Guelph I of Bavaria, ca. 1035
mond...@mail.utexas.edu
and the Wittelsbachs?
2) Does anyone have a line from Azo II of Este, Marquess of Este (b. bef
997), who is the father of Guelph I of Bavaria, to connect him to the Este
family? The earliest I have of Este is Alfonso II (b 1533) and the latest
is Ercole II (d. 1559).
Thanks,
Francesca Sutton
John Carmi Parsons
> 1) Is there any connection between Guelph I (Welf) of Bavaria (b. abt 1035)
> and the Wittelsbachs?
There are probably a number of female-line descents from Welf to the
Wittelsbachs, but if you mean to ask whether Welf is the male-line
ancestor of that family, the answer is no.
2) Does anyone have a line from Azo II of Este, Marquess of Este (b. bef
> 997), who is the father of Guelph I of Bavaria, to connect him to the Este
> family? The earliest I have of Este is Alfonso II (b 1533) and the latest
> is Ercole II (d. 1559).
This is indeed the same Este family. The origins of the Estensi are very
much debated. Many authorities trace their descent from a Marquess Oberto
(fl. 945-75), whose second wife was a daughter, sister or possibly
granddaughter of King Hugh of Italy. It is however uncertain if that wife
was the mother of Oberto's son Oberto II (d. 1021), who continued the
line.
Oberto I, BTW, is described by some as the son of Alberto, Marquess of
Este (fl. 890-925), grandson of Boniface (fl. 889-94) and great-grandson
of Albert I, marquess of Tuscany (d. 884/90). This Albert in turn was son
of Marquess Boniface II of Tuscany (fl. 834) and grandson of Marquess
Boniface I (fl. 812/13). Some of these links are reliable, though many
question the accuracy of the Este derivation from them.
It is well documented that Oberto II (d. 1021) married Railenda, dau. of
Count Riprand of Piacenza; V. Fumagalli suggests Railenda had Carolingian
descents both from Charlemagne's son Pepin-Carloman, king of Italy (d.
810) and Louis the Pious (see his article in _Studi Medievali_, 3rd ser.
14, pt. 1 [1973]).
Oberto and Railenda were the parents of Alberto or Azzo I (d. 1029), father of
the Alberto alias Azzo II (d. 1097) whose first wife was Cunegunde, heiress of
the first line of Welf counts. Alberto/Azzo I was married twice; the mother of
Alberto/Azzo II was probably Waldrade Candiano, daughter of Pietro Candiano,
doge of Venice, by Waldrade who was certainly a daughter of King Hugh of Italy.
(This filiation makes it doubtful that Albert Azzo II's great-grandfather
Oberto I could also have married a daughter of King Hugh).
I am relying here chiefly on the tables in Cinzio Violante's _Structures
Familiales en Lombardie, Emilie et Toscane aux XIe et XIIe siecles_.
Please note that "Obizzo" is a nickname for Oberto and "Azzo" for Alberto;
they are not distinct or double names, though some English-speaking
authorities render them so.
John Parsons
Frank Johansen
mond...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> 1) Is there any connection between Guelph I (Welf) of Bavaria (b. abt 1035)
> and the Wittelsbachs?
>
> 2) Does anyone have a line from Azo II of Este, Marquess of Este (b. bef
> 997), who is the father of Guelph I of Bavaria, to connect him to the Este
> family? The earliest I have of Este is Alfonso II (b 1533) and the latest
> is Ercole II (d. 1559).
>
> Thanks,
> Francesca Sutton
Here's what I've got from Paul Theroff's files, Francisca:
Azzo II (997-1097), Marquess of Este, m. (1) ca. 1035 to Kunigunde of Altdorf,
m. (2) Gersende of Main. His sons by the second marriage was:
a. Hugues V, Count of Main, and
b. Folco I, Marchese d'Este (-1128). His descendants:
__________|
|
Obizzo I d'Este (-1193), m. (1) N.N., m. (2) Sopha dei Vincenti (-1202)
|
|
Azzo V d'Este (-1193)
|
|
Azzo VI d'Este, Lord of Ferrara (-1212), m. (1) daugther of Count Aldebrandino,
m. (2) Sophie of Savoy (-1202), m. (3) Alix of Antioch (-1235)
|
|
Azzo VII d'Este, Lord of Ferrara (1205-1264), m. (1) Joanna (-1233), m. (2)
1238 Amabilia di Pallavicini (-ca.1274)
|
|
Rinaldo I d'Este, Lord of Ferrara (-1251), m. aft 1240 Adelaide di Romano
|
|
Obizzo II d'Este, Lord of Ferrara (1247-1293), m. (1) 1263 Jacobina Fiesco
(-1287), m. (2) 1289 Constanza della Scala (-1306)
|
|
Aldobrandino II d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1326), m. 1289 Alda Rangoni
(-1325)
|
|
Rinaldo II d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1335), m. (1) Lucrezia Barbiano, m. (2)
Orsolina di Macaruffi (-1362)
|
|
Alberto d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1347-1393), m. (1) 1388 Giovanna di Roberti
(-1393), m. (2) 1393 Isotta Albaresani
|
|
Niccolo III d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1441), m. (1) 1397 Cecilia di Carrara
(-1416), m. (2) 1418 Parasina Malatesta (-1425), m. (3) 1431 Ricciarde di
Saluzzo (-1474)
|
|
Ercole I d'Este, Duke of Modena and Ferrara (1431-1505), m. 1473 Eleonore of
Naples (1450-1593)
|
|
Alfonso I d'Este, Duke of Modena and Ferrara (1476-1534), m. (1) 1491 Anna
Sforza di Milano (1473-1497), m. (2) 1502 Lucrezia Borgia (1480-1519), m. (3)
Laura Dianti (-1573). One of his sons was
!*!*ERCOLE II d'ESTE*!*!,
Duke of Modena and Ferrara (1508-155), m. 1528 Renée of France (1510-1575). His
son was !*!*ALFONSO II d'ESTE*!*!,
Duke of Modena and Ferrara (1533-1597).
Another son of ALFONSO I d'ESTE was:
Alfonso d'Este (1527-1587), m. (1) 1549 Giulia della Rovere (-1563), m. (2)
1584 Violante Signa (1546-1609)
|
|
Cesare d'Este, Duke of Modena (1552-1628), m. 1586 Virginia dei Medici
(1568-1615)
|
|
Alfonso III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1591-1644), m. 1608 Isabella of Savoy
(1591-1626)
|
|
Francesco I d'Este, Duke of Modena (16101-1658), m. (1) 1631 Maria Farnese
(1615-1646), m. (2) 1648 Vittoria Farnese (1618-1649), m. (3) 1654 Lucrezia
Barberini (1630-1699)
|
|
Rinaldo III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1655-1737), m. 1696 Charlotte of
Braunschweig-Lüneburg (1671-1710)
|
|
Francesco III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1698-1780), m. 1720 Charlotte d'Orléans
(1700-1761)
|
|
Ercole III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1727-1803), m. 1741 Maria Theresa Cybo
(1725-1790)
|
|
Maria Beatrice d'Este (1750-1829), m. 1771 Archduke Ferdinand of Austria
(-1806)
Brant Gibbard
<frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
> |
> |
>Rinaldo II d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1335), m. (1) Lucrezia Barbiano, m. (2)
>Orsolina di Macaruffi (-1362)
> |
> |
>Alberto d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1347-1393), m. (1) 1388 Giovanna di Roberti
>(-1393), m. (2) 1393 Isotta Albaresani
> |
> |
Is there a generation missing here, or is there a typo in one of the
dates? As listed Alberto is born 12 years after his father's death.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@inforamp.net
Toronto, Ont.
rwje...@hctc.net
Gibbard) wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:28:21 +0100, Frank Johansen
><frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
>
>
>> |
>> |
>>Rinaldo II d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1335), m. (1) Lucrezia Barbiano, m. (2)
>>Orsolina di Macaruffi (-1362)
>> |
>> |
>>Alberto d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1347-1393), m. (1) 1388 Giovanna di Roberti
>>(-1393), m. (2) 1393 Isotta Albaresani
>> |
My source has Alberto as the son of Rinaldo's brother Obizzo III
(d.1352)
By my source, Rinaldo had two sons who lived to maturity,
Aldobrandino, Bishop of Ferrara (d.1381); & Azzo (d.1371).
They were for some reason excluded from the succession, and
Rinaldo's brother became the Margrave.
My source is a chart in a book called HERALDRY OF THE ROYAL
FAMILIES OF EUROPE, by Jiri Louda & Michael Maclagan (Clarkson N.
Potter Inc. 1981)
Robert
Frank Johansen
rwje...@hctc.net wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:27:28 GMT, bgib...@inforamp.net (Brant
> Gibbard) wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:28:21 +0100, Frank Johansen
> ><frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> |
> >> |
> >>Rinaldo II d'Este, Margrave of Modena (-1335), m. (1) Lucrezia Barbiano, m. (2)
> >>Orsolina di Macaruffi (-1362)
> >> |
> >> |
> >>Alberto d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1347-1393), m. (1) 1388 Giovanna di Roberti
> >>(-1393), m. (2) 1393 Isotta Albaresani
> >> |
>
> My source has Alberto as the son of Rinaldo's brother Obizzo III
> (d.1352)
Yes, that is correct. I'm wrong....
Alberto d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1347-1393), son of
Obizzo III d'Este, Margrave of Modena (1294-1352), m. (1) 1317 Elisabeth of
Saxe-Wittenberg (d. 1341), m. (2) Lippa Ariosto (d. 1347). Son of
Aldobrandino II d'Este, Margrave of Modena
> By my source, Rinaldo had two sons who lived to maturity,
> Aldobrandino, Bishop of Ferrara (d.1381); & Azzo (d.1371).
>
> They were for some reason excluded from the succession, and
> Rinaldo's brother became the Margrave.
Both were men of the Curch, and had no (legitimate) children. I guess they passed up
succession volunteerly..
Frank