1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
I recently noted reference to a dispensation for the marriage of
Edmund Hastings (a younger son of John Hastings of Elsing and Anne
Morley) to his first wife, Mary (Greystoke) Salvain. As referenced
in Testamenta Eboracensia, in a footnote to the will of Edmund's
brother Sir Hugh Hastings (d. 1488), it is stated that
' On July 15th, 1479, Archbishop Booth allowed a marriage to
be celebrated between Edmund Hastings and Mary widow of
Thomas Salvin, who were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees.' [1]
My review to date of the ancestries of Edmund Hastings, Mary
Greystoke and Thomas Salvain has failed to find such a relationship.
I have noted there was a relationship in the 4th and 4th degree of
affinity, as both Edmund Hastings and Thomas Salvain were
gg grandsons of Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford and his wife Philippa
de Beauchamp [see below].
If this (3rd and 4th degree) relationship as stated is correct,
and not a misunderstanding of the known (4th and 4th degree)
relationship, identifying same should lead to an interesting
discovery, and possible correction of the ancestry of one or more
of these individuals. A great many individuals (including list
members, as well as a number of the better known nobility and
royalty) have ancestry that would be affected, and corrected.
Should anyone have further relevant information or documentation
that would resolve this question, that would be of great interest.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Testamenta Eboracensia III:273, cites "Reg. Laur. Booth,
101b". The text can be seen online, courtesy of Google, at
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0kq193xr6fwzONy-ZEqJVXW&id=fkwJAAAAIAAJ&pg=P
A273&lpg=PA273&dq=hugh+hastynges+fenwick&ie=ISO-8859-1
[2] Following are ahnentafeln for Edmund Hastings, Mary Greystoke
and Thomas Salvain, up to their known great-great grandparents.
______________________________________
Ahnentafeln
1 Edmund Hastings. Edmund died aft 21 Jan 1487.
aft 15 Jul 1479 Edmund married Mary Greystoke.
2 John Hastings, esquire, of Gressenhall, Elsing, East Lexham and
Weasenham, Norfok, Fenwick, Norton and Moseley, co. Yorks., and
Monewden, Suffolk *
3 Anne Morley.
4 Sir Edward Hastings, Knight, of Elsing, Gressenhall and Weasenham,
Norfolk, Fenwick, co. York & c.
5 Muriel Dinham.
6 Thomas Morley, of Hallingbury, Essex, Hockering, Roydon and
Hingham, Norfolk, 5th Lord Morley, and Marshal of Ireland
7 Isabel de la Pole.
8 Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knight, of Fenwick and Norton, co. York,
Elsing, Gressenhall and Weasenham, co. Norfolk & c.
9 Anne le Despenser.
10 Sir John Dinham, Knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham,
Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall, 5th Lord Dinham
11 Eleanor de Montagu.
12 Sir Robert Morley.
13 Isabel Moleyns.
14 Sir Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk.
15 Katherine Stafford. Born in 1370.
16 Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knight.
17 Margaret de Everingham.
18 Sir Edward le Despenser, Knight, lord of Glamorgan and Morganwwg.
19 Elizabeth Burghersh.
20 Sir John de Dinham, Knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham,
Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall
21 Muriel de Courtenay.
22 John de Montagu, Knight, of Wark upon Tweed, Northumberland
23 Margaret de Monthermer.
24 Sir Thomas Morley, Knight, of Hallingbury, Essex, Hockering,
Roydon and Hingham, Norfolk, 4th Lord Morley.
25 Joan Hastings.
26 Sir Richard de Moleyns, Knight, of Aston Brampton, co. Oxon.
27 Eleanor de Beaumont.
28 Michael de la Pole, Knight, 1st Earl of Suffolk.
29 Katherine Wingfield.
30 Sir Hugh de Stafford, Knight, 2nd Earl of Stafford.
31 Philippa de Beauchamp.
______________________________________
1 Mary Greystoke.
aft 15 Jul 1479 Mary married Edmund Hastings.
2 Sir Ralph Greystoke.
3 Elizabeth FitzHugh.
4 John Greystoke, 4th Lord Greystoke, and Lord FitzWilliam
5 Elizabeth Ferrers.
6 William FitzHugh, Lord FitzHugh.
7 Margery Willoughby.
8 Ralph Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke
9 Katherine Clifford. Katherine died on 23 Apr 1413.
10 Robert de Ferrers, 2nd Baron Ferrers of Wemme.
11 Joan Beaufort.
12 Sir Henry FitzHugh.
13 Elizabeth de Marmion [Grey].
14 William Willoughby.
15 Lucy L'Estrange.
16 William de Greystoke.
18 Roger de Clifford, 5th Lord Clifford
19 Maud de Beauchamp.
20 Sir Robert de Ferrers, 1st Baron Ferrers of Wemme.
21 Elizabeth le Botiller, Lady Botiller.
22 John'of Gaunt', Duke of Lancaster.
23 Katherine Roet.
24 Sir Henry FitzHugh, 2nd Lord FitzHugh.
25 Joan le Scrope.
26 Sir Robert Marmion [Grey], Lord Grey of Wilcote.
27 Lora de St. Quintin. Lora died in 1369.
28 Robert Willoughby, 4th Lord Willoughby.
29 Alice.
30 Roger le Strange, Lord Strange of Knokyn.
31 Aline (Alice?) de Arundel.
______________________________________
1 Thomas Salvain.
Thomas married Mary Greystoke.
2 Sir John Salvain, Knight, of Newbiggin, co. Yorks.
3 Joan Gray.
4 George Salvain, of Kilham and Napperton, co. Yorks.
5 Elizabeth de Mauley, sister and coheiress of Piers de Mauley
6 Sir Thomas Gray, Knight, of Heton and Wark-on-Tweed, Northumberland.
7 Alice Neville.
8 Gerard Salvain, of Burnby [Bruneby], co. York
10 Piers de Mauley (d.v.p. bef Mar 1382).
11 Margery de Sutton.
12 Sir Thomas Gray, Knight, of Heton and Wark-on-Tweed, Northumberland.
13 Joan Mowbray. Joan died aft 30 Nov 1402.
14 Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland.
15 Margaret de Stafford.
16 Sir Gerard Salvain, Knt., of North Duffield and Herswell, co. Yorks.
17 Alice de Gray.
20 Sir Piers de Mauley, 4th Lord Mauley of Mulgrave.
21 Elizabeth de Meinill.
22 Sir Thomas de Sutton, 3rd Lord Sutton of Holderness.
23 Agnes de Hotham.
24 Sir Thomas de Gray, of Heton, Northumberland
author of the 'Scalacronica'
25 Margaret de Presfen.
26 John de Mowbray, Lord Mowbray.
27 Elizabeth de Segrave, Baroness Segrave.
28 John de Neville, Lord Neville.
29 Maud de Percy.
30 Sir Hugh de Stafford, Knight, 2nd Earl of Stafford.
31 Philippa de Beauchamp.
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
<< 15 Katherine Stafford. Born in 1370. >>
What is the source for this exact birthyear ?
Thanks
Will
The...@aol.com
Dear Will,
The 1370 date is a working estimate (intended to have been deleted from
the AT before posting - dispensa mea). We know Edmund Stafford (a younger but
not youngest son) was born 2 March 1377/78, and on the flip side we know
Katherine Stafford's 2nd son William was born 16 Oct 1396.
I have Michael de la Pole and Katherine Stafford being married (or
contracted to be married) before 23 Nov 1383. I think she might have been born
somewhat before 1370, and not much later than 1370. The date is a conjecture,
and should read "ca. 1370" (or better, should be blank, for the moment).
Cheers,
John
WJho...@aol.com
<< I have Michael de la Pole and Katherine Stafford being married (or
contracted to be married) before 23 Nov 1383. I think she might have been born
somewhat before 1370, and not much later than 1370. >>
As boundaries on her age, all I have is that her father Hugh was born 1341/2
and died 10 Oct 1386, but his wife predeceased him and was died by 6 Apr 1386.
This wife, Philippa de Beaumont, has no useful boundaries on her age to help
in this respect but she was certainly born by 1351.
Katherine's husband Michael de la Pole was born in 1367 per Leo.
I don't have anything else that helps us pin down Katherine's birth, so right
now I have the rather wide and unuseful 1358/82.
Will
Brad Verity
> I recently noted reference to a dispensation for the marriage of
> Edmund Hastings (a younger son of John Hastings of Elsing and Anne
> Morley) to his first wife, Mary (Greystoke) Salvain. As referenced
> in Testamenta Eboracensia, in a footnote to the will of Edmund's
> brother Sir Hugh Hastings (d. 1488), it is stated that
>
> ' On July 15th, 1479, Archbishop Booth allowed a marriage to
> be celebrated between Edmund Hastings and Mary widow of
> Thomas Salvin, who were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees.' [1]
Dear John,
The editor of 'Testamenta Eboracensia' was wrong in the parentage of
Sir Edmund Hastings (d. 10 September 1487, per his IPM), second husband
of Mary Greystoke (died 30 September 1496, per her IPM). Per a
pedigree in the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire (H.S.P. 16, 1881), p. 153,
Sir Edmund was the son of Edmund Hastings and a daughter of Sir John
Felton of Northumberland. This would make Sir Edmund's parents as Sir
Edmund Hastings, of Roxby, Yorkshire, and Elizabeth Felton, heiress of
Edlingham, daughter of Sir John Felton of Edlingham (c.1341-1396). Per
PA3, p. 507, there is a biography of Sir Edmund Hastings of Roxby in
Roskell's HOP, Vol. 3, pp. 317-319.
I don't know how the Greystokes or Fitzhughs (Mary's ancestry) tie into
the Hastings of Roxby and Felton of Edlingham families, but hopefully
this will help get you on track.
I should add that the 1563 Hastings Visitation pedigree is wrong in
making Mary Greystoke the mother of Sir Edmund Hastings' son and heir,
Sir Roger Hastings. Per the IPM, Roger Hastings was age 26 and more at
his father's death, so born by 1461. There was probably confusion
because Mary's Greystoke son and heir (by her first husband Thomas
Salvin) had the same first name. Per his Proof of Age, Roger Salvin
was born at Newbiggin 14 May 1473.
Rather the mother of Sir Roger Hastings was Sir Edmund's first wife,
who was a Middleton of Belsay. Unfortunately, her first name is not
given in the Ogle pedigree of the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North
(Surtees Soc. 144, 1930), p. 55, but her parents were Sir John
Middelton of Belsay, Northumberland (d. 1464/7) and Elizabeth Ogle,
widow of Sir William Heron of Ford (d. 1 September 1425), and eldest
daughter of Sir Robert Ogle and Maud Gray.
Cheers, -------Brad
AlexSt...@aol.com
I notice you refer to Katherine Stafford's mother, the wife of Hugh
Stafford, as Philippa de Beaumont. Was she not Philippa Beauchamp? I assume this was
just a typing error.
Regards,
Alex
Brad Verity
> As boundaries on her age, all I have is that her father Hugh was born 1341/2
> and died 10 Oct 1386, but his wife predeceased him and was died by 6 Apr 1386.
> This wife, Philippa de Beaumont, has no useful boundaries on her age to help
> in this respect but she was certainly born by 1351.
Dear Will,
Philippa Beauchamp, countess of Stafford, was born by 1343. She was
the third daughter of Thomas Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick, and his
four eldest daughters were born by the following year.
>From Kenneth B. McFarlane, 'Nobility of Later Medieval England'
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1973), p. 196: "In 1344, having no cash to
spare, he [Earl Thomas] made an enfeoffment of lands to trustees to
raise some f2,700 to provide portions for his four eldest daughters--in
descending amounts. The eldest, Elizabeth, was to have f1,200, Maud
and Philippa 1,000 marks each, and Katherine a mere f200. Yet in 1353
when he actually contracted to give Philippa in marriage to the Earl of
Stafford's heir, instead of 1,000 marks he offered f2,000, exactly
three times as much. Crecy and Calais had intervened."
Cheers, -------Brad
WJho...@aol.com
royald...@hotmail.com writes:
<< but her parents were Sir John
Middelton of Belsay, Northumberland (d. 1464/7) and Elizabeth Ogle,
widow of Sir William Heron of Ford (d. 1 September 1425), and eldest
daughter of Sir Robert Ogle and Maud Gray. >>
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"
They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
royald...@hotmail.com writes:
<< Yet in 1353
when he actually contracted to give Philippa in marriage to the Earl of
Stafford's heir, instead of 1,000 marks he offered f2,000, exactly
three times as much. Crecy and Calais had intervened." >>
Brad thanks for this interesting quote.
On this 1353 date Leo has
"Bef 1 Mar 1351"
Brad Verity
> Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
> Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
> Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"
She is called 'Anne' in the Ogle pedigree in the 1563 Visitation of
Yorkshire, but the dispensation for her marriage to William Heron shows
that her first name was actually 'Elizabeth'.
> They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
> Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461
Yes.
> Brad thanks for this interesting quote.
> On this 1353 date Leo has
> "Bef 1 Mar 1351"
That date in 1351 marks the start of the negotiations for the marriage.
Cheers, ---------Brad
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> In a message dated 8/29/06 9:46:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> royald...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << but her parents were Sir John
> Middelton of Belsay, Northumberland (d. 1464/7) and Elizabeth Ogle,
> widow of Sir William Heron of Ford (d. 1 September 1425), and eldest
> daughter of Sir Robert Ogle and Maud Gray. >>
>
> Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
> Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
> Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"
As does CP VI 488 but cites Tests Ebor (Surtees Soc) vol iii, p. 321 and
adds a notes that 'His wife here is named Elizabeth'. No correction in
XIV.
However Chris Phillips' CP Corrigenda site supports the Elizabeth name
with evidence provided by ... Brad Verity. See:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/heron.shtml
> They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
> Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for your detailed reply. I am going to check further into
the matter, but I think there is some conflation between 2 or more
Edmunds. I am not sure, esp. given the confusion in the Visitation
footnotes and the heraldry of the Hastings of Rowesby (or Roxby) that
the relationship of the families is quite so close.
Cheers,
John