King John to Agnes Throckmorton Line - Was: Cecelia Tansley/Winslow/Throckmorton

[Chris Moore]

Andrei Z. and Karen L. Austin wrote:
>
> Dear Neale,
>
> Below is a quick descendancy for Agnes Throckmorton. Hope this helps a
> bit,
>
> Karen
>
> John "Lackland, King of England (24 Dec 1167 - 19 Oct 1216) & Agatha
> de Ferrers (not married): Daughter Joanna Plantagenet m. Llewelyn
> Fawr, Prince of North Wales:
>
> Llewelyn Fawr Prince - 13567 (1172 - 11 Apr 1240) & Joanna Plantagenet
> - 13573 (1191 - 2 Feb 1236/1237)
> | Elen verch Llewelyn* - 13566 (1207 - ) & John "The Scot" de
> Huntingdon Earl of Chester - 13333 (About 1191 - 1237)
> | Elen verch Llewelyn* - 13566 (1207 - ) & Robert de Quincy - 13593
> (About 1190 - )
> | David ap_Llewelyn - 13576 (1208 - ) & Isabella de Braose - 13577
> (About 1215 - )
> | Angharad verch Llewelyn - 13597 (About 1209 - ) & Maelgwn Fychan -
> 13598 (About 1205 - )
> | Margaret verch Llewelyn* - 13594 (About 1210 - 1263) & John de
> Braose - 13595 (About 1195 - 1233)
> | Margaret verch Llewelyn* - 13594 (About 1210 - 1263) & Walter de
> Clifford - 13596 (About 1200 - 1263)
> | | Maud de Clifford* - 13747 (About 1235 - 1282/1285) & William
> Longespee III_Duke - 13748 (About 1225 - 1257)
> | | Maud de Clifford* - 13747 (About 1235 - 1282/1285) & John Gifford
> Sir - 13749 (1232 - 29 May 1299)
> | | | Eleanor Gifford - 13750 (About 1267 - 23 Jan 1324/1325) & Fulke
> le Strange 1st_Lord - 13751 (1267 - 23 Jan 1324/1325)
> | | | | Elizabeth Strange - 13752 (About 1290 - 1375) & Robert Corbet
> - 13753 (About 1290 - )
> | | | | | Joan Corbet - 13754 (About 1305 - ) & Robert de Harley Sir -
> 13755 (About 1305 - )

As K. Allen just pointed out in an earlier post today, this line has
been fairly well shown by Neil Thompson in a 1980 issue of _The
Genealogist_ to be false. The Robert de Harley who was father of Joan
de Harley was a different man from the Robert de H. who was the husband
of this particular Joan Corbet. See also Weis' _Ancestral Roots_, 7th
ed., line 29a, generations 33 and 32.

> | | | | | | Joan de Harley - 13756 (About 1325 - ) & John de Besford -
> 13757 (About 1325 - )
> | | | | | | | Alexander de Besford - 13758 (About 1345 - 1403) &
> Beatrice Lech_or_de_Thorndon - 13759 (About 1345 - 1404)
> | | | | | | | | Agnes de Besford - 13760 (About 1360 - After 1428) &
> Thomas de Throgmorton Sir - 13761 (1355 - About 1412)
> | | | | | | | | | John Throckmorton Sir - 9361 (About 1380 - 13 Apr
> 1445) & Eleanor de Spiney - 13762 (About 1385 - )
> | | | | | | | | | | Agnes Throckmorton Lady - 9359 (About 1420 - ) &
> Thomas Winslow - 9356 (About 1400 - 1463)
> | Gwenllian verch Llewelyn - 13775 (About 1212 - )
>
> At 5:06 PM -0600 8/13/97, Neale Millet wrote:
> >Does anyone have the ancestry of the Agnes Throckmorton who married
> Thomas
> >Winslow? (snip to end)

Chris Moore

[kabo...@worldnet.att.net]

Karen Austin gave a line from King John of England through Fulk le
Strange, to Joan Corbet. Chris Moore responded:

> As K. Allen just pointed out in an earlier post today, this line has
> been fairly well shown by Neil Thompson in a 1980 issue of _The
> Genealogist_ to be false. The Robert de Harley who was father of Joan
> de Harley was a different man from the Robert de H. who was the husband
> of this particular Joan Corbet. See also Weis' _Ancestral Roots_, 7th
> ed., line 29a, generations 33 and 32.

Is the line good down to the two Robert de Harleys? I'm a descendant of
Fulk le Strange, 1st Lord Strange, but didn't know he was descended from
King John.

John Steele Gordon

[Todd A. Farmerie]

No. It cannot be proven that Margaret ferch Llywelyn was daughter of
Llywelyn ap Gruffudd by Joan. (There is absolutely no reason to prefer
this maternity to Llywelyn's other wive/mistresses.) There would be a
valid line from Henry II, through the Longespees, to Robert de Harley,
and likewise there are valid descendant of Robert de Harley and Joan
Corbet (covered in an article in a subsequent issue of the Genealogist),
but this descent from John cannot be accepted at this time.

taf