Margaret Stanley m. Torbock or Troutbeck
bryon niemann
d. 1509 married Margerey Stanley d/o Thomas, 1st Baron Stanley
(1405-1459). The visitation of Cheshire, 1580 gives the husband of
Margaret Stanley as Sir William Troutbeck. Are Torbock and Troutbeck
variations of the same name ? Were there two dau. of Thomas, one
Margaret the other Margerey? If neither is the case, does anyone know
the identity of the wife of Sir William Torbock?
Thanks to any and all.
Leo van de Pas
Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and Joan Goushill
are the parents of :
Margaret Stanley
married
Sir William Troutbeck, of Dunham
son of Sir John Troutbeck and Marjery Hulse
he was born 13 July 1436
and died in 1464
they were the parents of (there should be more and the order
is probably wrong)
1. Adam Troutbeck
married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
(they had children)
2.Joan Troutbeck
married Sir William Griffith, of Penrhyn, Chamberlain of North Wales, son of
William Fychan, of Penrhyn, and Alice Dalton
(they had children)
3.Robert Troutbeck
he may and he may not have married but fathered at least one daughter
(Mary).
Sources
Burke's Presidential families of the United States of America
London, 1975
The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales
Edinburgh, 1977
by Gerald Paget
The second source indicates that Margaret Stanley and William Troutbeck are
ancestors of Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales.
Hope this helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Sutliff
bryon niemann wrote:
> According to a pedigree of the Lords of Torbock, Sir William Torbock
> d. 1509 married Margerey Stanley d/o Thomas, 1st Baron Stanley
> (1405-1459). The visitation of Cheshire, 1580 gives the husband of
> Margaret Stanley as Sir William Troutbeck. Are Torbock and Troutbeck
> variations of the same name ? Were there two dau. of Thomas, one
> Margaret the other Margerey? If neither is the case, does anyone know
> the identity of the wife of Sir William Torbock?
> Thanks to any and all.
There were a number of Stanley lines of this period and unfortunately your
post combines a number of them. The Margaret Stanley who was wife of Sir
William Troutbeck was daughter of Sir Thomas Stanley (1405-1459) of
Lathom and Knowsley, Lancashire and Joan de Goushill of Hoveringham,
Notts. She was sister of the first Earl of Derby. This Margaret married
secondly Sir John Boteler and thirdly Henry Grey.
The Margery Stanley who married William Torbock was of Hooton, Cheshire,
being the daughter of John Stanley (1436-1504) and Elizabeth Weever of
Weever, Cheshire. John Stanley was brother of the above Margaret, being a
son of Thomas and Joan de Goushill.
I think both of these lines are covered in _Plantagenet Ancestry of
Seventeenth-Century Colonists_ by David Faris (Second Edition). If you are
researching Torbock, Stanley and related families, there are several of us
on this list who descend from Oliver Manwaring of New London, CT to whom
the Torbocks, Stanleys, Savages, Weevers, etc. were ancestors.
Hope this helps.
Henry Sutliff
Sutliff
show that Margaret Stanley, widow of Sir William Troutbeck and Sir John Boteler,
married thirdly Henry Grey, Lord Grey of Codnor.
CP V:131 identifies Henry Grey, 7th Lord Grey of Codnor as married secondly
Margaret ______. He died 1496 (d.s.p. legit.) His will names only three
illegitimate sons. Sources, including Faris, mention that Margaret Stanley had a
daughter Anne by Grey. However CP:132 note "b" mentions Lord Grey's will (PCC 34
Vox) wherein "Prayers were to be said for the soul of Margaret that was his
wife, for the souls of his father and mother and of Katherine "which was my wife
which was the Duchess of Norfolk's daughter."
How likely would Henry Grey omit his legitimate daughter Anne from his "prayer"
list when he clearly referenced his three illegitimate sons in his will? Unless
the identity of Grey's second wife has been revised by CP XIV, is it possible
that the third husband of Margaret Stanley was another Grey and not the 7th Lord
Grey of Codnor?
Henry Sutliff
Kay Allen AG
Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> What I have is :
> Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and Joan Goushill
> are the parents of :
> Margaret Stanley
> married
> Sir William Troutbeck, of Dunham
> son of Sir John Troutbeck and Marjery Hulse
> he was born 13 July 1436
> and died in 1464
> they were the parents of (there should be more and the order
> is probably wrong)
The eldest son was Sir William who dsp.
George Morris shows another son Thomas, no son Robert, a dtr. Jane who =
Sir Wm. Butler, and a dtr. Elizabeth who = Sir Alex Houghton.
> 1. Adam Troutbeck
> married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
> daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
> (they had children)
According to _The Troutbeck Family_ by John Brownbill, the mother of
Margaret Troutbeck who married Talbot was not Margaret Butler but Joan
Molyneux the widow of Hamon Mascy of Denwall. It is possible, but I am
not entirely convinced by his arguments.
>
> 2.Joan Troutbeck
This Joan is identified as being identical with the sister of Adam who
married Sir William Butler. She had two marriages.
> married Sir William Griffith, of Penrhyn, Chamberlain of North Wales, son of
> William Fychan, of Penrhyn, and Alice Dalton
> (they had children)
>
> 3.Robert Troutbeck
What is the supporting evidence for the existence of this Robert ?
Kay allen AG
Leo van de Pas
Dear Kay,
Here you have lost me, who is Margaret Troutbeck and where does she fit in?
I made no mention of a Margaret Troutbeck..
who married Talbot was not Margaret Butler but Joan
> Molyneux the widow of Hamon Mascy of Denwall. It is possible, but I am
> not entirely convinced by his arguments.
> >
> > 2.Joan Troutbeck
>
> This Joan is identified as being identical with the sister of Adam who
> married Sir William Butler. She had two marriages.
Who were her husbands and in which order did she marry them?
> > married Sir William Griffith, of Penrhyn, Chamberlain of North Wales,
son of
> > William Fychan, of Penrhyn, and Alice Dalton
> > (they had children)
> >
> > 3.Robert Troutbeck
>
> What is the supporting evidence for the existence of this Robert ?
Dear Kay, Gerald Paget is the source.
He makes Sir William Troutbeck appear as numbers P49685, Q117997 and Q120196
Under Q117997 he is the father of Robert Troutbeck who appears as P58999.
This Robert is the father of Mary Troutbeck (O29500) and she was married to
Sir Edmund Denny.
Many thanks for your comments.
Kay Allen AG
Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kay Allen AG <all...@pacbell.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 1990 9:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Margaret Stanley m. Torbock or Troutbeck
>
> > Comment interspersed.
> >
> > Leo van de Pas wrote:
> > >
> > > What I have is :
Snipped.
> > George Morris shows another son Thomas, no son Robert, a dtr. Jane who =
> > Sir Wm. Butler, and a dtr. Elizabeth who = Sir Alex Houghton.
> > > 1. Adam Troutbeck
> > > married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
> > > daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
> > > (they had children)
> >
> > According to _The Troutbeck Family_ by John Brownbill, the mother of
> > Margaret Troutbeck
>
> Dear Kay,
> Here you have lost me, who is Margaret Troutbeck and where does she fit in?
> I made no mention of a Margaret Troutbeck..
She was the child of Adam. Sorry, I thought when I mentioned Margaret
Butler her putative mother you'd make the connection.
>
> who married Talbot was not Margaret Butler but Joan
> > Molyneux the widow of Hamon Mascy of Denwall. It is possible, but I am
> > not entirely convinced by his arguments.
> > >
> > > 2.Joan Troutbeck
> >
> > This Joan is identified as being identical with the sister of Adam who
> > married Sir William Butler. She had two marriages.
>
> Who were her husbands and in which order did she marry them?
>
> > > married Sir William Griffith, of Penrhyn, Chamberlain of North Wales,
> son of
> > > William Fychan, of Penrhyn, and Alice Dalton
> > > (they had children)
She married Butler and then Griffith as given above.
> > >
> > > 3.Robert Troutbeck
> >
> > What is the supporting evidence for the existence of this Robert ?
>
> Dear Kay, Gerald Paget is the source.
Does he give any supporting evidence?
> He makes Sir William Troutbeck appear as numbers P49685, Q117997 and Q120196
>
> Under Q117997 he is the father of Robert Troutbeck who appears as P58999.
> This Robert is the father of Mary Troutbeck (O29500) and she was married to
> Sir Edmund Denny.
>
> Many thanks for your comments.
Your welcome. Hope I cleared up the confusion.
K
Leo van de Pas
> Snipped.
>
> > > > 1. Adam Troutbeck
> > > > married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
> > > > daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
> > > > (they had children)
> > >
> > > According to _The Troutbeck Family_ by John Brownbill, the mother of
> > > Margaret Troutbeck
> > > Molyneux the widow of Hamon Mascy of Denwall. It is possible, but I am
> > > not entirely convinced by his arguments.
> > > >
I have Sir John Talbot married twice, first to Margaret Troutbeck
(born circa 1492) and they had at least two children; then he married
Elizabeth Wrottesley and had at least one more child.
I have Weis the fifth edition and in lines 7,20,199 the Troutbeck family
appears and everywhere Margaret Troutbeck's mother was
Margaret Butler.
Also (sorry to mention it) Sir John Talbot (N12421) and Margaret Troutbeck
(N12422) are mentioned by Paget and again Margaret's mother is still
Margaret Butler.
Some of the details I have come from Weis, Burke's Peerage (1938 page 2237)
and an article by Patrick Montague-Smith about the ancestors of Captain Mark
Phillips.
Where does Joan Molyneux come from? Was she a third wife? A mistress?
Best wishes
Leo
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Kay Allen AG <all...@pacbell.net>
To: Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au>
Cc: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 1990 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Margaret Stanley m. Torbock or Troutbeck
<snipped>
> > 3.Robert Troutbeck
> > >
> > > What is the supporting evidence for the existence of this Robert ?
> >
> > Dear Kay, Gerald Paget is the source.
>
> Does he give any supporting evidence?
Dear Kay,
You haven't seen the two volumes of Gerald Paget? They are as wonderfull as
they are infuriating. Nowhere does he give sources
or footnotes (except for some of the illegitimates). I believe he is very
much Burke orientated and that may not be a good thing for that period.
I will come back about that Margaret Troutbeck.
Leo
Kay Allen AG
>
I know that Margaret Butler is the conventenal wisdom. But if
Weis/Sheppard, Faris, Burke, Paget, et al. were as terminally thorough
in searching the literature as I am :-) they would have been aware
that an alternative maternity had been presented. I didn't say that I
agreed with him, I just said that he believed that the mother was Adam's
second wife, Joan Molyneux, widow of Haman Massy of Denham.
>
> Where does Joan Molyneux come from? Was she a third wife? A mistress?
She was Adam Troutbeck's second wife. Brownbill cites Chester Plea Roll
r. 192, m. 2 as his supporting documentation for this marriage which
took place before or about 1491. She is supposed to be dtr. & heir of a
Robert Molyneux. There is according to The Genealogist
NS7(1890/1):245-6, a marriage contract by this Joan, as a widow, dated
13 October 1490, for the marriage of her dtr. Jane Massy.
The whole issue hinges on the age of Margaret who married Talbot. Her
uncle's IPM in 1510 calls her 16 and more. The question is how much
more? It could be several years more. Since she was already married, she
was considered of age and therefore the jury didn't have to be as
scrupulously accurate in stating her age as if there were a wardship and
money for the king at stake.
Good luck,
K
PS This is written under copyright!
> Best wishes
> Leo
Sutliff
Kay Allen AG wrote:
> Comment interspersed.
>
> Leo van de Pas wrote:
> >
> > What I have is :
> > Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and Joan Goushill
> > are the parents of :
> > Margaret Stanley
> > married
> > Sir William Troutbeck, of Dunham
> > son of Sir John Troutbeck and Marjery Hulse
> > he was born 13 July 1436
> > and died in 1464
> > they were the parents of (there should be more and the order
> > is probably wrong)
>
> The eldest son was Sir William who dsp.
> George Morris shows another son Thomas, no son Robert, a dtr. Jane who =
> Sir Wm. Butler, and a dtr. Elizabeth who = Sir Alex Houghton.
> > 1. Adam Troutbeck
> > married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
> > daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
> > (they had children)
>
> According to _The Troutbeck Family_ by John Brownbill, the mother of
> Margaret Troutbeck who married Talbot was not Margaret Butler but Joan
> Molyneux the widow of Hamon Mascy of Denwall. It is possible, but I am
> not entirely convinced by his arguments.
<snip>
Paul Reed has a very long article on the Mascy family which is to be published in
_The Genealogist_ vol. 10, no. 3. Perhaps more of this identity may be addressed
there.
Henry Sutliff
Barrie J Wright
I have two other marriages for Margaret Stanley [d abt 1481]
the dau as below.
m2. John Boteler, Kt., Baron Warrington d 28 Feb 1462/3.
John's son Thomas [1461-1522] m. Margaret Delves of Doddington
Dau Margery
QU. Is Thomas related to a Thomas Boteler, father of a
Dorothy Boteler/Butler
who married John Booth [abt 1449- aft 1527]?
m3. Henry Grey [no details] Henry Sutcliff explains why he's unidentified.
QU. Is it best to retain the Boteler name to the 1500s, or longer?
Can you confirm or deny? Thanks for the thread.
Barrie J. Wright
in Adelaide, South Australia
bjwr...@senet.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2000 2:50
Subject: Re: Margaret Stanley m. Torbock or Troutbeck
> What I have is :
> Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and Joan Goushill
> are the parents of :
> Margaret Stanley
> married
> Sir William Troutbeck, of Dunham
> son of Sir John Troutbeck and Marjery Hulse
> he was born 13 July 1436
> and died in 1464
> they were the parents of (there should be more and the order
> is probably wrong)
> 1. Adam Troutbeck
> married Margaret Butler, of Bewsey
> daughter of Sir John Butler, of Bewsey, and Margaret Gerard
> (they had children)
>
> 2.Joan Troutbeck
> married Sir William Griffith, of Penrhyn, Chamberlain of North Wales, son
of
> William Fychan, of Penrhyn, and Alice Dalton
> (they had children)
>
> 3.Robert Troutbeck
> he may and he may not have married but fathered at least one daughter
> (Mary).
>
> Sources
>
> Burke's Presidential families of the United States of America
> London, 1975
>
> The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales
> Edinburgh, 1977
> by Gerald Paget
>
> The second source indicates that Margaret Stanley and William Troutbeck
are
> ancestors of Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales.
> Hope this helps?
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bryon niemann <bry...@webtv.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 11:59 AM
> Subject: Margaret Stanley m. Torbock or Troutbeck
>
>
> > According to a pedigree of the Lords of Torbock, Sir William Torbock
> > d. 1509 married Margerey Stanley d/o Thomas, 1st Baron Stanley
> > (1405-1459). The visitation of Cheshire, 1580 gives the husband of
> > Margaret Stanley as Sir William Troutbeck. Are Torbock and Troutbeck
> > variations of the same name ? Were there two dau. of Thomas, one
> > Margaret the other Margerey? If neither is the case, does anyone know
> > the identity of the wife of Sir William Torbock?
> > Thanks to any and all.
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________
Lorraine M Money
> m2. John Boteler, Kt., Baron Warrington d 28 Feb 1462/3.
> John's son Thomas [1461-1522] m. Margaret Delves of Doddington
> Dau Margery
Etheldena BABINGTON in the 15th century. According to our records they
had two daughters Jane DELVES who married Sir James BLOUNT, the Provost
Marshal, and Elena (Helen) DELVES who married Sir Robert SHEFFIELD, they
had a son, Sir Robert Sheffield, of Butterwick, who died 15 November
1531, he married Jane STANLEY, daughter of George Stanley, Lord Stanley,
and Joan Le Strange, 9th Baroness Strange of Knockyn. My thanks to Leo
van de Pas for putting me correct on this.
May I take this opportunity to thank those of you who have contacted me
about my health, the arm and neck, and everything else, are going to
take longer than expected to get back to some sort of normality, but we
carry on - at least I'm able to type one handed, so continue to bear
with me if I am a long time in replying to your messages.
Many thanks.
Kind regards.
Lorraine
Kay Allen AG
Lorraine M Money wrote:
>
> Dear Barrie and list,
> > m2. John Boteler, Kt., Baron Warrington d 28 Feb 1462/3.
> > John's son Thomas [1461-1522] m. Margaret Delves of Doddington
> > Dau Margery
> Is Margaret DELVES in anyway connected to Sir John DELVES who married
> Etheldena BABINGTON in the 15th century.
She is his sister. They are the children of John and Elen Egerton of
Wrinehill.
Kay Allen AG