Need some help confirming info
Mayet
I am new to all of this, so please excuse my ignorance =o)
I am in the process of trying to confirm some information which was
written up in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse. However, some of the
information found in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse appears to be very
inaccurate and very confusing, to say the least. The first passage that
is giving me the most trouble is as follows:
"TOUSTAIN, Count d' Hiesmes (Hiesmois), was Chamberlain to Duke Robert
II (1034); Toustain was Earl of Northumberland in England (1065), his
mother being Thyra, daughter of the King of Denmark and his grandmother
being Emma, daughter of the Duke of Normandy." (Dictionnaire de la
Noblesse)
From previous research, I know that "Emma, daughter of the Duke of
Normandy" refers to Emma of Normandy, daughter of Richard I ("The
Fearless"), Duke of Normandy. However, because of the wording I'm not
sure if they are referring to Emma as being Toustain's grandmother, or
the King of Denmark's grandmother. If the "King of Denmark" referred to
is Canuté, King of England and Denmark, that would make Emma Toustain's
grandmother...BUT Canuté and Emma did not have a daughter named Thyra to
my knowledge, and even if they did, the time frame wouldn't match, If
the King referred to was Hardicanuté, Canuté's son and successor,
Hardicanuté did not have a daughter named Thyra either, and even if he
did, that would make Emma Toustain's Great grandmother. For Emma to be
the King of Denmark's grandmother, that would mean the King of Denmark
referred to would have to be Hardicanuté's son. Does anyone know if
Hardicanté's son had a daughter named Thyra, or where I could find out
if he did?
Also, I cannot confirm who Duke, Robert II's chamberlain was in 1034.
Can anyone give me some help on that as well??
The next section giving me trouble is as follows:
"Count Toustain is mentioned in Monasticon Anglicanum (1100), a nephew
of Goz Toustain, Count d'Hiesmes (1034). Hughes Toustain, Knight (1180)
was father of two sons. The eldest of whom, after sharing his
inheritance, came to England and established the English branch of this
family. The younger son remained in Normandy where the French branch
still survives. (Dictionnaire de la Noblesse, Chenaye Des bois et
Badier)
Hughes Toustain, Knight and Earl of Canterbury (1219), married Luciene
d'Evreux from whom descended the Earls of Essex."
I've looked up the name of the Earl of Essex 1st, 2nd and 3rd and none
of them are named Toustain, or even Hughes, and I cannot find any
reference to Luciene d'Evreux anywhere. Can someone give me some help
is this area?
The next section is:
"Ranulphe Toustain, Knight and Lord of Evecrique (Yvecrique), head of
the branch remaining in France was younger brother of Hughes, who had
given to him all of his possessions remaining in Normandy by a deed
(1219) signed by the following: Richard, Count d'Hiesmes; Foulques,
Count de Talvas; Guilliaume, Knight and Lord of Grandmesnil; Godefroid,
Knight and Lord of Bretteville and Grand Huntsman of Normandy; Etienne,
Viscount of Beaumont, etc."
I cannot find any reference to Ranulphe Toustain, or the Lord of
Evecrique (Yvecrique) anywhere either. And could use some help with
this last passage as well:
"Ranulphe married Agnes de Chartley, daughter of Lord de Chartley of
England (a family
related to that of Harcourt and of Bethuné), who's issue was Fulbert
Toustain, Knight and
Lord of Evecrique and an Admiral of England, etc. Decendant was Grand
Admiral of France (1336). Jude Toustain, Knight, etc., married Anne de
Forest, daughter of Adrian and a parent of Pierre de Forest, Cardnal and
Archbishop of Rouen, Primate of Normandy." (Translated from Annuaire de
la Noblesse de France 1950)
Thank you in advance for any help any of you can give me.
Sue
K. Williams
I think that your "Toustain" might be Tostig, Earl of Northumberland
(killed c.1066) who was the son of "earl Godwine". (FIW, EAF Indices).
The problem here is which earl Godwine does this refer to?
I found several Godwines in the index to "A-SBKN" but the most
promising looks to be Godwine who was brother-in-law to Lady Godiva. Of
course, he is listed only as having one child, Aethelwine, but there
might have been others.
In "Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings, and Nobles" (by William Searle,
1899) there is reference to Cnut's wife Emma (or Aelfgifu) but the only
children listed are Harthacnut and Gunhild who md. Henry III of Germany.
Kelsey
Mayet
Thank you for the suggestion, but I don't know if "Tostig" is possible
unless Emma of Normandy was his grandmother? Also, I'm pretty sure his name
must be "Toustain" since that is the "surname" of the French/Norman branch
of my family. Was this "Tostig" also Chamberlain to Duke Robert II and
married to Thyra, daughter to the king of Denmark? If any of those things
are also true, then maybe it is possible.
I have also found in several sources (one being
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/gedx.html) that Canuté and
Emma had 3 children, one listed simply as "daughter", however, I don't know
how accurate this is, or what her name could possibly be.
Since writing my original inquiry, I have found that Harald I "Blue Tooth",
King of Denmark (940-996) had a daughter named Thyra, however, none of her 3
husbands (Olafsson, Styrbjorn of Sweden, Mieczislaw (Burislaf) I of Poland,
Duke of Poland, and Tryggvason, Olaf of Norway, King of Norway) could have
possibly been my "Toustain", and Emma of Normandy couldn't possibly have
been grandmother to any of these men.
Why does this have to be so frustrating and confusing? =o)
Sue
===================================
Mayet
I just looked up "Tostig" Godwinsson, Earl of Northumberland and he couldn't
possibly be my "Toustain". Tostig was born in 1026, which would make him
too young to be Chamberlain to Duke Robert II in 1034. Although Tostig's
mother was Thyra, daughter to the King of Denmark ( Sveyn I "Forkbeard") and
sister to Canuté II, Emma was not his grandmother, nor the grandmother of
Sveyn, nor any relation to any of the above named people.
<sigh> I'm so confused =o)
Stewart Baldwin
>I just looked up "Tostig" Godwinsson, Earl of Northumberland and he couldn't
>possibly be my "Toustain". Tostig was born in 1026, which would make him
>too young to be Chamberlain to Duke Robert II in 1034. Although Tostig's
>mother was Thyra, daughter to the King of Denmark ( Sveyn I "Forkbeard") and
>sister to Canuté II, Emma was not his grandmother, nor the grandmother of
>Sveyn, nor any relation to any of the above named people.
Tostig was certainly not the grandson of Svend of Denmark. According
to the genealogical tables in Dorothy Whitelock's translation of the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Tostig's mother was Gytha, daughter of Thorgils
"Sprakalegg", and sister of the jarl Ulf (son-in-law of Svend I and
father of Svend II). Gytha is given by Norse sources, for example
Morkinskinna. I do not recall whether or not she is also given by
Anglo-Saxon sources.
Stewart Baldwin
Mayet
Sveyn I "Forkbeard". Sveyn I "Forkbeard" named one of his daughters from his
marriage to Gunhilda of Poland, Thyra as well. Thyra, daughter to Harald is the
mother Thorkils "Sprakalegg" from her marriage to Styrbjorn Olafsson of Sweden.
You're right about Gytha being Tostig's mother. I misread the information.
According to The Royal Names Database
(http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/gedx.html) Thyra (da. to Sveyn
I "Forkbeard") was married to Godwin, Earl of Wessex & Kent, but they had no
children. I looked at it quickly and didn't notice that the children listed
(Tostig among them) came from his marriage to Gytha, not Thyra. Thanks for the
correction.
However, I'm still left with the problem of finding my Toustain's mother named
Thyra who is the daughter to the King of Denmark, and figuring out how Emma of
Normandy could be his grandmother. <sigh>
Thanks for straightening me out =o)
Sue
================================
Suzanne Doig
>I am in the process of trying to confirm some information which was
>written up in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse. However, some of the
>information found in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse appears to be very
>inaccurate and very confusing, to say the least. The first passage that
>is giving me the most trouble is as follows:
>
>"TOUSTAIN, Count d' Hiesmes (Hiesmois), was Chamberlain to Duke Robert
>II (1034); Toustain was Earl of Northumberland in England (1065), his
>mother being Thyra, daughter of the King of Denmark and his grandmother
>being Emma, daughter of the Duke of Normandy." (Dictionnaire de la
>Noblesse)
This entry looks to have conflated two completely different people -
1) Toustain (?Thurstan), Count d'Hiesmes, whoever he was - probably
the same as Thurstan le Goz, Viscount of Avranches and Hiemois, fl
1035; and
2) Tostig, Earl of Northumberland killed 1066, son of Godwin, Earl of
Wessex and *Gytha*. Thyra, daughter of Sweyn I 'Forkbeard', was
Godwin's first wife, Gytha was the second wife and mother of Godwin's
children.
As far as I can see, Emma of Normandy had no grandchildren called
anything like Toustain/Thurstan/Tostig, although it is certainly
possible that Toustain #1 was connected somehow to the ducal house of
Normandy. Thurstan le Goz's son Richard married a half-sister of
William the Conqueror.
You will not be able to reconcile the information in the article, as
it is such a mess of confusion and false relationships. I would not
have much confidence in the source (especially for
English/Scandinavian individuals).
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
Suzanne Doig - remove *!* from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to all of this, so please excuse my ignorance =o)
>
> written up in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse. However, some of the
> information found in Dictionnaire de la Noblesse appears to be very
> inaccurate and very confusing, to say the least.
This is correct.
> The first passage that
> is giving me the most trouble is as follows:
>
> "TOUSTAIN, Count d' Hiesmes (Hiesmois), was Chamberlain to Duke Robert
> II (1034); Toustain was Earl of Northumberland in England (1065), his
> mother being Thyra, daughter of the King of Denmark and his grandmother
> being Emma, daughter of the Duke of Normandy." (Dictionnaire de la
> Noblesse)
Don't waste effort on this. Toustain is Turstin Goz, as is evident from
what follows. Thyra is fictional, and should simply be removed.
> The next section giving me trouble is as follows:
>
> "Count Toustain is mentioned in Monasticon Anglicanum (1100), a nephew
> of Goz Toustain, Count d'Hiesmes (1034). Hughes Toustain, Knight (1180)
> was father of two sons. The eldest of whom, after sharing his
> inheritance, came to England and established the English branch of this
> family. The younger son remained in Normandy where the French branch
> still survives. (Dictionnaire de la Noblesse, Chenaye Des bois et
> Badier)
>
> Hughes Toustain, Knight and Earl of Canterbury (1219), married Luciene
> d'Evreux from whom descended the Earls of Essex."
This is also confused. The Hugh in question was certainly Hugh, Earl of
Chester (NOT Kent), who was son of Richard Goz, son of Turstin. (As to
a younger branch surviving in France, we discussed this here a couple of
weeks ago.) Hugh married Ermengarde, daughter of Hugh, Count of
Clermont.
> The next section is:
>
> "Ranulphe Toustain, Knight and Lord of Evecrique (Yvecrique), head of
> the branch remaining in France was younger brother of Hughes, who had
> given to him all of his possessions remaining in Normandy by a deed
> (1219) signed by the following: Richard, Count d'Hiesmes; Foulques,
> Count de Talvas; Guilliaume, Knight and Lord of Grandmesnil; Godefroid,
> Knight and Lord of Bretteville and Grand Huntsman of Normandy; Etienne,
> Viscount of Beaumont, etc."
Ranulf here is the Vicomte of Avranches, brother-in-law (or nephew -
there was one in each generation) of Hugh.
>And could use some help with
> this last passage as well:
>
> "Ranulphe married Agnes de Chartley, daughter of Lord de Chartley of
> England (a family
> related to that of Harcourt and of Bethuné), who's issue was Fulbert
> Toustain, Knight and
> Lord of Evecrique and an Admiral of England, etc. Decendant was Grand
> Admiral of France (1336). Jude Toustain, Knight, etc., married Anne de
> Forest, daughter of Adrian and a parent of Pierre de Forest, Cardnal and
> Archbishop of Rouen, Primate of Normandy." (Translated from Annuaire de
> la Noblesse de France 1950)
Basically, this is all such a mess it is not worth figuring out what was
intended. It should be rejected in its entirety.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> I think that your "Toustain" might be Tostig, Earl of Northumberland
> (killed c.1066) who was the son of "earl Godwine". (FIW, EAF Indices).
> The problem here is which earl Godwine does this refer to?
There was only one Earl Godwine, the brother-in-law od King Edward the
Confessor, and father of King Harold II and Earl Tostig.
> I found several Godwines in the index to "A-SBKN" but the most
> promising looks to be Godwine who was brother-in-law to Lady Godiva. Of
> course, he is listed only as having one child, Aethelwine, but there
> might have been others.
Nope. Wrong guy.
taf
Mayet
I thank you very much for correcting the erroneous info listed in Dictionnaire
de la Noblesse. I went back and read the document about the Tustin/Toustain
Family history and saw that some of what I posted also came from World
Nobility and Peerage - 87th Volume. A little scary.
I have another question, if you don't mind. I have found info on various
web-sites stating that "Toustain le Goz "le Blanc" was Standard Bearer for
William the Conqueror. Is he the same person as "Toustain le Goz Argentan,
Count of Hiesmes" who married Judith de Montanolier and is father to Richard
le Goz, Viscount of Avranches?
Also, where does William d'Hiesmes, Count of Hiesmes & Eu (brother of Emma of
Normandy) come into all of this??
Sue
===============================================
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I have another question, if you don't mind. I have found info on various
> web-sites stating that "Toustain le Goz "le Blanc" was Standard Bearer for
> William the Conqueror. Is he the same person as "Toustain le Goz Argentan,
> Count of Hiesmes" who married Judith de Montanolier and is father to Richard
> le Goz, Viscount of Avranches?
Again, two people are confused here. Turstin, standard bearer of
William at Hastings, was not Turstin Goz, but apparently someone tried
to join them.
> Also, where does William d'Hiesmes, Count of Hiesmes & Eu (brother of Emma of
> Normandy) come into all of this??
No genealogical connection.
taf