The parentage of Sir Walter Devereux who m. Agnes Crophull: Walter, not William.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Unfortunately there is no way around this... how do you correct the record of a family that has had its pedigree reproduced incorrectly in so many secondary sources? The parents of Sir Walter Devereux, who married Agnes Crophull, were not William Devereux and Anne Barre. Here is what I have found:

CLOSE ROLLS

As recorded in the Close Rolls [H.C. Maxwell Lyte, ed. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2 (1920)] on page 218 and states the following:

Oct. 25, 1382, Westminster.

"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Heretfordshire."

https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?

Close Rolls source does in fact name Walter as the son of Walter Devereux and not William, and they are accompanied by a knight in the service of John de Crophull, the grandfather of Agnes Crophull, who was still alive at that time in 1382.

HISTORY OF PARLIAMENT ONLINE

"son and heir of Walter Devereux, Knt., by his wife, Maud. They had four sons, Walter, Esq., John, Richard, and Thomas, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret."

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402

TIMELINE (myself)

Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:

1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.

William Devereux died about 1376 so it is impossible for him to have accompanied his supposed son in 1382. The youngest Walter wasn't born until at least 1386, so he wasn't even alive in 1382. The Close Rolls cannot have made an error regarding the name Walter or it naming his son. The Close Rolls for 1382 must be correct, and Sir Walter, Knt./MP was born of Walter and not William. Somewhere along the way, a generation was skipped and HOP is one of the few sources that I have seen that has it right.

Therefore, as of now, this is what I am now working with to sort out:

William Devereux, m. Anne Barre
Walter Devereux, Knt., m. Maud?
Walter Devereux, Knt. and MP for Herefordshire, m. Agnes Crophull

I have yet to find a source from HOP where Maud, wife of the father Walter, is recorded.

I hope this was clear and this is not an easy task to sort out this mess in full!

Darrell E. Larocque

[Darrell E. Larocque]

CPR, 1367-70, p. 367, provided by HOP, does indeed name Maud as wife of Walter the father in 1370:

"Walter Deveros [sic] and Maud, his wife, hold for the life of Maud of the inheritance of the said John so of Henry [Le Frene]", 10 February 1370.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081105&view=1up&seq=379&skin=2021

Darrell E. Larocque

[Will Johnson]

Could yo post the exact language from CP that states that William died *in* 1376?

[Darrell E. Larocque]

January 1377 from the Close Rolls is a much better source:

Calendar of the Close Rolls, Edward III, vol. 14. 1374-1377 (London, 1913)
Membrane 23, 27 January 1377, where it is mentioned that he is dead, so 1376/1377 would be more accurate.

"Order to the sheriff of Hereford to cause a coroner to be elected instead of William Deverose, who is dead"

https://archive.org/details/cu31924091767982/page/477/mode/1up?view=theater

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

11 September 1357 (CPR, 1354-1358 Edward III v.10.), p. 616, mentions "Walter Deverous" hunting on the property of Sir Richard de Acton, Knt.:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079323&view=1up&seq=658&skin=2021

Since it is 1357, this simply cannot be the Sir Walter Devereux, Knt./MP who died in 1401. The only other Walter Devereux of record then was Sir Walter Devereux, married to Margaret de Braose, and he died in the early 14th century. The conflation of two Walter Devereux males has to be the answer, does it not?

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Further evidence provided by Michael Cayley:

"The Walter of this profile was first contracted to marry Margaret Seys, daughter of Walter Seys. That marriage was annulled in January 1371 (probably 1371/2). In the annulment he is described as Walter son of Sir Walter."

See the National Archives catalogue entry at

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/ec0bf13f-d69e-4958-ab98-1e970f9d7768

I am going to be compiling this evidence as well as the sourcing from the Wikipedia articles on William, Sir Walter, and Sir Walter MP... the inline sources are excellent despite them being on Wikipedia and help to make a very strong case for conflation of Sir Walter Devereux males.

Darrell

[Will Johnson]

Walter /Devereux/ of Bodenham
adult by about 1331 when he witnessed a grant
who
d.s.p.
Abt 1359

son of Stephen /Devereux/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Devereux_of_Bodenham_and_Burghope

might be the one who was hunting in 1357

[Darrell E. Larocque]

True... however, he died without issue and just another Walter Devereux to cross off the list of not possibles! By my calculations, he would have been in his late 40s and since he did die in 1359, would he have been that healthy roaming the woods in search of a deer on someone else's land? It's funny to picture!

Thank you!

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I found the third record I have been looking for that HOP had mentioned (8 Feb 1382), and so here is a summary:

(1) In a January, 1371 record in the Devereux Papers currently held at Longleat House, The National Archives of Great Britain Discovery (online) records the following:

"Notification by the Commissary General in the Archdeaconry of Brecknock of the annulment of the marriage of Walter, son of Sir Walter Devereux (Deveros), and Margaret, daughter of Walter Seys."

Devereux Papers, Reference: DE/BOX 1/2, January 1371, Longleat House Collection

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/ec0bf13f-d69e-4958-ab98-1e970f9d7768


(2) In a 8 February 1382 record in the ''Calendar of the Patent Rolls'' for the reign of Richard II, it states the following:

:"Commission to Nicholas de Audeley, John de Burley the elder, Richard de Burley, Walter Deveros, Roger Berde, Walter Deveros the younger and Simon de Brugge, sheriff of Hereford, to arrest William Solers, outlawed in that county for not appearing before the justices of the Bench to satisfy the King"

Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Patent Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2: 1381-1385'', (London: 1897), pp. 132-133.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015009337612&view=1up&seq=142


(3) In a 25 October 1382 record in the ''Calendar of the Close Rolls'' for the reign of Richard II, it states the following:

"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Herefordshire."

Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Close Rolls, Richard II, Vol. 2, 1381-1385'', (London: 1920), p. 218.

https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?


No mention of Sir Walter Devereux the father appear after 26 November 1383 that I could find. Here is the last:

"On 26 November 1383, Sir Walter presented a writ for his service representing Herefordshire at Parliament for 40 days for the sum of 16l along with Sir Andrew Herle."

Calendar of the Close Rolls, Richard II, Vol. 2, 1381-1385', p. 415.
https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/415/mode/1up?


Darrell E. Larocque

[John Higgins]

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:29:41 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

> > > Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
> > >
> > > 1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
> > > 1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
> > > 1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
> > >

> Could yo post the exact language from CP that states that William died *in* 1376?

Darrell didn't say that William "died *in* 1376" - he said "1376 (ca.)". And CP 4:296 says that William "d. in 1376/7". That's "ca" enough for me.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

John,

Since I posted this, I have now found three different sources that have father and son and Walter and Walter but thank you nonetheless!

I just cannot figure why his father Walter would just disappear after 1383... no will, IPM or burial indication... I figure that the inheritance offered by his wife Agnes Crophull was FAR more substantial and he decided to pursue it only. I have learned a lot more!

Darrell E. Larocque

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I have found another record which places the birth year of Sir Walter at least prior to 1342.

This cannot be the Sir Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux, because he died ca. 1359. I am STILL awaiting availability of the Cooke source to verify that he died ca. 1359, for it is vital.

The first record of Sir Walter (who is a Knight by then) comes on 13 February 1362, where Thomas de Burley, prior of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem in Ireland, chose Sir Walter (called 'chevalier') as one of his attorneys in England for a year while he was out of the country.

Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Close Rolls, Henry III, Vol. 12, 1261-1264'', (London: 1936), p. 472.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081089&view=1up&seq=484&skin=202

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Two records which substantiate the correct parents, Sir Walter Devereux 'the Elder' and Maud, and the son, Sir Walter Devereux 'The Younger' and Agnes:

(1) The establishment of the age of Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux of Bodenham and uncle of Sir Walter 'the Elder'. The 11 May 1359, his uncle Walter confirmed (himself aged "50 years or more") the age of Edmund, son and heir of Reynold le fitz Herbert.

Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol 10, 26-34 Edward III: 1352-1361', p. 433, Record no. 531.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0066756867&view=1up&seq=475&skin=2021&q1=Walter

(2) The 12 July 1378 which is a grant of special grace that was given by King Richard II to Sir Walter and his heirs of a weekly market on Tuesdays at their manor of Bodenham and an annual fair there for both the vigil and morrow of The Assumption.

Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Charter Rolls: 15 Edward III to 5 Henry V. A.D, vol. 5: 1341-1417''. (London: Hereford Times, Ltd., 1916), p. 248.

https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte05greauoft/page/248/mode/1up?q=Deveros&view=theater

SUMMARY
The only other Walter Devereux within the timeline for the subject Sir Walter Devereux 'the Younger' and Agnes Crophull independent of a possible (now probable) father was Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux (d. 1350). Establishing the age of this Walter son of Stephen is crucial as is his death, and his age of over 50 in 1359 (1) means that he would have been dead (as the Cooke source states 1359 Cooke may have taken this as his last record instead of his death), which I still cannot locate online) before any of the other records I have presented here from 1377 on as the manor at Bodenham was in the possession of his younger brother, William Devereux of Bodenham, who definitely died in January 1377.

So (2) is important because it refers to "Sir Walter of Bodenham" in July 1378 which is different than any other reference to Sir Walter who now I know is 'the Elder' because of the father and son references I have presented here previously. The manor of Bodenham passed to Sir Walter, who must be 'the Elder' without any documentation. This explains the conflation of the two Sir Walters and as there is also no IPM or death indicator for Sir Walter 'the Elder', his existence was seemingly lost to history except for The History of Parliament Online, who correctly identified the missing Sir Walter 'the Elder'.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402

I have documented every single instance of the Walters on these two profiles. Sir Walter 'the Younger''s profile is still full of some of the older presumptions, so please ignore those odd bits.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-779
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-43

Darrell E. Larocque

[jma...@msn.com]

I am trying to see if Ann alleged wife of Roger Vaugn was a Devereux, maybe a sister of Sir Walter Devereux who married Agnes Crophill. Relationships among subsequent generations of Vaugns, Herberts, Harewells and Devereuxs, suggest her being a Devereux would not be unlikely. Anyway, I had the follow SGM post in my file that you have probably seen, but if not might be of interest.

From: Richard Borthwick (rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au)
Subject: DEVEREUX
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1999/07/05
...
8 Sir Walter DEVEREUX, of Weobley, Herefs. Died 25 Jun 1402.
[CIPM 15:958-962; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons,
1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783-784]
9 Agnes de CROPHULL. Born 1371/1372 in Chabbenore, Herefs, England.
Died 3 Feb 1436. Occupation Heir of her grandparents.
Agnes was heir of her grandfather Sir John Crophull.
[CIPM 15:958-962; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons,
1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783-784, 3:716, 718, 719]
…
16 Sir Walter # DEVEREUX, of Bodenham. Died After 1382.
Sir Walter may have been the brother of John, lord Devereux
(d.1393). [CP IV:296 and note (d); *History of Parliament: The House of
Commons, 1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783]

17 Maud.
[*History of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421* (HMSO,
1992) 2:783]

32 William DEVEREUX, of Bodenham, Herefs. Died 1376/1377.
[CP IV:296; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421*
(HMSO, 1992) 2:783]

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I'm glad you responded with this, because I have something for you!

I have the HOP/CIPM/CP sourcing that you sent and, the HOP source is the only correct one for the father of Sir Walter the Younger.

I found this TODAY, and although I had no idea how it fits in with the Devereux family, it may definitely help you!

This I believe is the Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux of Bodenham and uncle of Sir Walter the Elder:

CIPM X:433, Record no. 531

"Reynold le fitz Herberd, tenant in chief, having previously warned Thomas de Berkele of Berkele, in whose custody the lands of his inheritance are by the demise of Richard Talbot, who had the said custody by the king's commission.

Proof of age made at Hereford, Saturday after St. John before the Latin Gate, 33 Edward III. Walter Deveroys of Bodenham, aged 50 years and more, says that the said Edmund was 21 years old and more on the morrow of the Conversion of St. Paul last, having been born at Dynnevor in Wales and baptized in the church of Landavayesyn on the morrow of the Conversion of St. Paul, 12 Edward III, and this he knows because on the Sunday after the birth of the said Edmund he started on his journey to Santiago."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0066756867&view=1up&seq=475&skin=2021&q1=Walter

Thank you so much!

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I have examined the record for the Devereux memorial in Bodenham Church, which memorialized a Devereux knight in the service of Richard II. These are my conclusions as the moment.

Charles J. Robinson in his work ''A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire'' describes the former home of Sir Walter as "the manor-house, formerly called “ Devereux Court” and now the “Moat,” is situated near the Church, and is a timber mansion of great antiquity. It probably formed the residence of Sir Walter Devereux ['the Elder'] who was Sheriff, 50 and 51 Edward III."

Charles J. Robinson. ''A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire'', (London: Longmans and Co, 1873), p. 30.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044010403004&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021


The probable memorial to Sir Walter 'the Elder' that was once in Bodenham Church was sketched by Dingley in his work ''History From Marble, Part I'' and he recorded the memorial as "a knight in chain-armour with a sleeveless surcoat over the hawberk. The sword is on the right side and attached to a jewelled belt. The hands are crossed above the breast, on which are depicted the arms of Devereux. These are repeated at intervals on the upper plinth, where a French inscription is partially legible." and present was "The arms of Richard II, and his device of a White Hart."

Thomas Dingley. ''History from Marble: Compiled in the Reign of Charles II'', (Camden Society, 1867), p. 92, ccxxxvi.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x002220024&view=1up&seq=338&skin=2021

Darrell E. Larocque

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I forgot to add my conclusions.

The memorial to Sir Walter 'the Elder', formerly at Bodenham Church, although only named "Devereux", gives us a large clue as to who the knight depicts. The shield on the memorial at Bodenham represented service to King Richard II, who reigned from July 1377 to 29 September 1399. This means that it could have been either Sir William Devereux, who died in 1379 (which is highly unlikely, since he only served him for a short time) or Sir Walter 'the Elder', who died after 26 November 1383, who was a Member of Parliament and was well known by the King as he regularly appeared in the Rolls. His son, Sir Walter 'the Younger', who died in June of 1401, was buried at Weobley, Herefordshire, obviously in a different place.

Darrell E. Larocque

[Darrell E. Larocque]

The last part of ''A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire'' on page 31 which specifically addresses the white hart I mentioned above.

"in the windows of which were to be seen the arms of Devereux and the cognizance of Richard II.—the white hart lodged—together with the arms of that monarch and those of Delabere, Lucy, and Brydges. All these memorials have now perished; the alabaster ; slab, on which the effigy of Sir Walter was incised, was broken into fragments at the restoration of the church in 1834."

Darrell E. Larocque

[Darrell E. Larocque]

My conclusion is now a certainty- I should have checked before, but Sir William Devereux of Bodenham who d. 1377 was buried at Hereford Cathedral, making Sir Walter 'the Elder' the only Devereux of the Bodenham line and the only Knight of that time the sole candidate. Robinson was correct in saying that it was a memorial to Sir Walter, but chooses not to address in his pedigree who this Sir Walter is. This is how obscured his existence was and to have a Knight and an MP who had such a beautiful memorial be obliterated from memory in my opinion is a disservice and I am hoping that his memory can be restored in future publications.

Darrell