Henry Project: Adélaïde, wife of Hugues Capet

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John P. Ravilious

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Jun 22, 2010, 4:41:25 PM6/22/10
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Tuesday, 22 June, 2010


Dear Stewart,

My thanks for your message re: the updated Henry Porject pages,
and the hard work that is evident.

In the current version, you show the parentage of Adelaide, wife
of Hugues 'Capet', king of France with the identification of Guillaume
III of Aquitaine (I of Poitou) [d. 963] as her father as being
"probable", and Gerloc/Adele of Normandy as her mother as
"possible" [1]. In addition to the excellent sources which you cite
that bear on the matter, there is another of value. In the Vita
Sancti Edwardi Regis et Confessoris, Abbot Aelred of Rievaulx wrote of
affairs following the accession of King Edward to the English throne
in 1042:

" The report of this felicity, as Edward began to govern, was
carried to certain neighboring kingdoms. Kings and princes, moved by
admiration at such a shift in affairs, were happy to enter a pact with
such a king, to join him in friendship, and to establish peace. The
Roman Emperor, rejoicing in the king's great prosperity, sent
messengers north and joined him to himself in friendship and
confederation; the king's nephew, Edmund Ironside's son - one of the
two whom Cnut had condemned to exile - had married the emperor's
kinswoman. The king of the Franks, a near relative in blood, became
still nearer by the intervention of peace. " [2]

Unless there is another proposal to advance, it would appear
that Henry I of France and Edward 'the Confessor' of England were 3rd
cousins - 'near relatives' in Aelred's view:

Rollo
____________I_________
I I
William 'Longespee Gerloc/Adele
C of Rouen/D of Normandy = Guillaume III/I of
Aquitaine
I I
I I
Richard I Adelaide = Hugues
'Capet
C of Rouen/D of Normandy K of France 987-996
I I
I I
Emma = Ethelred II Robert II
K of England K of France 996-1031
I I
I I
Edward 'the Confessor' Henry I
K of England K of France 1031-1060
1042-1066


While not conclusive, the evidence presented in Aelred's account
provides further support for the Norman ancestry alleged for Adelaide.

Cheers,

John


Notes

[1] The parentage of Adelaide is described thusly:

" Probable father: Guillaume I (III) "Tête-d'Étoupe", d. 963,
count of Poitou, duke of Aquitaine.
No definitive solution is possible on the known evidence, but this
parentage is more likely than the alternatives. See the Commentary
section for a detailed discussion of the parentage of Adélaïde.
Possible mother: Gerloc/Adèle, daughter of Rollo of Normandy
"

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/adela002.htm


[2] Marsha L. Dutton, ed. (Jane Patricia Freeland, trans.), Aelred
of Rievaulx: The Historical Works (Kalamazoo: Cistercian Publications,
2005), p. 141.

Peter Stewart

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Jun 22, 2010, 9:26:24 PM6/22/10
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"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:72e35c2a-c0b4-46e9...@y4g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...

I don't speak for Stewart, of course, but I think his distinction between
"probable" and "possible" in this case is judicious.

The evidence that Hugo Capet's wife was a daughter of Guilhem III, duke of
Aquitaine (Guilhem I as count of Poitou) is late and unsatisfactory but
nonetheless straightforward enough.

The evidence that she was related to the ducal family of Normandy is more
satisfactory and also straightforward.

However, that this relationship came about through Adela/Gerloc is somewhat
less satisfactory, and muddied to a degree by contradictions in the sources
for this mysterious personage.

Dudo says that Guilhem III proposed his own marriage to a sister of William
Longsword of Normandy in the course of a gathering to hunt mating deer near
Rouen, attended amongst others by Hugo Capet's father Hugo Magnus described
as duke and leading man of the kingdom - the title and position were
accorded to him ca 936. William reportedly called his sister a 'girl' at the
time, suggesting that she was perhaps ca 14 and born well after the
conversion of her father Rollo to Christianity. Yet William of Jumièges
later gave her the pagan name Gerloc, which appears rather anomalous
considering that even William (who must have been ca 20 years older than
her) never occurs with any Norse name.

I would not accept the unsupported word of Dudo for anything at all,
including his own existence. He was an outstanding nincompoop, and relied
for this period on the memories of people who clearly did not have the story
of Rollo's life and family straight in the first place.

Dudo's contemporary Ademar of Chabannes, who certainly knew more about the
ducal family in Aquitaine though not that in Normandy, says that Rollo's
daughter married Ebles Manzer and was mother of Guilhem III/I ("filius
Rannulfi, Eblus manzer, Arvernis et Pictavis simul comes promotus
est...Acceptaque in conjugium Adala, filia Rosi [sic] Rotomagensis comitis.,
genuit ex ea Willelmum Caput Stupe.") The monks of Saint-Maixent, where
Guilhem's younger brother Ebles was abbot from 936 (NB around the time that
Dudo placed the marriage to Guilhem III/I), followed Ademar and made him
also a son of Ebles Manzer and the daughter of Rollo ("Eblus filius
Ramnulfi...acceptaque in conjugio Adela, filia Rolli Rothomagensis, genuit
ex ea Willelmum Caput Stupæ et episcopum Ebulum".)

We don't know much about the marriages of Ebles Manzer - in the 890s he
appears to have had a wife named Aremburgis and by February 911 he was
married to a lady named Emillana, probably the same as the Countess Alaina
who later became a nun. Guilhem III/I occurs with a wife named Adeleidis in
the early 950s. There is no evidence apart from Dudo, Ademar and William of
Jumièges that any of these women (or perhaps another who does not occur in
charters) was a daughter of Rollo and also had the name Gerloc.

There are such wide gaps in our knowledge of these genealogies that trying
to fill in a "Norman ancestry alleged for Adelaide" from the fact that her
grandson was somehow related to Edward the Confessor is a stretch too far.

Peter Stewart

M Sjostrom

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Jun 23, 2010, 3:32:01 AM6/23/10
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so, both Guilhem III of Aquitaine and abbot Ebles *could* chronologically
have been born of the wife Emiliane/Alaina, both in say the 910s, and still
both to be adults by c936
and if to rely on that either or both of them were maternal grandsons of
Rollo, then it was specifically Emiliane who actually was Rollo's daughter,
born almost some twenty years earlier than Rollo received his investiture
and being marriageable already almost at that time (because, Guilhem III
needs to be born in the 910s, and rather in early 910s than late).
I would not hold any good likelihood for a wife already adult in 890s to
been daughter of Rollo. She would simply be too early chronologically to be
his daughter, and for such a marriage and the political alliance to have
taken place. Rollo surely was not in position to have alliance relations
with a southern-french duke in the 890s, seeing that Rollo's investiture to
Rouen so well attested to about 911.
(in the 890s, Rollo likely was not old enough himself to have had a
marriageable daughter. Rollo's own birth would imo rather be snugger around
865..875)
So, Emiliane would have been born a pagan Viking girl, but received a
christian baptism (and a new, western name) presumably prior to her marriage
to Aquitaine. Could Alaine as name be a reflection of something Viking...?

Guilhem III being nephew of William I of Normandy, would be onomastically
nice.

----

if Guilhem III was nephew of William III of Normandy, then Dudo's account
for marriages planned in that about 936 hunting trek situation, get to odd
light. On the other hand, Guilhem III to marry in about 937 to SOME lady,
would actually be a good timing for his child-producing marriage (obviously,
he could not have married his own mother or his half-aunt). But the Dodo
account could be one of those distortions of real events, mingling at least
two different marriages to one spot. Perhaps the uncle really was arranging
a marriage for his nephew in c936, and in this sense the bride was
originating from lairs of Normandy or Normandy's allies. It's only then so
that the wife Adeleidis (attested as wife in 950s) would have to been of
some other precise parentage than the Rollo lineage.

----

this lady, representing that she is great-great-grandmother of Henri I of
France (via his Provence mother), could she have been a descendant of Rollo?
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00094930&tree=LEO
and actually thusly source of kinship between the Confessor and Henri....

-------------

Stewart Baldwin writes about Hildegarde of Burgundy's Aquitaine marriage
something with which I fully agree: the husband and wife being related in
degree 3:4 (second cousins, once-removed) and canonically illicit, the
argument "is not conclusive, because such consanguineous marriages did take
place from time to time". [and, also, "The consanguinity argument still has
the reasonable explanation that consanguineous marriages slipped through the
system from time to time"]
In my view, it was that the canonical impediment, prior to changes of canon
law in 1215, when marriages up to 7th degree of consanguinity still were
illicit, was perceived unreasonable, and was not obeyed well. 7th degree is
such a wide circle and has so much parts commonly outside normal knowledge
of one's kinships that it is easy to see why some cases were not even known
and anyway this wide prohibition had the ingredients of being really
unreasonable.
Actually, what I know, it seems that this 7th-degree prohibition was
explicitly thought of and obeyed only rarely - the case of henri i and his
Kiev wife being one of the rare good examples of awareness about the point.

I believe it was then much better perceived as reasonable when since 1215,
the prohibition extended only to 4th degree. These kinspeople (up to that
width) were much more common to be remembered in such kinship societies
(even in our today societies, people may be generally aware of existences of
their all third cousins). I have understood that many historical instances
since 1215 reflected that the 4th-degree prohibition actually was mnotre
readily obeyed than the earlier 7th-degree pohibition.

I remind that before 1215, there was no knowledge of the 4th degree being
the limit, it becoming the rule only at that time - so no wonder that if the
rule of the earlier time was broken as unreasonable, then it occasionally
was broken in a way which also broke the then-anachronistic rule of 4th
degree.

---------------

I guess Stewart Baldwin is expected sooner or later to make pages about
Guilhem III of Aquitaine and his wife and his parents. Seeing how probable
they are to belong to ancestry of Henry II.

M Sjostrom

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Jun 23, 2010, 4:28:51 AM6/23/10
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I presume that February 911 means -in accordance with the old year-count
changing the year at eastertide- that specific February which was AFTER
December 911.

If so, then actually things go snugly: Rollaug the viking fights the battle
of Chartres in spring 911 against the french, where Ebles is prominently
among the french and as enemy of Rollaug. Then the french reach a deal with
Rollaug in autumn 911, and marriages were to ensue as seals of new
alliances.

The next february, duke Ebles already has a new, second wife, daughter of
his erstwhile enemy Rollaug. This girl's possible former pagan name were
Geirlaug, Gerloc. She got baptised as Emiliana. The marriage obviously seals
a truce between former enemies.

>From this marriage would have been born Guilhem III
whose name was gotten in part from Aquitanian relatives, but also in part in
honor of maternmal family, Geirlaug having the brother William. The Poitevin
boy could have become Rollaug if maternal grandfather's name would been used
directly, but perhaps they thought (for the boy's future) William to be more
palatable in Aquitaine than the Norse Rollo.

-----

by the way, I wonder, are there really any attestations and factual
knowledge in the 'Srnec's creation in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gerloc&oldid=75815991
when it claims that Geirlaug was baptized at Rouen in 912 and got the name
Adela.
?


2010/6/23 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>

John P. Ravilious

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Jun 23, 2010, 12:08:05 PM6/23/10
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On Jun 22, 9:26 pm, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:72e35c2a-c0b4-46e9...@y4g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
> Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

=================


Dear Peter,

Thanks for your helpful reply. The details and observations re:
Dudo, vs. Adhemar de Chabannes, are much appreciated.

I would agree that the gaps in the ancestry of Henry I of France
would by themselves give pause in trying to solve this particular
riddle. At the same time, the ancestry of Edward the Confessor
narrows the possibilities. In the male line, Edward had 3rd cousins
among descendants of the later Carolingians and the Salian emperors,
but no good candidates as ancestors of Henry I of France. Edward's
maternal Norman ancestors included the dukes (counts of Rouen)
themselves, and a host of Norman and/or northern French too low-born
to consider as (early) Capetian ancestors. The generation of William
'Longsword' as either sibling or parent appears to be the only
reasonable generation at which this link would be found.

Given the foregoing - an analysis of the chronology
notwithstanding - it would appear based on the preferred testimony of
Adhemar that Guillaume III of Aquitaine (I of Poitou) was more likely
the grandson than the son-in-law of Rollo. This would make Edward the
Confessor and Henry I of France 3rd cousins 1x removed. Aelred of
Rievaulx was evidently aware of such a kinship in the 12th century,
well enough to make note of it.

Cheers,

John

Stewart Baldwin

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Jun 23, 2010, 10:55:31 PM6/23/10
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John P. Ravilious <the...@aol.com> wrote:

>... In the Vita


>Sancti Edwardi Regis et Confessoris, Abbot Aelred of Rievaulx wrote of
>affairs following the accession of King Edward to the English throne
>in 1042:

> ".... The king of the Franks, a near relative in blood, became


>still nearer by the intervention of peace. "

Another possibility has occurred to me. Keats-Rohan has conjectured that
Edward's mother Emma of Normandy was the daughter of Richard I not by
Gunnor, but by his wife Emma, sister of Hugh Capet [TAG 72: 188, 190]. If
this were true, it would make Edward and Henry I of France second cousins. I
have generally been dubious about this conjecture, but it seems worth
considering.

Stewart Baldwin


Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2010, 12:54:28 AM6/24/10
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"Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:LpWdnRSh0IA-VL_R...@earthlink.com...

With this I can't agree - although Dudo is far from being a reliable source
for the time of Rollo and his offspring, I don't consider that we can
reasonably disregard what he wrote about Hugo Capet's sister Emma on the
direct information of people who would have known about her.

Dudo clearly stated that she died without issue, and that her bereaved
husband offered to return possessions held in her own right to her brother
for distribution to the Church and to the poor - Richard eventually carried
this out himself, which strongly supports the claim that Emma had no child
to inherit from her ["Emma, uxor ejus, filia scilicet Hugonis magni ducis,
defungitur absque liberis, et hujus desolationis mostus detrimento, misit ad
Hugonem, fratrem defunctæ uxoris suæ, ut quosdam vernulas domus suæ mitteret
sibi, qui, quæ possederet soror sua jure femineo, erogarent sacrosanctæ
Ecclesiæ et pauperibus. Hugo vero dux remisit ad Ricardem ducem et
patricium, ut quidquid suppeditaret sibi voluntas faceret libere ex omnibus.
Tunc Ricardus, affluentis largitatis dux præpotentissimus, tanti thesauri
munera per universas totius Franciæ et Northmanniæ ecclesias dispertivit."]

It was not unusual - indeed it was required - that a deceased wife's name
should be given to the daughter of a later spouse, as Emma's name was given
to Gunnor's child, an important point which Keats-Rohan did not address
(from memory).

Also William of Jumieges explicitly said that the younger Emma who married
King Æthelred was a daughter of Gunnor ["uirginem nomine Gunnor.[Ricardus]
desponsauit. Ex qua filios genuit.necnon filias tres. Quarum una nomine Emma
Hedeldredo regi Anglorum nupsit, de qua idem rex Edwardum regem necnon
Aluredum, Goduini comitis longo post dolis interemptum, procreauit"].

My hunch is that the relationship between Henri I and Edward the Confessor
came about through the father of Hugo Capet's wife Adalais, whom I do not
believe to have been Guilhem III/I of Aquitaine/Poitou - but the specific
conjecture behind this can wait for a more detailed treatment than I can
give it now.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

M Sjostrom

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Jun 24, 2010, 2:33:58 AM6/24/10
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the idea "relationship came about through the father of Hugo Capet's wife
Adalais, ... not been Guilhem III/I of Aquitaine/Poitou" sounds intriguing.
Stewart Baldwin's best likelihood for thos would then be discarded and a
filiation accepted which he has assessed as less likely.

who would the father be:
1) Edward the Elder? this would be ridiculous, surely. Aelis surely cannot
been anglo-saxon...
2) William I of Normandy: really.... well, sounds so unlikely. Would THIS
William really be the 'marquis Guillaume'
3) 'the prince near Alps'. o gosh. now this elusive personality comes to
useful use :)
4) the carolingian Louis IV l'outremer. this it really must be :) imperial
wetnurse and all... :) the problem though would be that wife of Hugo Capet
surely would been explicitly mentioned as daughter of Capet's predecessor
dynasty as kings....
5) somehow Heribert de Meaux got his anglosaxon wife pregnant at a mature
age, and this child it will be :)

intriguing, but it all then spreads to a swamp of possibilities...

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2010, 3:15:24 AM6/24/10
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"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.459.12773612...@rootsweb.com...

None of the above is even remotely possible - the speculation I was
referring to is not one that has been assessed by Stewart Baldwin, or by
anyone else to my knowledge.

Incidentally, the charter I mentioned before where Count Ebles of Poitou
occurred with his wife Emillana was dated "in mense februar., anno XIIII
regnante Karolo rege", i.e. in the fourteenth regnal year of Charles III,
that is, counting from January 898 making it February 911 by modern
reckoning.

And the name Guilhem in the family of the dukes of Aquitaine does not need
to be explained by a connection to William of Normandy - the first two dukes
of Aquitaine were Guilhem the Pious, founder of Cluny, and his namesake
grandson. Although belonging to a different male line, the renown of Guilhem
I was sufficient to account for the reappearance of his name. (William of
Normandy might have been baptised as his godson, or at least in his honour,
for all we know - anyway the name would not have been given to Rollo's son
at random in the lifetime of that celebrated ruler.)

Peter Stewart

M Sjostrom

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Jun 24, 2010, 2:19:02 PM6/24/10
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>
>
> the renown of Guilhem
> I was sufficient to account for the reappearance of his name. (William of
> Normandy might have been baptised as his godson, or at least in his
honour,
> for all we know - anyway the name would not have been given to Rollo's son
> at random in the lifetime of that celebrated ruler.)
>
>


William of Normandy was born 'overseas', birthed by a christian mother, and
quite obviously years before his father became Duke and baptized and before
they settled to live in France
Vilhelm was a germanic name and in use in such regions near danes as his
father probably came from - plus there is no mention that the boy got his
name only when they settled to France

I think any possibility that Guilhem of Aquitaine could have been his
godfather, is really remote at most.

Firstly, at the time before settling to live in France, there is no real
connection to Aquitaine, nor is such even really plausible.
Probably the boy was named Vilhelm (William) already as newborn.
the child William might have been even baptized already as newborn, seeing
that his mother was attestedly christian.
At such time, Rollo and his family would been despised in France. He has
plundered, but had not yet made that submission.

In the less likely situation that the boy would have gotten a new baptismal
name at the time when his father managed to settle to France as fiefholder
of Rouen etc,
still there appears no such connection of theirs to the then Duke of
Aquitaine which would have a good likelihood to lead to godfathership.

M Sjostrom

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Jun 24, 2010, 4:46:12 PM6/24/10
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if the charter's dating means that February which was two months after the
year 910, and before the easter of 911
(where count Ebles of Poitou and his wife Emillana) [was dated "in mense

februar., anno XIIII regnante Karolo rege", i.e. in the fourteenth regnal
year of Charles III - that is, counting from January 898 making it February
911 by modern reckoning]
then Rollo's battle in Chartres was not yet taken place, and Ebles was
Rollo's enemy.

In that case, Ebles' that (new) wife hardly were a daughter of Rollo.

If Ademar de Chabannes was right, then it must be that Ebles had yet one
wife more, a daughter of Rollo. And that his son Guilhem III was born of the
daughter of Rollom as Ademar reports. Guilhem needs to be born practically
before c915 anyway, otherwise his adult career is going to be in
inconsistencies.
Perhaps Emillana deceased soon and already in 912 Ebles married Rollo's
daughter...

This descent all hinges on Ademar - and the sort of distorted support it
receives from Dudo.

In my view, all the support for the Norman lady marriage of Ebles male
dynast is so strong that a marriage so happened, and presumably in the way
Ademar places it - i.e Ebles married Rollo's daughter and had guilhem with
her.

2010/6/23 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>

do I understand correctly that really, all other alternatives for the father
of Adelaide, wife of Hugo Capet,
than Guilhem III of Aquitaine and Poitou
are much less likely than him.
stewart baldwin appears to assess so.

Let's see what happens with speculations, but.... probably all other
candidates are flights of fancy. I certainly do not propose any other man to
that genealogical spot with anything but doubt and as humorous possibilities
Probably not even P.Stewart's candidate....

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2010, 7:22:15 PM6/24/10
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Comments interspersed.

"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.466.12774035...@rootsweb.com...


> >
>>
>> the renown of Guilhem
>> I was sufficient to account for the reappearance of his name. (William of
>> Normandy might have been baptised as his godson, or at least in his
> honour,
>> for all we know - anyway the name would not have been given to Rollo's
>> son
>> at random in the lifetime of that celebrated ruler.)
>>
>>
>
>
> William of Normandy was born 'overseas', birthed by a christian mother,
> and
> quite obviously years before his father became Duke and baptized and
> before
> they settled to live in France

Dudo said that William's mother was Frankish ("matre Francigena") and that
he was born in Rouen ("Willelmus.Rotomagensi urbe exstitit oriundus");
according to the Planctus he was born overseas ("Hic in orbe transmarino
natus"), his father was still a pagan ("patre in errore paganorum
permanente"), his mother was a Christian ("matre quoque consignata alma
fide") and he was baptised ("sacra fuit lotus unda"). There is no statement
in the Planctus that either his birth or his baptism took place "quite
obviously years before" Rollo's conversion or even before the invasion of
Neustria - his mother might have stayed overseas while his father was doing
battle against the Franks, and she might have brought him as an infant or
still unbaptised boy into Neustria around 911 for all we know.

> Vilhelm was a germanic name and in use in such regions near danes as his
> father probably came from - plus there is no mention that the boy got his
> name only when they settled to France

Nor is there any record that he got the name William overseas. From what we
know of Viking warlords, they were most probably not inclinced to give over
authority in the naming of their sons to foreign women, much less to have
them raised from birth in the religion of their own enemies.

> I think any possibility that Guilhem of Aquitaine could have been his
> godfather, is really remote at most.
>
> Firstly, at the time before settling to live in France, there is no real
> connection to Aquitaine, nor is such even really plausible.

I did not suggest a connection of Rollo himself to Aquitaine, although
Viking invaders were certainly there before 911.

> Probably the boy was named Vilhelm (William) already as newborn.
> the child William might have been even baptized already as newborn, seeing
> that his mother was attestedly christian.
> At such time, Rollo and his family would been despised in France. He has
> plundered, but had not yet made that submission.

Are there other examples to support this alleged "probability" of a
Christian mother baptising the son of an unconverted Viking lord with a
Germanic name?

> In the less likely situation that the boy would have gotten a new
> baptismal
> name at the time when his father managed to settle to France as fiefholder
> of Rouen etc,
> still there appears no such connection of theirs to the then Duke of
> Aquitaine which would have a good likelihood to lead to godfathership.

Guilhem the Pious had a highly relevant connection of his own in Neustria -
he was lay abbot of La Croix-Saint-Ouen.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Jun 24, 2010, 7:39:28 PM6/24/10
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"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.467.12774123...@rootsweb.com...

> if the charter's dating means that February which was two months after the
> year 910, and before the easter of 911
> (where count Ebles of Poitou and his wife Emillana) [was dated "in mense
> februar., anno XIIII regnante Karolo rege", i.e. in the fourteenth regnal
> year of Charles III - that is, counting from January 898 making it
> February
> 911 by modern reckoning]
> then Rollo's battle in Chartres was not yet taken place, and Ebles was
> Rollo's enemy.
>
> In that case, Ebles' that (new) wife hardly were a daughter of Rollo.
>
> If Ademar de Chabannes was right, then it must be that Ebles had yet one
> wife more, a daughter of Rollo. And that his son Guilhem III was born of
> the
> daughter of Rollom as Ademar reports. Guilhem needs to be born practically
> before c915 anyway, otherwise his adult career is going to be in
> inconsistencies.
> Perhaps Emillana deceased soon and already in 912 Ebles married Rollo's
> daughter...
>
> This descent all hinges on Ademar - and the sort of distorted support it
> receives from Dudo.
>
> In my view, all the support for the Norman lady marriage of Ebles male
> dynast is so strong that a marriage so happened, and presumably in the way
> Ademar places it - i.e Ebles married Rollo's daughter and had guilhem with
> her.

Hostages were taken on both sides - conceivably a daughter of Rollo _could_
have been converted before her father and married to make a local peace
before the wider settlement of 911/12.

The widow of Ebles Manzer was apparently the countess named Alaina who
became a nun while his son Guilhem III/I was ruling Aquitaine. She was
probably Guihem's mother since she subscribed a charter with him ("S.
Willelmi comitis. S. Alaine comitisse, que fuit monacha"). Whether or not
this was the same woman as Emillana is uncertain - such unusual names were
sometimes given in forms as disparate as these - and of course we do not
know if Guilhem was born before or after February 911.

Although I think Ademar of Chabannes and the Poitevin monastic chroniclers
who followed him are more likely to have been right than Dudo about the
ruler of Aquitaine who married Rollo's daughter, they might all be wrong.

Peter Stewart

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jun 24, 2010, 7:40:35 PM6/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
it seems I forgot to mention (or I assumed it mentioned clearly enough in
linked materials) one of my main grounds for estimating that William was
born clearly before that 911.
namely, it was about 928 or so when Rollo ceded the power to him, and it
looks to me that he was not an adolescent any longer - I would rather think
that his doings indicate he was a full grown man. Besides his demise was 942
or so, and not as quite young.... also this indicates birth clearly earlier
than 911.
Of course this is merely an estimate, but William could been something
around 10 years old in 911.
(and the birth overseas also indicates it was before the vital event of 911)


2010/6/24 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>

>
> if the charter's dating means that February which was two months after the
> year 910, and before the easter of 911
> (where count Ebles of Poitou and his wife Emillana) [was dated "in mense
> februar., anno XIIII regnante Karolo rege", i.e. in the fourteenth regnal
> year of Charles III - that is, counting from January 898 making it February
> 911 by modern reckoning]
> then Rollo's battle in Chartres was not yet taken place, and Ebles was
> Rollo's enemy.
>
> In that case, Ebles' that (new) wife hardly were a daughter of Rollo.
>
> If Ademar de Chabannes was right, then it must be that Ebles had yet one
> wife more, a daughter of Rollo. And that his son Guilhem III was born of the
> daughter of Rollom as Ademar reports. Guilhem needs to be born practically
> before c915 anyway, otherwise his adult career is going to be in
> inconsistencies.
> Perhaps Emillana deceased soon and already in 912 Ebles married Rollo's
> daughter...
>
> This descent all hinges on Ademar - and the sort of distorted support it
> receives from Dudo.
>
> In my view, all the support for the Norman lady marriage of Ebles male
> dynast is so strong that a marriage so happened, and presumably in the way
> Ademar places it - i.e Ebles married Rollo's daughter and had guilhem with
> her.
>
>
>
>

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 24, 2010, 7:59:57 PM6/24/10
to pss...@bigpond.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 6/24/2010 4:41:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pss...@bigpond.com writes:


> The widow of Ebles Manzer was apparently the countess named Alaina who
> became a nun while his son Guilhem III/I was ruling Aquitaine. She was
> probably Guihem's mother since she subscribed a charter with him ("S.
> Willelmi comitis. S. Alaine comitisse, que fuit monacha"). Whether or not
> this was the same woman as Emillana is uncertain - such unusual names were
>
> sometimes given in forms as disparate as these - and of course we do not
> know if Guilhem was born before or after February 911. >>


I'm not sure these forms are disparate. If we divide the name as
Em-Ilana, then we can easily form Alaina out of the ending.

Beatrice becomes Trish
Margaret becomes Greta

Alaina would be a familiar form. It seems like a possible explanation for
this change.

Peter Stewart

unread,
Jun 24, 2010, 9:10:40 PM6/24/10
to

"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.474.12774228...@rootsweb.com...

> it seems I forgot to mention (or I assumed it mentioned clearly enough in
> linked materials) one of my main grounds for estimating that William was
> born clearly before that 911.
> namely, it was about 928 or so when Rollo ceded the power to him, and it
> looks to me that he was not an adolescent any longer - I would rather
> think
> that his doings indicate he was a full grown man.

Dudo says that William was adolescent at the time of the handover from Rollo
("Rotbertus [that is, Rollo], Northmannorum patricius, grandæva ætate
nimioque labore præliorum consumptus, convocatis Dacorum Britonumque
principibus, dedit omnem terram suæ ditionis Willelmo, Poppæ filio, atque,
inter manus Willelmi adolescentis manus suas mittentes"). If correct, and
following the conventional definition of "adolescentia" this would mean
William was between 14 & 28 years old at the time.

When this took place exactly is unknown - Rollo was still ruling the Normans
at Rouen early in 928 according to Flodoard, when he held Odo of Vermandois
hostage ("Filius tamen Heriberti, Odo, quem Rollo habebat obsidem"); William
had been acting on his father's behalf in 927 ("Karolus igitur cum Heriberto
colloquium petit Nordmannorum, ad castellum quod Auga vocatur, ibique se
filius Rollonis Karolo committit et amicitiam firmat cum Heriberto"), and he
was clearly the Norman ruler by 933 ("Willelmus, princeps Nordmannorum,
eidem regi [Rodulfo] se committit; cui etiam rex dat terram Brittonum in ora
maritima sitam").

> Besides his demise was 942
> or so, and not as quite young.... also this indicates birth clearly
> earlier
> than 911.
> Of course this is merely an estimate, but William could been something
> around 10 years old in 911.
> (and the birth overseas also indicates it was before the vital event of
> 911)

We simply don't know - William might have been ca 16 years old in 927/28, or
perhaps around 5-10 years older than that. There is simply not enough
evidence to date his birth or confirm the period of his adulthood by modern
reckoning.

Dudo and his Norman informants believed that William had a sister who was
still a "girl" ca 936 - if so she was apparently his junior by a decade or
two, with no other siblings or a different mother recorded, thus Dudo's
account of Rollo's family is somewhat suspect for that reason alone.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

unread,
Jun 24, 2010, 9:27:00 PM6/24/10
to

<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.475.12774240...@rootsweb.com...

The name Emillana is already a familiar form, related to Emilla/Amilla.

Whether Alaina represents the same name or not is too difficult to say for
sure - its occurrence in Poitiers, for a former countess who had become a
nun, may be unique as far as I know. It would not be too surprising if this
came to be rendered later as the much more common Adela.

Does a Norse name very similar to Alaina occur to anyone?

Peter Stewart

M Sjostrom

unread,
Jun 25, 2010, 4:21:33 PM6/25/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
a Norse name very similar to Alaina....


nope, does not come easily.
This is NOT yet an epoch when the name Helena would be in use (and in favor)


I tend to think that actually the name Geirlaug would be likely to be of the
lady's in question

Rollo's daughter born almost twenty years (or more) before 911, would
presumably be pagan by birth.
Also, quite possibly not born of Poppa (who is needed only after c900 for
things she has some attestation)

Geirlaug would get a baptismal name, another name, (Alaina, as is highly
likely), at the latest when marrying a christian princeling

Peter Stewart

unread,
Jun 25, 2010, 8:15:19 PM6/25/10
to

"M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.486.12774972...@rootsweb.com...

"Highly likely" is going too far in my view - since the name (or at least
the form) Alaina appears to be unique to the countess who became a nun in
Poitiers, it does not seem highly likely that this was chosen as the
baptismal name of a converted Norse lady, which would normally be that of a
saint or sponsor.

Also I'm inclined to believe that William's Christian mother named "Poppa"
was invented by Dudo - it's very curious that this name is otherwise
unexampled for a Frankish noblewoman of the time, but had recently been made
famous by Widukind of Corvey as the name of the cleric who had baptised
Harald I and converted the Danes (Rollo's people according to Dudo). "Poppa"
was said to have been taken at the capture of Bayeux, a daughter of Count
B�renger: however, the latter's son (Judica�l) B�renger was later one of the
foresworn leaders of the Breton rebellion against William with no suggestion
that he was the Norman ruler's uncle.

Further, according to Dudo the sister of William was described as a "girl"
ca 936, but her father Rollo had been purportedly free to marry a
Carolingian princess named Gisla as part of the settlement when the Normans
were converted to Christianity, so that if Adela/Gerloc had been born after
that time she and William could not have had the same mother unless she was
never regarded as Rollo's canonical wife. Yet, according to Dudo, William
was born to Poppa at Rouen, where the Normans were settled after the
conversion, and the stain of bastardy is not in any way imputed to him.

Peter Stewart

taf

unread,
Jun 25, 2010, 9:36:11 PM6/25/10
to
On Jun 25, 5:15 pm, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> "Poppa"
> was said to have been taken at the capture of Bayeux, a daughter of Count
> B renger: however, the latter's son (Judica l) B renger was later one of the
> foresworn leaders of the Breton rebellion against William with no suggestion
> that he was the Norman ruler's uncle.

The reconstructions of the Breton states at this time is dubious. I
don't think it is safe to conclude that Judicael Berenger was son of a
Berenger at all. I have seen reconstructions that make Judicael the
son of Berenger of Rennes, son of a daughter Berenger 'of Bayeux';
Judicael son of a daughter of Berenger 'of Bayeux'; or son of Berenger
'of Bayeux' as you have it. I have my doubts about all of these.

taf

Peter Stewart

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Jun 25, 2010, 11:46:29 PM6/25/10
to

"taf" <t...@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:349bb6d4-85cb-4fa0...@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

Quite right, I misstated this & should have written:

"the latter's probable son or grandson (Judicael) Berenger was later one of

the foresworn leaders of the Breton rebellion against William with no

suggestion that he was related to the Norman ruler".

I'm not so sure about doubting "all of these" - I think a very close
connection between the Berengers in Rennes ca 944 and (perhaps) Bayeux ca
911, possibly with an intervening generation, is considerably more likely
than not.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

unread,
Jun 26, 2010, 3:22:36 AM6/26/10
to

"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:pKeVn.328$vD2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I finally remembered where the connection as father/son was stated - the
15th century Breton historian Pierre le Baud called Judicael Berenger
"Iuhael le Comte de Rennes, fils de Berenger", in a narrative given by him
in French ascribing it to "les chronicques annaux" (presumably miscellaneous
monastic annals now lost, but whether contemporary and accurate in this
instance, or even translated literally, cannot be said with any certainty).

Peter Stewart

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