Richard Warren's marriage
Clagett, Brice
That does not at all impair the conclusion that the Mayflower man is the Richard Warren who married Elizabeth, daughter of Augustine Walker, at Great Amwell in 1610. The dovetailing of Elizabeth's death aged "above 90" in 1673 with her baptism in 1583, plus the fact that Augustine Walker in his will of 1613 named his grandchildren Mary, Anna and Sarah Warren and that these were the names of the oldest three children, in that order, of Richard Warren of the Mayflower and his wife Elizabeth, leave no room for reasonable doubt as to the identification. As Neil says, these facts cannot be a coincidence. It is simply not reasonable to suppose that there were two couples named Richard and Elizabeth Warren, Elizabeth having been born about 1583, who had as their oldest children Mary, Anna and Sarah born, in that order, between 1610 and 1614.
Hal Bradley
Walker's will (dated 1613) mentions the three oldest children, the children
would have been close together, i.e. 1611, 1612, and 1613, or there was a
set of twins. This should help to identify the family if the baptismal
records can be found.
Hal Bradley
Edward Davies
news:F2D28C5064A4CF468A42...@cbiexm02wa.cov.com...
[...]
> That does not at all impair the conclusion that the Mayflower man is the
> Richard Warren who married Elizabeth, daughter of Augustine Walker, at
> Great Amwell in 1610. The dovetailing of Elizabeth's death aged "above 90"
> in 1673 with her baptism in 1583, plus the fact that Augustine Walker in
his
> will of 1613 named his grandchildren Mary, Anna and Sarah Warren and
> that these were the names of the oldest three children, in that order, of
> Richard Warren of the Mayflower and his wife Elizabeth, leave no room for
> reasonable doubt as to the identification. As Neil says, these facts
cannot be
> a coincidence. It is simply not reasonable to suppose that there were two
> couples named Richard and Elizabeth Warren, Elizabeth having been born
> about 1583, who had as their oldest children Mary, Anna and Sarah born, in
> that order, between 1610 and 1614.
It's interesting to know something of Neil's view - and yours, Brice - of
the situation, now that more is known about the family of Richard and
Elizabeth (Walker) Warren.
I'm hoping to prepare an article on this subject for publication, after
having first searched some available parish registers and probate records to
see if anything else relevant turns up.
Edward Davies
Sylvia L.
The IGI lists several other Richard Warren baptisms in fairly close
proximity to Great Amwell - have any of these been eliminated?
Richard Warrin, bap. 05 JUN 1579 in Saint Paul, Bedford, Bedford, England
(30 miles from Great Amwell)
Richard Warren, son of William, bap. 09 AUG 1580 in Sandy, Bedford, England
(26 miles from Great Amwell)
Richard Warren, son of John, born 15 JAN 1580, bap. 24 JAN 1580 in Saint
Peter Cornhill, London, London, England (19 miles from Great Amwell)
Richarde Warren, son of John, bap. 12 June 1580 in Saint Giles Cripplegate,
London, London, England (19 miles from Great Amwell)
Richard Warren, bap. 1 Oct. 1581 in Harrow On The Hill, London, England (21
miles from Great Amwell)
Sylvia
>From: "Clagett, Brice" <bcla...@cov.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Richard Warren's marriage
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:05:52 -0500
>
>It now appears that Richard Warren of the Mayflower was not the Richard
>Warren baptized at Ware, Herefordshire, on August 16, 1579. Neil Thompson
>has checked the Ware parish register and found the burial of a Richard
>Warren, presumably the same one baptized, on August 23, 1579.
>
>That does not at all impair the conclusion that the Mayflower man is the
>Richard Warren who married Elizabeth, daughter of Augustine Walker, at
>Great Amwell in 1610. The dovetailing of Elizabeth's death aged "above 90"
>in 1673 with her baptism in 1583, plus the fact that Augustine Walker in
>his will of 1613 named his grandchildren Mary, Anna and Sarah Warren and
>that these were the names of the oldest three children, in that order, of
>Richard Warren of the Mayflower and his wife Elizabeth, leave no room for
>reasonable doubt as to the identification. As Neil says, these facts cannot
>be a coincidence. It is simply not reasonable to suppose that there were
>two couples named Richard and Elizabeth Warren, Elizabeth having been born
>about 1583, who had as their oldest children Mary, Anna and Sarah born, in
>that order, between 1610 and 1614.
_________________________________________________________________
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Edward Davies
news:F159RaqbC8wSA...@hotmail.com...
> This is a huge development! Does anyone have plans to publish this
> research?
As I indicated in another post in this thread, I intend to write an article
for publication giving details of the evidence I have found relating to
Richard Warren and his wife.
> The IGI lists several other Richard Warren baptisms in fairly close
> proximity to Great Amwell - have any of these been eliminated?
> [...]
Personally, I haven't yet investigated any of the baptisms you list, but
other people have done a lot of work in trying to locate Richard Warren of
the Mayflower in English records and some of the baptisms might already have
been eliminated as possibilities. Of course, it would be necessary to find
some kind of supporting evidence to clearly identify the Richard Warren
married at Great Amwell in 1610 with a particular Richard Warren baptised
about twenty or more miles away. At least the marriage gives a clue
regarding a general area in which the husband of Elizabeth Walker might have
been born/baptised (though Richard Warren of the Mayflower was already known
to have been "of London" at some point).
Edward Davies
Douglas Richardson
I've done extensive research in the area of Great Amwell, co. Hertford
in the period in question. The pattern is for people to float up and
down the Stort River which separates Hertfordshire and Essex. Couples
and their children can be found in any one of several parishes, either
in Hertfordshire or Essex. Occasionally families moved away to
London. As a general rule, you can find the people you seek.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Edward Davies" <edward...@guiseley94.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<atdhh7$90c$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Renia
>
> Personally, I haven't yet investigated any of the baptisms you list, but
> other people have done a lot of work in trying to locate Richard Warren of
> the Mayflower in English records and some of the baptisms might already have
> been eliminated as possibilities. Of course, it would be necessary to find
> some kind of supporting evidence to clearly identify the Richard Warren
> married at Great Amwell in 1610 with a particular Richard Warren baptised
> about twenty or more miles away. At least the marriage gives a clue
> regarding a general area in which the husband of Elizabeth Walker might have
> been born/baptised (though Richard Warren of the Mayflower was already known
> to have been "of London" at some point).
>
> Edward Davies
My ancestor's brother was "of London" when he went to Virginia in the
17th century, but he was a Yorkshireman.
Renia
Edward Davies
news:3DFAF440...@otenet.gr...
> My ancestor's brother was "of London" when he went to Virginia in the
> 17th century, but he was a Yorkshireman.
>
> Renia
Something similar could be the case with Richard Warren, but I think the
Great Amwell marriage and the London connection are the only clues we have
so far regarding his places of residence in England.
The source which describes Richard Warren as "of London" also states that
Mayflower passenger Stephen Hopkins was "of London", but Caleb Johnson has
shown that some of Hopkins' children had earlier been baptised at Hursley in
Hampshire.
Edward Davies
Edward Davies
news:5cf47a19.02121...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Edward ~
>
> I've done extensive research in the area of Great Amwell, co. Hertford
> in the period in question. The pattern is for people to float up and
> down the Stort River which separates Hertfordshire and Essex. Couples
> and their children can be found in any one of several parishes, either
> in Hertfordshire or Essex. Occasionally families moved away to
> London. As a general rule, you can find the people you seek.
It's clear from entries in the Great Amwell PRs for the first half of the
seventeenth century that the parish had links with London. As you suggest,
the records of various other parishes would be worth searching, though for
some places, registers might not be available for the necessary period.
Edward Davies
Caleb Johnson
Congratulations on your Richard Warren findings, this is great news!
I had been looking at the nearby Therfield, Hertfordshire Warrens for
awhile and highly suspected the Elizabeth Walker marriage, but just
couldn't find the missing link.
I might suggest the Richard Warren baptized on 9 November 1589 at
Therfield, son of John, could be the Mayflower passenger--this is the
individual I was focusing on with Leslie Mahler a couple years ago
when we were investingating this family; the Therfield Warrens are
using almost all the names found amongst the Mayflower passengers
children, and this particular Richard would have been 21 years old for
a 1610 marriage. Therfield is very close to Baldock. The name
Abigail occurs in the Walker family of Hertford.
There has been a discussion as to Richard Warren being "of London".
This comes from the 1622 publication "A Relation or Journal of the
Proceedings of the Plantation Settled at New Plymouth..." The
statement is "So ten of our men were appointed who were of themselves
willing to undertake it, to wit, Captain Standish, Master Carver,
William Bradford, Edward Winslow, John Tilley, Edward Tilley, John
Howland, and three of London, Richard Warren, Stephen Hopkins, and
Edward Doty, and two of our seamen, John Allerton and Thomas English."
The wording of this appears, in my opinion, simply to mean that the
first-named individuals (Standish, Carver, Bradford, Winslow, Tilleys,
and Howland) were connected with the Leiden group, which had come on
the "Speedwell" from Leiden to Southampton to join the "Mayflower"; as
opposed to the "London group" (individuals generally unaffiliated with
the Leiden church group) which boarded the "Mayflower" in London, and
then sailed to Southampton to meet up with the "Speedwell". I do not
believe the "of London" designation is necessarily an indication of
where he lived, but simply of where they had joined up with the
voyage. Stephen Hopkins, another in the "of London" list was
originally from Hursley, Hampshire; and my research indicates that
Edward Doty was likely from the East Halton area of Lincolnshire
(though nobody has managed to prove that one yet).
If you are intending to examine parish registers looking for Richard
Warren's children's baptisms, you may be interested to know that back
in 1996-1997 the "Mayflower Web Pages" sponsored a broad-sweeping
search of all London/Middlesex parish registers (baptisms and
marriages only, not burials) not then extracted into the I.G.I., in
the hopes of turning up clues on various Mayflower passengers thought
to have possibly come from the London/Middlesex area. The time period
searched was 1570-1620, whenever records were available in the parish
for this time period; the record searchers were instructed to look for
the surnames Soule, Warren, Allerton, Doty, and Hopkins, specifically
George Soule, Richard Warren and all his daughters (Mary, Ann, Sarah,
Elizabeth, Abigail), Isaac Allerton, Edward Doty, and Stephen Hopkins
(this was before Hopkins ancestry was discovered in Hampshire).
The parish registers that were searched were: All Hallows Barking,
All Hallows Lombard, Furnival's Inn, Lamb Chapel, Precinct of St.
Katherine, Precinct of Whitefriars, St. Alphage, St. Bartholomew the
Less, St. Benet Gracechurch, St. Dunstan in the West, St. George, St.
Katherine Coleman, St. Magnus the Martyr, St. Michael Crooked Lane,
St. Olave Silver Street, Serjeant's Inn, Staple Inn, Thavia's Inn, The
Temple, Acton, Cowley, Cranford, Ealing, Edmonton, Finchley, Great
Stanmore, Greenford, Hackney-St. Thomas, Hampstead St. John, Hampton,
Hanwell, Harefield, Harlington, Hayes, Heston, Hillingdon, Ickenham,
Isleworth-St. Mary, Laleham, Liberty of Glasshouse Yard, Liberty of
Saffron Hill, Liberty of the Tower, Monken Hadley, New Brentford,
Northolt, Old Artillery Ground, St. Mary le Strand, Shepperton,
Shoreditch-St. Leonards, South Mimms, Staines, Stratford le Bow-St.
Marys, Tottenham, Twickenham, Uxbridge, Wapping, West Drayton, and
Willesden.
The researchers hired to search these parish registers in
London/Middlesex did not locate any baptism records that could have
been the children of Richard Warren in any of these parishes. Since
these parishes have already been searched once for Warren entries (and
of course I cannot guarantee they were searched infalliably), you
might be able to more effectively use your research time looking
elsewhere.
In March 2000, Leslie Mahler extracted for me summaries of the Walker
and Warren wills of Hertfordshire. If you would like me to send you a
copy of the abstractions of all the Warren and Walker wills of
Hertford, drop me an e-mail and I'll get that off to you. The wills I
have abstracts for are George Warren, (1612, Stevenage), Henry Warren
(Harpenden, 1614), John Walker (North Mimms, 1618), Henry Warren
(Therfield, 1623), John Warren alias Waller (Ashwell 1624), Isabel
Warren (Aldenham, 1625), William Warren (Therfield, 1625), William
Warren (Therfield, 1629), John Warren (Kelshall, 1628), John Warren
(Therfield, 1631--no mention of a deceased son Richard or any
grandchildren in New England), Mary Warren (Ashwell, 1637), Michael
Warren (Tring, 1642), John Warren (Stevenage, 1651), John Walker
(Hemel Hempstead, 1662), and Thomas Walker (1665, Hemel Hempstead).
Good luck with your research, I hope to see your findings published
soon.
Caleb Johnson
Mayflower Web Pages
"Edward Davies" <edward...@guiseley94.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ati2sr$f1j$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Caleb Johnson
Ann, Richard, Jane (Twynn), and names son Edward the executor. This
appears to be the following family, baptized in Therfield, Hertford:
- Ann Warren, dau. John, bp. 8 September 1585
- Richard Warren, son John, bp. 9 November 1589
- Jane Warren, dau. John, bp. 22 July 1594; m. Robert Twynn 23 Jun
1617, Kelshall
- Edward Warren, son John, bp. 28 February 1597
Note that there are two or three Johns having children in Therfield
during this time period; this will, and the will of Henry Warren
(Therfield 1623), helps sort out who belongs to which John.
Now, the question is: Is Richard Warren bp. 9 November 1589 the
"Mayflower" passenger? The thing I found most interesting: If John
Warren of Kelshall had two surviving sons, why would the youngest be
named the executor? Could this perhaps indicate eldest son Richard
was not then present?
Edward Davies
news:6503eb30.03011...@posting.google.com...
> Edward,
>
> Congratulations on your Richard Warren findings, this is great news!
> I had been looking at the nearby Therfield, Hertfordshire Warrens for
> awhile and highly suspected the Elizabeth Walker marriage, but just
> couldn't find the missing link.
>
> I might suggest the Richard Warren baptized on 9 November 1589 at
> Therfield, son of John, could be the Mayflower passenger--this is the
> individual I was focusing on with Leslie Mahler a couple years ago
> when we were investingating this family; the Therfield Warrens are
> using almost all the names found amongst the Mayflower passengers
> children, and this particular Richard would have been 21 years old for
> a 1610 marriage. Therfield is very close to Baldock. The name
> Abigail occurs in the Walker family of Hertford.
This Richard Warren appears to have been a few years younger than Elizabeth
(Walker) Warren, though that does not rule out the possibility that he was
her husband. Given the information from the will of John Warren of Kelshall
in your other post, Richard seems to have still been living in the 1620s. It
might be helpful to know the wording of the part(s) of John's will which
mention(s) his son Richard.
> There has been a discussion as to Richard Warren being "of London".
> This comes from the 1622 publication "A Relation or Journal of the
> Proceedings of the Plantation Settled at New Plymouth..." The
> statement is "So ten of our men were appointed who were of themselves
> willing to undertake it, to wit, Captain Standish, Master Carver,
> William Bradford, Edward Winslow, John Tilley, Edward Tilley, John
> Howland, and three of London, Richard Warren, Stephen Hopkins, and
> Edward Doty, and two of our seamen, John Allerton and Thomas English."
>
> The wording of this appears, in my opinion, simply to mean that the
> first-named individuals (Standish, Carver, Bradford, Winslow, Tilleys,
> and Howland) were connected with the Leiden group, which had come on
> the "Speedwell" from Leiden to Southampton to join the "Mayflower"; as
> opposed to the "London group" (individuals generally unaffiliated with
> the Leiden church group) which boarded the "Mayflower" in London, and
> then sailed to Southampton to meet up with the "Speedwell". I do not
> believe the "of London" designation is necessarily an indication of
> where he lived, but simply of where they had joined up with the
> voyage. Stephen Hopkins, another in the "of London" list was
> originally from Hursley, Hampshire; and my research indicates that
> Edward Doty was likely from the East Halton area of Lincolnshire
> (though nobody has managed to prove that one yet).
That's an interesting point (though if Stephen Hopkins married Elizabeth
Fisher in the London area in 1617/18, and Edward Doty was Hopkins'
apprentice or servant, they could have been residents of London for some
time before the Mayflower left).
> If you are intending to examine parish registers looking for Richard
> Warren's children's baptisms, you may be interested to know that back
> in 1996-1997 the "Mayflower Web Pages" sponsored a broad-sweeping
> search of all London/Middlesex parish registers (baptisms and
> marriages only, not burials) not then extracted into the I.G.I., in
> the hopes of turning up clues on various Mayflower passengers thought
> to have possibly come from the London/Middlesex area. The time period
> searched was 1570-1620, whenever records were available in the parish
> for this time period; the record searchers were instructed to look for
> the surnames Soule, Warren, Allerton, Doty, and Hopkins, specifically
> George Soule, Richard Warren and all his daughters (Mary, Ann, Sarah,
> Elizabeth, Abigail), Isaac Allerton, Edward Doty, and Stephen Hopkins
> (this was before Hopkins ancestry was discovered in Hampshire).
>
> The parish registers that were searched were:
<snip>
>
> The researchers hired to search these parish registers in
> London/Middlesex did not locate any baptism records that could have
> been the children of Richard Warren in any of these parishes. Since
> these parishes have already been searched once for Warren entries (and
> of course I cannot guarantee they were searched infalliably), you
> might be able to more effectively use your research time looking
> elsewhere.
Thank you for the details of this search. I haven't yet seen any
particularly promising baptism entries which could relate to the children of
Richard Warren the Mayflower passenger. Ruth Berg Walsh's article "The
Search for Pilgrim Richard Warren's Parentage" in "The Mayflower Quarterly"
51:109-12 mentions the baptism of Elizabeth, daughter of "Richard Warren in
Rosemary Lane" at St. Botolph without Aldersgate in 1612/13, but if Richard
Warren of the Mayflower was the man who married Elizabeth Walker in 1610,
then that baptism is very unlikely to relate to his daughter Elizabeth, who
would have been born at a later date.
> In March 2000, Leslie Mahler extracted for me summaries of the Walker
> and Warren wills of Hertfordshire. If you would like me to send you a
> copy of the abstractions of all the Warren and Walker wills of
> Hertford, drop me an e-mail and I'll get that off to you. <snip>
[Received by e-mail with thanks.]
Edward Davies
The Hoorn
joe...@gmail.com
> It has been nearly 15 years since this topic was posted. Any updates on the origins of Richard Waaren?
Augustine's burial is noted as "Austen Wallkar of Amwell street an owld man." but I think this as identified by Davies at the same time as his original article.
Joe C