Thomas DACRE 1387-1457, (DOUGLAS/MAXWELL)
GLAUC...@aol.com
I am especially interested in his mother, Joan Douglas, and his paternal
grandmother, Elizabeth Maxwell. How do they connect to their respective
Douglas and Maxwell families?
Regards,
Lloyd King
Dallas, Texas, USA
ED MANN
>
> Does anyone have the ancestry of Thomas Dacre, b Oct 1387 and died Jan 1457?
>
> I am especially interested in his mother, Joan Douglas, and his paternal
> grandmother, Elizabeth Maxwell. How do they connect to their respective
> Douglas and Maxwell families?
What I've got:
Ancestors of Thomas de Dacre
Generation No. 1
1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
Generation No. 2
2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the son of
4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
Generation No. 3
4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir Ranulph de
Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was the son
of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
Generation No. 4
8. Sir Ranulph de Dacre, died 1339. He married 9. Margaret de Multon.
9. Margaret de Multon She was the daughter of 18. Sir Thomas de
Multon and 19. Margaret.
10. Alexander Maxwell
12. Sir William Douglas, died 1384. He was the son of 24. Sir
Archibald Douglas. He married 13. Margaret de Mar.
13. Margaret de Mar, died Bef. 1418. She was the daughter of 26. Sir
Donald de Mar and 27. Isabel Stewart.
Generation No. 5
18. Sir Thomas de Multon, died 1313. He was the son of 36. Thomas de
Multon and 37. Isabel. He married 19. Margaret.
19. Margaret
24. Sir Archibald Douglas, died 1333. He was the son of 48. Sir
William Douglas and 49. Elizabeth Steward.
26. Sir Donald de Mar, died 12 Aug 1332 in (in battle @) Dupplin Moor,
Scotland. He was the son of 52. Sir Gratney de Mar and 53. Christian de
Bruce. He married 27. Isabel Stewart.
27. Isabel Stewart
Generation No. 6
36. Thomas de Multon, died 1295. He was the son of 72. Thomas de
Multon. He married 37. Isabel.
37. Isabel
48. Sir William Douglas, born Abt. 1235; died 1298 in (Tower of)
London, England. He married 49. Elizabeth Steward.
49. Elizabeth Steward, born Aft. 1244; died Bef. 1289.
52. Sir Gratney de Mar, died Bef. 1305. He was the son of 104. Sir
Donald de Mar and 105. Helen verch Llewellyn. He married 53. Christian
de Bruce Abt. 1292.
53. Christian de Bruce, died Abt. 1357. She was the daughter of 106.
Sir Robert Bruce and 107. Margery de Carrick.
Generation No. 7
72. Thomas de Multon, died 1293. He was the son of Thomas de Multon
and Maud de Vaux.
104. Sir Donald de Mar, died Aft. 25 Jul 1297. He was the son of Sir
William de Mar and Elizabeth Comyn. He married 105. Helen verch
Llewellyn Aft. 1266.
105. Helen verch Llewellyn She was the daughter of Prince Llewelyn ap
Iorwerth and Tangwystl verch Llywarch.
106. Sir Robert Bruce, born Jul 1243 in Writtle; died Mar 1303/04. He
was the son of Sir Robert de Bruce and Isabel de Clare. He married 107.
Margery de Carrick 1273 in Turnberry.
107. Margery de Carrick, died Bef. 27 Oct 1292. She was the daughter
of Sir Neil de Carrick and Margaret.
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
Leslie Mahler
1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
>Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
>William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
>Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
>Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
>Generation No. 2
2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the
son of
>4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
>Generation No. 3
4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir
Ranulph de
>Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was
the son
>of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
According to the Complete Peerage, the Maxwell and Douglas connections
are entirely conjectural.
As I remember, the chronology would imply that James Douglas was age 30
when he became a
grandfather.
Leslie
William Addams Reitwiesner
>GLAUC...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have the ancestry of Thomas Dacre, b Oct 1387 and died Jan 1457?
>>
>> I am especially interested in his mother, Joan Douglas, and his paternal
>> grandmother, Elizabeth Maxwell. How do they connect to their respective
>> Douglas and Maxwell families?
>
>What I've got:
Several major problems here.
>Ancestors of Thomas de Dacre
>
>
>Generation No. 1
>
> 1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
>Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
>William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
>Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
>Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
>
>
>Generation No. 2
>
> 2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the son of
>4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
> 3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
>
>
>Generation No. 3
>
> 4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir Ranulph de
>Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
> 5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
> 6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was the son
>of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
>
>
>Generation No. 4
>
> 8. Sir Ranulph de Dacre, died 1339. He married 9. Margaret de Multon.
> 9. Margaret de Multon She was the daughter of 18. Sir Thomas de
>Multon and 19. Margaret.
> 10. Alexander Maxwell
> 12. Sir William Douglas, died 1384. He was the son of 24. Sir
>Archibald Douglas. He married 13. Margaret de Mar.
> 13. Margaret de Mar, died Bef. 1418. She was the daughter of 26. Sir
>Donald de Mar and 27. Isabel Stewart.
Number 12 (whom you call "Sir William Douglas") was 1st Earl of Douglas.
See Cokayne IV:430. He married Margaret by 13 November 1357, when she is
mentioned in a charter. This means that their son, number 6, whom you call
"Sir James Douglas" and who was actually the 2nd Earl of Douglas, could not
have been born before 1358. His alleged grandson, number 1, Sir Thomas de
Dacre, who is now considered to be "6th Lord Dacre of Gilsland", was born
27 October 1387. This would mean that the 2nd Earl of Douglas was a
grandfather at age 29 (or younger).
In point of fact, even the name of number 3 is unknown. She was given the
name "Joan Douglas" in a 17th-century memorandum, and her connection to the
Earl of Douglas was invented later and is based on nothing more substantive
than a guess.
As for number 5, she was Elizabeth (not Ela), widow of Sir William de
Douglas, sometime Earl of Atholl. Elizabeth was given the maiden name
"Maxwell" in the same 17th-century memorandum, but there is no evidence to
support it, let alone any parentage for her.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Suzanne Doig
<lma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Generation No. 1
> 1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
>>Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
>>William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
>>Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
>>Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
>
>>Generation No. 2
> 2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the
>son of
>>4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
> 3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
>
>
>>Generation No. 3
> 6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was
>the son
>>of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
>
>According to the Complete Peerage, the Maxwell and Douglas connections
>are entirely conjectural.
>As I remember, the chronology would imply that James Douglas was age 30
>when he became a
>grandfather.
In addition, if Thomas Dacre was the (legitimate) grandson of James
Douglas, born before James's death, then surely he would have
inherited the earldom of Mar on James's death. The fact that the title
went to James's sister Isabel, and became extinct when she dsp,
strongly suggests that either Joan was illegitimate or not a daughter
of James at all.
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4038/index.html
GLAUC...@aol.com
writes:
> EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM (ED MANN) wrote:
>
> >GLAUC...@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone have the ancestry of Thomas Dacre, b Oct 1387 and died Jan
> 1457?
> >>
> >> I am especially interested in his mother, Joan Douglas, and his paternal
> >> grandmother, Elizabeth Maxwell. How do they connect to their respective
> >> Douglas and Maxwell families?
> >
> >What I've got:
>
> Several major problems here.
>
>
> >Ancestors of Thomas de Dacre
> >
> >
> >Generation No. 1
> >
> > 1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
> >Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
> >William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
> >Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
> >Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
> >
> >
> >Generation No. 2
> >
> > 2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the son
of
> >4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
> > 3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
> >
> >
> >Generation No. 3
> >
> > 4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir Ranulph de
> >Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
> > 5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
> > 6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was the son
> >of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
> >
> >
Thanks for making these folks into ex-ancestors before I could become
attached to them. It's much easier that way.
U...@aol.com
EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM writes:
<< Generation No. 3
4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir Ranulph de
Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was the son
of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
>>
Hi Ed: I have an Isabella Stewart married to James and as mother of Joan
Douglas. I show her as daughter of Robert II King of the Scots and Elizabeth
Mure. Of course, lacking a source, I do not put a lot of credence in what I
have, but I did get it from somewhere. Any clarification appreciated.
Always optimistic--Dave
ED MANN
It's been pointed out to me that Joan's ancestry is unknown, the only
reference being a noncontemporaneous memo.
Robert II and Elizabeth Mure did have an Isabella who m. James Douglas,
but Joan was supposedly illegitimate.
Alison Weir lists no legitimate daughter Joan.