King's Kinsfolk: More on Fieschi Family of Genoa - Counts of Lavagna
Douglas Richardson
So far, I've identified four members of the Fieschi family of Genoa,
Italy who were called king's kinsfolk in contemporary medieval English
records:
1. Brumisan, wife of Ugolini di Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, styled
"kinswoman" by King Edward I of England [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera,
1 Pt. 1 (1816): 559].
2. Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi styled "kinsman" and "king's cousin" by
King Edward II of England [References: H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward
Prince of Wales 1304–1305 (1931): 54 (Luke de Fieschi styled
"kinsman"); Cal. Chancery Warrants 1244–1326 (1927): 388, 511
(instances of [Cardinal] Luca de Fieschi styled "king's cousin") (see
also J.E. Sayers, Law and Recs. in Medieval England (1988): Sec. 1:
116–117)].
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317-1321 (1903), pg. 10 indicates that
Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi was the uncle of Francesco, Count of
Lavagna. According to Frank Young's post dated 12 April 2001 (see
below), Cardinal Fieschi was also the kinsman of Jaime II, King of
Aragon.
3. Charles/Carlo di Fieschi styled "kinsman" by King Edward II of
England
[Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera 2 Pt. 1 (1818): 274].
4. Adrian di Fieschi styled styled "king's kinsman and clerk" by King
Edward II [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317–1321 (1903): 14].
There is an interesting article featuring Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi's
2nd cousin once removed, Manuel di Fieschi, which is found in the
journal, Speculum, 53 (1978): 522-544. The authors, G.P. Cuttino and
and T.W. Lyman, include an abbreviated pedigree of the Fieschi family
in an appendix on page 544. The pedigree shows that Cardinal Lucas di
Fieschi was the son of a Nicolo di Fieschi and the brother of
Charles/Carlo di Fieschi above. Brumisan, wife of Count Uggolino,
Adrian, and Count Francesco di Fieschi mentioned above don't appear in
this pedigree. The authors were clearly unaware that Brumisan,
Cardinal Lucas, and Adrian di Fieschi were called "kinsfolk" of the
English kings. They mention only that Charles/Carlo is addressed as
"consanguineo" (kinsman) by King Edward II. They likewise missed the
connection between the Fieschi family and King Jaime II of Aragon.
On the surface, it seems a good bet that these various Fieschi's in
England were related to Kings Edward I and Edward II through King
Edward I's mother, Eleanor of Provence, who has known Italian
ancestry. If the kinship to King Jaime II of Aragon is factored in,
it would seem certain that this branch of the Fieschi family is
descended somehow from Thomas I, Count of Savoy, who was Eleanor of
Provence's maternal grandfather. Kings Edward I and II of England and
King Jaime II of Aragon all share a common descent from Thomas I,
Count of Savoy.
If anyone has any particulars on the Fieschi family which would shed
further light on this family, I'd appreciate it if they would post
this information here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> [1] Frank Young - 'the Bibliographer', " Re: Fiesque ". SGM,
> 12 April 2001.
>
> [2] Same post:
> ' FIESCHI LUCA (+1336 genn. 31 - creato da Bonifacio
> VIII nel 1300 marzo 2); Consanguineo di Giacomo II re
> d'Aragona; Maria in Via Lata, 1300 marzo 2; Marcello, 1300
> giugno 18 in commenda; Cosma e Damiano, 1300 giugno 18 in
> amministrazione, il titolo nel 1306. '
Post a follow-up to this message
John Higgins
nephew of Pope Innocent IV. The sister of Adrian V (and aunt to Luca),
Beatrice, married Tommaso II of Savoy, and they were the parents of Amedeo V
of Savoy. There is a chart of the relationships of the Fieschi family in
George Williams' Papal Genealogy [1998].
So there was at least a relationship by marriage to the Savoy family. But
I've lost track of whether this counts under the ever-changing "Richardson
rules of kinsmanship". :-)
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
Reedpcgen
>Beatrice, married Tommaso II of Savoy, and they were the parents of Amedeo V
>of Savoy.
As Pope Adrian V (Ottobuono Fieschi) was a Fieschi by birth, any particularly
close descent from the Counts of Savoy could likely be ruled out, or the
marriage of his sister Beatrice to Thomaso II would have been forbidden.
Ottobuono Fieschi had been the papal legate sent to help both Henry III and
Edward I and had influenced Edward to take up the cross for Crusade.
The Fieschi had been allied with the Kings of Sicily. For Beatrice, you can
see Leo's site:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027334&tree=LEO
Paul
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my post earlier today, I've found additional
information on the Fieschi family on the following website:
http://www.cailigure.it/sportello/comuni/montebruno/montebruno.htm
According to the above website, Cardinal Luca di Fieschi had a sister,
Alagia. Luca and Alagia in turn were the children of Nicolò di
Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, who was brother of Pope Adrian V. Alagia
is stated to be the kinswoman ("cognata") of Opizzo d'Este.
The specific statement on the website reads as follows:
"La politica matrimoniale fiescana vide Moruello Malaspina avere in
sposa Alagia, filgia di Nicolò Fieschi, Conte Palatino e di Lavagna,
nipote di Adriano V, sorella di Luca Fieschi Cardinale e cognata di
Opizzo d'Este. Il Quattrocento porta Montebruno a subire le repentine
guerre e instabili periodi di pace a seguito delle operazioni
politiche della famiglia Fieschi e della Serenissima Repubblica di
Genova.
Il territorio viene interessato dalle mire di conquista da parte delle
famiglie Visconti e Sforza, ed i loro eserciti non mancarono di
effettuare cruente incursioni. Feudatari quali Simone de Novanton,
Stefanolo Porri, Pinotto Pinotti che già sul finire del Trecento
avevano avuto in affido parte dello spazio della Alta Val Trebbia, da
parte dei Visconti, non ebbero particolare rilevanza." END OF QUOTE.
It's interesting to see the Sforza family mentioned here. I've
learned elsewhere that Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan, was styled
"kinsman" by William Neville, Lord Fauconberge (died 1463) [Reference:
A.B. Hinds, Cal. State Papers & MSS. of Milan 1 (1912): 47–48]. Duke
Francesco was also styled "kinsman" by Lord Fauconberge's nephew,
Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick (died 1471) [Reference: A.B. Hinds,
Cal. State Papers & MSS. of Milan 1 (1912): 43–44]. The Nevilles
descend from Alice (or Alasia) di Saluzzo (died 1292), wife of Richard
Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel. Alice was a near kinswoman of Queen
Eleanor of Provence. Alice descends from Thomas I, Count of Savoy, as
do King Edward I and II of England and King Jaime II of Aragon,.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03090...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> So far, I've identified four members of the Fieschi family of Genoa,
> Italy who were called king's kinsfolk in contemporary medieval English
> records:
>
> 1. Brumisan, wife of Ugolini di Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, styled
> "kinswoman" by King Edward I of England [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera,
> 1 Pt. 1 (1816): 559].
>
> 2. Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi styled "kinsman" and "king's cousin" by
> King Edward II of England [References: H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward
> Prince of Wales 1304?1305 (1931): 54 (Luke de Fieschi styled
> "kinsman"); Cal. Chancery Warrants 1244?1326 (1927): 388, 511
> (instances of [Cardinal] Luca de Fieschi styled "king's cousin") (see
> also J.E. Sayers, Law and Recs. in Medieval England (1988): Sec. 1:
> 116?117)].
>
> Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317-1321 (1903), pg. 10 indicates that
> Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi was the uncle of Francesco, Count of
> Lavagna. According to Frank Young's post dated 12 April 2001 (see
> below), Cardinal Fieschi was also the kinsman of Jaime II, King of
> Aragon.
>
> 3. Charles/Carlo di Fieschi styled "kinsman" by King Edward II of
> England
> [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera 2 Pt. 1 (1818): 274].
>
> 4. Adrian di Fieschi styled styled "king's kinsman and clerk" by King
> Edward II [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317?1321 (1903): 14].
Douglas Richardson
Below are some sources listed for the Fieschi family. I don't believe
any of these titles are available here locally in Salt Lake City. I
notice one title below which specifically deals with the life history
of Cardinal Luca Fieschi. If anyone has access to these titles,
especially the one involving Cardinal Fieschi, I'd appreciate it if
they could check them for any helpful genealogical details of the
Fieschi family. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Local history bibliography
Home Page
Daccò George
The Maddalena di Lodi - History, art, faith , 2003. The book is in
sale in the bookcases of Praises
De Riccardo Rose
Luca Fieschi to the Court of Avignon. Private life and diplomatic
missions of a high preside of XIV the century , preface of G.
Pistarino. Fens Publisher, Florence, 1994
De Riccardo Rose
The Fieschi Principles. Accounts Tippets and celebrate counterfeiters
, preface of To August, Aktos Publisher, Carmagnola, 1995
De Riccardo Rose
History of Calestano , I struck Publisher, Parma, 1996
De Riccardo Rose
Conti di Lavagna and Calestano. Local Particolarismo and new
tendencies of being able communal , in the Historical Archives of the
Deputazione di Storia Native land for Ancient the Province Parmesans
(vol. XLIII, series YOU, 1992).
De Riccardo Rose
A wedding between Genoa and Reggio in XII the century , Historical
Bulletin Reggiano (fasc. 77, November 1992).
De Riccardo Rose
The Fieschi to Cremona. Riscoperta of one presence , in New,
Quarterly Province of the Province of Cremona (num. special, june
1992).
De Riccardo Rose
Bartolomeo Fieschi: a personage between reason and fantasy , in
Anthology of the From Liguria Cinquecentenario - Columbian, Tigullio
Editions, S. From Liguria daisy (GE), October 1992.
De Riccardo Rose
Carl Fieschi and Castiglione D' Adda. Lombardic a political
investitura nel' 400 , in the Historical Archives Lodigiano (to CXI,
1992).
De Riccardo Rose
Carl Fieschi and Castiglione D' Adda. The management of the feudo ,
in the Historical Archives Lodigiano (to CXII, 1993).
De Riccardo Rose
Short sketch of a minor. The Umanista Stefano Fieschi from Soncino ,
in Bergomum (to III, num. 3, July - september 1993).
De Riccardo Rose
The Farnesiane Papers of the Archives of State of Naples , in Courier
of Parma, Yearbook of culture of the Publishing House L. Battei (to
XI, num. 1, July 1993).
De Riccardo Rose
Ottobono Fieschi to Piacenza , in the Casana, Review of Culture of
the CariGe Bank, Genoa (to XXXV, you open them - september 1993).
De Riccardo Rose
Bonifacio Fieschi Archbishop of Ravenna , in Romagna Art and History
(to XIII, num. 38, May - August 1993).
Pierre Aronax
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:5cf47a19.03090...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> As a followup to my post earlier today, I've found additional
> information on the Fieschi family on the following website:
>
> http://www.cailigure.it/sportello/comuni/montebruno/montebruno.htm
>
> According to the above website, Cardinal Luca di Fieschi had a sister,
> Alagia. Luca and Alagia in turn were the children of Nicolò di
> Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, who was brother of Pope Adrian V. Alagia
> is stated to be the kinswoman ("cognata") of Opizzo d'Este.
Oh God... "cognata" does not mean "kinswoman" but sister-in-law!
> The specific statement on the website reads as follows:
>
> "La politica matrimoniale fiescana vide Moruello Malaspina avere in
> sposa Alagia, filgia di Nicolò Fieschi, Conte Palatino e di Lavagna,
> nipote di Adriano V, sorella di Luca Fieschi Cardinale e cognata di
> Opizzo d'Este. Il Quattrocento porta Montebruno a subire le repentine
> guerre e instabili periodi di pace a seguito delle operazioni
> politiche della famiglia Fieschi e della Serenissima Repubblica di
> Genova.
>
> Il territorio viene interessato dalle mire di conquista da parte delle
> famiglie Visconti e Sforza, ed i loro eserciti non mancarono di
> effettuare cruente incursioni. Feudatari quali Simone de Novanton,
> Stefanolo Porri, Pinotto Pinotti che già sul finire del Trecento
> avevano avuto in affido parte dello spazio della Alta Val Trebbia, da
> parte dei Visconti, non ebbero particolare rilevanza." END OF QUOTE.
>
> It's interesting to see the Sforza family mentioned here.
But this family is not mentioned here as having had any matrimonial relation
with the Fieschi, only has having invaded Montebruno's territory. What is it
supposed to have to do with genealogy? Or do you mean that because the
Sforza are "mentioned", there must be some mysterious genealogical
connection?
> I've
> learned elsewhere that Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan, was styled
> "kinsman" by William Neville, Lord Fauconberge (died 1463) [Reference:
> A.B. Hinds, Cal. State Papers & MSS. of Milan 1 (1912): 47-48]. Duke
> Francesco was also styled "kinsman" by Lord Fauconberge's nephew,
> Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick (died 1471) [Reference: A.B. Hinds,
> Cal. State Papers & MSS. of Milan 1 (1912): 43-44]. The Nevilles
> descend from Alice (or Alasia) di Saluzzo (died 1292), wife of Richard
> Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel. Alice was a near kinswoman of Queen
> Eleanor of Provence. Alice descends from Thomas I, Count of Savoy, as
> do King Edward I and II of England and King Jaime II of Aragon,.
Do you suggest that because people were calling each other "kinsman" in the
second half of the 15th century because one can conclude that they share an
ancestor in the 12th century? As you probably now, Francesco Sforza was an
homo novus, and an illegitimate son of Muzio Sforza, count of Codignola,
himself an homo novus of relatively modest background: it don't seem quite
probable that he was a descendant of the counts of Savoy by a obscure line
(but of course is wife was, and by a well known line: through her
great-grandmother Blanche of Savoy).
Pierre
Nathaniel Taylor
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:5cf47a19.03090...@posting.google.com...
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> > As a followup to my post earlier today, I've found additional
> > information on the Fieschi family on the following website:
> >
> > http://www.cailigure.it/sportello/comuni/montebruno/montebruno.htm
> >
> > According to the above website, Cardinal Luca di Fieschi had a sister,
> > Alagia. Luca and Alagia in turn were the children of Nicolò di
> > Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, who was brother of Pope Adrian V. Alagia
> > is stated to be the kinswoman ("cognata") of Opizzo d'Este.
>
> Oh God... "cognata" does not mean "kinswoman" but sister-in-law!
I haven't been following this thread, but was there not simultaneous
currency of the classical definition of cognatus/-a, both as adjective
and noun, to mean blood relation, while at the same time being used from
the Carolingian period forward for in-law (exclusively in the feminine?
this is how it's presented in Niermeyer)? In other words, does the more
general meaning drop out? Certainly 'cognati' is used for kin generally
throughout the Middle Ages.
This has long been puzzling to me, since, given the incest prohibition,
one's cognata (in-law) could NOT be numbered among one's cognati (kin).
Nat Taylor
Robert S Baxter
I have a chart of the di Fieschi family I've made from notes from
Gen-Medieval(thanks to those writers), Turton(I know he's
questionable), the Roglo site, Williams's book PAPAL GENEALOGY, and
GENEALOGIE MEDIOEVALI DI SARDEGNA by Brook and company.
I. Ugo di Fieschi
m Brumisan (di Grillo according to Turton). Is Brumisan a
hypochoristic
name? If so, of what? Brunisinde, Brunihilde santo? Turton gives
a
number of generations prior to Ugo.
A. Marghertia di Fieschi
B. Teodosio di Fieschi(b abt 1200)
m 1st Vigolan di Capo Corso
1. Beatrice di Fieschi (b abt 1230 d 1283)
m Thomas II de Savoie
m 2nd Simone della Volta
2. Frederico di Fieschi (d aft 1298)
a. Eleonora di Fieschi (b abt 1275 d abt 1337
m Bernabo Doria
b. Niccolo di Fieschi
i. Carlo di Fieschi
ii. Jacopina di Fieschi
iii. Cardinal Luca di Fieschi
iv. Alagia de Fieschi
c. Ottobono di Fieschi Pope Hadrian V
Is this Adrian di Fieschi?
C. Sinibaldo di Fieschi Pope Innocent IV
D. Cardinal Roberto di Fieschi
E. Agnese di Fieschi
F. Madelena di Fieschi
G. Opizzo di Fieschi
m Bianca dei Bianchi?
1. Nee di Fieschi
m Ruggiero II di Sanserverino
2. Argentina di Fieschi
m Corrado Spinola Captain of Genoa
Regards,
Bob Baxter
Francisco Antonio Doria
Two things:
1) There is a detailed genealogy in Battilana's book.
It's a good starting point.
I also believe that Andrea Dominici-Battelli will soon
post a genealogy of that family.
2) The title Conte di Lavagna was born by all male
members of the family.
chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu: > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below are some sources listed for the Fieschi
> family. I don't believe
> any of these titles are available here locally in
> Salt Lake City. I
> notice one title below which specifically deals with
> the life history
> of Cardinal Luca Fieschi. If anyone has access to
> these titles,
> especially the one involving Cardinal Fieschi, I'd
> appreciate it if
> they could check them for any helpful genealogical
> details of the
> Fieschi family. Thanks!
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City,
> Utah
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Local history bibliography
> Home Page
>
> Daccņ George
_______________________________________________________________________
Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e respostas que vai
dar um Renault Clio, computadores, cāmeras digitais, videogames e muito
mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
Francisco Antonio Doria
I'm descended from one of the pope's brothers. His
daughter Eliana Fieschi married Bernabņ Doria. This
line later fused with the line of the cosignori di
Oneglia, from which I come.
chico
--- Reedpcgen <reed...@aol.com> escreveu: > >The
_______________________________________________________________________
D. Spencer Hines
Cheers,
Spencer
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:2003091000313...@web41703.mail.yahoo.com...
Peter Stewart
This comment doesn't by any means invalidate Nat's point - but the
word "cognata" in the particular extract Pierre was writing about is
Italian, meaning "sister-in-law", rather than Latin that could very
well be elucidated (or not) by Niermeyer.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below are some sources listed for the Fieschi family. I don't believe
> any of these titles are available here locally in Salt Lake City. I
> notice one title below which specifically deals with the life history
> of Cardinal Luca Fieschi. If anyone has access to these titles,
> especially the one involving Cardinal Fieschi, I'd appreciate it if
> they could check them for any helpful genealogical details of the
> Fieschi family. Thanks!
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
Did you trouble to read through the drivel below before posting it? I
can only surmise that you had a crude translation program running over
a bibliography in Italian, which perhaps made sense in the original.
If you seriously expect anyone with access to the "titles" listed to
take some pains on your behalf, it would be the most basic courtesy to
give these accurately instead of tossing out your own hill-billy
version.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines
Has Richardson slipped his tether?
But let's not insult hillbillies....
This is a pure Richardson Original Gaffe [ROG]....
I still can't believe he thought Prince Charles is a descendant of King
Charles I.
PRATFALL!!!
Deus Vult.
"All America lies at the end of the wilderness road, and our past is not a
dead past, but still lives in us. Our forefathers had civilization inside
themselves, the wild outside.
We live in the civilization they created, but within us the wilderness still
lingers. What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream."
T. K. Whipple ---- "Study Out The Land"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:5054737e.03090...@posting.google.com...
Pierre Aronax
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathani...@earthlink.net> a écrit dans le message
de news:nathanieltaylor-58...@news06.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <3f5e4349$0$10898$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>,
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but was there not simultaneous
> currency of the classical definition of cognatus/-a, both as adjective
> and noun, to mean blood relation, while at the same time being used from
> the Carolingian period forward for in-law (exclusively in the feminine?
> this is how it's presented in Niermeyer)? In other words, does the more
> general meaning drop out? Certainly 'cognati' is used for kin generally
> throughout the Middle Ages.
In Latin and in the Middle Ages, certainly, and I said that myself in a
recent post. But NOT in Italian, the language in which was written the
website quoted by Douglas Richardson: here "cognata" is the feminine of
"cognato" not of "cognatus"! Better not to mix languages where same words
can have different or more/less specific meanings...
Pierre
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. I'm glad to see Turton has place
Brumisan, wife of Count Uggolino of Lavagna, into the pedigree. He
says she is a Grillo? If so, I wonder how that would make her related
to King Edward I of England?
Below are a variety of records which deal with various members of the
Fieschi family. These records confirm various aspects of the pedigree
you have presented. One Patent Roll item below indicates that
Cardinal Luca di Fieschi's grandfather, Sir Frederic di Fieschi, Count
of Lavagna, was king's knight to King Henry III of England in 1259.
Sir Frederick was the brother of Ottobuono, a papal legate, who I
believe later became Pope Adrian V. Pope Adrian V evidently also had
another brother, Percival di Lavagna, who is mentioned below. The
records likewise confirm that Cardinal Luca di Fieschi had two
brothers named Charles and Frederic, as well as several nephews. Many
other family members are named.
When you have the time, perhaps you could post a revised Fieschi
pedigree for us based on these new records.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - - - - - - -
1. J. Delaville le Roulx, Cartulaire Général de l'Ordre des
Hospitaliers de S. Jean de Jérusalem 2 (1897): 736-737. Charter dated
12 Sept. 1252. Le pape Innocent IV ratifie la vente, faite à Conrad,
comte de Lavagna, au diocèse de Genês, par Marin, commandeur de Genês,
d'une terre à Chiaveri, à charge de cens annuel. Wording of actual
charter commences: "[Innocentius, etc., dilecto filio] Scortio, nato
quondam Conradi, comitis de Lavania, Januensis diocesis, [salutem,
etc.] …"
2. J.E. Sayer, Original Papal Docs. in Eng. & Wales (1198–1304)
(1999): 244 ("13 June 1256. 538. Alexander (IV) <<carissimo in
Christo filio … illustri regi Anglie>>. Request to the king of
England to cause to be supplied to Aldebrand Aldebrandini and Reyner
Bonaccursi, merchants of Siena, …. 1057 marks, which they paid for the
business of Sicily to James, count of Lavagna, brother of the late
William (Fieschi). cardinal deacon of S. Eustace.")
3. Calendar of Patent Rolls (hereafter C.P.R.) 1258-1266 (1910): 60:
"7 Nov. 1259. "… to cause to be assigned to the king's knight
Frederic de Fisco, of the count of Lavagna, brother of the cardinal
Ottobon…"
4. C.P.R. 1258-1266 (1910): 624: "6 Aug. 1266. "Grant to Frederic,
brother of O. cardinal deacon of St. Adrian's, legate of the Apostolic
See…"
5. C.P.R. 1258-1266 (1910): 635: "3 Sept. 1266. "Request to O.
cardinal deacon of St. Adrian's, legate of the Apostolic See, to let
Frederic de Frisco, count of Lavagna, to whom the king is bound in 900
marks, … have the said sum out of the first moneys levied of the said
tenth of eccliastical benefices granted to the king by the pope."
6. C.P.R. 1258-1266 (1910): 676: "3 Sept. 1266. Notification by Maud
de Neville that she has bought from Sir Frederic de Firsco, count of
Lavagna, brother of O. cardinal deacon of St. Adrian's, the papal
legate, the wardship of the lands and heirs of Ralph son of Nicholas
sometime her husband …"
7. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): pg. 250. "5 Kal. Aug. 1248 [6
Innocent IV.]. Mandate to the abbot and convent of Glastonbury to
make provision of a benefice in their gift, value 100 marks, to
Boniface, archdeacon of Reggio, the pope's nephew and chaplain,
notwithstanding any papal indult or exemption."
8. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893):pg. 265. 6 Id. Nov. 1250 [8 Innocent
IV.]. Indult to Manuel, son of Bonvassallus de Sauro, citizen of
Genoa, the pope's kinsman, to hold the rectory of Kethering, and
accept other benefices, causing them to be served by vicars; he being
non-resident, and not in orders."
9. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): pg. 273 "2 Non. June 1251 [8
Innnocent IV.]. Mandate to Master Berard de Nimpha to give to Simon,
a scholar, son of Zachary de Castello, citizen of Genoa, a benefice of
the prior and convent of Worcester, worth 30 or 40 marks, papal
provision of the same having been made to Tedisius, canon of Beauvais,
son of Mazia, the pope's nephew."
10. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893):pg. 290. 6 Kal. June 1253 [11
Innocent IV.]. "Confirmation, with exemplification, to John de
Camezan, the pope's nephew and chaplain, and auditor of disputed papal
causes, of a pension of 18 marks, which the abbot and convent of St.
Augustine's, Canterbury, are bound to pay him or his proctor…").
11. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893):292. "8 Id. Mar. 1254 [11 Innocent
IV.]. Confirmation, with exemplification, to Albert Archilli, the
pope's nephew, rector of Hugate, in the diocese of York of the yearly
payment to by the abbot and convent of St. Mary's, York, for the said
church, of the sum of 125 marks …"
12. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): pg. 512 "10 Kal. May 1290 [2
Nicholas IV.]. Mandate to the archbishop of York to confer the chapel
or sacristy in his city held by the late Percival de Lavania, brother
of pope Adrian, who died at Rome, on some Englishman of legitimate
birth, either master of theology, doctor of canon or civil law, with
the obligation of residence. The like to the bishop of Lincoln
touching the archdeaconry of Buckingham and the canonry and prebend of
Lincoln, held by the late Percival de Lavania, but the prebend is to
be divided into two."
13. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): pg. 345 "2 Kal. April 1257 [3
Alexander IV.]. Dispensation, on petition of O. cardinal of St.
Adrian's, to William, son of Mussus, count of Lavania, to hold besides
the rectories of St. Mary in the Castle, Chester, and St. Wellis, in
the dioceses of Coventry and Exeter, one other benefice with cure of
souls."
14. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): pg. 524 "2 Id. Jan. 1291 [3
Nicholas IV.]. License to Master Thomas de Corbrighe, master of
theology, canon of York, to whom the archbishop of York, under papal
permission, gave the chapel or sacristy of York, void by the death of
Perceval de Lavania, brother of pope Adrian…"
15. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 135. "2 Non. Dec. 1316. To Hector
de Flisco. Provision, at the request of his uncle, Luke, cardinal of
St. Mary's in Via Lata, of a canonry of Salisbury, with reservation of
a prebend."
16. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 135. "2 Non. Dec. 1316. To
Luchines, son of Charles de Flisco, count Palatine and of Lavagna.
Provision, at the request of his uncle, Luke, cardinal of St. Mary's
in Via Lata, of a a canonry of Lincoln, with reservation of a
prebend."
17. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 186. "4 Id. May 1319. To
Innocent, son of the late Frederic de Flisco, count of Lavania.
Confirmation, at the request of cardinal Luke, of the canonry and
prebend of Salisbury void by the death of Gabiel de Camilla, and given
to him under papal faculty by the said cardinal."
18. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895):187. "4 Id. July 1319. To Manuel,
son of the late Andrew de Flisco, count of Lavania. Reservation, at
the request of Luchin, count of Lavania, of a benefice in the gift of
the bishop of Salisbury, value 30 marks."
19. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 241. "13 Kal. Dec. 1324. To John
son of Charles Fieschi (de Flisco) count Palatine and of Lavagna.
Provision, at the request of his uncle Luke, cardinal of St. Mary's in
Via Lata, of the canonry and prebend of Lincoln void by the
resignation of Luchinus de Flisco."
20. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 269. "9 Kal. Feb. 1328. To
Anthony, son of Charles de Flisco, count Palatine, and of Lavagna.
Provision of the canonry and prebend of Lincoln void by the
resignation of his brother John."
21. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 319. "4 Kal. Sept. 1330. To
Lazarinus, son of the late Gabriel de Flisco, count of Lavania.
Provision of a canonry of Lincoln, with reservation of a prebend."
22. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 341. "3 Non. May 1331. To Master
Manuel de Flisco, archdeacon of Nottingham, and two others named.
Mandate to assign Anthony, son of Charles de Flisco, count Palatine
and of Lavania, nephew of Luke, cardinal of St. Mary's in Via Lata, a
canonry and prebend of Toledo; notwithstanding that he has canonries
and prebens of Lincoln and Noyon."
Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 363. "2 Kal. Mar. 1332. To
Papinianus, son of the late Gabriel de Flisco. The like provision of
a canonry and prebend of Lincoln."
23. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): pg. 403. "4 Non. Aug. 1334. To
Innocent, son the late Frederic de Flisco, count Palatine, and of
Lavinia. Provision, at the request of his uncle Luke, cardinal of St.
Mary's in Via Lata, of the archdeaconry of Cleveland, in the church of
York, void by the resignation of Adrian de Flisco, notwithstanding
that he has a canonry and prebend of Salisbury.")
24. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 518. "8 Kal. July 1335. To
Anthony, son of the late Charles de Flisco, count Palatine and of
Lavania. Provision, at the request of Luke, cardinal of St. Mary's in
Via Lata, of a canonry of Lichfield, with reservation of a prebend;
notwithstanding that he has a canonry and prebend of Lincoln, and
other benefices out of England."
rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote in message news:<29e6e342.03090...@posting.google.com>...
Francisco Antonio Doria
...and in between a long line of sugarcane plantation
owners in the Brazilian hinterland, with minor
nobility titles and even less education...
--- "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spenc...@usa.yale.edu> escreveu: >
Robert S Baxter
Turton does not actually called her Brumisan, just unknown di Grillo. Sorry
I was misleading in my comment.s
Regards,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:13 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: More on Fieschi Family of Genoa - Counts
of Lavagna
Nathaniel Taylor
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathani...@earthlink.net> a écrit dans le message
> de news:nathanieltaylor-58...@news06.east.earthlink.net...
> > In article <3f5e4349$0$10898$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>,
> > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> <...>
>
> > I haven't been following this thread, but was there not simultaneous
> > currency of the classical definition of cognatus/-a, both as adjective
> > and noun, to mean blood relation, while at the same time being used from
> > the Carolingian period forward for in-law (exclusively in the feminine?
> > this is how it's presented in Niermeyer)? In other words, does the more
> > general meaning drop out? Certainly 'cognati' is used for kin generally
> > throughout the Middle Ages.
>
> In Latin and in the Middle Ages, certainly, and I said that myself in a
> recent post. But NOT in Italian, the language in which was written the
> website quoted by Douglas Richardson: here "cognata" is the feminine of
> "cognato" not of "cognatus"! Better not to mix languages where same words
> can have different or more/less specific meanings...
Mea culpa! I did not follow the citation in Richardson's original post,
and wrongly assumed it was Latin, so I was puzzled by your emphatic
correction. But I stand corrected!
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
I didn't write that!
Why would I insult you that way?
Answer:
I did not.
Aloha,
Spencer
Deus Vult.
"All America lies at the end of the wilderness road, and our past is not a
dead past, but still lives in us. Our forefathers had civilization inside
themselves, the wild outside.
We live in the civilization they created, but within us the wilderness still
lingers. What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream."
T. K. Whipple ---- "Study Out The Land"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:2003091010105...@web41707.mail.yahoo.com...
|
| ...and in between a long line of sugarcane plantation
| owners in the Brazilian hinterland, with minor
| nobility titles and even less education...
|
| --- "D. Spencer Hines"
| <D._Spenc...@usa.yale.edu> escreveu: >
| Fascinating, Chico!
| >
| > Cheers,
| >
| > Spencer
| >
| > "Francisco Antonio Doria"
| > <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
| > message
| >
| news:2003091000313...@web41703.mail.yahoo.com...
| > |
| > | I'm descended from one of the pope's brothers. His
| > | daughter Eliana Fieschi married Bernabò Doria.
Douglas Richardson
> "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:5cf47a19.03090...@posting.google.com...
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> > As a followup to my post earlier today, I've found additional
> > information on the Fieschi family on the following website:
> >
> > http://www.cailigure.it/sportello/comuni/montebruno/montebruno.htm
> >
> > According to the above website, Cardinal Luca di Fieschi had a sister,
> > Alagia. Luca and Alagia in turn were the children of Nicolò di
> > Fieschi, Count of Lavagna, who was brother of Pope Adrian V. Alagia
> > is stated to be the kinswoman ("cognata") of Opizzo d'Este.
>
> Oh God... "cognata" does not mean "kinswoman" but sister-in-law!
>
MEA CULPA! Thank you for this correction.
Francisco Antonio Doria
In my family education begins in the early 19th century, when my 3gfather José da Costa Doria is called a 'professor´ in an official document. Then things really begin to improve: his son my ggfather received an M.D. in 1869 and so on.
No, Spencer, you never insulted me. My ancestors during colonial times in Brazil were very poorly educated.
chico
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spenc...@usa.yale.edu> wrote:Chico,
I didn't write that!
Why would I insult you that way?
Answer:
I did not.
Aloha,
Spencer
Deus Vult.
"All America lies at the end of the wilderness road, and our past is not a
dead past, but still lives in us. Our forefathers had civilization inside
themselves, the wild outside.
We live in the civilization they created, but within us the wilderness still
lingers. What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream."
T. K. Whipple ---- "Study Out The Land"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Francisco Antonio Doria" wrote in
message news:2003091010105...@web41707.mail.yahoo.com...
|
| ...and in between a long line of sugarcane plantation
| owners in the Brazilian hinterland, with minor
| nobility titles and even less education...
|
| --- "D. Spencer Hines"
| escreveu: >
| Fascinating, Chico!
| >
| > Cheers,
| >
| > Spencer
| >
| > "Francisco Antonio Doria"
| > wrote in
| > message
| >
| news:2003091000313...@web41703.mail.yahoo.com...
| > |
| > | I'm descended from one of the pope's brothers. His
| > | daughter Eliana Fieschi married Bernabò Doria.
| > This
| > | line later fused with the line of the cosignori di
| > | Oneglia, from which I come.
| > |
| > | chico
| > |
| > | --- Reedpcgen escreveu: >
---------------------------------
Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e respostas que vai dar
1 Renault Clio, computadores, câmeras digitais, videogames e muito mais!
D. Spencer Hines
The way you had posted it some careless readers might well think I had written
it.
I honor and respect ALL your ancestors ---- not just the brothers of Popes...
Because they produced YOU ---- and that's a job well done.
Cheers,
Spencer
Deus Vult.
"All America lies at the end of the wilderness road, and our past is not a
dead past, but still lives in us. Our forefathers had civilization inside
themselves, the wild outside.
We live in the civilization they created, but within us the wilderness still
lingers. What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream."
T. K. Whipple ---- "Study Out The Land"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:2003091021115...@web41708.mail.yahoo.com...
Douglas Richardson
It's great to know that one of our esteemed newsgroup members such as
yourself is a descendant of the prestigious Fieschi family of Genoa.
I'm so glad that my research on the Fieschi family connects to your
Doria ancestry.
When you have a moment, perhaps you could share with us a brief
outline of the information you have on the ancestry of the Fieschi
family. Do you have any idea how your ancestress, Eliana Fieschi's
nephew, Cardinal Lucas Fieschi, is related to King Edward II of
England and King Jaime II of Aragon? Also, can you identity Brumisan,
wife of Uggolino, Count of Lavagna, who was called kinswoman by King
Edward I of England.
It appears a distinct possibility that Cardinal Lucas Fieschi was
related to the various kings in question, not on his father's side,
but through his mother's side. I say that because as best as I can
tell, neither Cardinal Lucas' paternal grandfather, Sir Frederic
Fieschi, nor his great uncle, Ottobuono, the Papal legate (later Pope
Adrian V), were styled king's kinsman by King Henry III of England.
In general, King Henry III was fairly dutiful to acknowledge kinship
to his foreign relatives. [Note to all: This is an observation, not a
rule]. By any chance, do you know anything about the wife of Cardinal
Lucas's father, Nicolo Fieschi? She would seem to be the doorway
ancestress to the high born ancestry behind Cardinal Lucas and his
brother, Carlo/Charles, both of whom were styled "king's kinsman."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<2003091000313...@web41703.mail.yahoo.com>...
Pierre Aronax
You are welcome.
What about the next part of my post and your hypothesis on Francesco
Sforza's ancestry?
Pierre
Reedpcgen
Federici, La famiglia di Fiesco. The descent is (charts 193 and 211):
1. Roboaldo, Count of Lavagna
2. Theodesius, Count of Lavagna
3. Roboaldo, Count of Lavagna
4. Alberto, Count of Lavagna
5. Ruffinus, Count of Lavagna
6. UGO di Fiesco, Count of Lavagna, married the daughter of Amico di Grillo
7. Obizo di Fiesco
8. A daughter who married Rogerio (son of Tommaso di S. Severino, C. of
Marisco).
9. Tommaso di S. Sevriono, m. Isnarda Agaldo
10. Enrico di S. Sevrino, m. Hilaria di Loria
11. Rogerio di S. Severino, C. of Lieto, m. Marquise de Baux, possibly parents
of
12. Jeanne di S. Severino
13. Marguerite d'Enghien, m. Jean de Luxemburg
14. Pierre de Luxemburg, C. of St. Poll, m. Marguierite de Baux
15. Jacqueline [Jacquette] de Luxemburg, married Richard Wydville, 1st Earl
Rivers.
16. Elizabeth Wudville, m. Edward IV, King of England.
Of course, Turton is only as accurate as the source and his assumptions. ES
gives no. 12 Jeanne/Giovanna as daughter of Antonio Sanseverino, Conte di
Marsico.
Paul
Peter Stewart
> It's gibberish indeed, Peter.
>
> Has Richardson slipped his tether?
>
> But let's not insult hillbillies....
>
> This is a pure Richardson Original Gaffe [ROG]....
Indeed, Spencer - my apologies to any & all hillfolk.
Douglas Richardson was perhaps trained in the Jethro Clampett School
of History & Genealogy, but if so he has not yet had the happiness to
excel his teacher in learning, sense or sensibility.
Peter Stewart
Robert S Baxter
Fieschi.
Thanks to Paul Reed for posting the line from Turton and to others on
this list who have posted information on this family, especially
Douglas Richardson. Some of my original placements were incorrect
because of problems following the visual cues of my notes. In
addition to other sources listed in my previous post, I also just
looked a Leo's site, which helped my realize the error I had made.
I. Ugo di Fieschi
m Brumisan (from Douglas's post) ( unknown di Grillo according to
Turton,
dtr of Amico di Grillo) Is Brumisan hypochoristic name of some
sort?
A. Marghertia di Fieschi
B. Teodosio di Fieschi(b abt 1200)
m 1st Vigolan di Capo Corso
1. Beatrice di Fieschi (b abt 1230 d 1283)
m Thomas II de Savoie
m 2nd Simone della Volta
2. Frederico di Fieschi (d aft 1298)
a. Eleonora di Fieschi (b abt 1275 d abt 1337
m Bernabo Doria
b. Innocent di Fieschi
3. Niccolo di Fieschi
a. Carlo di Fieschi
i. Luchino di Fieschi
ii. John di Fieschi
iii. Anthony di Fieschi
iv. Hector di Fieschi
b. Jacopina di Fieschi
c. Cardinal Luca di Fieschi
d. Alagia de Fieschi
4. Ottobono di Fieschi Pope Hadrian V
Before he was pope, he was Cardinal Deacon of St. Adrian's.
Is he also called Adrian di Fieschi or is that another
person?
5. Percival di Fieschi
6. Unnamed female di Fieschi m a Archilli
a. Albert Archilli Rector of Hugate(Hungate?)
7. Muzio di Fieschi
Does he belong here?
a. William di Fieschi
b. James di Fieschi
8. Mazia di Fieschi m. ?
a. Tedisio Canon of Beauvais
C. Sinibaldo di Fieschi Pope Innocent IV
D. Cardinal Roberto di Fieschi
E. Agnese di Fieschi
F. Madelena di Fieschi
G. Opizzo di Fieschi
m Bianca dei Bianchi? Does he belong here?
1. Nee di Fieschi
m Ruggiero II di Sanserverino
2. Argentina di Fieschi
m Corrado Spinola Captain of Genoa
I have names I cannot place who evidently nephews of popes and
cardinals in the family.
Adrian di Fieschi.
Gabriel di Fieschi father of Papinianus and Lazarus di Fieschi.
Andrew di Fieschi father of Manuel di Fieschi.
Conrad aka Scortius di Fieschi.
John de Camezan, another of the Pope Adrian's numerous nephews for
whom he provided benifices.
I am amazed at the wealth of benifices in the English Church at the
Pope's disposal in providing an income for members of his family. I
think it helps explain the English Reformation.
Regards,
Bob
Robert S Baxter
Not only can I not follow visual cues, I can't spell also. "Benifice"
should be "benefice"
Bob
Leo van de Pas
I compared this list with Battilana and it does not look healthy. Never mind
the different spellings of first names, nr. 4. Alberto, according to
Battilana, had only one son, Tebaldo, and there that line ends.
However, all is not lost. Alberto's brother, Tedisio, seems to be the father
of Ugo, nr. 6 in Turton's list. Ugo's son, Opizzone (nr.7 Obizo) is also the
father of an unnamed daughter married to Roggiero Sanservino.
Still I think we are straying of the original request, is Cardinal Luca
(mentioned 1298, 1313) descended from the Savoie family? It doesn't look
like it. His mother is mentioned only as Lionetta, died in 1310.
1.Cardinal Luca
2.Niccolo
3.Lionetta
4.Tedisio
5.Simone De Volta (widow by 1255)
6.?
7.?
8.Ugo
9.?
16.Tedisio
17.?
32.Robaldo
33.?
Hope this helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: More on Fieschi Family of Genoa - Counts of
Lavagna
Reedpcgen
I should have perhaps stressed I thought the material in Turton was very dated
and should not be trusted except where substantiated by other sources.
Also, as far as calling someone a 'kinsman,' I don't think that in every single
case someone was referred to as 'kinsman' it meant that there was a blood
connection known every step of the way by those involved in the document.
Where exact steps are not known, some errors might occur, such as the
relationship at some stage being by marriage, rather than direct ancestor.
This scenario might especially be the case where important political favors
were desired, such as favor from papal legates and Popes.
Paul
ptr...@cox.net
My dear Douglas,
Congratulations! You're beginning your treatment. However, you
should be aware of some risks in admitting error: (1) insincerity; and
(2) over statement or exaggeration.
Some time ago I said that I would no longer indulge in pedagogy; but
at the risk on going back on my word, I would give you counsel. Since
we would not suggest that you are a hypocrit, we should examine
whether your admission is an over statement or exaggeration.
Error can be of two types: (1) innocent mistake or (2) error of
purpose, judgement, calculation, and the like.
The former, innocent mistake, such as mistranslating a word from a
language that you can't read, as in the present case, or misspelling,
as was the case with that battle ('Bovines' ?), are not faults.
Simple admissions are sufficient.
The latter, error of the type which rises to fault, is more serious
and, when admission of error is attempted (much like confession of
sin), some sort of apology is in order. This type of admission is more
difficult. We could offer a few examples of such an error; but that,
for me, might not be in good taste or bedside manner at this time (or
my pledge of nonpedagogy). Others of the newsgroup might not be so
bound.
Clearly, unless you are guilty of insincerity, your "MEA CULPA" was a
simple over statement. An admission, without fault, is sufficient.
You could, however, explain that you are attempting to work with a
language that you do not understand.
You should be commended with respect to your constant struggle with
languages. Others with your experiences would have given up.
Persistence is one of your hallmarks. I'm sure that you'll progress to
a level of fluency in at least one of them. Becoming a historian is
another matter; that takes a life time of dedicated study, for which
there is no training.
Again, if you need assistance, I'm sure that there are many who are
willing to offer it.
Best wishes,
and happy results in all your pursuits,
Richard Smith
D. Spencer Hines
Gaffe when he said Prince Charles was a descendant of King Charles I.
That's his WORST Gaffe Of The Week....
Qualified Genealogist & Historian?
It Is To Laugh....
Deus Vult.
"All America lies at the end of the wilderness road, and our past is not a
dead past, but still lives in us. Our forefathers had civilization inside
themselves, the wild outside.
We live in the civilization they created, but within us the wilderness still
lingers. What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream."
T. K. Whipple ---- "Study Out The Land"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
<ptr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:2601f28f.03091...@posting.google.com...
Al Magary
intolerably nasty behavior of some listmembers. I decided to
resubscribe this afternoon. I am still appalled. The amount of
factual material--names, dates, etc.--is extensive and the
quality appears high, but this is accompanied by continuing
venomous exchanges. After a few hours now, I find this still
repellent. This is the only list of some 15 that I subscribe or
have subscribed to that has a culture that tolerates or even
encourages such poisonous communication.
Seeking civilized behavior on the Internet,
Sincerely,
Al Magary
Peter Stewart
reed...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) wrote in message news:<20030910185946...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
> Just for the record, Turton gives as sole source for the descent: 1691, F.
> Federici, La famiglia di Fiesco. The descent is (charts 193 and 211):
>
> 1. Roboaldo, Count of Lavagna
> 2. Theodesius, Count of Lavagna
> 3. Roboaldo, Count of Lavagna
> 4. Alberto, Count of Lavagna
> 5. Ruffinus, Count of Lavagna
> 6. UGO di Fiesco, Count of Lavagna, married the daughter of Amico di Grillo
> 7. Obizo di Fiesco
> 8. A daughter who married Rogerio (son of Tommaso di S. Severino, C. of
> Marisco).
Turton's source goes wrong here, if not earlier: this Rogerio di
Sanseverino was himself also count of Marsico (born ca 1236/7, died
after 24 September 1284). His first wife was from the family of the
counts of Lavagna, a niece of Pope Innocent IV, but his son Tommaso
below was probably from a second marriage. His mother is believed to
be Teodora (died 1318), daughter of Landolfo d'Aquino, signore of
Roccaseca.
> 9. Tommaso di S. Sevriono, m. Isnarda Agaldo
Tommaso's first marriage (or maybe just betrothal) was to Isnarde (or
Isolda), daughter of Amiel d'Agoult (di Agaldo), signore of Corbano;
but this was evidently a political fix that may or may not have
eventuated - at any rate, she was not the mother of his son Enrico
below. He was born from a marriage that took place in 1271, to
Marguerite, daughter of Henri I, count of Vaudémont & Ariano (after
whom he was named) & Marguerite de la Roche.
> 10. Enrico di S. Sevrino, m. Hilaria di Loria
There was some discussion here a few years ago about Enrico and his
wife, especially whether she was named Ilaria or Maria. This should
come up under "Lauria" in the archive for (I think) 1999 or
thereabouts.
> 11. Rogerio di S. Severino, C. of Lieto, m. Marquise de Baux, possibly parents
> of
Not likely - this Rogerio was count of Mileto, chamberlain & marshal
of Sicily. His second wife was Marchisia (Marquise), daughter of
Guilhem des Baux, seigneur of Sérignan & Marchisia Albaron. By her he
had only two known daughters, Catarina (wife of Giacomo di Marzano,
count of Squillace) and Agnese (wife of Francesco de la Rath, count of
Caserta).
> 12. Jeanne di S. Severino
She is more persuasively given as a daughter of Antonio di
Sanseverino, count of Marsico & constable of Sicily (died 1382/4) by
Isabella, daughter of Bertran des Baux, count of Andria & Marguerite
d'Aulnay (di Alneto), signora of Teano. However, this is not proven. I
understand that a promising lead on her origins is being followed at
present by the leading English expert in the field.
The main source for the information above is 'Une famille de
l'aristocratie napolitaine sous les souverains angevins: les
Sanseverino (1270—1420)' by Sylvie Pollastri, _Mélanges de l'École
Française de Rome (Moyen Âge)_ 103 (1991).
Peter Stewart
Andy.3rd
>repellent. This is the only list of some 15 that I subscribe or
>have subscribed to that has a culture that tolerates or even
>encourages such poisonous communication.
>
>Seeking civilized behavior on the Internet,
>Sincerely,
>Al Magary
>
If you think this list is bad then you *obviously* haven't visited
alt.gossip.royalty!
WARNING TO NEW READERS: The poster known as Karen Martin has shown herself to
be grossly misinformed and unreliable concerning Royal matters. She also
pretends to be current on things British and to know more than people who live
there. Be Wary.
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for the revision of the Fieschi pedigree. Much appreciated.
The pedgree is really starting to take shape and form.
Below is the record of Andrew de Lavania, who is another member of the
Fieschi family mentioned in English records. The item below
identifies Andrew as the nephew of Cardinal Ottobono. I presume
Cardinal Ottobono is the same individual as became Pope Adrian V.
Public Record Office
C 47/14/1/6
Date: 47 Henry III
Dedimus potestatem to bishop of Rochester and others to receive the
attornies appointed by Andrew de Lavania, nephew of Cardinal Ottobono,
in the suit concerning land in Preston, Devon, in which Andrew is
defendant.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote in message news:<29e6e342.03091...@posting.google.com>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> I dropped off this list a couple years ago because the
> intolerably nasty behavior of some listmembers. I decided to
> resubscribe this afternoon. I am still appalled. The amount of
> factual material--names, dates, etc.--is extensive and the
> quality appears high, but this is accompanied by continuing
> venomous exchanges. After a few hours now, I find this still
> repellent. This is the only list of some 15 that I subscribe or
> have subscribed to that has a culture that tolerates or even
> encourages such poisonous communication.
I have noticed that the worst stuff is cross-posted to Another
Newsgroup, so I have set up filters that divert or delete such
cross-postings unread. Cross-posting is Evil!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Francisco Antonio Doria
A few corrections.
--- Robert S Baxter <rsba...@bellsouth.net>
escreveu: > Here is another attempt to post a fuller
list of
> descendants of Ugo di
> Fieschi.
> Thanks to Paul Reed for posting the line from Turton
> and to others on
> this list who have posted information on this
> family, especially
> Douglas Richardson. Some of my original placements
> were incorrect
> because of problems following the visual cues of my
> notes. In
> addition to other sources listed in my previous
> post, I also just
> looked a Leo's site, which helped my realize the
> error I had made.
>
>
> I. Ugo di Fieschi
The son of Tedisio (att. 1154, 1184), gson of Rubaldo
Fiesco att. 1128-1166, ggson of Tedisio Fiesco dec.
1128, gggson of Rubaldo Fiesco, att. 1060, capostipite
of the family. (Battilana, tav. 1)
> m Brumisan (from Douglas's post) ( unknown di
> Grillo according to
> Turton,
> dtr of Amico di Grillo) Is Brumisan
> hypochoristic name of some
> sort?
>
> A. Marghertia di Fieschi
> B. Teodosio di Fieschi(b abt 1200)
> m 1st Vigolan di Capo Corso
Battilana only mentions the della Volta marriage. Name
in Genoa is Tedisio.
>
> 1. Beatrice di Fieschi (b abt 1230 d 1283)
> m Thomas II de Savoie
>
> m 2nd Simone della Volta
>
> 2. Frederico di Fieschi (d aft 1298)
Federico.
>
> a. Eleonora di Fieschi (b abt 1275 d abt
> 1337
Eliana.
_______________________________________________________________________
Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e respostas que vai
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Francisco Antonio Doria
Dear Doug,
Let me check what Battilana has to say (if anything)
on these people, and I'll come back to you and to the
group.
A minor correction, if you allow me: there are
millions of people in this country of mine who can
trace their ancestry back to the Fieschi family. For
example: a well-known `gateway' ancestor in Brazil is
Hierônimo Dornellas de Meneses, who settled in the
Brazilian south around 1730 and then started to people
the land (I'm descended from him on my mother's side).
He is descended from the Fieschi through the Dorias in
the Madeira.
Best, chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu: > Dear Chico ~
> > daughter Eliana Fieschi married Bernabò Doria.
> > dar um Renault Clio, computadores, câmeras
> digitais, videogames e muito
> > mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e respostas que vai
dar um Renault Clio, computadores, câmeras digitais, videogames e muito
mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
Francisco Antonio Doria
My fault, Spencer, not yours. Most of those people's
perched up there in my family tree, even if Popes and
cardinals, were no better than Hobsbawm's bandits -
and behaved in a similar way, e.g. Branca Doria and
his son Bernabò Doria.
Thanks for your words; all the best, chico
--- "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spenc...@usa.yale.edu> escreveu: > Thank you
_______________________________________________________________________
Kay Allen AG
Medieval genealogy is a tad different from the ordinary studies of
genealogy, as to be really good at it, you need to have had some really
excellent specialized training.
This list is also different from your ordinary lists. The membership
ranges from those who
have an interest in or a passion for medieval genealogy, but who
couldn't congugate a Latin Verb to gain egress from a paper bag or read
a will from 1452 England to those who
have a professional interest in genealogy of this sort to those whose
interest has carried them to the fields of Academe. The latter two
catagories have interesting egos and can, on occasion, become somewhat
combative. This can become tiresome at times.
So, start utilizing your delete key. This list is well worth the effort.
By the way, some other more mundanish lists can be occasionally
explosive when somebody posts junk genealogy and someone else exposes
it, especially if the first party tries to defend it. Sound familiar?
Kay Allen AG
K McGee
It is extremely difficult to even guess who the accurate poster could be on
this list.
It is particularly difficult when one is, like I am, a person "who couldn't
congugate a Latin Verb to gain egress from a paper bag," write a coherent
sentence let alone an appropriate query, or/and is a person who only wants
to find out if their own compilation of data is a huge bunch of garbage.
I am not a medieval junkie. I just seem to be a misfortunate, apparently
descending from ancestors who belong to the group in which you all have
passionate interests.
How do I, illiterate on medieval things of all sorts, judge you all and
your postings? Subscribing to the list didn't bring any more light than I
had experienced as I tried to sort out the junk from the possibles within
the archived material.
K McGee
At 09:18 AM 9/11/2003 -0700, Kay Allen AG wrote:
>Dear Mr. Magary,
>. . . professional interest in genealogy of this sort to those whose
>interest has carried them to the fields of Academe. The latter two
>catagories have interesting egos and can, on occasion, become somewhat
>combative. This can become tiresome at times.
<snip>
>Kay Allen AG
>
>Al Magary wrote:
>
Kay Allen AG
who documents
the material presented and who doesn't. You will also begin to understand the
personalities
and the effect on scholarship and presentation.
You may not be able to conjugate said verbs, but you seem to be reasonably
intelligent; you admit that you don't know, therefore you are teachable. :-)
So just hang in. It will reveal itself.
K
Francisco Antonio Doria
Doug, I just saw a Sanseverino-Fieschi marriage in the
Dominici-Battelli/Shamà site. Have you looked at it?
chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu:
---------------------------------
Dear Chico ~
I find your connection to the Fieschi family very
interesting indeed. I was also surprised to learn
that Queen Elizabeth Wydeville of England is descended
from the Fieschi family.
I understand that the registers of Pope Innocent IV
are in print. The editor's name is Berger. Do you
have access to this work, by any chance. The
registers should shed more light on his near
relatives. Also, it should indicate whether or not
he was related to the Counts of Savoy.
My present working theory is that Cardinal Lucas
Fieschi and his brother, Carlo, are related to the
Counts of Savoy through their mother. If correct,
then their uncle, Pope Innocent IV, would have no
kinship to the Counts of Savoy.
DR
>From: Francisco Antonio Doria
>To: Douglas Richardson , GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: More on Fieschi Family
of Genoa - Counts of Lavagna
>Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:00:48 -0300 (ART)
>
>
>Dear Doug,
>
>Let me check what Battilana has to say (if anything)
>on these people, and I'll come back to you and to the
>group.
>
>A minor correction, if you allow me: there are
>millions of people in this country of mine who can
>trace their ancestry back to the Fieschi family. For
>example: a well-known `gateway' ancestor in Brazil is
>Hierônimo Dornellas de Meneses, who settled in the
>Brazilian south around 1730 and then started to
people
>the land (I'm descended from him on my mother's
side).
>He is descended from the Fieschi through the Dorias
in
>the Madeira.
>
>Best, chico
>
> --- Douglas Richardson
> > > --- Reedpcgen escreveu: >
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>_______________________________________________________________________
> > > Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas
e
> > respostas que vai
> > > dar um Renault Clio, computadores, câmeras
> > digitais, videogames e muito
> > > mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
> >
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e
respostas que vai
>dar um Renault Clio, computadores, câmeras digitais,
videogames e muito
>mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
---------------------------------
Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra
Storage.
KHF...@aol.com
SOMEONE wrote:
> I find this still repellent. This is the only list of some 15 that I
> subscribe or have subscribed to that has a culture that tolerates or even
> encourages such poisonous communication
>
This list is repellent, of course. I have not read for many months now and I
feel much the better for ignoring it. True, some interesting and valuable
materials have been discussed, but this is best done by professional historians
for professional historians. The average person would be better off becoming
fluent in problems of a current nature where they can spend their time actually
making a mark on the world about them by working for the betterment of the
world around them than wasting
their precious lifetimes arguing about the details of those long dead and
often best forgotten as nature intended. Only the restless minds of restless
people who like to withdraw from the world's reality is concerned with such
things. The actual birthdate or the name of some long forgotten spouse of some
secondary medieval person has very little relevance to the world in which we
actually live. The dedicated pursuit of such details by any other than dedicated
scholars with vast knowledge of historical processes are simply a self-indulgent
attempts at one-upmanship. How much better off the world would be if one's
time were better spent in volunteer work that actually means something instead of
trying to impress the unimpressable with data that means nothing to the
long-term survival and benefit of the human condition.
Thus, forums like this draw the socially challenged who do not know how to
behave, many of whom have given up on making a difference in the real world.
Although it is wonderful to find a personal connection to the ancient past, too
often it becomes a perverted attempt to establish a feeling of personal self
worth by a hereditary connection to world makers and world shakers, replacing
the honest responsibility of becoming a world maker and a world shaker in our
own personal lives. The unhealthy pride in a descent from the famous and the
rich often replaces the more reasonable desire to become well respected in our
own communities by doing deeds that are beneficial to our personal families and
communities.
The study of history and the sub-study of genealogy in history, is, of course
a civilized study that is necessary for a well-rounded view of the world.
But that is not what is happening here on this forum. What is happening is the
equivalent of arguing about how many angels can fit in the head of a pin --
useless poison pens messages from disenchanted souls arguing about things that
cannot possibly make a difference.
The truth is never easy and often hard to bear. If only one person decides to
quit wasting their time reading the rubbish on this forum and goes on to
throw a free Thanksgiving feast for the unemployed in their community, then this
is worth the writing.
- Kenneth Harper Finton
B.M. Kamp
Pope Innocentius IV died in 1254.
His nephew Pope Hadrianus V was elected in 1276 and died five
weeks later (according to my Lexicon der Päbste as an old man).
Brumisan was the mother of Innocentius IV and the grandmother of
Hadrianus V. It seems impossible that she was still alive in 1272, when
Edward I ascended he throne.
So if Edward referred to her as his kinswoman it must have been well
after her death. It would be interesting to know the date and the
contents of the text concerned. It seems to me she cannot be related
to Edward I within the famous fifth degree, counting from Edward. The
only relationship I can imagine is that if the Pope were Edward's Holy
Father, the Pope's mother was in a way his grandmother.
The information on he Fieschi family is interesting. Is the identity of the
wife of Federico Fieschi (father of Eliana x Bernabo Doria) unknown?
Regards to all,
Bert M. Kamp
Al Magary
issue with some of Kenneth Finton's points. People may put to
many uses pieces of knowledge, some no doubt trivial in the eyes
of others. Be that as it may, I think it is the primary duty of
genealogists, historians, and all researchers and scholars to
establish the factual basis of as much of the past as is
possible. (The unprovable, implausible, and impossible are left
to novelists.)
My project is a new edition of Hall's Chronicle (1550), which
covers 1399-1547. It has a good amount of military and
diplomatic activity in France and the low countries. Typical of
the kind of detail that I want to annotate: In 1522, in
Picardy/Flanders "there met with tharmy of England two
capitaines of the Burgonions, the one called therle of Egremond
the Seneschal of Henaude, and the lorde of Bauers Admyral of
Flaunders with .v.C. horsemen, like men of warre."
As one can see, penetrating Hall's orthography is a challenge in
itself, and my notes should at least indicate the standard
(modern) spelling of people and places. But beyond that, I
believe I should further identify "therle of Egremond" and "the
lorde of Bauers." Without hitting the library, I was able to
pin down "Egremond" as John IV, Count of Egmont, d. 1528;
seneschal of Hainaut (then part of Burgundy/Spanish Netherlands,
now part of N France and Belgium). I.e., the count was a
Burgundian, fighting for Emperor Charles V, Henry VIII, and the
Holy League against France. The identity of "Bauers" will have
to wait.
Neither of these gents is an ancestor of mine. (Frankly, I'm
more enchanted by the idea of a horse thief among my ancestors
than a duke.) I want to make a 1550 chronicle more useful to
modern-day historians, and I can do that by re-spelling and
defining the vague in a scholarly way. Any one particular
detail is not important; the whole body of details is very
important.
And this pretty much indicates why I'd like to lurk in a
civilized medieval genealogy forum, and occasionally contribute
what I can.
In defense of historical detail,
Al Magary
Leo van de Pas
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: More on Fieschi Family of Genoa - Counts of
Lavagna
<snip>
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu:
---------------------------------
Dear Chico ~
My present working theory is that Cardinal Lucas
Fieschi and his brother, Carlo, are related to the
Counts of Savoy through their mother. If correct,
then their uncle, Pope Innocent IV, would have no
kinship to the Counts of Savoy.
DR
Dear Douglas,
What is the reason for your "working theory"? Do you know more about his
mother than what I quoted from Battilana? Battilana does not even give a
surname for her. Lionetta is not one of the most revealing first names that
makes you think of a Savoie connection.
At the moment I am also pursuing the Moncada family. It is pretty
interesting but also pretty difficult to find material about them.
As always, with Best Wishes
Reedpcgen
Opizzone). Brumisan would be wife of the grandson, though Ugolino is stated by
Battilana to have a wife named Alasia.
Doug, could you give us the exact wording which states that Brumisan was
kinswoman of Edward I [from Foedera 1:i:559]?
Cardinal Luca di Fieschi and his brother Carlo were sons of Niccolo, son of
Tedisio, son of Ugo. Tedisio was father of Pope Adrian V, and Béatrice di
Fieschi who married Tommaso of Savoie (and brother of Pope Innocent IV and
Opizzone).
Luca and Carlo were thus nephews of Tommaso II of Savoie, who is known to be
related to Edward I. His sister Béatrice was mother of Eleanor of Provence,
mother of Edward I.
Where in the Savoie family did you theorize Lionetta fits, or is your theory
based soley on the presumption that, in spite of important political ties and
power held by the Cardinal and Popes, the usage of kinsman could not be used
for nephews of one's grandmother?
Paul
Reedpcgen
>Opizzone). Brumisan would be wife of the grandson, though Ugolino is stated
>by
>Battilana to have a wife named Alasia.
Clearly the spelling should have been Ugolino in both places (sorry, I hope it
did not distract from the questions posed, which still deserve to be answered).
Paul
Reedpcgen
relationship was by marriage.
Edward I's grandmother Beatrice of Savoie was sister-in-law of Beatrice di
Fieschi (who married Tommaso II of Savoie), whose nephews Luca and Carlo were
called kinsmen.
Brumisan is stated to be wife of Ugolino, 1st cousin of Beatrice di Fieschi who
married Tommaso II of Savoie. Beatrice di Fieschi was sister of Pope Adrian V
and niece of Pope Innocent IV.
Paul
Jay
>
> How do I, illiterate on medieval things of all sorts, judge you all and
> your postings? Subscribing to the list didn't bring any more light than I
> had experienced as I tried to sort out the junk from the possibles within
> the archived material.
>
> K McGee
My rule of thumb. There are folks who post interesting material and
back it up with references and learned discussions. There are others
who are less scholarly who post interesting leads, which lead to
interesting which engender interesting disucssions.
There are others who want to talk about the price of couscous in
France, others who have "enemies" whom they want to attack, and other
grumpies who are bitter nasty old farts who have too much time on
their hands. These can be safely discounted.
One can easily cut the wheat from the chaff.
Reedpcgen
link through Savoie, and a more obscure link through Manfredo Lancia.
1. Tommaso I of Savoie
2. Amadeo IV
3. Béatrice de Savoie, m. Manfredo, King of Scicily (son of Emperor Friedrich
II by Bianca, daughter of Manfredo Lancia).
4. Constance of Scicily, m. Pedro III
5. Jaime II
To Edward I, we have
1. Tommaso I of Savoie
2. Béatrice de Savoie, m. Raimond Berengar
3. Eleanor of Provernce, m. Henry III
4. Edward I
Béatrice di Fieschi married Tommaso II (son of Tommaso I) of Savoie. If her
mother or grandmother were a closely related Savoie, that would be an unlikely
marriage. I agree that if the relationship was through the Savoie family,
rather than because of the marriage between Béatrice di Fieschi and Tommaso II
of Savoie, it would have to be through Lionetta (wife of Niccolo di Fieschi),
mother of Luca and Carlo di Fieschi.
Doug, is the name Brumisan, wife of Ugolino, the way it was spelled in the text
of Foedera (and again, what exactly does the text say)?
Paul
Doug Smith
> Edward I ascended the throne in 1272.
> Pope Innocentius IV died in 1254.
> His nephew Pope Hadrianus V was elected in 1276 and died five
> weeks later (according to my Lexicon der Päbste as an old man).
> Brumisan was the mother of Innocentius IV and the grandmother of
> Hadrianus V. It seems impossible that she was still alive in 1272, when
> Edward I ascended he throne.
> So if Edward referred to her as his kinswoman it must have been well
> after her death. It would be interesting to know the date and the
> contents of the text concerned. It seems to me she cannot be related
> to Edward I within the famous fifth degree, counting from Edward. The
> only relationship I can imagine is that if the Pope were Edward's Holy
> Father, the Pope's mother was in a way his grandmother.
>
> The information on he Fieschi family is interesting. Is the identity of the
> wife of Federico Fieschi (father of Eliana x Bernabo Doria) unknown?
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Bert M. Kamp
>
According to Leo's execellent database, Ugo had a grandson Ugolino who
died bef 1281. According to the DB he was married to Alasia. Is it
clear which Ugo/Ugolino that Brumisan was married to?
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. I haven't seen the website you mention.
Can you post the web address?
Below please find some additional information regarding Percival de
Lavagna, brother of Ottobuono di Fieschi (also known as Pope Adrian
V).
Source: Charles Travis Clay, York Minster Fasti, vol. 2 (Yorkshire
Archaeological Soc. Rec. Ser. 124) (1959).
pg. 87 sub Wistow:
Percival de Lavagna. He held prebends of York and Ripon by c. 1267
when Archbishop Giffard collated to him the sacristy of the chapel of
St. Mary and the Holy Angels (Reg. Giffard, p. 148). On 30 April 1268
at the order of his brother Cardinal Ottobuono (afterwards pope Adrian
V), describing him as papal subdeacon and chaplain and in the king's
service, his prebends of York and Ripon were exempted from paying the
tenth, as part of the fruits of his York prebend was reported to have
been taken by the king's servants for the defence of York castle
(ibid., p. 230; Mem. Ripon, ii, 7). Archbishop Giffard complained of
his neglect of duty, urging that he should resign his benefices in
York and Ripon (Reg. Giffard, p. 149; Mem. Ripon, ii, 5). As a canon
of York he was at Rome in 1286 at the election of Archbishop Romeyn
(C.P.L., i, 483). At his death at Rome before 22 April 1290 he held
the sacristy of the chapel, the archdeaconry of Buckingham and a
canonry and prebend of Lincoln (ibid., p. 512). His prebend of Ripon
was that of Nunwick (Mem. Ripon, ii, 192).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<2003091120470...@web41710.mail.yahoo.com>...
Reedpcgen
>hypochoristic
> name? If so, of what? Brunisinde, Brunihilde santo?
I'd wondered if "Brumisan" could be a corruption of Brumarza?
We have "Brumarza, figlia di Rolando Engleschi Podestà di Treviso e Nobile di
Padova" who was wife of "Jacopo I (+ Padova 22-11-1324), Signore di Padova"
[from http://www.sardimpex.com/DA%20CARRARA.htm]
who also appears as
Brumarza Engelschie, wife of Jacobino III da Carrara, Lord of Padua [Leo's
site].
Paul
Francisco Antonio Doria
Dear Doug,
The site is:
It's *very* reliable. All the best, chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu: > Dear Chico ~
> > Dominici-Battelli/Shamą site. Have you looked at
> it?
> >
> > chico
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Desafio AntiZona: participe do jogo de perguntas e respostas que vai
dar um Renault Clio, computadores, cāmeras digitais, videogames e muito
mais! www.cade.com.br/antizona
Randy Jones
Galvano di LANCIA, Prince of Salerno (beheaded 1268).
How does she fit into the Fieschi line below?
-- Randy Jones
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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Douglas Richardson
Below please find some additional information regarding Percival de
Lavania, brother of Cardinal Ottoboni Fieschi (later Pope Adrian V)
which is found in the Register of Walter Giffard, Archbishop of York.
Also, those interested in the Fieschi family may also wish to consult
the interesting article on Cardinal Ottoboni's time in England is the
following source:
Rose Graham "Cardinal Ottoboni and the Monastery of Stratford
Langthorne" in English Historical Review, 33 (1918): 213-225.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Register of Walter Giffard, Lord Archbishop of York 1266-1279 (Surtees
Soc. 109) (1904): 148-149:
Editor's Note in Margin: Notice of the collation of Percival, brother
of cardinal Ottobonus, to the sacristy of St. Mary and the Angels,
York].
"DLXXIX. Sacristia Ebor. Sciendum sive proponendum coram venerabili
patre, domino O., S. Adriani diacono cardinali, quod, si suae
sanctitati complaceat, recordetur quam liberaliter et benigne
contulimus suo germano, domino Percevallo, sacristarium in capella S.
Mariae et Angelorum Ebor. …"
Francisco Antonio Doria
Thanks for the info, Doug.
Best, chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu: > Dear Robert, Chico, etc.
_______________________________________________________________________
B.M. Kamp
Genoa - Counts of Lavagna
In the very useful list of the Fieschi family provided by Robert Baxter,
under nr B2bii Jacopina: (see below)
>
> I have a chart of the di Fieschi family I've made from notes from
> Gen-Medieval(thanks to those writers), Turton(I know he's
> questionable), the Roglo site, Williams's book PAPAL GENEALOGY, and
> GENEALOGIE MEDIOEVALI DI SARDEGNA by Brook and company.
>
> I. Ugo di Fieschi
> m Brumisan (di Grillo according to Turton). Is Brumisan a
> hypochoristic
> name? If so, of what? Brunisinde, Brunihilde santo? Turton gives
> a
> number of generations prior to Ugo.
>
> A. Marghertia di Fieschi
> B. Teodosio di Fieschi(b abt 1200)
> m 1st Vigolan di Capo Corso
>
> 1. Beatrice di Fieschi (b abt 1230 d 1283)
> m Thomas II de Savoie
>
> m 2nd Simone della Volta
>
> 2. Frederico di Fieschi (d aft 1298)
>
> a. Eleonora di Fieschi (b abt 1275 d abt 1337
> m Bernabo Doria
>
> b. Niccolo di Fieschi
>
> i. Carlo di Fieschi
> ii. Jacopina di Fieschi
It seems to me that Jacopina is identical with Giacoma Fieschi + 1287
who married in 1263 Obizzo II Marchese d'Este e Signore di Ferrara.
In Eur Stammt I.1 table 32 she is described as ''niece of Ottobuono
Fieschi, Pope Adrian V". That fits. As far as I know Jacopina and
Giacoma are essentially the same name (female form of
Iacopo/Giacomo, italian for James).
> iii. Cardinal Luca di Fieschi
> iv. Alagia de Fieschi
>
> c. Ottobono di Fieschi Pope Hadrian V
>
> Is this Adrian di Fieschi?
>
> C. Sinibaldo di Fieschi Pope Innocent IV
> D. Cardinal Roberto di Fieschi
> E. Agnese di Fieschi
> F. Madelena di Fieschi
> G. Opizzo di Fieschi
> m Bianca dei Bianchi?
>
> 1. Nee di Fieschi
> m Ruggiero II di Sanserverino
>
> 2. Argentina di Fieschi
> m Corrado Spinola Captain of Genoa
>
Brad Verity
> 3. Charles/Carlo di Fieschi styled "kinsman" by King Edward II of
> England
> [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera 2 Pt. 1 (1818): 274].
Carlo di Fieschi was the brother of Manuel - see below.
> There is an interesting article featuring Cardinal Lucas di Fieschi's
> 2nd cousin once removed, Manuel di Fieschi, which is found in the
> journal, Speculum, 53 (1978): 522-544. The authors, G.P. Cuttino and
> and T.W. Lyman, include an abbreviated pedigree of the Fieschi family
> in an appendix on page 544. [snip] They mention only that Charles/Carlo is addressed as
> "consanguineo" (kinsman) by King Edward II.
> If anyone has any particulars on the Fieschi family which would shed
> further light on this family, I'd appreciate it if they would post
> this information here on the newsgroup.
Cuttino and Lyman's 1978 Speculum article is referenced by historian
Paul C. Doherty in his new book "Isabella and the Strange Death of
Edward II". On pages 185-215, Doherty describes the career of Manuel
di Fieschi in great detail. For it was Fieschi who wrote the 1340
letter to Edward III describing how deposed King Edward II escaped
England and wandered Europe as a hermit. Doherty debunks the entire
letter, and concludes it was a successful move on the part of Fieschi
(a former adherent of Queen Isabella and Mortimer) to blackmail Edward
III into ratifying him as prebendary in two English dioceses in 1342.
Doherty describes Fieschi as "a distant cousin of the English royal
family" but doesn't lay out the relationship.
Cheers, -----Brad
B.M. Kamp
Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani (DBI). DBI is an ambitious
publication. It started in 1966. So far some 50 volume were published,
but these volumes only cover the alphabet until H. It does not give
genealogies, but the biographies often give the names of parents, wife
and children of the person concerned. Personally I think it is an
excellent and reliable source.
On the basis of the entries under Fieschi, a reconstructed genealogy
can be given, which is somewhat different from the table by Robert
Baxter.
So far I can only give the descendants of Tedisio (B in the Baxter
table).
B. Tedisio (son of Ugo by N, fa of Amico Grillo), born towards the end
of the 12th century, he died bef 19 Febr 1248, x Simona N (possibly fa
Simone Camilla), by whom he had 6 sons and 3 daughters:
1. Ugo + 1275/1276 x N, by whom he had 7 sons (no daughters are
mentioned):
a. Opizzo
b. Federico
c. Sinisbaldo
d. Bartolomeo
e. Raimondino
f. Enrico
g. Alberto
2. Ottobono (pope Adrianus V)
3. Alberto * ca 1330 + ?? 1) x Argentina N, by whom 7 so and 1 da:
a. Manuele
b. Egidio (canon in Pars)
c. Leonardo (bishop of Catania)
d. Andriolo
e. Guglielmo
f. Bernabo
g. Catarina x 1261 Giacomo Grimaldi
( it seems that I missed one of the sons)
4. Niccolo + 1304/1310 x Leonora N, by whom 6 sons and 3
daughters:
a. Ottobono
b. Carlo + 26 Aug 1321 x (end 13th cent) Teodoa N, by whom he
had 2 s, 4 da:
b1 Antonio
b2 Lucchino 1330 +
b3 Ginetta x Pietro Rossi (di Parma)
b4 Eliana x Alberto del Carretto
(not x Mariano Doria, as Battilana says)
b5 Isabella x Lucchino Viscont
b6 Sobergia x Geoffroy de Challant
c. Federico
d. Luca (the cardinal) * about 1275 + Avignon 31 Jan 1336 2)
e. Alberto
f. Brancaleone + 1297
g. Alagia x Moroello Malaspina
h. Flisca x Alberto Malaspina
i. Giacomina x Obizzo d'Este
5. Federico + 1303 x (according to Federico Federici: Alberi
genealogiche delle famiglie di Genova 3) Teodora di Riccardo Spinola,
by whom only one da:
a. Eleonora x Bernabo Doria
xx Clara (Chiara) N, by whom also one da:
b. Andriola
6. Percevalle + 1290
7. Venanzio
8. Beatrice x Tomasso di Savoia 4)
9. Agnese x Ottone III del Carretto
10. Caracosa x Bonifazio Grimaldi xx Bonifazio del Carretto
Quite a surprise was a paragraph in the biography of Tedisio, saying
that Tedisio was often confused (by Battilana and others) with another
Tedisio who was styled nepos by Pope Innocentius IV 5). The exact
relationship with the Pope is not clear. This other Tedisio was also
married to a Simona. He died before 1288 when his wife was indicated
as widow. This Simona was fa Raimondo della Volta.
Three daughters are known:
1. Claricia x 1268 Manuele Zaccaria (brother of Benedetto, the admiral)
2. Vittoria x Ottobono del Carretto
3. N (fa) x Simone di Carmadino
Notes:
1) My personal opinion is that Alberto was probably earlier than 1330,
as his daughter married in 1261.
2) The cardinal was probably born earlier than 1275. His sister
Giacomina married in 1263 according to ES, even if she was 12 when
she married, the age difference with her brother should be 24 years;
however, their father might have married twice)
3) Federico Federici was - I believe- a 16th century author. I presume
the family name of Federico's first wife was not found by the DBI
authors in another source.
4) There is something strange with their marriage date. ES gives 1251.
However their eldest son Tomasso III was born in August 1248, says
ES. Their second son was born 4 Sept 1249. Were these sons
l.p.s.m.?
5) For Pope Innozenzio IV DBI refers to the entry under Innozenzio
(not yet published, I presume and hope he will remain a son of Ugo
and N di Grillo).
For the sake of convenience the baxter table follows below.
Regards to all,
Bert M. Kamp
> >
> > I have a chart of the di Fieschi family I've made from notes from
> > Gen-Medieval(thanks to those writers), Turton(I know he's
> > questionable), the Roglo site, Williams's book PAPAL GENEALOGY, and
> > GENEALOGIE MEDIOEVALI DI SARDEGNA by Brook and company.
> >
> > I. Ugo di Fieschi
> > m Brumisan (di Grillo according to Turton). Is Brumisan a
> > hypochoristic
> > name? If so, of what? Brunisinde, Brunihilde santo? Turton gives
> > a
> > number of generations prior to Ugo.
> >
> > A. Marghertia di Fieschi
> > B. Teodosio di Fieschi(b abt 1200)
> > m 1st Vigolan di Capo Corso
> >
> > 1. Beatrice di Fieschi (b abt 1230 d 1283)
> > m Thomas II de Savoie
> >
> > m 2nd Simone della Volta
> >
> > 2. Frederico di Fieschi (d aft 1298)
> >
> > a. Eleonora di Fieschi (b abt 1275 d abt 1337
> > m Bernabo Doria
> >
> > b. Niccolo di Fieschi
> >
> > i. Carlo di Fieschi
> > ii. Jacopina di Fieschi
Francisco Antonio Doria
I have the wife of Bernabò Doria as Eliana. Might be
just a variant, cf. Liò, Liona. There is also Eliano,
a name frequent among the Spinolas.
chico
--- "B.M. Kamp" <bmk...@wanadoo.nl> escreveu: >
=== message truncated ===
Yahoo! Mail - o melhor webmail do Brasil
http://mail.yahoo.com.br
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for taking the time to post this information. It's very
much appreciated.
Previous posts have indicated that Cardinal Luca Fieschi was related
to both the Kings of England and Aragon. If so, it would seem highly
probable that his mother, Leonora, was related somehow to the Counts
of Savoy who are common to the ancestry of the two royal families.
I see Cardinal Luca's parents, Niccolo and Leonora, also had the
following children: Ottobono, Carlo, Federico, Alberto, Brancaleone,
Alagia, Flisca, and Giacomina. The names, Ottobono, Federico, and
Alberto were used in the previous generation of the Fieschi family.
Does anyone recognize any of the other names being used by another
Italian family with Savoyard connections?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<200310040937...@web41705.mail.yahoo.com>...
Francisco Antonio Doria
Alagia is Allasia, a name we still find today. Flisca
is of course Fiesca. These names you list are common
in contemporary Genoese families. Provençal
connections may be evident in eg Perzivale and Isotta.
chico
--- Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
escreveu: > Dear Bert ~
Dario de Judicibus
> Yesterday I had the opportunity to consult the Fieschi entries in the
> Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani (DBI).
Bert,
do you have volume G too? I'm looking for
GIUDICI (DE') from Genoa, Ventimiglia, Diano and other Ligurian towns.
The same family moved to Naples, Palermo and Molfetta in XV century.
In Naples they were called DEL GIUDICE, not to be confused with DEL
GIUDICE of Amalfi, a different family. In Genoa and Molfetta, DE
IUDICIBUS or DE JUDICIBUS. In most Italian books, the Italian version of
name is used (DE' GIUDICI, DEI GIUDICI or simply GIUDICI).
They have few coats of arms. The most important two are:
interzato, (nel I) di rosso,
(nel II) d'argento e (nel III) d'azzurro
and
d'azzurro alla banda di rosso
caricata di tre gigli d'oro in banda
Any additional information is appreciated. Please, note that in 15 years
I already collected a LOT of info. You can find most of them on
http://www.dejudicibus.it/genealogia/
Dario de Judicibus
Douglas Richardson
I found the following record in the Patent Rolls relating to the
Fieschi family this past week. I didn't write down the date of the
entry but it would be from the late 1250's. Can anyone identify these
two members of the Fieschi family?
"Simple protection without term for Thedisius de Luvania, parson of
the church of Sibet[on], [Suffolk] and Hugelin, his brother."
[Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1247-1258 (1908), pg. 626].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Francisco Antonio Doria
chico
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - o melhor webmail do Brasil. Saiba mais!
B.M. Kamp
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The Fieschi Family of Genoa
containing Fieschi in the Library of the University of Utrecht. I am sure
that I have seen the volume containing Gonzaga, so del Giudice might
be covered. However all the del Carretto's are included under the D, so
it possible that del Giudice is also covered under that letter.
I'll have a look when I go again to the library, but that may well take
several weeks.
Douglas Richardson
Going through the published registers of Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of
Worcester, I've located two additional references to members of the
Fieschi family of Genoa, which items I've copied below. Both
individuals are styled "de Lavania" which surname is an alternative
surname employed by the Fieschi family.
l. Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard 3 (Episcopal Regs., Dioc. of
Worc.) (1900): 264:
"Letter from the bishop [of London] to Theodisius de Lavan', chaplain
of the Pope and rector of the church of Ambresl', concerning the
unlawful occupation of his rectory. Dated at Winchind', the 6th of
the Ides of August [1285]."
2. Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard 3 (Episcopal Regs., Dioc. of
Worc.) (1900): 310:
"Commission to Giffredus de Wesano to try the cause between Thomas de
Stochi', clerk, brother of the church of Camme [Cam], and Opizon de
Lavania. Dated at Ichull, the 17th of the Kalends of July, 1287."
The second item above mentions a Opizon de Lavania, who I believe
would fit chronologically to be Opizzo, son of Ugo/Ugolino di Fieschi
and his wife, Brumisan del Caretto. Opizzo son of Ugo is mentioned in
Bert Kamp's earlier post below which gives a good working outline of
the Fieschi family tree. Special thanks go to Bert for taking the
time and trouble to assemble the information on the Fieschi family for
all of us.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - -
bmk...@wanadoo.nl ("B.M. Kamp") wrote in message news:<3F7EA31E.27008.147FFF@localhost>...
beece8
ANy help is appreciated..
thanks