Thoms Randolph
Brice Clagett
John Ravilious
I also had some time ago accepted the relationship of Robert 'the' Bruce
and Thomas Randolph as set out lucidly, if possibly not originally, by G.W.S.
Barrow [Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland, Edinburgh
1965]. The recent discussion of an Isabel Bruce being mother of Thomas
Randolph did cause me to look about, however.
I see that in the 5th edition of The Magna Carta Sureties, Robert Bruce or
de Brus (1243-1304), Earl of Carrick is shown as marrying one Eleanor after
the death of his first wife [which occurred in 1292], and allegedly fathering
Isabel, who married Thomas Randolph, Chamberlain of Scotland. It follows
without being said that these were supposedly the parents of Thomas Randolph,
Earl of Moray. References for this generation (MC, p. 50, Line 41,
generation 4) are several entries in CP, and interestingly also, G.W.S.
Barrow's Robert Bruce.
The primary problem with this linkage is chronological. Given the death
of the Countess Marjorie of Carrick in 1292, even hurriedly a daughter of
Robert Bruce (d. 1304) and a second wife would have occurred in 1293 or
later. Thomas Randolph appears as an active supporter (and not a child) of
Robert 'the' Bruce in 1306, for which active support his lands were included
in those declared forfeit by Edward I of England (Barrow, p. 448); he further
attended the parliament at St. Andrews between 25 March 1308/09 and 24 March
1309/10 as lord of Nithsdale, which is further indication of his being of too
advanced an age to be the issue of the alleged marriage.
Scots Peerage (Vol. II, pp 433-434), under Bruce, Earl of Carrick, deals
with the subject of the alleged 'Isobel'. Robert Bruce (d. 1304) did have a
daughter Isabel or Isabella, but not the issue of the second marriage: as
stated in SP, p. 433,
' But Isobel was certainly married to Eric, King of Norway, as his second
wife; for on 20 September 1292 Robert de Brus, Earl of Carrick, with his
daughter Isabella, had a safe-conduct to go to Norway, and it was doubtless
during his visit that the marriage was arranged...... Supposing Isobel to
have been born about 1275, she would at this time have been only eighteen or
nineteen years of age, and therefore unlikely to have been previously
married.'
The de Kilconquhar - Randolph connection as to explaining the relationship
of Bruce and Randolph still appears to have the edge.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John
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Suzanne Doig
Ravilious) wrote:
> I see that in the 5th edition of The Magna Carta Sureties, Robert Bruce or
>de Brus (1243-1304), Earl of Carrick is shown as marrying one Eleanor after
>the death of his first wife [which occurred in 1292], and allegedly fathering
>Isabel, who married Thomas Randolph, Chamberlain of Scotland. It follows
>without being said that these were supposedly the parents of Thomas Randolph,
>Earl of Moray. References for this generation (MC, p. 50, Line 41,
>generation 4) are several entries in CP, and interestingly also, G.W.S.
>Barrow's Robert Bruce.
>
> The primary problem with this linkage is chronological. Given the death
>of the Countess Marjorie of Carrick in 1292, even hurriedly a daughter of
>Robert Bruce (d. 1304) and a second wife would have occurred in 1293 or
>later. Thomas Randolph appears as an active supporter (and not a child) of
>Robert 'the' Bruce in 1306, for which active support his lands were included
>in those declared forfeit by Edward I of England (Barrow, p. 448); he further
>attended the parliament at St. Andrews between 25 March 1308/09 and 24 March
>1309/10 as lord of Nithsdale, which is further indication of his being of too
>advanced an age to be the issue of the alleged marriage.
I have a note, I know not whence (possibly CP IV:508), which says that
Isabel's son Thomas Randolph was already an adult by 26 December 1292,
so making it completely impossible for him to be a grandson (or even a
child!) of Robert Bruce and Eleanor.
The 1292 majority, however, does fit reasonably well with the
proposition that Isabel was a child of Marjory of Carrick's first
marriage. I do not have a date for her marriage to Adam de Kinconcath,
but as Marjory was born 1245, a daughter (Isabel) born c1260 could
have had a son Thomas c1275, who would then be aged 17 in 1292 and 31
in 1306 (when he was active with his uncle Robert Bruce, who must have
been little older than himself).
Suzanne
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