Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar
John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 2 August, 2005
Dear James, Leo, Ian, Doug, Diane, Doug, Marilyn, Will, Alex,
et al.,
After a prolonged absence from the lst (due to business, holiday
and other travel) I hope this post finds everyone hale and
hearty.
I read today the recent posts re: the Earls of Dunbar, which
bring up several issues, esp. as relating to reliance upon
secondary sources in general, and concerning the "accepted"
pedigree(s) of the Earls of Dunbar in particular. As noted by
others in those messages and elsewhere, one can feel reasonably
confident in relying on Scots Peerage (SP) and Complete Peerage
(CP) in most cases, but we cannot completely rely on any one
source or combination of sources without question. The many
threads on SGM, and the assembled corrections and additions to CP
made available by Chris Phillips on his website, testify to this.
There are a number of problems with the Dunbar pedigree in SP,
and as noted, the conflict with the account in CP highlights the need
for care and correction. One particular problem (or group of
problems) is the account in CP for the "8th Earl", Patrick [1].
A. The account states that Patrick was "b. about 1285", and
makes statements later in the same and next sentences
based on this; unfortunately, no documentation is cited for
this, which appears to be surmised from the statement
under the previous account for Patrick's father that
"He m., in or shortly before 1282, Marjory, da. of
Alexander (COMYN), Earl of Buchan...." [2]. The date given
in that account also unfortunately is provided with no
documentation, or justificiation.
Besides the siege of Caerlaverock in 1300, Patrick was
present with his father at the Battle of Falkirk in the
English (or Anglo-Scottish) army, 22 July 1298. He is
recorded as Sir Patrick de Dunbar at that time [3]: if the
account in CP is to be taken literally, we are then to
believe he was aged "about 13", and a knight at that, when
in arms at Falkirk. Perhaps someone else among the list
would care to comment on the possibility (or plausibility)
of a young noble, aged say 12 to 14 and not a member of the
royal family, being knighted in 1298 or before. It seems
more likely that he was aged 18, or more, at the time of
Falkirk, and therefore born say 1280 or before.
This is an important issue, in that given the death of
Earl Patrick of Dunbar following his resignation
of the Earldom to his kinsman George Dunbar on 25 July
1368 we are to believe that he was then aged say 88, or
more [if he was in fact born in 1280 or before].
B. The account for this Earl Patrick further states that
"He m., 1stly, in or shortly before 1303, Ermengarde" and
that she was pregnant in 1304; he subsequently married
Agnes Randolph sometime after Sept. 1320. There is no
documentation cited for the 1303 date for the marriage to
Ermengarde: this unfortunately also appears to be a forced
date, between the alleged birthdate for Patrick of "about
1285" and the birthdate of a son Patrick given as 1304 [4].
This matter deserves further study, but I am of the opinion that
there has been a conflation of the careers of two Earls of Dunbar
into this account:
1. Patrick "the 8th Earl", b. say 1270-1280, married to
Ermengarde; and
2. Patrick ["Earl 8.5"], their son, born say 1304 or before,
who married Agnes Randolph, fathered sons Patrick and John
(both d.s.p.), resigned the Earldom to his cousin (1st
cousin once removed) George Dunbar and d. on 11 Nov. 1368.
This would yield the following revised pedigree at this point:
Patrick = Marjory Comyn
"7th Earl" d. 1308 I
_________________I____________
I I
Patrick "8th Earl" Sir Alexander
= Ermengarde de Dunbar
I I
I I
Patrick " 8.5 " Sir Patrick = Isabel
d. 1368 = Agnes Randolph d. aft 19 Sept I Randolph
I 1356 I
_________I__ _________________________I_____________
I I I I I I I
Patrick John George John Agnes <siblings>
dsp dsp E of E of =(1) John Maitland
Dunbar Moray ~ David II of Scots (not md.)
1368-1420 =(2) James Douglas of
Dalkeith
~ Note the above agrees more with the placement given in
CP as to the ancestry of George Dunbar (d. 1420) and his
siblings, vs. the account in SP. I will address this issue
more directly in a separate post; however, this above would
answer 'Yes' to the question, do Patrick Dunbar and Marjory
Comyn have living descendants.
Certain texts may provide further certainty: among those that
hold the most promise in this matter are the dispensations granted
for the marriage of Patrick de Dunbar to Agnes Randolph cited (with
sources being documented) in CP IV:507, note (d). It is possible
that the wording in those dispensations may indicate if the husband
of Agnes Randolph was then Earl, or son of the Earl, in 1320 or
1323/4. Should anyone have access to same, or a documented
reference that can be sought, that would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES:
[1] Following is the account from CP IV:507-8, sub DUNBAR,
verbatim:
" VIII. 1308. 8. PATRICK (DE DUNBAR), EARL OF MARCH, or DUNBAR
[S.], b. about 1285; was with his father in 1300 (when
but 15) at Carlaverock. He was aged 24 in 1308/9, having had livery
of his father's lands 10 Nov. 1308. He, like his father, favoured
the English faction, and after the defeat of Edward II at
Bannockburn, 24 June 1314, received him into his castle of Dunbar and
enabled him to escape to England. After losing this unexampled
opportunity of serving his countrymen, he went over to their side,
and was in the Parl. at Ayr in Apr. 1315, when the succession to the
Crown [S.] was settled; was at the capture of Berwick, Mar. 1318,
then being Sheriff of Lothian; signed the letter, 1320, to the Pope
asserting the independence of Scotland; was at the defeat of Dupplin,
12 Aug. 1332, and of Halidon Hill, 19 July 1333, at which time
the fort of Berwick, of which he was Governor, was surrendered to
Edward III, and he himself for the 2nd time joined the English side,
which he again, in the next year, deserted, and assisted in some
small skirmishes against them, while his gallant Countess maintained
a nineteen weeks' siege, from Jan. 1337/8, of the Castle of Dunbar by
the English, whom she forced to retire therefrom <c>. He was at the
defeat of the Scots in the battle of Durham, 17 Oct. 1346, and was
one of the sureties for the release of David II from captivity in
1357, receiving from him various grants, the town of Dunbar being
erected a free burgh in his favour. On 18 Feb. 1360/1 he is
described in Close Rolls as an enemy and rebel whose lands are
forfeited. He m., 1stly, in or shortly before 1303, Ermengarde. On
26 June 1304 she is mentioned as being pregnant. He m. 2ndly,
shortly after Sep. 1320, Agnes <d>, elder da. of Thomas (RANDOLPH),
1st Earl of Moray [S.], sometime Regent [S.], by Isabel, (probably)
da. of Sir John Stewart, of Bonkill. This lady, usually known as
"Black Agnes", the heroine (as before mentioned) of the siege of
Dunbar, became (17 Oct. 1346) by the death of her br., John, 3rd Earl
of Moray [S.], a coh. of that family, whose estates included the Isle
of Man, the Lordship of Annandale, &c. She was living 24 May 1367.
Earl Patrick in her right had, 1357-8, a grant of the EARLDOM <a> OF
MORAY [S.]. Both his sons being dead, s.p., he resigned his
Earldom of March, or Dunbar, to the Crown, who granted the same, 25
July 1368, to his great-nephew and h. male, George Dunbar and "his
heirs." <c> He d. soon afterwards, 11 Nov. 1368 (having possessed
his Earldom 60 years), aged about 83. "
<NOTES, from CP IV:507>
<c> They were commanded by William (de Montagu), Earl of
Salisbury, &c. &c. [text discontinued: no documentation].\
<d> He had Papal disp., 18 Aug. 1320, to m. Agnes, da. of Ralph
[i.e. Randolph] of the diocese of St. Andrews, related to
him in the 4th degree, and again 16 Jan. 1323/4, to remain m.
to her though related in the 3rd and 4th degree. V.G.
<NOTES, from CP IV:508>
<a> The Earldom of Moray [S.} as conferred on Sir Thomas Randolph
in 1314 was a male fief. It was, however, again conferred
9 Mar. 1371/2 on John de Dunbar, next br. of Earl George (who
apparently was heir of line), both being sons of Sir Patrick
Dunbar, by Isabel, yst. da. of Thomas (Randolph), Earl of Moray
abovenamed.
Their names were Patrick, who was b. 1304 and d. before 5
Sep. 1351, and John, living 5 Sep. 1351, and 5 Oct. 1354, who
d. before (this date) July 1368.
<c> This is the first record of any charter settling the title.
In it the Earl is called Patricius Dunbarr, miles, ultimus
Comes ejusdem, referring to the words totum comitatium
marchie which appear in the line above. (ex. inform.
A. H. Dunbar).
[2] CP IV:507, sub " 7. PATRICK [DE DUNBAR]".
[3] 'Patrike de Dunebarre', knight, served with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July
1298 together with his father. His arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of cinquefoils of
the field a label of three points azure' (Falkirk Roll H36).
His father the Earl was then alive: his arms - Gules, a lion
rampant - are noted in the roll as ' les armes le Counte
patrike ' as he was also at Falkirk.
[4] CP IV:508, note (b) as cited in note [1] above.
* John P. Ravilious
Diane Sheppard
John, thank you for your comments on the earls of Dunbar. One conflict
between SP & CP is the numbering, but the parties can be identified
easily by death dates and spouses. The main conflict appears to be the
placements of Alexandar. SP and CP both agree that George was the son
of Patrick who married Isabel Randolph. Both agree that Patrick was
the son of Alexander. The key, therefore, is whether Alexander was the
son of Patrick (d. 1308 or his brother (as stated in SP).
I also agree that resolving the conflict between SP and CP lies in the
primary documents and how the various parties are identified in the
documents themselves versus any interpretations made by the editors.
Over the next few days I plan to make a list of the primary sources as
listed in SP & CP. Some of these sources are available in the Detroit
Public Library. When I am able to visit the library I will try to copy
them. The librarians are sticky on this issue and it depends on the
age, size and condition of the volume. I will focus on particularly on
the dates of the document, the identification of the Dunbars and any
stated relationship to another Dunbar.
Thanks again for your post.
Diane Sheppard
WJho...@aol.com
<< Patrick was "b. about 1285", and
makes statements later in the same and next sentences
based on this; unfortunately, no documentation is cited for
this, which appears to be surmised from the statement
under the previous account for Patrick's father that
"He m., in or shortly before 1282, Marjory, da. of
Alexander (COMYN), Earl of Buchan...." [2]. The date given
in that account also unfortunately is provided with no
documentation, or justificiation.
>>
Thank you John for this great post.
I wonder if this explains why, in my database, I have an unusual entry for
one daughter of Alexander
It says "Agnes or Marjory or Emma Comyn" And this person is supposed to have
married Malise, 6th Earl Streathearn who d 1312/3
Now perhaps what happened what the confusion in the sources would explain
Agnes [of Randolph] who marries Patrick of Dunbar, Marjory who marries Patrick of
Dunbar, and Emma [Ermengarde] who also marries Patrick of Dunbar.
But just that they are three different Patricks! Father, son and grandson.
Now I have to go through and resource this woman.
You present an interesting idea.
Will
Nathaniel Taylor
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote:
> Certain texts may provide further certainty: among those that
> hold the most promise in this matter are the dispensations granted
> for the marriage of Patrick de Dunbar to Agnes Randolph cited (with
> sources being documented) in CP IV:507, note (d). It is possible
> that the wording in those dispensations may indicate if the husband
> of Agnes Randolph was then Earl, or son of the Earl, in 1320 or
> 1323/4. Should anyone have access to same, or a documented
> reference that can be sought, that would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
>
> NOTES:
>
> <NOTES, from CP IV:507>
>
> <d> He had Papal disp., 18 Aug. 1320, to m. Agnes, da. of Ralph
> [i.e. Randolph] of the diocese of St. Andrews, related to
> him in the 4th degree, and again 16 Jan. 1323/4, to remain m.
> to her though related in the 3rd and 4th degree. V.G.
John, I realize I have notes on these dispensations at hand, as part of
a tabulation I did for an article on marriage litigation &
dispensations. These are where you'd expect them in the published
series [=Calendar of entries in the Papal registers relating to Great
Britain and Ireland: Papal letters, ed. W. H. Bliss (London, 1898-)];
the first is at 2:201 and the second at 2:235. For the first
dispensation/mandate the subject is simply 'Patrick de Dunbar',
apparently not called earl (or not so noted in the abstract). In the
second (post-facto) dispensation, Patrick is definitely called an earl
(I think I jotted down "Earl of March", but can this be correct?), and
Agnes is identified more fully as daughter of Thomas Randolph, earl of
Moray.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
Nathaniel Taylor
> In the
> second (post-facto) dispensation, Patrick is definitely called an earl
> (I think I jotted down "Earl of March", but can this be correct?)...
er, duh.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-B8...@news1.east.earthlink.net...
CE Wood
One of their sons was:
Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1285, d. 11/11/1368, m. 1st Ermengarde abt 1303,
m. 2nd abt Sep 1320, Agnes Randolph (dau. Thomas Randolph & Isabel
Stewart.
Patrick & Agnes had a dau., Agnes who m. James Douglas, d. 1420.
CE Wood
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1242, d 10/10/1308, m. abt. 1282, Marjory Comyn.
One of their sons was:
Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1285, d. 11/11/1368, m. 1st Ermengarde abt 1303,
m. 2nd abt Sep 1320, Agnes Randolph (dau. Thomas Randolph & Isabel
Stewart.
Patrick & Agnes had a dau., Agnes who m. James Douglas, d. 1420.
CE Wood >>
This is the very thing we're discussing.
The idea that Patrick of Dunbar could be a knight and in battle by 14 is
fairly absurd.
Also if the marriage dispensation where he is *not* called Earl in 1320 holds
up, that might be a good indication that Ermengarde and Agnes were married to
two different Patrick of Dunbar's as previously theorized here.
Will
the...@aol.com
Thursday, 4 August, 2005
Dear Nat,
Thanks for your reply, and the details provided. One must rely at
times on such calendars, which I think provide sufficient details in most
cases - when I get a chance I will also check at the LOC, if Bliss'
edition is held there.
From your notes, it is tempting to hypothesize the following:
1. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, m. Ermengarde in or
before 1303.
2. Their son, Patrick, born ca. 1304 or before, received
dispensation (dated 18 Aug 1320) to marry Agnes Randolph.
Identified as 'Patrick de Dunbar', he was the heir to the
Earl, but his father was then alive. The actual marriage
occurred between 18 Aug. 1320 and January 1323/4.
3. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, died between Aug. 1320 and
16 January 1323/4.
4. Patrick, Earl ["8.5"] of Dunbar, obtained the 'followup'
dispensation for his existing marriage to Agnes Randolph,
evidently because they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees
but the original dispensation claimed a 4th degree
relationship only. Patrick is called 'Earl' in this
dispensation, having succeeded his father as Earl of Dunbar
before Jan. 1323/4.
This is a conjecture, but certainly a possibility: the language
you cite from the dispensations (per the calendar) would certainly fit
this reconstruction. In addition, our 88+ year old Earl Patrick (in
1368) could be 'downgraded' to a more typical age of say 64 or more
at his death, as son of the 8th Earl and his wife Ermengarde.
Your further comments on this conjecture, and suggestions for
further documentation, would be much appreciated. When I get a chance,
perhaps there are more leads in Bain's work.
Cheers,
John
WJho...@aol.com
<< 4. Patrick, Earl ["8.5"] of Dunbar, obtained the 'followup'
dispensation for his existing marriage to Agnes Randolph,
evidently because they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees
but the original dispensation claimed a 4th degree
relationship only. Patrick is called 'Earl' in this
dispensation, having succeeded his father as Earl of Dunbar
before Jan. 1323/4. >>
Is there something which shows the exact manner in which they were related in
the 3rd and 4th degrees? Does the idea that the 1320 dispensation only
mention one connection and the 1323 mention two means that the families themselves
were confused about their own genealogy?
Thanks
Will
Nathaniel Taylor
the...@aol.com wrote:
John,
I think the scenario you state is perfectly plausible and consistent
with the divergent wording on the two dispensations. I would point out
that the 1320 document is technically distinct: it is a papal mandate,
granting papal authority to a local figure (prior of Roxburgh) to issue
a dispensation on behalf of the church. The 1324 document is a
dispensation proprement dit, effected through the bishop of Glasgow.
At least according to the calendar, the latter dispensation specifically
refers to Patrick as 'earl of March'. Is it possible that a son would
have been given this title in 1320x23, while the father was still alive
and styled 'earl of Dunbar'? I haven't followed all the politics here,
so don't know whether this is an impossible suggestion. It certainly
seems plausible that, as you've conjectured, there is a father-son pair
here, and the son succeeded to an 'earldom' (whatever it was) on the
death of his father, between the two dispensations.
There's a reasonable amount of recent literature on the years of Robert
Bruce through Robert II--perhaps some of it could be trolled for tidbits
further illuminating these Dunbars.
Has Andrew MacEwen looked at this question, does anyone know?
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat (et al.),
I spoke with Andrew MacEwen this evening re: the Dunbar
problem(s), and in particular re: the problems concerning Patrick,
[8th Earl in the CP account] he noted that he has worked on this
for many, many years without a definite resolution. However, he
also agreed that this Earl Patrick was older than either SP or CP
states, and noted the following from his research:
A. Patrick was knighted on St. George's Day, 23 April, 1296
en route to the siege of Dunbar;
B. Sir Patrick was the first of many Scots nobles to whom
King Edward I wrote letters from Portsmouth on 24 May
1297. The letter was addressed to "Patricio filio
Patricii comitis Marchiae" [Stevenson, Hist. Docs.
II:167, No. 429 as cited by Andrew MacEwen], and so was
clearly addressed to him and not his father, the then
Earl Patrick.
~ Following the young Sir Patrick, the next nobles to
whom letters were addressed on the same matter: Robert
de Brus, Earl of Carrick; John, brother of James the
Stewart; and Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, in that order.
C. The age given for this Sir Patrick de Dunbar in his
father's IPM is wrong. He is said to be aged 24 at his
father's death/IPM in 1308/09 [CP and SP agree in this],
but Andrew states there is evidence beyond the above that
he was more likely 34 at that time - another case of
no reliance to be placed on ages in IPMs. If '24 and
more' was intended, that is another matter, but again
the alleged birth date of "about 1285" is not supported.
Andrew is of the opinion, esp. with the knighting in 1296 and
Edward I's writing to him in 1297, that 1280 is a date too late;
that he was likely about 21 years of age in 1296, and more likely
born "say 1275".
As to George, Earl of Dunbar, Andrew states that he was clearly
the great-grandson of Marjory Comyn, and the SP account on the
matter is in error (on several levels). He stated that George was
the son of Sir Patrick de Dunbar; that it is not proven per se that
this was the same "Patrick son of Lord Alexander son of the Earl of
Dunbar", but that if he was, then this Sir Patrick de Dunbar was a
grandson of Marjory Comyn, and therefore of the [7th] Earl Patrick
of Dunbar who d. in 1308. Therefore his [Sir Patrick's] father
could not have been the Alexander de Dunbar of the Turnberry Band
(1286), but rather another Alexander de Dunbar, son of Earl Patrick
and Marjory Comyn.
Cheers,
John
WJho...@aol.com
<< Sir Patrick was the first of many Scots nobles to whom King Edward
I wrote letters from Portsmouth on 24 May 1297. The letter was
addressed to "Patricio filio Patricii comitis Marchiae" [Stevenson, Hist.
Docs. II:167, No. 429 as cited by Andrew MacEwen], and so was
clearly addressed to him and not his father, the then Earl Patrick. >>
It would be interesting to know what the nature of the letter was.
Would Edward write a letter to a boy just into long pants? It probably
depends on the nature of what he wrote.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
<< Therefore his [Sir Patrick's] father
could not have been the Alexander de Dunbar of the Turnberry Band
(1286), but rather another Alexander de Dunbar, son of Earl Patrick
and Marjory Comyn. >>
I don't understand the logic of this last statement.
Why exactly could Alexander not be of the Turnberry Band (1286) ?
Thanks
Will
Jwc...@aol.com
If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297, then the person in question was the one who
succeeded his father in 1289 at age 47 and more, and so would have been about 54
or so. He was equally attached to the powerful Brus and Comyn families as He
was a grandson of Earl Patrick and Euphemia (Brus) Dunbar of Dunbar and husband
to Lady Marjory Comyn. He died in 1308, aged 66 or more.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297 >>
I thought the statment was "Patrick, son of Patrick count of March" ?
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
<< The letter was addressed to "Patricio filio
Patricii comitis Marchiae" >>
Is this to be read
1) Patrick, son of Patrick [who the latter is] Count of March
or
2) Patrick, son of Patrick, and who [the former is] Count of March
Thanks
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
It translates as, " [to] Patrick, son of Earl Patrick of March "
[or, more conventionally, " [to] Patrick, son of Patrick, Earl of March
".
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
Dear Will,
In your last message, you wrote in response to my last post:
-----------------------
<< Therefore his [Sir Patrick's] father could not have been
the Alexander de Dunbar of the Turnberry Band
(1286), but rather another Alexander de Dunbar, son of Earl
Patrick and Marjory Comyn. >>
I don't understand the logic of this last statement.
Why exactly could Alexander not be of the Turnberry Band (1286) ?
---------------------
Following is a partial pedigree of the Earls of Dunbar, from
Patrick [6th Earl in the CP account] to George, Earl of Dunbar,
reflecting the descent as I see it (concurring with CP on this
point). Alexander, the 6th Earl's son, is shown in the SP
account as the ancestor of Earl George: with regard to the
chronological problem with this identification which I've noted,
Andrew MacEwen concurs that he is not Earl George's ancestor.
The account in SP III:259-260 Andrew notes is in error, as this
Alexander de Dunbar is recorded up to ca. 1290, but thereafter
disappears from the record as far as can be ascertained after
that time. The reference that this Alexander de Dunbar "was
alive on 26 June 1331" [SP III:259] is due to a conflation
between this Alexander, and the Sir Alexander, grandfather of
Earl George, as shown below.
Hope this is of use.
Cheers,
John *
1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 24 Aug 1289, Whittinghame, March [East Lothian][1]
Birth: bef 13 Dec 1213[2],[1]
Occ: Earl of March 1248-1289
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (ca1185->1248)
Mother: Euphemia de Brus (-ca1267)
Earl of March [Scotland]
of Beanley, Northumberland[3]
his father d. before 13 Dec 1248:
' #1750. Dec. 13, 1248.
The king has taken the homage of Patric earl of Dunbar for all the
lands and tenements that Patric his father held of the king in
capite, and to which he succeeds in heritage; and the Sheriff of
Northumberland is commanded to give him seizin, and to cause all
the earl's men in the bailliary to be intentive and answerable to
him as their lord. Windsor. [Patent Rolls, 33
Henry III, m.9].'[4]
' Charter of Patrick III Earl of Dunbar, son of Patrick, son of
Patrick Earl of Dunbar granting to the Prior and monks of
Coldingham half of Bilie, viz. the half lying between the two
Restons and Aldengraw, and Chirnside and Blackburn, as in the
charter of Earl Patrick his grandfather [Misc.Ch. 743].
Witnesses: Lord David de Graham, sheriff of Berwick, Lord Aymer,
sheriff of Roxburgh, Lord Nicholas de Sules, Lord William de
Mordington, Lord Robert de Montgomery, Lord Patrick Edger, Earl's
steward, Lord Robert the Earl's uncle, Lord Robert de
Powelworthe, Lord Adam de Morham, Lord William de Scremerston,
Adam de Prendergest, Thomas de Nesbit, and others '
[Durham University Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc.
Charter 772[5]. Printed: Raine ND App. CXXXIX ]
' Charter of Patrick III, Earl of Dunbar, son of Patrick son of
Patrick Earl, granting to Henry, Prior and the monks of
Coldingham half of Bilie viz. the half between the two Restons
and Aldengraw, and Chirnside and Blackburn as in the agreement
between Earl Patrick his grandfather and Thomas, Prior [Misc.Ch.
744].
Witnesses: Lord Patrick Edger, Earl's steward, Lord Robert,
Earl's uncle, Lord David de Graham, sheriff of Berwick, Lord
Simon Bayard, Lord Adam de Edington, Lord Robert de Montgomery,
Lord William de Scremerston, Lord John Chaplain? Earl's proctor,
Thomas de Nesbit, Robert son of the steward of Coldingham, Adam
de Prendergest, & many others ' [Durham University Library
Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 773[5]. Printed:
Raine ND App. CXL ]
'Patricius Comes de Dunbar', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[2]
commander of a division of the Scots army at the Battle of Largs,
1263
attended the ratification of the treaty with Norway, 6 July 1266
' Patrick Earl of Dunbarr ', witness to a royal confirmation by
Alexander II, King of Scots of a grant by 'Reginald Prath knight
made to William de Swyneburn for his homage and service of the
lands of Haluchton', dated at Jeddewrth, 1st May in the 18th year
of his reign [1 May 1267] -A2A, Northumberland Record Office:
Swinburne (Capheaton) estate records [ZSW/1 - ZSW/59],
ZSW/1/22[6]
' Charter of Patrick III Earl of Dunbar, quitclaiming to the
Prior and Convent of Coldingham a feast which used to be given
him yearly in the house of Coldingham.
Witnesses: Lord Thomas Ranulphi, sheriff of Berwick, Lord Simon
Fraser, Lord Hugh de Peresby, sheriff of Roxburgh, Lord Alan de
Ormeston, William de Boddeby, John his son, Philip de Haliburton,
John de Wyndscales, John the clerk, and others.
At Duns. 4 Kal. June [29 May] 1279. ' [Durham University
Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 773[5]]
witness to the marriage contract between Princess Margaret and
King Eric of Norway at Roxburgh, 25 Jul 1281
attended Parliament at Scone, Feb 1284 (when Princess Margaret of
Norway was declared heir to the Scots throne) [SP III:258[1] ]
' Patricius comes de Dunbar', together with his sons entered into
a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others
at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de
Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[7] ]
cf. CP IV:506[2]
SP III:258[1]
Spouse: Cecilia 'filia Johannis'
Father: John fitz Robert of Warkworth, Northumberland(-1240)
Mother: Ada de Baliol (-1251)
Children: Patrick (<1242-1308)
John
Alexander
1.1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 10 Oct 1308[1],[8]
Birth: bef 11 Nov 1242[2]
Occ: Earl of March 1289-1308
Earl of March
of Beanley, Northumberland[3]
'Patricius', together with his father and brothers, entered into
a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others
at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de
Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[7] ]
' Dunbar comes de Marchia, Patricius de (Patrik de Dunbar, comte
de la Marche). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[9] ]
competitor for the Scottish crown, 1291/92[1]: following which,
'Patrick, earl of March', one of the auditors for the claim of
Bruce at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[10] ]
' Le Conte Patrike ', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July
1298 : his arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of
cinquefoils of the field ' (Falkirk Roll H 23[11])
cf. SP III:258[1]
CP IV:506[2]
Spouse: Marjory Comyn
Father: Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (-<1290)
Mother: Elizabeth de Quincy
Children: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar [or March]
Sir Alexander
1.1.1 Sir Alexander of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: [allegedly] aft 26 June 1331
' Lord Alexander, son of the Earl of Dunbar ', father of Patrick
de Dunbar [charter of his son Patrick, given at Lower Ayton, 26
June or 4 September 1331 [Durham University Library Archives &
Special Collections: Misc. Charter 1038[5] ]
conflated in the Scots Peerage account [SP III:259-260] with
Alexander de Dunbar, his uncle, who was party to the Turnberry
Band in 1286 [7], [13]
cf. SP III:259-260
CP IV:508
Children: Sir Patrick (-1357)
1.1.1.1 Sir Patrick Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 1357[1]
charter granted 1331:
' Charter of Patrick de Dunbar, son of Lord Alexander, son of the
Earl of Dunbar, granting and quitclaiming in the Prior's court at
Ayton, on Wednesday after the Feast of St John the Baptist, to
Adam de Pontefract, Prior, and the Convent of Coldingham, ½
carrucate of land in Swinewood, which he bought from Thomas, son
of Ralph.
Witnesses: Lord Robert de Lawedre, Justiciar of Lothian,
Robert de Lawedre his son, sheriff, Henry de Prendergest, Hugh
Giffard, John de Rayngton, Henry de Swinton, Gilbert de Lumsden,
Roger de Lumsden, John de Paxton , and many others
Given at Lower Ayton Wednesday after the Feast of St John
Baptist [26 June or 4 September] 1331 ' [Durham University
Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 1038[5]
{Seal: G&B 2811. Attached by parchment strip through foot of
document. Printed: Raine ND App. CCCCXXXII}]
fought against the English at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356
identified by Fordun as the father of George, Earl of March (SP
III:270, sub _Dunbar_)[1]
cf. SP III:260
CP IV:508
Spouse: Isabella Randolph
Father: Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray (-1332)
Mother: Isabel le Steward
Children: George (ca1340-ca1420)
John Dunbar, Earl of Moray
Patrick (-<1421)
Agnes (-<1378), m. (2ndly) James Douglas of Dalkeith
David (-<1424)
1.1.1.1.1 George Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1340
Death: ca 1420[1]
Occ: Earl of March
Earl of March
deserted the Scottish cause and promised allegiance to Henry IV of
England; directed the English effort at the Battle of Homildon
(1402)[1]
cf. SP III:270, sub _Dunbar_[1]
Thompson and Hansen 13(2):253-4 #1116[12]
Spouse: Christiana Wardlaw
Children: George, Earl of March (-ca1455)
Sir David (-ca1452)
1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
1910 - [microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete
Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
3. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
4. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Magna Carta line of Eufemia (was
Eufemia wife of William Comyn of Kilbride)," 22 October 2004,
email Claud...@aol.com
cites Calendar of Documents pertaining to Scotland preserved
in her majestys public Record office, London edited by Joseph
Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2302. May 19, 1262.
5. "Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous Charters," Durham
University Library Archives & Special Collections,
http://flambard.dur.ac.uk:6336/dynaweb/handlist/ddc/dcdmisch/@Generic__BookTextView/10523
6. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
7. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the Earls
and Earldom of Mentieth.
8. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta ancestry," 14 February 2005,
email royala...@msn.com.
9. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore
allegiance to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the
'Ragman Rolls').
10. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew,"
Paisley: Printed and sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally,
Edinburgh : Printed by James Watson, 1710), [also as cited by
Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan],
' containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
11. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of
those having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the
battle of Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298,, when the
forces of Edward I defeated a Scottish army under William
Wallace.
It is accepted that the roll was composed shortly afterwards.
The original blazon is in the Anglo-Norman dialect, from a
copy of the roll made by Robert Glover, c1585. The source of
this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I,
Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
12. Neil D Thompson and Charles M Hansen, ""A Medieval Heritage:
The Ancestry of Charles II, King of England"," The
Genealogist, a graphical summary of this ambitious project
provided by the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, URL:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/
13. Conversation with Andrew B. W. MacEwen, 4 August 2005
concerning the Dunbar pedigree and specific errors as given
in both Scots Peerage and Complete Peerage.
* John P. Ravilious
Diane Sheppard
Thank you for posting the additional documentation regarding the earls
of Dunbar and March, a summary of your conversation with Andrew
MacEwen, and your revised descent of the earls of Dunbar. The
additional documentation and your converation with Andrew have
convinced me that you are correct and that SP had conflated two
different Alexanders. I will change my database.
Two points that helped convince me of SP's error (and my error in
following them) were 1. the fact that the first Alexander was so well
noted in the records up to 1289-1290 and then disappears until 1331 (as
SP has conflated him). The 40+ year gap had puzzled me.. 2. the second
Alexander, as you have correctly proposed, does not appear in the
records until he is identified in his son's quitclaim deed to the monks
at Coldingham in 1331.
Thanks again for taking interest in this thread and for all your hard
work in tracking down these primary records.
Diane Sheppard
Diane Sheppard
John's August 4th post at 11:07 has convinced me that he is correct
that there was a second Alexander Dunbar.
However, you raised a good point about looking at the recent literature
on this period. Although none of the books that I have in my library
lay out the revised descent, the following books provide good
background material on the various earls and might be worth consulting
for those who are interested in more that the basic facts about a
particular individual. The following list is not in any particular
order. All of the books are available directly through Amazon or
through their used book program.
1. GWS Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of The Realm of
Scotland", Edinburgh University Press, reprint, 1999
2. Alan Young, "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314",
Tuckwell Press, reprint 1998
3. Michael Brown, "The Black Douglases", Tuckwell Press, reprint 1999
4. Stephen Boardman, "The Early Stewart Kings Robert II and Robert III,
1371-1406, Tuckwell Press, reprint 1997.
Thanks for posting this suggestion,
Diane Sheppard
4.
Jwc...@aol.com
My thanks to You for unravelling this puzzle.
Interestingly, Georg, though apparently parting company from his Father`s alliegence to
David II of the Scots followed the example of his Great Grandfather and
granduncle`s politics in adhering to the English / Baliol/ Comyn party. The divided
loyalties are scarce suprising given One Patrick married his stepsister Brus,
his son married a Warkworth / Baliol descendant, then his son married a Comyn,
their son or probably grandson married Thomas Randolph`s daughter Agnes,
whose father while Brus` nephew was most cooperative with his English captors in
1307/08 to such extent that He was friends with Aymer de Valence, Earl of
Pembroke and donned armor to fight his uncle`s forces (see R MacNair Scott " Robert
the Bruce, King of Scots" various pp including 82, 111, 130-32 etc).
Randolph`s father`s ancestry is unknown to me , his wife was a granddaughter of
Alexander le Stewart, 4th hereditary Steward of the Scots. I wonder of the
dispensation wasn`t through the Galloway- Carrick connection.
Regards to Andrew MacEwen for his good suggestions.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297, then the person in question was the
one who
succeeded his father in 1289 at age 47 and more, and so would have been
about 54
or so. He was equally attached to the powerful Brus and Comyn families as He
was a grandson of Earl Patrick and Euphemia (Brus) Dunbar of Dunbar and
husband
to Lady Marjory Comyn. He died in 1308, aged 66 or more. >>
Except James, that reading would give Edward addressing Patrick's father as
Earl even though that person had been dead for 8 years. I would prefer a
reading where both Patrick and his father were still living.
Will
WJho...@aol.com
<< 1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 24 Aug 1289, Whittinghame, March [East Lothian][1]
Birth: bef 13 Dec 1213[2],[1]
Occ: Earl of March 1248-1289
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (ca1185->1248)
Mother: Euphemia de Brus (-ca1267) >>
John I see you are calling him Earl of March.
But in all the documentation you presented on him, it always refers to him as
Earl or Count of Dunbar.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
I goofed. I answered your query before I`d read and digested
it thoroughly. Of course it read that Edward I wrote a letter to Patricius,son
of Patricius, Comitius Marchiae in 1297. His Father, not He was about 54
given his age as 47 and more in 1289, when He succeeded his father. Patricius,
the Earl`s son was I believe 24 according to John, which means He was born in
about 1273 and he seems to have had a son Patricius born in 1304 to his wife
Ermengarde, not the most popular given name for a Scots woman. could She have
been English ? Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray`s mother is a puzzle. He is
continually refered to as a nephew of King Robert I of the Scots, yet it is often
denied that She was daughter of either Adam de Kilquohar or a daughter of
Margaret of Carrick by Robert VI Brus, Earl of Carrick and Lord of Annandale
either.
This would appear to leave us with 4 possible options.
1 His mother was a natural daughter of Robert VI Brus
2 His mother was a natural daughter of Margaret, Countess of Carrick
3 His mother was a sister of Robert VII Brus/ King Robert I of Scots
1st wife Isabel, daughter of Donald I, 6th Earl of Mar (unless there is a
record of Elizabeth Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I
4 the original records refer to Thomas, 1st Earl of Moray as being
Robert I`s nepos but the meaning is younger kinsman rather than nephew.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Of course it read that Edward I wrote a letter to Patricius,son
of Patricius, Comitius Marchiae in 1297. His Father, not He was about 54
given his age as 47 and more in 1289, when He succeeded his father.
Patricius,
the Earl`s son was I believe 24 according to John, which means He was born
in
about 1273 and he seems to have had a son Patricius born in 1304 to his wife
Ermengarde, not the most popular given name for a Scots woman. >>
Just to make clear. I'm not sure we can *say* he was 24.
The most we can say really is that he appears to have been born before 1275,
but there really aren't any firm birthdates for any of these fellows. His son
Patrick was not born IN 1304, but rather before 1305. One problem with the
whole line, is the lack of any good firm birthdates to grasp onto.
Will Johnson