Burgundy - One more try to sum up *

Jim Stevens

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May 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/16/97

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In responese to a private request to sum up the recent thread, I offer
the following. This takes into account the many contributions made during
the course of the discussion. Special thanks to Alan Wilson who continued
to provide useful comment throughout the process. I have started with the
same diagram I used to begin the thread and revised it to reflect the
necessary changes.

_________________________________________________________

*
There is a wide range of theories regarding Ermengarde's parentage. The
oldest is that she was a dau. of Richard the Justiciar, but it has no more
marit than any of the others. If true, note that she and her husband,
Giselbert, would then be 1st cousins.

**
Richard Borthwick submitted a very plausible dissenting opinion regarding
the parentage of the thrice married Adelaide. He points out that as
countships were often non hereditary at this time, it is not necessary for
her to have been a dau. of the Count of Chalon in order for her husband,
Lambert to have eventually obtained that countship.

***
The consensus opinion seems to be, as given in ES III, 49 that this
Adelaide married ROBERT, then LAMBERT, then her son-in-law GEOFFREY. The
sequence of events for this most unusual web of intermarriages would be as
follows:
950 Robert C of Troyes m. Adelaide of Burgundy & dau. Adele born.
965 Geoffrey Greymantle (age 28) m. Adele of Vermandois/Troyes
(age 15).
967 Robert died and his widow almost immediately m. Lambert.
975/8 Adele died and her widower, Geoffrey, m. after a wait of 1 to
5 years, his deceased wife's newly widowed mother,
Adelaide of Burgundy.
979 Lambert died. His widow, Adelaide, as stated above, then m. ,
almost immediately, her son-in-law, Geoffrey.

****
ES iii, 433 shows the following children for Lambert, Count
of Chalon & Adelaide of Burgundy:
1. Hugues I, Count of Chalon, d. 4 Nov 1039, Bishop of Auxerre
2. Aelis m. circa 991 Guy I, Count of Macon
3. Mahaut, Dame de Donzy d. by 1019, m. Geoffrey of Semur-en-Brionnais

A probable 4th child was Gerberga. As the arguments regarding her
perentage are quite lengthy, I am summarizing them in another posting
being transmitted concurrently with this one entitled "Parents of
Gerberga, wife of Adalbert of Italy."

Any further aditions, deletions, corrections, or reservations ?
Jim Stevens Remember, Today is the first day of the rest of your life !

Alan B. Wilson

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May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97

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I seem to have lost any copy of the message which included
a charted pedigree from Conrad II to Fulk "Nerra" and his
siblings. One element of that chart seemed to portray Manasses,
Count of Chalon, as married to an unknown daughter of Budwine,
Count of Metz.
According to Schwennicke (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln,
ii, 189 [rev. in iii(1)], Manasses, the father of Giselbert,
Duke of Burgundy, was son of (not husband of) an unknown
daughter of Budwine, Count of Metz.
Moriarty in Plantagenet Ancestry, pp. 255 and 257 mentions
very speculatively that it has been suggested that Manasses was
the son of Thierry II, Count in the Chaunois.
Stuart in Royalty for Commoners, line 258, seems to have
put these two together and married Thierry II to the unnamed
daughter of Budwine. This couple is given as the parents of
Manasses.
In any event, it would be Manasses's mother, not his wife,
who was a daughter of Budwine.

--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu

D. Spencer Hines

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May 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/18/97

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Jim Stevens wrote:
>
> In responese to a private request to sum up the recent thread, I offer
> the following. This takes into account the many contributions made during
> the course of the discussion. Special thanks to Alan Wilson who continued
> to provide useful comment throughout the process. I have started with the
> same diagram I used to begin the thread and revised it to reflect the
> necessary changes.

<snip>

Thank you Jim. This certainly pulls many loose strands together and the
abbreviated Stammtafel format is most helpful. You and Alan probably
understood exactly where the bouncing ball was at any time---but it was
more difficult for others to be sure.

I particularly appreciate the way you have called out some of the
uncertainties and ambiguities, rather than attempting to paper them
over.

To me, your work in this post is a worthy model for how to sum up a
complicated on-line genealogical discussion and put the primary and
secondary issues in proper perspective.
--

D. Spencer Hines---"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when
you find a trout in the milk."------------Henry David Thoreau 1817-1862]
---Journal---11 Nov 1854---[1906]