CP Corrections John Bermingham earl of Louth (d 1329)

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ADRIANC...@aol.com

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Sep 18, 2005, 9:41:02 AM9/18/05
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CP Corrections John Bermingham earl of Louth (d 1329)

CP originally gave the wife of John Bermingham's (earl of Louth, d 1329)
wife as Aveline, da. of Richard (DE BURGH), 2nd EARL OF ULSTER. The Ulster page
was corrected by Vol XIV where his wife is said to be possibly daughter of
Arnoul III, Count of Guisnes [the ref to this correction is an article in the
Geneal Mag., vol 20, 1982 pp 335-40, which I have not seen] Below is the
entry from Chris Philips page extends this correction to the Earl of Louth.

I have come across and extract from Knox’s “History of County Mayo in which
it is stated that by 1325, a Fromund Le Brun and Nesta his wife, had
transferred the manor of Carra to John, de Bermingham, and as such another
possibility is that John Bermingham had married a daughter of Fromund and Nesta (or
perhaps dau of Nesta by her first marriage to Simon de Flatisbury - see below)

This article then goes on to mention lands called Levally ne Tavese. This
is perhaps the same as in "Sir John DE BURGH, of _Lanvaley_" in CP's original
claim, but what the significance of this is, I have not worked out

By the way an unreliable source (O'Harts Irish Pedigrees Vol. 2 page 74)
mentions a Fromond le Brun as Chancellor of Ireland in 1230, 1259, and 1272,
perhaps connected to the above.


Corrections to CP on Chris Philips web pages
LOUTH
Volume 8, page 170:
He [John de Bermingham, earl of Louth (d. 1329)] m. between June 1308 and
Oct. 1320, Aveline, da. of Richard (DE BURGH), 2nd EARL OF ULSTER [I.], by
Margaret, da. of Sir John DE BURGH, of Lanvaley.

In a correction of volume 12, part 2, p.176 (Ulster) in volume 14, the
identification of Margaret as a daughter of Sir John de Burgh is removed, and
instead she is said to be "possibly daughter of Arnoul III, Count of Guisnes, by
Alice, daughter of Enguerrand III, Lord of Coucy".


{From Knox’s “History of County Mayo”}
Carra Barony
...
When the O’Conors, who seem to have held all Carra as principal chiefs, were
ejected by Richard de Burgo in 1236, Carra was let out in two great fees,
called Carra and Clancowane.
Adam Staunton, a great baron of Kildare, or his son Philip, got Carra,
wherein he built Castlecarra immediately, one of the earliest Norman castles in
Mayo, but the present building in ruins may be of later date. The wall across
the isthmus may well be original. He founded also a small town, whereof only
the name survives in Burriscarra.
Adam was succeeded by his son Philip, and he by his son Adam, who died in
1299. His estates were divided between five daughters. Carra, having been
assigned first to Nesta and another, became the share of Nesta. When her father
died she was married to Simon de Flatisbury, but by 1316 was wife of Fromund
Le Brun. By 1325 Fromund and Nesta had transferred the manor of Carra to
John, [ac: de Bermingham] Earl of Louth. I find no indication of the further
devolution of the estate. ...
[page 114]
In 1306 a family named Savage held some lands. In 1316 Fromund le Brun and
Nesta claimed from William, son of William de Burgo, suit and service in
their court of Carra in respect of his freehold in Sauvage’s castle, and four
vills of land therein. This castle is not identified, but is likely to be
Castle Lucas. The name of Le Sauvage survived in the denomination of the eight
quarters of land called Levally ne Tavese in the composition [ac: of Mayo,
c1589], but in the preliminary inquisition, Levally in Tavase, Halftown of le
Sauvage. This is some evidence that Sir William had got a footing in Carra.
From Sir William’s brother Philip, and Philip’s son John, came the
MacPhilpins who are found at Ballabourke and near Castlebar. ...

Adrian

ADRIANC...@aol.com

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Sep 19, 2005, 6:47:44 PM9/19/05
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In a message dated 19/09/2005 21:13:32 GMT Standard Time, WJho...@aol.com
writes:

In a message dated 9/18/05 6:41:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANC...@aol.com writes:

<< CP Corrections John Bermingham earl of Louth (d 1329)

CP originally gave the wife of John Bermingham's (earl of Louth, d 1329) as

Aveline, da. of Richard (DE BURGH), 2nd EARL OF ULSTER. The Ulster page was
corrected by Vol XIV where his wife is said to be possibly daughter of
Arnoul
III, Count of Guisnes [the ref to this correction is an article in the Ge
neal
Mag., vol 20, 1982 pp 335-40, which I have not seen] Below is the entry
from
Chris Philips page extends this correction to the Earl of Louth.

<snip>

Corrections to CP on Chris Philips web pages
LOUTH Volume 8, page 170:
He [John de Bermingham, earl of Louth (d. 1329)] m. between June 1308 and
Oct. 1320, Aveline, da. of Richard (DE BURGH), 2nd EARL OF ULSTER [I.], by
Margaret, da. of Sir John DE BURGH, of Lanvaley.

In a correction of volume 12, part 2, p.176 (Ulster) in volume 14, the
identification of Margaret as a daughter of Sir John de Burgh is removed,
and
instead she is said to be "possibly daughter of Arnoul III, Count of
Guisnes, by
Alice, daughter of Enguerrand III, Lord of Coucy". >>

I'm confused by this. It appears to me that you are saying
1) CP originally gave the wife of John, Earl of Louth as Aveline dau of
Richard, 2nd Earl of Ulster and instead his wife should be dau of Arnoul ,
Count of
Guisnes.
2) Louth volume 8 states he married Aveline dau of Richard, 2nd Earl of
Ulster
3) CP volume 12, says that MARGARET was the dau of Arnoul, Count of Guisnes.

In your first paragraph did you mean to say that it was Aveline's MOTHER
whose parentage was incorrect?
Thanks
Will Johnson


Sorry, yes that is what I meant to say.

Adrian

WJho...@aol.com

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Sep 19, 2005, 4:12:56 PM9/19/05
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