Possible illegitimate parentage of Ralph de Monthermer, one time Earl of Gloucester ?

[msallen]

Its been a few years since my last posting to the list, but I'm just
putting this out there to be shot down, so please feel free!

I've no personal interest in Ralph's de Monthermer's ancestry, and
certainly no knowledge of any recent work on it, but whilst looking
into what became of Isabel de Mortimer, daughter of Robert de Mortimer
of Richard's Castle (c1252-1287) this evening, I came up with this
idle speculation...

After the death of Joyce, widow of Robert de Mortimer, in 1290, his
daughter Isabel claimed that her mother had bestowed the manor of
Huntebere, Devon, on her during her widowhood [See IPM of Joyce in Cal
IPM, Vol 2, no 785 & Cal Close Rolls, 1288-96, p159]. Assuming Isabel
to have been of age at the time, she was thus born in or before 1269
(but not too long before given that her father would only have been
about 17 then)

I can find no later mention of her. However the manor of Huntebere
appears again in the holdings of Thomas de Monte Hermerii (son of
Ralph) at his IPM in 1340. Unfortunately I don't have access to Volume
6 of the Cal IPMs, right now to see if it is mentioned in his
father's, who died in 1325).

The timeline is very tight, but Isabel could have had children as soon
the early 1280s, and so the Ralph Monthermer who married Joan of Acre
in 1297, could just about have been her son.

The similarity between Mortimer and Monthermer is striking (but not so
much between Mortuo Mari and Monte Hermerii admittedly), and given
that Ralph was reputed to be illegitimate [http://
edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/2008/03/piers-gavestons-insulting-
nicknames-and.html cites the Annals of London in which, in 1304, he
was referred to as "the earl of Gloucester, called a bastard"], the
latter name could well be a mutation of the former.

OK, thats all I've got. Fire at will !

[foxtrotlimacharlie]

CP IX, p. 140 fn (c) says "He was possibly a grandson of William de
Meisnihermer. lord of Tunstal in the barony of Bolam, Northumberland,
in 1242. See Book of Fees, vol. ii, p. 1123. In 1306 John de Monte
Hermeri had papal dispensation to hold the rectory of Callan in
Kilkenny together with the vicarage of Fordingbridge, Hants (Cal.
Papal Letters, vol. ii, p. 20). The advowson of Fordingbridge at the
period was in the hands of the Earl of Gloucester (V.C.H., Hants, vol
iv, p. 576). Ralph probably pronounced his name Mehermer; it is so
spelt in a deed of his (Caram Rege Roll, Hil. I Edw. II rot 39 d), and
in his petitions (Anc. Petitions, P.R.O., 86/4285, 6, (&c.). His arms
were or, an eagle displayed vert--the arms of Lyndsey of
Northumberland."

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Mark ~

The only thing certain that is known about Ralph de Monthermer's
family is that he was kin in some way to Sir John Bluet, Knt. (died
1317), of Silchester, Hampshire and Lacock, Wiltshire, who served as
Ralph’s bachelor.

The evidence for the Bluet kinship can be found in the newsgroup
archives.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[msallen]

Thanks both of you. As I said, it was only idle speculation, and
whilst its not been definitively been shown to be incorrect, no-one
has given me any more reason to think it might be possible, so I think
I'll leave it there.

Cheers
Mark