Turnham
Sutliff
Exchequer, p. 194 as holding three fees of Walkelini Mamignot (Walchelin
Maminot). He was survived by four sons: Stephen, Robert d. 1211, John and
Gilbert.
Edelina de Broc of Saltwood Castle, Kent. d. bef Nov. 1221. Her husband was
Stephen de Turnham d. 1214. They had five daughters: Eleanor, Alice,
Clemence, Mabel and Beatrix. I have admittedly not researched this
sufficiently, but am wondering if anyone knows if Stephen, son of Robert and
Stephen, husband of Edelina are the same man?
Thanks,
Henry Sutliff
Mardi Carter
of my sources that calls Stephen, who m. Edelina, son of Robert.
Mardi
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<cLQ4a.10850$YU4.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Doug Smith
here is what i have so far on the Turnhams:
Descendants of
NN de TURNHAM and (---) (---)
1. NN de1 TURNHAM. He married unknown.
Notes for NN de TURNHAM
DD, p 750.
Children of NN de TURNHAM were as follows:
+ 2 i Robert de2 TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent.
3 ii Michael de2 TURNHAM Seneschal of Juliana de Vere. Notes: DD, p
750.
Generation 2
2. Robert de2 TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent (NN de1), died 1174. He
married unknown.
Notes for Robert de TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent
DD, p 750.
Children of Robert de TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent were as follows:
+ 4 i Stephen de3 TURNHAM of Great Berwick, Salop, Seneschal of Anjou.
+ 5 ii Robert de3 TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent.
Generation 3
4. Stephen de3 TURNHAM of Great Berwick, Salop, Seneschal of Anjou
(Robert de2, NN de1), died 1214. He married Edeline de BROC, died
1221, daughter of Ranulf de BROC and Damietta GORRON.
Notes for Stephen de TURNHAM of Great Berwick, Salop, Seneschal of
Anjou
VCH Surrey III: 4, 84.
HKF I: 24, III: 69, 71, 182-183, 356.
DD, p 351.
CP VII pps 629-643.
Children of Stephen de TURNHAM of Great Berwick, Salop, Seneschal of
Anjou and Edeline de BROC were as follows:
+ 6 i Beatrix de4 TURNHAM.
7 ii Mabel de4 TURNHAM. He married Hamo de GATTON.
+ 8 iii Alianor de4 TURNHAM.
9 iv Alice de4 TURNHAM.
10 v Clemence de4 TURNHAM.
5. Robert de3 TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent (Robert de2, NN de1), died
1211. He married Joan de FOSSARD heiress of Mulgrave, daughter of
William II de FOSSARD Lord of Mulgrave.
Notes for Robert de TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent
DD, p 750.
Sanders *English Baronies* 66-67;
CP VIII:557-558.
Robert de Turnham (d.1211) m. Joan Fossard dau. and heir of William
II Fossard of Mulgrave, Yorks (d.1195) son & heir of William I
(d.about 1170) of the same son & heir of Robert (d.about 1135) of the
same son and heir of Nigel Fossard (d. about 1120) who held Mulgrave
at Domesday and who became a tenant-in-chief in 1088. He and Joan had
a daughter and heir, Isabel de Turnham (d.1237/38) who married (about
1214) Peter I de Mauley (d.1241) of Mulgrave. This pair were
grandparents of Peter III de Mauley first lord Mauley.
Children of Robert de TURNHAM of Thurnham, Kent and Joan de FOSSARD
heiress of Mulgrave were as follows:
+ 11 i Isabel de4 TURNHAM.
Generation 4
6. Beatrix de4 TURNHAM (Stephen de3, Robert de2, NN de1), died bef
1246. She married (1) Ralph de FAY of Bramley, Surrey, died 1223, son
of Ralph de FAY and Adelaide (Adele) D' AQUITAINE; (2) Hugh I de
NEVILLE of Essex, died bef 28 Jul 1234, son of Ralph de NEVILLE and
Daughter de RAFIN; (3), divorced Sir Hugh de PLAIZ, died bef 25 Aug
1244, son of Ralph de PLAIZ.
Children of Beatrix de TURNHAM and Ralph de FAY of Bramley, Surrey
were as follows:
+ 12 i Maud de5 FAY.
13 ii John de5 FAY, died 1241 (dsp).
+ 14 iii Philippa de5 FAY.
8. Alianor de4 TURNHAM (Stephen de3, Robert de2, NN de1), died bef
1220. She married Roger de LEYBOURNE, died abt 1251, son of Robert de
LEYBOURNE and Margaret (---).
Children of Alianor de TURNHAM and Roger de LEYBOURNE were as
follows:
+ 15 i Roger de5 LEYBOURNE of Elham.
11. Isabel de4 TURNHAM (Robert de3, Robert de2, NN de1), died bef 29
Jan 1237/38. She married abt 1214 Piers I de MAULEY Lord of Mulgrave,
Yorkshire, died bef 29 Dec 1241.
Children of Isabel de TURNHAM and Piers I de MAULEY Lord of Mulgrave,
Yorkshire were as follows:
+ 16 i Piers II de5 MAULEY.
17 ii Hilary de5 MAULEY. She married Peter III de BRUS, died 1272
(dsp), son of Peter II de BRUS Lord of Skelton and Helwise de
LANCASTER.
18 iii Stephen de5 MAULEY.
+ 19 iv Katherine5 MAULEY.
Generation 5
12. Maud de5 FAY (Beatrix de4 TURNHAM, Stephen de3, Robert de2, NN
de1), born 1182; died 1249. She married bef 1232 Roger de CLERE of
Brumlegh, Surrey and Ludborough, Co. Lincoln, died 1248, son of Ralph
II de CLERE of Sinnington and Shere and Margaret FITZHENRY.
Children of Maud de FAY and Roger de CLERE of Brumlegh, Surrey and
Ludborough, Co. Lincoln were as follows:
20 i Agatha de6 CLERE, died abt 1261.
14. Philippa de5 FAY (Beatrix de4 TURNHAM, Stephen de3, Robert de2, NN
de1). She married William de NEVILLE.
Children of Philippa de FAY and William de NEVILLE were as follows:
21 i Beatrice de6 NEVILLE.
15. Roger de5 LEYBOURNE of Elham (Alianor de4 TURNHAM, Stephen de3,
Robert de2, NN de1), died bef 12 Nov 1271. He married Eleanor de
FERRERS, born abt 1236 Of Derbyshire, England; died bef 2 Nov 1274,
daughter of Sir William III de FERRERS 5th Earl of Derby and Sibyl
MARSHALL.
Notes for Roger de LEYBOURNE of Elham
CP VII pps 629-643.
Children of Roger de LEYBOURNE of Elham and Eleanor de FERRERS were
as follows:
22 i William de6 LEYBOURNE Lord Leybourne, born Est 1250; died bef 20
Mar 1310. Notes: MC 5:16A. Louis Sorley, The Sorley Pedigrees, pps
39-50. CP VII pps 629-643.
23 ii Simon de6 LEYBOURNE, died bef 28 Nov 1308. Notes: CP VII pps
629-643.
24 iii Sir Roger II de6 LEYBOURNE, died bef Feb 1283/84. Notes: CP
VII pps 629-643. CP does not show a marriage to Margaret de Quincy.
16. Piers II de5 MAULEY (Isabel de4 TURNHAM, Robert de3, Robert de2,
NN de1), died bef 22 Jul 1279. He married (1) Joan de BRUS, died bef
13 Oct 1243 (dsp), daughter of Peter II de BRUS Lord of Skelton and
Helwise de LANCASTER; (2) nn (---).
Notes for Piers II de MAULEY
Sanders, I. J. , English Baronies: A Study of their Origin and
Descent, Oxford, 1960, pps 66-67.
Clay, pps 132-133.
CP VIII: 554-571
Children of Piers II de MAULEY and nn (---) were as follows:
25 i Piers III de6 MAULEY 1st Lord Mauley, born 29 Jul 1249; died 14
Sep 1308. Notes: Sanders, I. J. , English Baronies: A Study of their
Origin and Descent, Oxford, 1960, pps 66-67. CP VIII: 560-571. Clay,
pps 132-133. CP IX: 405-408.
19. Katherine5 MAULEY (Isabel de4 TURNHAM, Robert de3, Robert de2, NN
de1). She married Robert CONSTABLE, died 1267/71, son of William
CONSTABLE.
Children of Katherine MAULEY and Robert CONSTABLE were as follows:
26 i William6 CONSTABLE, died 1319.
27 ii Marmaduke6 CONSTABLE, died bef 27 Jun 1378.
D. Alden Smith, 317 S. Boylan Avenue, Raleigh NC 27603
Sutliff
looks correct to me. One slight correction and one addition. The correction
(which you may have already noticed) is that Mabel de Turnham is shown as a
man. The addition (if valid) is that Alice de Turnham is shown to have
married Sir Adam de Bendiges in the following source:
"Ancient Hampshire Families: Broc"
by William Smith Ellis
London:The Herald and Genealogist, 1870
(V:512)
Thanks very much,
HS
"Doug Smith" <al...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4fad4bf0.03022...@posting.google.com...
> here is what i have so far on the Turnhams:
<snip>
> Children of Stephen de TURNHAM of Great Berwick, Salop, Seneschal of
> Anjou and Edeline de BROC were as follows:
> + 6 i Beatrix de4 TURNHAM.
> 7 ii Mabel de4 TURNHAM. He married Hamo de GATTON.
> + 8 iii Alianor de4 TURNHAM.
> 9 iv Alice de4 TURNHAM.
> 10 v Clemence de4 TURNHAM.
>
<snip>
Sutliff
was of Barnham, Suffolk. Each left issue from other marriages than Beatrix.
Also FWIW I need to check my sources again, but Eleanor/Alianor may have
also been married first to Ralph FitzBernard of Bradwell, Essex, but this
seems unlikely as both men survived her. My guess is that it likely came
from the Ellis article previously cited.
HS
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BX75a.11572$_c6.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Sutliff
FitzBernard in a note at CP V:400. However, there still seems to be
something amiss as Ralph d. bef 1238 and Roger d. abt. 1251. Alianor is
shown as to have died before 1220 (CP VII:630). Ralph FitzBernard married
secondly Joan _____. There is no mention of a divorce from either, but
clearly this cannot fit for Alianor to have married both and to have
predeceased both men unless she was divorced from one of them.
HS
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:k885a.13265$YU4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Phillips
Hap Sutliff wrote [extracts from three posts]:
> Edelina de Broc of Saltwood Castle, Kent. d. bef Nov. 1221. Her husband
was
> Stephen de Turnham d. 1214. They had five daughters: Eleanor, Alice,
> Clemence, Mabel and Beatrix.
> I meant to add that Hugh Neville was of Hallingbury, Essex and Hugh de
Plaiz
> was of Barnham, Suffolk. Each left issue from other marriages than
Beatrix.
> Also FWIW I need to check my sources again, but Eleanor/Alianor may have
> also been married first to Ralph FitzBernard of Bradwell, Essex, but this
> seems unlikely as both men survived her. My guess is that it likely came
> from the Ellis article previously cited.
> An addition to my correction. Alianor de Turnham is shown as wife of Ralph
> FitzBernard in a note at CP V:400. However, there still seems to be
> something amiss as Ralph d. bef 1238 and Roger d. abt. 1251. Alianor is
> shown as to have died before 1220 (CP VII:630). Ralph FitzBernard married
> secondly Joan _____. There is no mention of a divorce from either, but
> clearly this cannot fit for Alianor to have married both and to have
> predeceased both men unless she was divorced from one of them.
Yes, according the the CP article on Leyburn which you cite, the wardship of
the heir of Robert de Leyburn was granted to Stephen de Thurnham in 1199,
and Roger de Leyburn in 1214 had possession of the manor of [Great] Berwick
[Shropshire], which he had with Eleanor, daughter and coheir of Stephen
(although further down the account says only that Roger and Eleanor were
married by 1219).
So if it's correct that Eleanor was dead by 1220, it seems to be impossible
that she was, as CP vol. 5, p. 400, says, also married to Ralph FitzBernard
(d. by 1238). Ralph's son John left a son and heir Ralph who was said to be
13, 14, or 15 in 1259, so we might guess that John would be born in the
1220s. John does not appear to have been (as CP says), the son of Ralph's
subsequent wife, Joan the daughter of Robert Aguillon:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol5.shtml#fitzbernard
Indeed, footnote n of CP vol. 7, p. 630 (Leyburn), says:
"The husbands of the other 4 daughters [of Stephen de Thurnham] were Thomas
de Bavelingham, Adam de Bending, Ralph son of Bernard of Tong, and Ralph de
Faye (Coram Rege Roll, Mich. 8-9 Hen. III, rot. 7)."
So it looks as though Ralph FitzBernard was married to one of Eleanor's four
sisters. Hopefully the references given in the Leyburn or FitzBernard
accounts should clear this up. As the daughters were coheirs, if Ralph's son
John was a son of the marriage, the FitzBernards would presumably have
acquired some land as a result, as the Leyburns acquired Great berwick (CP
vol. 7, pp. 630, 640).
Chris Phillips
Doug Smith
Poor Hamo i must apologise to him for my poor typing skills
emasculating him.
See Chris Phillips additions and corrections to CP for discussion
about the wives of Ralph FitzBernard.
Doug
Rosie Bevan
It was Ralph fitz Bernard who was married to Eleanor. Robert de Leyburne had
evidently married another daughter of Stephen de Turnham, and she was dead
by 1220. Whether or not she was also named Eleanor is unclear.
The evidence for this comes from a curia regis suit in the Trinity term of
1220, in which Edelina de Broc sued Richard Malherbe for 4L 18s. rent, and
William de Bathonia for 25 acres of meadow and 12 1/2 of wood with
appurtenances in Artingdon, Surrey. They in turn called to warrant the heirs
of Stephen de Turnham who were Thomas de Bavelingham and Mabel his wife,
Adam de Bendenges and Alice his wife, Ralph de Fay and Beatrice his wife,
Roger de Leyburn, Ralph fitz Bernard and Alianore his wife.
"Et ipsi Ricardus et Willelmus vacaverunt inde ad warrantum heredes Stephani
de Turnham quondam viri ipsius Edeline, scilicet Thomam de Bavelingeham et
Mabiliam uxorem ejus Adam de Bendeng' et Aliciam uxorem ejus Radulfum de Fay
et Beariciam uxorem ejus Rogerum de Leyburn' Radulfum filium Bernardi et
Alienoram uxorem ejus..."
[CRR v.IX, p.85]
VCH Surrey v.3 p.4, in a section dealing with this case, states that Eleanor
was wife of Roger de Leyburne and uses as a source Maitland, Bracton's
Notebook, 1410 ; Excerpta e Rot. Fin. (rec. Com.), ii, 25. As the Roger in
the curia regis roll is without a wife, the obvious conclusion to draw is
that he was the representative of the unnamed daughter i.e her son and heir.
If she was indeed named Eleanor, it would seem there were two in the family.
The curious thing here is that Clemence, daughter of Stephen de Turnham is
not mentioned, even though she was alive in 1220 and married to Wandril de
Curceles, attorney for Robert de Turneham and Joan Fossard, and had two
later husbands [EYC v.2 no.995]. Artindon had descended via Edeline de Broc
so the obvious inference is that Clemence was not a daughter of Edeline.
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:b33ni8$60b$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Cristopher Nash
>6. Beatrix de4 TURNHAM (Stephen de3, Robert de2, NN de1), died bef
>1246. She married (1) Ralph de FAY of Bramley, Surrey, died 1223, son
>of Ralph de FAY and Adelaide (Adele) D' AQUITAINE
Sorry, Doug - in last year's elab. discussions of Ralph de Faye,
though I was aware of the tradition giving him as "1st cousin of
Eleanor of Aquitaine" I seem to have missed the evidence for >Ralph
de FAY and Adelaide (Adele) D'AQUITAINE<. Could you possibly fill me
in?
Cheers,
Cris
--
Doug Smith
Hi Cris
See John Ravilious' post dated 2001-11-27 "Faye et Ventadour?"
That said, it appears that there was a Raoul/Ralph married to Adelaide
who dsp and married 2nd Elizabeth de Faye la Vineuse. It is unclear
to me if the Ralph who I married incorrectly above is the same as the
Ralph who married Beatrix de Turnham or is his father.
1. I have the Raoul who married twice dying bef 1190.
2. A son Ralph dying bef 1210 (wife unknown).
3. A son Ralph dying 1223 marrying Beatrix de Turnham.
Not clear if 2 and 3 are the same person and one of the death dates is
wrong. Sources are conflicting here. Sorry about my mixup.
The relationshiop to Eleanor of Aquitaine goes through Dangereuse de
l'Isle Bouchard.
Doug
Mardi Carter
transcribed at <www.jbending.demon.co.uk/asundry.htm>. The Testa de
Nevill apparently states that Alice de Turnham is wife of Adam de
Bendeng. Unfortunately, the transcription does not give the actual
location of this statement in the Testa de Nevill.
Mardi
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<BX75a.11572$_c6.11...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...