as:
Mauger, Count of Troina.
Matilda, married Robert, Count of Eu.
Clearly, Robert can't be both Eremburga's father and the husband of
her daughter. Nor even, surely, would a son of Robert marry Robert's
grandchild.
How interesting, though, that Eremburga named her first child
"Mauger", which was the name of William, Count of Mortain's father.
We know also that William went to Apulia in around 1060 after he was
banished by William of Normandy. Eremburga married Roger, who often
campaigned in Apulia, in 1077.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< 2.Robert, Comte d'Eu is named on lists - how accurately, I don't
know - as marrying Matilda, the daughter of Roger and Eremburga.
Their first two children are listed as:
Mauger, Count of Troina.
Matilda, married Robert, Count of Eu. >>
Can you cite your source on this?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< You are confusing persons.
Robert II 2nd Comte d'Eu, died 8 Sep bet 1089-1093 was father to
Erembourge. >>
Actually I was adding a person. I do have all the persons you named
seperately, but it seems that a complete discussion on the descent of Eu from say 1050
to say 1150 might be helpful in this discussion.
Will
Walt O'Dowd
Most of the Wikis for Roger I seem to be based on the 1911 Britanica
article which refers to William , count of Mortain.
.
The French Wikipedia article for 'Hamon le Dentu' [Haimon Dentatus]
notes (without referenced sources):
"Son frère, Guillaume Guerlenc
<http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guillaume_Guerlenc&action=edit>
(/Werleng/, /Werlenc/, /Guerleng/), comte de Mortain (1032-1048
<http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1048>), régulièrement révolté contre le
duc Guillaume, est banni vers 1060 <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1060> ;
il s’exile en Italie <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italie> du Sud."
Found a mention in Jumieges text (page 194) on Gallica [
http://gallica.bnf.fr/document?O=N094621 ]:
"CHAP. XIX. Comment, ayant expulsé Guillaume Guerlenc du comté de
Mortain, le duc mit en sa place Robert, son frère utérin."
Walt O'Dowd
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Let's try something incomplete, viz the account from CP:
Richard I, duke of the Normans
|__________________________________________________
| |
Guillaume = Lesceline dau. of Turketil Richard II
count of Eu | Seigneur of Turqueville (half-brother
d. bef 1057 | She d. 26 Jan 1057/8 to Guillaume)
|
|
Robert, 1st s., = (1) Beatrice d. c. 1085
Count of Eu | (2) (probably) Helisende, parentage unknown
d. betw. 1089 |
and 1093 |
|
|
William, count of Eu, = (1) Beatrice sis. of Roger de Builly,
lord of Hastings | lord of Tickhill
2nd s, 1st surv. | (2) (possibly) Helisende, dau. of
d. c. 1095-6 | Richard fitz Toustain Goz, sis. of Hugh,
| earl of Chester, d. aft. 1095
______|
|
|
Henry, count of Eu = (1) Maud, parentage unknown, d. c. 1109
lord of Hastings (2) Hermentrude, parentage unknown
d. 12 Jul 1140 _(3) Margaret, dau. of Guillaume of Champagne,
| who was bro. of K. Stephen and s. of
| Etienne count of Champagne.
| She d. c. 1145
_______|
|
|
John, count of Eu = Alice, dau. of William d'Aubigny, earl of Arundel
1st s. & hr. and Adelise the queen
In 1166 had 73 She d. in or before 1188
knights fees.
d. 26 Jun 1170
I have included the corrections from volume XIV which adds that there is
an article on "The Counts of Eu" in the Yorks Arch. Top. Assoc. Journal,
vol ix, of 1886, p. 271-3. This article cause CP to make several
corrections to the accounts of the 2nd and 3rd counts of Eu, Robert and
William. In particular there seems to be two people called William of
Eu around 1095.
There are no relevant corrections on Chris Phillips' CP correction site:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/index.shtml
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
WJho...@aol.com
Beatrice, followed by a Helisende
That seems to defy logic :)
Will
Peasemarch.
I don't know what the source is, or even if the information is
accurate. What I do know is that this list of Roger's children crops up
all over the internet when you type in "Roger I" ("Answers.com", and
places like that, but also some more genealogical sites.)
It's starting to get to me, this. I can't possibly suggest that
Eremburga was the daughter of Robert, Count of Eu, if, two lines down
the same article it says that her daughter married Robert, Count of Eu.
It's madness.
I had hoped to solve the parentage of Eremburga; but it looks like the
best I will be able to do is to unlink "William, Count of Mortain",
supposed to be Eremburga's father, from the article on William, Count
of Mortain, son of Robert, Count of Mortain (brother of William I).
That at least will be a mercy.
All Wikipedia requires is verification, not proof. In other words: if
Malaterra said that Eremburga's father was William, Count of Mortain,
then that's a verification and the information can stand. I'm not happy
with that, but still.
CE Wood
father, but her stepdaughter. And this kind of "inter" marriage was not
unusual.
CE Wood
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< It's starting to get to me, this. I can't possibly suggest that
Eremburga was the daughter of Robert, Count of Eu, if, two lines down
the same article it says that her daughter married Robert, Count of Eu.
It's madness. >>
Its simple if there was more than one Robert, Count of Eu though.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I had hoped to solve the parentage of Eremburga; but it looks like the
best I will be able to do is to unlink "William, Count of Mortain",
supposed to be Eremburga's father, from the article on William, Count
of Mortain, son of Robert, Count of Mortain (brother of William I).
That at least will be a mercy. >>
Perhaps it would be useful to post to wiki the discussion on the two (or
three) possible Williams who might have been the Count of Mortain.
Will
Peasemarch.
CE Wood wrote:
> It was not Erembourge's daughter who supposedly married Erembourge's
> father, but her stepdaughter. And this kind of "inter" marriage was not
> unusual.
>
> CE Wood
>
The older Matilda married Count Raymond IV of Toulouse, and that holds
up. On the other hand, she wasn't his last wife, so did she remarry?
Peasemarch.
Yes, I am going to post the elements of this discussion up there. I'm
becoming slightly discouraged about the possibility of a definitve
answer, though. I've already made a small comment on the French page,
in somewhat crap French.
May I thank everyone here for helping me with this.
Peasemarch.
There's this gibberish, I suppose::
MATHILDE of Sicily, daughter of ROGER I Count of Sicily & his first
wife Judith d'Evreux (1062-before 1094). According to Houben[257],
Mathilde who married Robert Comte d'Eu was the daughter of Roger I
Count of Sicily by his second wife, and a different person from
Mathilde his daughter by his first wife who married Raymond Comte de
Saint-Gilles. No source is quoted, but this seems unlikely from a
chronological point of view as Roger's second marriage took place in
[1077], and Robert Comte d'Eu died in [1089/93]. In addition, it seems
unlikely that Roger, at the height of his power as Count of Sicily in
the late 1080s, would have agreed to his daughter's marriage to an
obscure count in northern France at the same time as arranging royal
marriages for his other daughters. She married secondly ([1080],
divorced [1088]) as his second wife, Raymond de Toulouse Comte de
Saint-Gilles, who later succeeded as Raymond IV Comte de Toulouse.
children of first marriage:
I've read that repeatedly and can't make any sense of it.
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:bbc.218bcb...@aol.com...
How so? The only "simple" fact here is that a primary source tells us
Eremburge was daughter of William, count of Mortain. (This was most
plausibly William Werlenc, exiled from Normandy ca 1055/63.)
Why has anyone decided that her father might instead have been Robert, count
of Eu? And why imagine that there were two or more Roberts in the first
place?
Genealogy needs to stick closer to evidence than this thread is doing so
far. We don't have definite knowledge of the early counts of Mortain,
especially of William Werlenc, but that is not a license to invent
alternatives on the fly.
Peter Stewart
Peasemarch.
Thanks for that clear-headed comment. I'm certainly coming to the
conclusion that Malaterra's words have to stand; individual readers can
then pick the bones out of them as they wish.
Peter Stewart
> CE Wood wrote:
>> [snip]>
>> Robert II 2nd Comte d'Eu, died 8 Sep bet 1089-1093 was father to
>> Erembourge.[snip]
>
> You say this - and I know that there's research to that end - but
> it raises two loud questions:
>
> 1.Geoffrey of Malaterra wrote that Eremburga was the daughter of
> William, Count of Mortain. Malaterra, who lived in Sicily at Catania,
> was a contemporary Norman chronicler of Roger I, whom he knew
> personally. He's an impeccable source.
>
> 2.Robert, Comte d'Eu is named on lists - how accurately, I don't
> know - as marrying Matilda, the daughter of Roger and Eremburga.
>
> Their first two children are listed as:
>
> Mauger, Count of Troina.
> Matilda, married Robert, Count of Eu.
>
> Clearly, Robert can't be both Eremburga's father and the husband of
> her daughter. Nor even, surely, would a son of Robert marry Robert's
> grandchild.
>
> How interesting, though, that Eremburga named her first child
> "Mauger", which was the name of William, Count of Mortain's father.
I wouldn't set too much store by this - the name Mauger was already in the
Hauteville family, one of the older brothers of Roger Bosso being Mauger,
count of Capitanata (died 1058/9), so the fact that he had a son of this
name can't very well prove that his wife was the granddaughter of another
Mauger.
Orderic Vitalis says that William Werlenc's father was Count Mauger, but as
I posted earlier David Douglas has doubted this information (not for
convincing reasons in my view).
Peter Stewart
CE Wood
and second the wife of Raymond IV Comte de Toulouse, was the daughter
of Roger I de Hauteville, Conte di Sicilia by his first wife, Judith,
daughter of William Comte d'Evereux and Havoise d'Echauffour.
ES also states that she and Robert Comte d'Eu were divorced, after
which she married Raymond abt 1080.
Roger had another daughter Matilda who married Guigues VIII Comte de
Grenoble at d'Albon, by she was by his third wife, Adelaide di Savona.
The problem seems to be in reconciling the usually reliable secondary
sources.
CE Wood
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Its interesting that CP has both William and Robert, each married to a
> Beatrice, followed by a Helisende
But the various authors changed the story between Vol V and vol XIV and
thus said that the first Helisende was a ;probable' and second on a
'possible'
> That seems to defy logic :)
Not really when you see the considerable care with which they tried to
make sense of very remote documents. It is worth reading both the CP
accounts and very likely also the article by E.C. Waters on "The Counts
of Eu"; I got the impression that that article was core to CP's change
of views.
Peter Stewart
"CE Wood" <woo...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1153977545.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hmmm.. According to ES, Matilda, first the wife of Robert Comte d'Eu
> and second the wife of Raymond IV Comte de Toulouse, was the daughter
> of Roger I de Hauteville, Conte di Sicilia by his first wife, Judith,
> daughter of William Comte d'Evereux and Havoise d'Echauffour.
> ES also states that she and Robert Comte d'Eu were divorced, after
> which she married Raymond abt 1080.
This is misguided conjecture in ES, not at all sustainable from the
evidence.
Malaterra reports the marriage of Count Roger's daughter Matilda to Count
Raimond (nowadays usually numbered VI not IV) in 1080. Her mother was stated
to be Roger's first wife, and she herself was clearly not the divorced wife
of Robert of Eu or anyone else - Malaterra particularly described her as a
young girl when she was offered by her father in marriage to the celebrated
Count Raimond, then in a poem about the union and Matilda's leaving her
parents for a husband he her calls her a virgin.
Peter Stewart
Peasemarch.
I think it does add up that Mauger was William's father (or possibly
grandfather: William does appear active for rather a long time).
*
I did notice that Roger Bosso had a Mauger in his family - but all the
moire reason to use the name for the first child with a wife who also
had that name in her family. Of course, I can't set store by this pure
speculation. But I do notice an absence of the name Mauger from family
of the Comtes d'Eu, and people were very repetitive in such matters
(Roger actually had three daughters called Matilda, which is very
annoying of him.)
WJho...@aol.com
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:
<< Malaterra reports the marriage of Count Roger's daughter Matilda to Count
Raimond (nowadays usually numbered VI not IV) in 1080. Her mother was stated
to be Roger's first wife, and she herself was clearly not the divorced wife
of Robert of Eu or anyone else >>
I would also point out that if this Matilda is supposed to be the mother of
"Mauger, Count of Troina" as was posited in this thread earlier, this is
chronologically impossible, based on her mother Judith d'Evreux being born in 1062
and this Matilda supposedly only being married to Robert Count d'Eu for at most
five years as an infant.
Rather, the wife of Roger (if indeed they were the parents of some "Mauger,
Count of Troina"), must be at least a decade older than this particular Matilda.
Will Johnson
Peasemarch.
I'm not sure anyone did posit that. Mauger is supposed to be the son of
Eremburga, Roger's second wife. It is her daughter, another Matilda,
who's supposed to have married Robert, Comte d'Eu, surely, not Judith's
daughter, Matilda, who is the one that married Raymond of Toulouse. I
don't believe that Judith was born in 1062, as she married Roger in
1061, apparently, and had four daughters before she died in 1076.
Todd A. Farmerie
> Roger had another daughter Matilda who married Guigues VIII Comte de
> Grenoble at d'Albon, by she was by his third wife, Adelaide di Savona.
This is speculation.
Roger had a daughter Matilda who married Conrad, who was crowned King of
Germany during his father's lifetime, but d.v.p.s.p.
Guigues married a 'Queen' Matilda, and as this was the only known
Matilda who was a Queen and available to marry at the time, it has been
speculated that it was the widow of Conrad who Guigues married.
However, the same article that points this out also presents an equally
strong alternative fate for Conrad's widow. From most citations of this
article in regard to the question of Guigues' marriage (including one by
Charles Evans), you would think that the author unambiguously concluded
that widow Matilda married Guigues when this was far from the case, it
being only one of two possibilities, presented without indication of
which was thought the more likely.
taf
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I
don't believe that Judith was born in 1062, as she married Roger in
1061, apparently, and had four daughters before she died in 1076. >>
You are the one who posted that she was born in 1062 :)
You didn't state what your source was however.
Will
Peasemarch.
No, that was a quote (which I was describing as incomprehensible) from
the Norman Nobility site. In fairness to it, though, I think the 1062
referred to is the marriage date of Judith and Roger, not Judith's
birth date.