CP Addition: Clifford, Dacre
Douglas Richardson
There are two interesting articles in print which concern the
surviving household accounts of Queen Margaret of Anjou, wife of King
Henry VI of England (see Bull. John Rylands Library 40 (1957–58):
79–113, 391–431; 42 (1959–60): 113–131). These records refer in
several places places to Lady Elizabeth (or Isabel) Dacre, who was a
lady in waiting to Queen Margaret of Anjou in the period c. 1452/3.
In one instance, Elizabeth is referred to as "Domine Isabelle Dacre
alias Domine Isabelle Butteler."
In 40:404, note 2, the author states that Lady Dacre "was the daughter
of Thomas, lord Dacre. In 1454 she married, as his second wife, Sir
John Butler or Botiler of Warrington (below, fol. 19b); but in 1458
the marriage was dissolved on the curious grounds that she had already
in May 1453 contracted a marriage with Thomas, Lord Clifford, who fell
in the first battle of St. Albans in May 1455 and had married Joan
Dacre in 1414 [W. Beaumont, Annals of the Lords of Warrington, ii. 281
(Chetham Soc., 1873)]."
Checking Complete Peerage 3: 293 (sub Clifford), I find that Thomas
Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford, married sometime after March 1424 (not
1414) to Joan Dacre, daughter of the said Thomas Dacre, Lord Dacre, by
his wife, Philippe Neville. This marriage is the only marriage given
to Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford, by the editor. Joan Dacre's
death date is not known, but her husband, Thomas Clifford, died in
1455, as stated above in the Rylands article.
The marriage of Thomas Clifford and Joan Dacre is confirmed by at
least two visitations as follows:
H.S.P. 16 (1881): 83–85 (1563–4 Vis. Yorkshire) (Dacre pedigree:
"Jane [Dacre] = Thomas Lord Clyfford").
W. Harvey et al. Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930):
23–32 (Neville pedigree: "Iohanna [Dacre] nupta Thome domino de
Clifford").
If Thomas Clifford was married (1st) to Joan Dacre sometime after
1424, he surely would not have been contracted to marry her sister in
1453. This would have been considered incest by the church and
strictly forbidden. In fact, the above two cited Dacre family
pedigrees indicate that Joan Dacre had but one sister, Margaret Dacre,
which Margaret married John Scrope, Lord Scrope of Upshal [see
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 568-569 for further details regarding
Margaret Dacre].
If Thomas Clifford's contracted 2nd wife, Lady Elizabeth Dacre, wasn't
a daughter of Thomas Dacre, Lord Dacre, then who was she? This matter
deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> If Thomas Clifford's contracted 2nd wife, Lady Elizabeth Dacre, wasn't
> a daughter of Thomas Dacre, Lord Dacre, then who was she? This matter
> deserves further study.
I wonder whether she could have been a Dacre by marriage instead of by
birth? If so, she could perhaps even have been the widow of Thomas, the son
of this Thomas, Lord Dacre (d. 1457/8). CP vol. 4, pp. 7, 8 say that Thomas
junior died in his father's lifetime, having married Elizabeth, daughter and
heir of Sir William Bowet. (That would make her the sister-in-law of Thomas
Clifford's first wife.) That's pure speculation, of course, but as this
Elizabeth Bowet was an heiress, perhaps there could be evidence to confirm
or deny it.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
I've already considered the possibility that Thomas Clifford's 2nd
contracted wife, Lady Elizabeth Dacre, was Elizabeth Bowet, widow of
his brother-in-law, Thomas Dacre, Knt., the younger. Thomas Clifford
and Elizabeth Bowet were the same approximate age. I find that Thomas
Dacre, Jr., was living in 1452, but dead before 1458. Conceivably if
Thomas Dacre, Jr., died around 1452, his widow could easily have
contracted a second marriage in 1453. So far, so good.
On the flip side, however, it appears that Thomas Clifford's
contracted wife, Lady Elizabeth Dacre, married in 1454 (as his 2nd
wife) to John Boteler, of Warrington, co. Lancester. This is where
things fall apart. According to standard accounts of the Boteler
family, this John Boteler was born in 1429. If correct, he would be
considerably younger than Elizabeth Bowet who I show was married
Thomas Dacre, Jr., and had her eldest child about 1433. At the very
least, Elizabeth Bowet would have to have been at least ten years
older than John Boteler. While this would be somewhat unusual, I can
accept this as a possibility.
According to VCH Lancaster 1 (1906): 347, the source for Lady
Elizabeth Dacre's marriage in 1454 to John Boteler is the following
source:
Lichfield Episcopal Reg. Bothe
I don't know if this register has been transcribed and printed, but,
if so, it certainly would be worth examining. I believe this source
also documents the dissolution of the marriage of Lady Elizabeth Dacre
and John Boteler in 1458.
The identity of Lady Elizabeth Dacre aside, this material at least
tells us that Thomas Clifford's first wife, Joan Dacre, died prior to
May 1453, which death date is not included in Complete Peerage. So
that part is certainly new.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bk7p13$76e$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Jay
> In 40:404, note 2, the author states that Lady Dacre "was the daughter
> of Thomas, lord Dacre. In 1454 she married, as his second wife, Sir
As in the poem:
BUT word is come to Warrington,
And Busye Hall is laid about;
Sir Iohn Butler and his merry men
Stand in full great doubt.
When they came to Busye Hall
Itt was the merke midnight,
And all the bridges were vp drawen,
And neuer a candle-light.
There they made them one good boate,
All of one good bull skinn;
William Sauage was one of the first
That euer came itt within.
Hee sayled ore his merrymen,
By two and two together,
And said itt was as good a bote
As ere was made of lether.
`Waken you, waken you, deare father!
God waken you within!
For heere is your vnckle Standlye
Come your hall within.'
`If that be true, Ellen Butler,
These tydings you tell mee,
A hundred pound in good redd gold
This night will not borrow mee.'
Then came downe Ellen Butler
And into her fathers hall,
And then came downe Ellen Butler,
And shee was laced in pall.
`Where is thy father, Ellen Butler?
Haue done, and tell itt mee:'
`My father is now to London ridden,
As Christ shall haue part of mee.'
`Now nay, now nay, Ellen Butler,
for soe itt must not bee;
for ere I goe forth of this hall,
Your father I must see.'
The sought that hall then vp and downe
Theras Iohn Butler lay;
The sought that hall then vp and downe
Theras Iohn Butler lay.
faire him fall, litle Holcrofft!
Soe merrilye he kept the dore,
Till that his head from his shoulders
Came tumbling downe the floore.
`Yeeld thee, yeelde thee, Iohn Butler!
Yeelde thee now to mee!'
`I will yeelde me to my vnckle Stanlye,
And neere to false Peeter Lee.'
`A preist, a preist,' saies Ellen Butler,
`To housle and to shriue!
A preist, a preist,' sais Ellen Butler,
`While that my father is a man aliue!'
Then bespake him William Sauage,
A shames death may hee dye!
Sayes, He shall haue no other preist
But my bright sword and mee.
The Ladye Butler is to London rydden,
Shee had better haue beene att home;
Shee might haue beggd her owne marryed lord
Att her good brother Iohn.
And as shee lay in leeue London,
And as shee lay in her bedd,
Shee dreamed her owne marryed lord
Was swiminnge in blood soe red.
Shee called vp her merry men all,
Long ere itt was day;
Saies, Wee must ryde to Busye Hall,
With all speed that wee may.
Shee matt with three Kendall men,
Were ryding by the way:
`Tydings, tydings, Kendall men,
I pray you tell itt mee!'
`Heauy tydings, deare madam;
from you wee will not leane;
The worthyest knight in merry England,
Iohn Butler, Lord! hee is slaine!'
`Ffarewell, farwell, Iohn Butler!
for thee I must neuer see:
farewell, farwell, Busiye Hall!
For thee I will neuer come nye.'
Now Ladye Butler is to London againe,
In all the speed might bee,
And when shee came before her prince,
Shee kneeled low downe on her knee.
`A boone, a boone, my leege!' shee sayes,
`Ffor Gods loue grant itt mee!'
`What is thy boone,Lady Butler?
Or what wold thou haue of mee?
`What is thy boone, Lady Butler?
Or what wold thou haue of mee?'
`That false Peeres of Lee, and my brother Stanley,
And William Sauage, and all, may dye.'
`Come you hither, Lady Butler,
Come you ower this stone;
Wold you haue three men for to dye,
All for the losse off one?
`Come you hither, Lady Butler,
With all the speed you may;
If thou wilt come to London, Lady Butler,
Thou shalt goe home Lady Gray.'
(Who was the mother of the Ellen in this poem?")
Chris Phillips
Jay wrote:
> >
> > In 40:404, note 2, the author states that Lady Dacre "was the daughter
> > of Thomas, lord Dacre. In 1454 she married, as his second wife, Sir
> > John Butler or Botiler of Warrington (below, fol. 19b); and then
Margaret Stanley
>
> As in the poem:
>
> BUT word is come to Warrington,
> And Busye Hall is laid about;
> Sir Iohn Butler and his merry men
> Stand in full great doubt.
Is anyone able to comment on that interesting ballad, or to point towards a
commentary?
As Jay says, apparently it relates to John Butler of Bewsey (d. 1463) and
his wife Margaret, called Margaret Stanley, who afterwards remarried to
Henry, Lord Grey of Codnor (as discussed last October).
A check against Leo's database (http://www.genealogics.org/) shows that
Margaret, as daughter of Thomas Stanley of Lathom (d. 1458/9) - as seemed to
be the case - would have a brother John Stanley as referred to in the
ballad. And it shows a previous marriage of John Butler to a Margaret
Gerard. (Margaret Stanley couldn't be the mother of a daughter Ellen who was
adult in 1463, as she hadn't married John Butler until 1460 or later).
The point that puzzles me is that the ballad seems to describe Stanley as
John Butler's uncle, rather than his brother-in-law. Is this just confusion
or a corrupt text, or something, or is there some more complicated
explanation?
Chris Phillips
Peter Sutton
In VCH - A History of the County of Lancaster Volume 1, Archibald Constable
& Co Ltd, London - 1906, Pages 337 - 349
is a description of the Feudal Baronage, Butler - Baron of Warrington.
Page 347, note 13 says "The late Mr. Beamont, in Annals of Warrington,
303-23, disproves the ancient tradition of the murder of Sir John Butler in
his bed at Bewsey by 'Lord Stanley, Sir Piers Leigh and Mr. William Savage'
The different accounts of the tragedy are interesting and curious, but no
satisfactory theory as to the origin of the story has yet been put forth"
Sir John Butler was married 3 times:
1. To Margaret dau. of Peter Gerard Esq. of Kingsley (issue 2 sons & 4
daughters (not named)) she died before 1452.
2. In 1454 he married Isabel dau. of Thomas, Lord Dacre of Gillesland. This
marriage was disolved in 1458.
3. He married Margaret Stanley in 1460. He died in 1463.
Sir John's mother was Isabel Harrington.
Peter Sutton
Chris Phillips
Peter Sutton wrote:
> In VCH - A History of the County of Lancaster Volume 1, Archibald
Constable
> & Co Ltd, London - 1906, Pages 337 - 349
> is a description of the Feudal Baronage, Butler - Baron of Warrington.
>
> Page 347, note 13 says "The late Mr. Beamont, in Annals of Warrington,
> 303-23, disproves the ancient tradition of the murder of Sir John Butler
in
> his bed at Bewsey by 'Lord Stanley, Sir Piers Leigh and Mr. William
Savage'
> The different accounts of the tragedy are interesting and curious, but no
> satisfactory theory as to the origin of the story has yet been put forth"
Many thanks for that information. If the central incident in the ballad
never took place, perhaps it's not appropriate to put too much effort into
analysing the genealogical inconsistencies!
Chris Phillips
Jay
> Many thanks for that information. If the central incident in the ballad
> never took place, perhaps it's not appropriate to put too much effort into
> analysing the genealogical inconsistencies!
I wonder if the actual murder was discounted, or just the the
participants. if his birth date of 12 Mar 1429 is correct he was
quite young when he died, so either he got sick and died fairly young,
or someone did the man in. His father died young as well. Not long
lived souls these Lords of Warrington. (well correct that, his great
grandpa and great great grandpa lived to be ripe, er a ripe old age).
I guess we can consider the poem as mixing a few facts with some
creative fiction.
Since there were a number of daughters by Margaret Gerard their could
of have been an Ellen, John did have a sister named Ellen so naming a
daughter Ellen would make sense. Of course nobody seems to havbe made
any connections to any of his daughters but Margaret. I don't have
the ages of his two sons, but if he had six children by the time he
23, he must have married and got busy by the time he was 16 or 17. I
wonder what became of these sons, did they survive and have issue?
Did he have but the one son in his there year marriage to Margaret
Stanley or did he manage to have his third wife squeeze out two?