C.P. Addition: Marriage of John de Montagu, Lord Montagu, and Margaret de Monthermer [Part 1]

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

This is Part I of two posts regarding the date of the marriage of Sir
John de Montagu, Lord Montagu, and Margaret de Monthermer,

Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 86–88 (sub Montagu) has a good account of
Sir John de Montagu, Knt., Lord Montagu, who died in 1390. Regarding
his marriage to Margaret de Monthermer, the following information is
provided:

"He married before the end of 1343 Margaret, according to modern
doctrine, suo jure Baroness Monthermer, daughter and heiress of Thomas
de Monthermer [Lord Monthermer]." END OF QUOTE.

No source is provided for this statement. However, in the same
Montagu account on page 86, it is stated that John de Montagu had
seisin of his wife's lands on 20 Dec. 1343, citing as the source:
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1343-46, pg. 319.

Elsewhere in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 143–144 (sub Monthermer)
indicates that Margaret de Monthermer was born 14 October 1329 at
Stokeham, Devon and that her marriage had been granted not once, but
twice by the king: First, on 2 July 1340 to William de Montagu, Earl
of Salisbury [father of her eventual husband], and 30 July 1340 to
Robert de Ferrers.

The confusion caused by these two conflicting grants triggered an
enquiry dated 13 October 1340 addressed by the king to John de
Grandison, Bishop of Exeter, who had been granted custody of young
Margaret de Monthermer. The enquiry and its response is published in
the Register of John de Grandisson, Bishop of Exeter, 1 (1894): 63–64,
which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ppRAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA63

For those of you who are unable to view this record in Google Books,
I've transcribed the Latin version of this record, followed by an
English translation kindly provided by Matt Tompkins:

143. - Tested by Edward, Duke of Cornwall, etc., 13 Oct. 1340, - Cum
nuper, de gracia nostra specialii, et in auxilium expensarum quas ....
Dominus Robertus de Ferrariis in obsequio nostro sustinuit,
concesserimus ei maritagium Margarete, filie et heredis Thome de Monte
Hermerii, defuncti, qui de nobis tenuit in capite, infra atatem, et in
Custodia nostra existentis, habendum sine disparagacione et absque
aliquo nobis inde reddendo, prout in Literis nostris Patentibus inde
confectis plenius continetur; et vobis pluries mandaverimus quod eidem
Roberto corpus heredis predicte, in Custodia vestra, ut dicitur,
existens, liberetis maritandum in forma predicta, vel causam nobis
significaretis quare Mandato nostrop vobis inde directo minime
paruistis; ac vos, spretis Mandatis nostris predictis, ut accepimus,
predicto Roberto corpus predicte heredis liberare, vel saltem causam
quare id facere noluistis vel non potuistis, nobis significare
hactenus non curaveritis, in nostri ac Mandatorum nostrorum
predictorum contemptum et ipsius Roberti dampnum non modicum et
gravamen, de quo miramur quam plurimum et movemur, - vobis, igitur,
adhuc mandamus firmiter injungentes quod predicto Roberto corpus
predicte heredis liberetis, juxta tenorem Mandatorum nostrorum
predictorum prius vobis inde directorum, vel vos ipsi sitis coram
Consilio nostro, apud Westmonasterium, in Octabis Sancti Martini [18
Nov.], ostensuri quare Mandatis nostris, tociens vobis inde directis,
parere contempsistis. - Return, - Huic Brevi, cum debita reverencia,
respondemus quod Mandatis vestris, si que nobis directa fuerant,
parere non contempsimus, set corpus dicte Margarete per Johannem de
Chedeseye, Attornatum Nobilis Viri, Domini Willelmi de Monte acuto,
Comitis Sarum - cui per Escaetorem vestrum, nomine quorundam debitorum
ejusdem Comitis, ex assignacione vestra liberatum extitit, prout nobis
exhibita Breva vestra, sigillo Cancellarie sigillata, continebant -
nobis traditum, per aliqua tempora ad utilitatem predicti Comitis
custodivimus, Et, postea, Attornato ejusdem Comitis, super hoc cum
instancia requisiti, idem corpus retradidimus, ut decebat; quod nunc,
eo quod in potestate nostra non erat tempore recepcionis hujusmodi
Brevis, Domino Roberto de Ferrariis, aut alii cuicumque ex parte sua,
nequivimus liberare. Et postea, sicut ex quamplurium fidedignorum
super hoc coram nobis juratorum assercione concepimus, eadem Margareta
Johanni de Monte acuto, filio prefati Comitis, matrimonialiter est
conjuncta. Placeat, igitur, Regie Majestati nos habere super hiis
nobis impositis excusatos.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF ABOVE:

143. - Tested by Edward, Duke of Cornwall, etc.., 13 Oct. 1340, -

Whereas lately, by our special grace, and in aid of the expenses
which .... Sir Robert de Ferrers sustained in our service, we granted
to him the marriage of Margaret, daughter and heir of Thomas de
Monthermer, deceased, who held of us in chief, being within age and in
our custody, to have without disparagement and without paying anything
therein to us, as is fully contained in our Letters Patent issued
therein;

and we several times ordered that you should deliver the person of the
aforesaid heir, being, as was said, in your custody, to the same
Robert to marry in the aforesaid form, or show us cause why you did
not perform our direct order to you therein;

and you, ignoring, as we hear, our aforesaid orders, have still not
arranged to deliver the person of the aforesaid heir to the aforesaid
Robert, or to explain to us why you would not or could not do that, in
contempt of us and our aforesaid orders and to the considerable and
grave damage of the same Robert, which surprises and concerns us
greatly;

therefore we again order and firmly enjoin that you should deliver the
person of the aforesaid heir according to the tenor of our aforesaid
orders therein previously send to you, or yourself appear before our
Council at Westminster in the octave of St Martin [18 Nov.], to show
why you refused to obey our orders, sent to you therein so many times.

- Return,

To the writ, with due respect, we answer that we did not refuse to
perform your orders, if they were indeed sent to us, but for some time
kept safe the person of the said Margaret, surrendered to us by John
de Chedeseye, attorney of the noble man Sir William de Montagu, earl
of Salisbury (to whom it was granted, in respect of certain of the
same earl’s debts, by your Escheator at your direction, as contained
in your writ, shown to us, sealed with the Chancery seal, for the
benefit of the aforesaid earl,

And subsequently, having been strongly pressed for it, we returned the
same person to the attorney of the same earl, as was proper; which
[person] we are now unable to deliver to Sir Robert de Ferrers, or to
anyone on his behalf, because she was not in our control when we
received this writ.

And subsequently, as we understand from the statements of many
trustworthy persons sworn on this before us, the same Margaret was
joined in marriage to John de Montagu, son of the aforesaid earl.
Therefore let it please the king’s majesty to hold us innocent of
these charges. END OF ENGLISH TRANSLATION.

[Maree Gordon]

Any help to anyone.....??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_de_Monthermer,_2nd_Baron_Monthermer


Thomas de Monthermer, 2nd Baron Monthermer (born 4 Oct 1301, Stoke,
Ham, Wiltshire - killed 24 June 1340 at the Battle of Sluys) was the
son of Ralph de Monthermer, 1st Baron Monthermer and Joan of Acre,
the daughter of Edward I.

He gained the title of Baron Monthermer on the death of his father.

He married Margaret Teyes.

They had just the one child, Margaret, who in 1340 became the wife of

John de Montacute, 1st Baron Montacute, the younger brother of
William Montacute, 2nd Earl of Salisbury and son of the 1st Earl.

Their son John became the 3rd Earl of Salisbury and 4th Baron
Monthermer.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

This is the second of two posts regarding the date of the marriage of
Sir John de Montagu, Lord Montagu (died 1390), and Margaret de
Monthermer, DR

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

As shown in the first post of today's date, the king contacted Bishop
John de Grandison on 13 Oct. 1340, and asked him to explain why he had
failed to deliver the body of young Margaret de Monthermer to Robert
de Ferrers. The king ordered the Bishop to deliver Margaret de
Monthermer as requested and that the bishop appear before the King's
council at Westminster on 18 Nov. 1340 to explain his actions.

The bishop made a response to this enquiry and stated that the
marriage of young Margaret de Monthermer had been granted to William
de Montagu and that he had since delivered Margaret into the custody
of the earl's attorney. He further stated that he understood that the
same Margaret was already joined in marriage to John de Montagu, son
of the aforesaid earl.

While there is no date on the bishop's response, it presumably took
place before 18 November 1340, when the bishop was ordered to appear
in the king's court. But, it was certainly before 1 February 1340/1,
on which date the king made the following grant:

"Indemnity to John, bishop of Exeter, with respect of his taking of
Margaret, daughter and heir of Thomas de Monte Hermerii, tenant in
chief, detaining her for some time and then delivering her to William
de Monte Acuto, earl of Salisbury, with the king's will and the assent
of Robert de Ferrariis, to whom her marriage had been granted by the
king." END OF QUOTE. Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1340–1343
(1900): 126, which may viewed at the following weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0126.pdf

Since the grant of indemnity to the Bishop obviously followed his
response to the king, we can safely conclude that John de Montagu and
Margaret de Monthermer were married before 1 February 1340/1, when
Margaret was at the ripe age of 11 years old.

In closing, I wish to extend special thanks to Matt Tompkins for
providing the English translation of the document taken from Bishop
Grandison's Register.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah