Boso de Périgord's wife
JBernigaud
of Périgord at the 10-11th centuries? More precisely, I would like to know
if the count of Périgord Boso II's wife(Boso himself was the son of Boso
the Old, count of La Marche)was Adelmodis; according to Anselme, who was
writing in the 17th century, she was the second daughter of William of
Arles and Adelais of Anjou. Their first daughter, Constance, married
Robert le Pieux, king of France and son of Hugues Capet.
Peter Stewart
This error is discussed by Thierry Stasser on pp. 41-43 of 'Adélaïde
d'Anjou, sa famille, ses unions, sa descendance: état de la question",
_Le Moyen Âge_ 103 (1997): Anselme was following a mistaken statement in
the chronicle of Pierre de Maillezais, making Almodis the widow of Count
Boso at the time of her marriage to Count Guillaume III of Poitou (aka
Duke Guillaume V of Aquitaine). However, Boso was still alive at the
time, and Almodis was actually his former sister-in-law, widow of his
brother Count Aldebert.
Pierre de Maillezais also made her the daughter of "Candida", taken to
be the same as Adelais "Blanca" (i.e. white = candida) of Anjou. This
too is impossible to reconcile with other sources, and not plausible
given that the chronicler had already confused the wives of two brothers.
The name of Count Boso II's wife is unknown. He died from poisoning at
her hands according to Ademar de Chabannes, _Chronicon_, edited by
Pascale Bourgain, Richard Landes & Georges Pon, Corpus Christianorum,
Continuatio Mediaeualis CXXIX (Turnhout, 1999) p. 164.
Peter Stewart
JBernigaud
Boso II, my ancestor, and Anna of Macedonia, ancestor of William of Arles.
Then, I could have included the hypothesis developped by Christian
Settipani in "Nos ancêtres de l'Antiquité" in my genealogy.
But genealogy is, or should be as much as possible, a rigorous science!So,
I will forget this idea.
Thanks a lot.
Julien Bernigaud.
Peter Stewart
> Thank you for this information. I had the hope to make the link between
> Boso II, my ancestor, and Anna of Macedonia, ancestor of William of Arles.
> Then, I could have included the hypothesis developped by Christian
> Settipani in "Nos ancêtres de l'Antiquité" in my genealogy.
If you can trace a descent from Boso II of Perigord, it is highly likely
that you will find one also to Boso II of Avignon and his wife
Constantia to provide this possible link in another way.
However, I don't find the speculation behind it compelling: if Boso of
Avignon's wife had been a daughter of Charles Constantin (Carolus
Constantinus) of Vienne & named after her father, she would more
plausibly appear as "Constantina" rater than "Constantia".
The latter name was not by any means rare in the 10th and 11th centuries
as some people suppose, in women (and as "Constantius" in men) who could
not have been connected to the Macedonian dynasty.
For instance, in Burgundy the Cluny charters have a number of examples
whose name may have originated simply from the quality of constancy
and/or perhaps after a relative who had taken this name with religious vows.
Another candidate for the lineage you mention just on the basis of her
name is the wife of Manasses of Dammartin, placed as a daughter of King
Robert II and Constance for no better reason, and against circumstantial
evidence.
Peter Stewart
JBernigaud
going to study the sources about Charles Constantin's family, in order to
establish his different and most probable descendants. Do you know any
source or work about that subject?
Julien Bernigaud
Peter Stewart
It should first be remembered that definite proof of his maternity is
lacking. His father was certainly Emperor Louis the Blind, but Charles
Constantin was not able to inherit Provence from him or rights to
imperial succession, and becomae only count (or prince) of Vienne. His
legitimacy is usually accepted, although this was specifically denied by
Richer.
For all we know his possession of Vienne may be an indicator of his
mother's local origin & family rights - the name Constancius was not
uncommon there in the 10th century, and Constantinus also occurs: the
latter may have been in his case just a less usual variant of the
former. It should be emphasised that among his alleged descendants
through Queen Constance the form is "Constancia", not "Constantina"; and
the name for some reason never crossed back over the gender divide, in
spite of her own son's choice of an exotic Greek name for his heir
Philippe when the purportedly ancestral Constantine might have served
his needs at least as well.
Ulysse Chevalier's edition of _Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
Saint-André-le-Bas...suivi d'un appendice de chartes inédites sur le
diocèse de Vienne (IXe-XIIe siècles)_ (Lyons, 1869) contains several
different men of this name, including a few contemporaries who could not
possibly have been descendants of the Macedonian dynasty. If he was not
the son of the Greek princess Anna, Charles Constantin's mother (and or
Queen Constance's paternal grandmother for that matter) might have been
related to one or more of them.
Charles Constantin himself was married to a woman named Teutberga, who
occurs with him and two sons in a charter of ca 960. These boys were his
only recorded offspring, named Richard and Hugobert. They both disappear
from the record within a decade or so, and we don't know that either of
them reached adulthood or left descendants.
Attempts have been made to connect the house of Savoy to Richard, but
this is merely wishful guesswork.
The popularity of the supposed Byzantine ancestry of Charles Constantin
through his mother derives mainly from an article about him by Charles
Previté-Orton in _English Historical Review_ 29 (1914), and more lately
from the theories of Christian Settipani which you have noted.
Peter Stewart
jean bunot
> JBernigaud wrote:
> > Thank you again for this very interesting explanation. In fact,I think
> I'm
> > going to study the sources about Charles Constantin's family, in order
> to
> > establish his different and most probable descendants. Do you know any
> > source or work about that subject?
>
> It should first be remembered that definite proof of his maternity is
> lacking. His father was certainly Emperor Louis the Blind, but Charles
> Constantin was not able to inherit Provence from him or rights to
> imperial succession, and becomae only count (or prince) of Vienne. His
> legitimacy is usually accepted, although this was specifically denied by
>
> Richer.
>
> For all we know his possession of Vienne may be an indicator of his
> mother's local origin & family rights - the name Constancius was not
> uncommon there in the 10th century, and Constantinus also occurs: the
> latter may have been in his case just a less usual variant of the
> former. It should be emphasised that among his alleged descendants
> through Queen Constance the form is "Constancia", not "Constantina";
None of these Constantinus were of comital rank or high enough in the
feodal hierarchy to produce a countess of Arles and Avignon at any
time. All the Provence/Arles alliances that we know of are strictly
within that social sphere. This is were you have to look if you want
to suggest another set of parents. Constancia instead of Constantina
can not be a problem. Your are not talking about classic latin of
Cicero. We are in medieval southern France were latin was contaminated
by various forms of the Occitant languages. This is why you have
Joufré for Gauzfredus-Geoffroy, Azalaïs/Azalmoïs for Adelais-Adélaïde,
Guillem for Wilhelmus-Guillaume, Beltran/Bertran for
Bertrandus-Bertrand and Uc for Hugo-Hugues. As a matter of fact,
comparatively Constancia is pretty close to the classic latin
original.
>
> the name for some reason never crossed back over the gender divide, in
> spite of her own son's choice of an exotic Greek name for his heir
> Philippe when the purportedly ancestral Constantine might have served
> his needs at least as well.
No. It is ratter believe that the name Philippe arose trough the
influence of his mother Anne de Kiev because of her
oriental/"orthodoxe" byzantine-influenced background.
>
> Ulysse Chevalier's edition of Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
> Saint-Andr -le-Bas...suivi d'un appendice de chartes in dites sur le
>
> dioc se de Vienne (IXe-XIIe si cles) (Lyons, 1869) contains several
>
> different men of this name, including a few contemporaries who could not
>
> possibly have been descendants of the Macedonian dynasty. If he was not
> the son of the Greek princess Anna, Charles Constantin's mother (and or
> Queen Constance's paternal grandmother for that matter) might have been
> related to one or more of them.
>
> Charles Constantin himself was married to a woman named Teutberga, who
> occurs with him and two sons in a charter of ca 960. These boys were his
>
> only recorded offspring, named Richard and Hugobert. They both disappear
>
> from the record within a decade or so, and we don't know that either of
> them reached adulthood or left descendants.
Everybody in this forum already knows that 10th century charts and
cartularies frequently all together omitted or ignored woman who were
not heiresses and especially unmarried young girls or junior members.
>
> Attempts have been made to connect the house of Savoy to Richard, but
> this is merely wishful guesswork.
>
> The popularity of the supposed Byzantine ancestry of Charles Constantin
> through his mother derives mainly from an article about him by Charles
> Previt -Orton in English Historical Review 29 (1914), and more lately
>
> from the theories of Christian Settipani which you have noted.
Apart recently from Settipani, most if not all specialists of Provence
have INDEPENDENTLY hypothetize a direct link between Charles
Constantin and Constance (either sister or daughter) : J. Berge "Les
erreurs de l'histoire. Origines rectifiées des maisons féodales"
(1952); M. Chaume "Le sentiment national bourguignon de Gondebaud à
Charles le Téméraire" (1922); J.-P. Poli "La Provence et la société
féodale dans le Midi" (1976); S. de Vajay "Comtesses occitanes dans
la Marche d'Espagne au Xe et XIe siècles" (1980).
It can not be without a logical explanation, that the son of a
(destituted and blinded) Western Roman Emperor (and king of
Provence-Longobardie as well) was name Carolus Constantinus in a time
were onomastic was rather strict in ruling classes. He evidently
claimed descent both from Western and Oriental Emperors being through
is father a descendant of Louis II of Italie and therefore of Charles
the Great (Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus) and as well tentatively a
maternal nephew of Eastern Emperor Constantinus (basileus Konstantinos
VII).
Jean Bunot
>
> Peter Stewart
jean bunot
In his most recent book (La noblesse du midi carolingien), Christian
Settipani proposes a different onomastic origine for the name Boson in
the family of the counts of Périgord and La Marche. It goes like this
:
I
Audebert, vicomte de Limoges (+ 904/14)
m. (secondly) c. 900, Deda (widow 920, then abbesse de Tulles et de La
Règle 930/50, +950). Deda was sister of a Boson and daughter of a
Robert married to the sister of Dida, vicomtesse de Béziers (881), and
of Boson, évêque d'Agde (885). Those in turn could be descendants of
the earlier Boson from Arles/Bourgogne.
II
Ne... of Limoges
m. Sulpicius, comte en Limousin, abbé laïque de Charroux
III
Boson I, comte de La Marche et marquis (958)
m. Emma de Périgord
Meilleures et cordiales salutations
Jean Bunot
jean bunot
In his most recent book (La noblesse du midi carolingien), Christian
Peter Stewart
Hardly - have you forgotten Jean-Piere Poly's theory that no less than
Rotbald l'Ancien, who was count of Arles from 901 and ancestor of the
later counts of Avignon & Provence, came from a local family of the
second rank?
In any case I did not suggest that a daughter but only perhaps a
relative of one of these men in the Vienne cartulary might have been the
mother of Charles Constantin. I didn't rule out the possibility that
Anna was his mother, but this creates another set of difficulties that I
think are greater & that haven't been discussed in this thread - if you
wish to be the proponent here for the Anna speculation, maybe you could
address these.
> Constancia instead of Constantina
> can not be a problem. Your are not talking about classic latin of
> Cicero. We are in medieval southern France were latin was contaminated
> by various forms of the Occitant languages. This is why you have
> Joufré for Gauzfredus-Geoffroy, Azalaïs/Azalmoïs for Adelais-Adélaïde,
> Guillem for Wilhelmus-Guillaume, Beltran/Bertran for
> Bertrandus-Bertrand and Uc for Hugo-Hugues. As a matter of fact,
> comparatively Constancia is pretty close to the classic latin
> original.
Constancia instead of Constantina can indeed be a problem, due to the
consistent preference of the former version wherever the name appears in
later generations supposed - by nothing more than the name - to be
linked to Carolus Constantinus. Since I have acknowledged that
Constancius/Constancia COULD be versions of Constantinus/Constantina,
what happened to other names is not directly relevant except in that an
arbitrary and permanent switch of both gender and form would be most
unlikely in any of the other names you mention. Perhaps it would be
interesting for this point to be addressed rather than bypassed.
>
>>the name for some reason never crossed back over the gender divide, in
>>spite of her own son's choice of an exotic Greek name for his heir
>>Philippe when the purportedly ancestral Constantine might have served
>>his needs at least as well.
>
>
>
> No. It is ratter believe that the name Philippe arose trough the
> influence of his mother Anne de Kiev because of her
> oriental/"orthodoxe" byzantine-influenced background.
Yes, but the boy had two parents and a dynastic importance only in the
father's family - which, according to the conjecture I am discussing,
thought itself to be descended from a Constantine but not from a
Philippe. How exactly would the former name be any less a reminder of
Anna of Kiev's orthodox, byzantine-influenced background than the latter?
>>Ulysse Chevalier's edition of Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
>>Saint-Andr -le-Bas...suivi d'un appendice de chartes in dites sur le
>>
>>dioc se de Vienne (IXe-XIIe si cles) (Lyons, 1869) contains several
>>
>>different men of this name, including a few contemporaries who could not
>>
>>possibly have been descendants of the Macedonian dynasty. If he was not
>>the son of the Greek princess Anna, Charles Constantin's mother (and or
>>Queen Constance's paternal grandmother for that matter) might have been
>>related to one or more of them.
>>
>>Charles Constantin himself was married to a woman named Teutberga, who
>>occurs with him and two sons in a charter of ca 960. These boys were his
>>
>>only recorded offspring, named Richard and Hugobert. They both disappear
>>
>>from the record within a decade or so, and we don't know that either of
>>them reached adulthood or left descendants.
>
>
> Everybody in this forum already knows that 10th century charts and
> cartularies frequently all together omitted or ignored woman who were
> not heiresses and especially unmarried young girls or junior members.
I'm not sure what meaning is attached to this comment. My point is only
that we don't have evidence for other descendants of Charles Constantin
- that is why I wrote "These boys were his only recorded offspring" and
did not add that he definitely had or could have had no daughters.
Everybody in this forum can be expected to read just what is written,
nothing more, and nothing else.
>
>>Attempts have been made to connect the house of Savoy to Richard, but
>>this is merely wishful guesswork.
>>
>>The popularity of the supposed Byzantine ancestry of Charles Constantin
>>through his mother derives mainly from an article about him by Charles
>>Previt -Orton in English Historical Review 29 (1914), and more lately
>>
>>from the theories of Christian Settipani which you have noted.
>
>
>
> Apart recently from Settipani, most if not all specialists of Provence
> have INDEPENDENTLY hypothetize a direct link between Charles
> Constantin and Constance (either sister or daughter) : J. Berge "Les
> erreurs de l'histoire. Origines rectifiées des maisons féodales"
> (1952); M. Chaume "Le sentiment national bourguignon de Gondebaud à
> Charles le Téméraire" (1922); J.-P. Poli "La Provence et la société
> féodale dans le Midi" (1976); S. de Vajay "Comtesses occitanes dans
> la Marche d'Espagne au Xe et XIe siècles" (1980).
I'm not sure about "INDEPENDENTLY" - before Charles Previte-Orton's
article the chief authority on this matter was Rene Pourpardin, who did
NOT share the "conclusion" (really this should only be called "opinion")
of Berge, Chaume, Poly and Vajay. My point was that Previte-Orton and
Settipani have POPULARISED the theory with genealogists, not that it is
exclusive to them.
>
> It can not be without a logical explanation, that the son of a
> (destituted and blinded) Western Roman Emperor (and king of
> Provence-Longobardie as well) was name Carolus Constantinus in a time
> were onomastic was rather strict in ruling classes. He evidently
> claimed descent both from Western and Oriental Emperors being through
> is father a descendant of Louis II of Italie and therefore of Charles
> the Great (Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus) and as well tentatively a
> maternal nephew of Eastern Emperor Constantinus (basileus Konstantinos
> VII).
Many events have an illogical explanation rather than a logical one, not
least in the medieval world.
We do NOT know that Charles Constantin was actually NAMED so - Flodoard
and then Richer called him this, both of them writing far away in
Rheims. One possibility is that the byname was meant to emphasis his
connection with Provence (Avignon was sometimes called "Constantina
urbs"). This is not very convincing, but nor is the bland assumption
without proof that he had been given both names by his parents - or took
the second himself - for prestige due to an uncle whom few in his part
of the world had even heard of.
Peter Stewart