Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Question on wording of grant of arms of the 16th century
1,715 views
Skip to first unread message
Juan Sardina
May 2, 2020, 2:46:57 PM5/2/20
to
Hello,
I have been reading the transcription of the
"Heraldic Documents Exemplification of Arms of John Cuerton, dwelling at Bilbao, in Spain, by William Harvy, Clarenceux." Not dated. [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 49]
published in
TRANSACTIONS OF THE Historic Society OF Lancastershire and Cheshire FOR THE YEAR 191 1 VOLUME LXIII NEW SERIES— VOLUME XXVII
that can be found in google books,
and it contains a statement that has me puzzled.
"I have here- vnto annexed the Pedigre and dissent of his ancestors, which manifestly declareth him to be nobly descended of his descent of father and mothers syde from his great grandfather. "
I have not been able to read the actual text that was published on print, but if what Google books provides is mostly correct, there is no s for great-grandfathers, which appears to mean that his mother and his father were both descendants from a common great-grand-father, which I assume to be the father of Alexander de Querton, from Leyland parish.
However, I find that unlikely since John Cuerton's grandfather had moved to Shropshire from Lancashire and married there, and his son, John Cuerton Sr had been born at Shropshire where he married, presumably a woman from the neighborhood of Lilleshall Abbey. There is a surviving document with at least that much of information at Bilbao.
The alternative explanation, I guess, is that the transcribed text is incorrect and the document refers to both his paternal and maternal great-grandfathers, two separate individuals, but that would make his mother's family also esquires with known arms in the mid 1500s, though possibly in Shropshire and not Lancashire
Unfortunately, the original grant appears to have misplaced, and any possible copies in Spain appear to have been lost if they made it there.
Also, was it customary to take theses lines back to the great-grand-fathers on both sides? Or would have this been a special case? I thought the only requirement was to prove descent from an ancestor who had been granted or used arms before, on the father's side.
The grant has no date, but from the Spanish documents, it seems to have been made in 1545 or 1546 since that is when the Spanish authorities requested the documentation at Bilbao.
Thanks for any hints,
J Sardina
I have been reading the transcription of the
"Heraldic Documents Exemplification of Arms of John Cuerton, dwelling at Bilbao, in Spain, by William Harvy, Clarenceux." Not dated. [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 49]
published in
TRANSACTIONS OF THE Historic Society OF Lancastershire and Cheshire FOR THE YEAR 191 1 VOLUME LXIII NEW SERIES— VOLUME XXVII
that can be found in google books,
and it contains a statement that has me puzzled.
"I have here- vnto annexed the Pedigre and dissent of his ancestors, which manifestly declareth him to be nobly descended of his descent of father and mothers syde from his great grandfather. "
I have not been able to read the actual text that was published on print, but if what Google books provides is mostly correct, there is no s for great-grandfathers, which appears to mean that his mother and his father were both descendants from a common great-grand-father, which I assume to be the father of Alexander de Querton, from Leyland parish.
However, I find that unlikely since John Cuerton's grandfather had moved to Shropshire from Lancashire and married there, and his son, John Cuerton Sr had been born at Shropshire where he married, presumably a woman from the neighborhood of Lilleshall Abbey. There is a surviving document with at least that much of information at Bilbao.
The alternative explanation, I guess, is that the transcribed text is incorrect and the document refers to both his paternal and maternal great-grandfathers, two separate individuals, but that would make his mother's family also esquires with known arms in the mid 1500s, though possibly in Shropshire and not Lancashire
Unfortunately, the original grant appears to have misplaced, and any possible copies in Spain appear to have been lost if they made it there.
Also, was it customary to take theses lines back to the great-grand-fathers on both sides? Or would have this been a special case? I thought the only requirement was to prove descent from an ancestor who had been granted or used arms before, on the father's side.
The grant has no date, but from the Spanish documents, it seems to have been made in 1545 or 1546 since that is when the Spanish authorities requested the documentation at Bilbao.
Thanks for any hints,
J Sardina
taf
May 2, 2020, 3:22:06 PM5/2/20
to
On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 11:46:57 AM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have been reading the transcription of the
>
> "Heraldic Documents Exemplification of Arms of John Cuerton, dwelling at Bilbao, in Spain, by William Harvy, Clarenceux." Not dated. [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 49]
>
> published in
>
>
> TRANSACTIONS OF THE Historic Society OF Lancastershire and Cheshire FOR THE YEAR 191 1 VOLUME LXIII NEW SERIES— VOLUME XXVII
>
> that can be found in google books,
For those interested, it can be seen here:
> Hello,
>
> I have been reading the transcription of the
>
> "Heraldic Documents Exemplification of Arms of John Cuerton, dwelling at Bilbao, in Spain, by William Harvy, Clarenceux." Not dated. [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 49]
>
> published in
>
>
> TRANSACTIONS OF THE Historic Society OF Lancastershire and Cheshire FOR THE YEAR 191 1 VOLUME LXIII NEW SERIES— VOLUME XXVII
>
> that can be found in google books,
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015033537070&view=1up&seq=245
> "I have here- vnto annexed the Pedigre and dissent of his ancestors, which manifestly declareth him to be nobly descended of his descent of father and mothers syde from his great grandfather. "
>
> I have not been able to read the actual text that was published on print, but if what Google books provides is mostly correct, there is no s for great-grandfathers, which appears to mean that his mother and his father were both descendants from a common great-grand-father, which I assume to be the father of Alexander de Querton, from Leyland parish.
>
taf
Carl-Henry Geschwind
May 3, 2020, 10:41:12 AM5/3/20
to
On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 2:46:57 PM UTC-4, Juan Sardina wrote:
>
> The grant has no date, but from the Spanish documents, it seems to have been made in 1545 or 1546 since that is when the Spanish authorities requested the documentation at Bilbao.
The grant was made by William Harvey as Clarenceux (that is, the king of arms for southern England). He held this office 1557-1567, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarenceux_King_of_Arms
>
> The grant has no date, but from the Spanish documents, it seems to have been made in 1545 or 1546 since that is when the Spanish authorities requested the documentation at Bilbao.
Thus, it appears it took at least a decade for the English authorities to respond to the Spanish request.
Juan Sardina
May 3, 2020, 2:21:50 PM5/3/20
to
For the Querton, I did see there existed a least a couple of families in Lancashire, in Leyland in particular, but of course, I cant tell which one is the correct one since the document is missing the arms, and the earliest visitation is missing them as well for the Kuerdens, that I guess is the most likely candidate. Of course, John Cuerton's line must have been a junior line otherwise they would not have left for Shropshire sometime in the late 1400s.
He may have been born around 1515-20 since he was already a factor for the Tyndale brothers at Bilbao in 1545, and married around that year. So I guess his father must have been born at least 25 years earlier, and his grandfather was born possibly 50 to 60 years earlier, and apparently, the one documented with arms is an even older generation.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 3, 2020, 2:45:45 PM5/3/20
to
That is very interesting.
Since the queen was Mary and not Elizabeth, this must have been one of his earliest grants. But ten years is definitely a very long time, and I am sure that the Spanish authorities would not have left the matter pending for so long. The time given to the applicant was only one year and one day, possibly somewhat longer, if extended.
But somehow John Cuerton managed to get around the limitation and got some documentation that allowed him to marry a local woman from apparently the class of hidalgos, and when she died, he made a second possibly better marriage to an heiress some years later, but it I am not mistaken before 1558.
During the reign of queen Elizabeth, and particular in the time when sir Thomas Chaloner was ambassador in Spain, Cuerton maintained a very frequently relationship with merchants from England and kept contacts there as well as in France, so perhaps the document eventually made it to Bilbao, but perhaps it never did. Quite a number of letters have survived.
In particular, there is a set about the affair of an unfortunate maiden at the service of Mrs. Clarencieux, the widow of the king of Arms. Apparently, a protestant Bible was found in the maiden's baggage when she arrived at a port in Spain which caused her to be detained by the Inqusition for several months, which caused Mrs Clarencieux to complain and ask ambassador Chaloner for help.
From the letters it seems Cuerton didn't like Mrs Clarencieux much and blamed her for the incident since she should have made sure, knowing how strict the inquisition was, that nobody from her household wouldn't bring any such books or any other incriminating evidence.
If I recall correctly, the widow of the king of arms resided in Spain as a lady in waiting of the duchess of Feria. I guess she may not have been WIlliam Harvey's widow.
The incident is described in the biography of sir Thomas Challoner published recently.
The Reluctant Ambassador: The Life and Times of Sir Thomas Chaloner, Tudor Diplomat, by Dan O'Sullivan
Perhaps Cuerton was also upset at the delay in getting the document, which must have prevented his expediente of hidalguia to be approved at Valladolid.
I did locate a copy of its very few folios since it is available online with scanned images of the microfilm by the Mormons, but it is very incomplete evidently.
It doesn't show his arms to have been recognized in Spain, but it does contain at least one letter from the king of Spain to the Bilbao authorities regarding the situation.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 3, 2020, 3:24:34 PM5/3/20
to
Hello,
Looking around more carefully for the arms of John More, Cuerton's son-in-law, which are known to have been granted a bit later, apparently in 1584, possibly when John More intended to settle at Bilbao, where he did marry one of Cuerton's daughters, there is a copy of the document at
Patent to JOHN MORE, out of Cheshire, now living at Bilbao in Spain, by William Flower, Norroy, . . . January 1581-2.
[MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 50]
and on one of the folios, his arms are given, as well as a very short genealogy starting with one Stephanus More, apparently from Scotland, but settled in Cheshire, where he married someone not mentioned in the document as far as I can tell, but who was a daughter of Joannis Pigot, armiger, and had John More sr, who married a daughter of Joannis Ridley, also armiger, and had John More English, resident at Bilbao at that time, who later moved to London.
The strange part is that this copy gives a set of four arms and they are listed Pigot and Ridley, which makes sense, but the next two are not More as I would expect, but Cuerton (Cuerden) and possibly Foster.
The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess represents a lion. The arms for possibly Foster are 3 horns with a chevron that includes what appears to be 3 hearts [I definitely do not know the terms for heraldy]
but why would the the Cuerton arms be included here?
The letter patent is from the Norroy king of Arms, and are dated about 20 years after the Cuerton's arms.
Would this mean that one of these other families were also related to the Quertons from Cuerden?
Interestingly, the arms for the More themselves are not given in the illustration.
A bit confused here,
J. Sardina
Looking around more carefully for the arms of John More, Cuerton's son-in-law, which are known to have been granted a bit later, apparently in 1584, possibly when John More intended to settle at Bilbao, where he did marry one of Cuerton's daughters, there is a copy of the document at
Patent to JOHN MORE, out of Cheshire, now living at Bilbao in Spain, by William Flower, Norroy, . . . January 1581-2.
[MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 50]
and on one of the folios, his arms are given, as well as a very short genealogy starting with one Stephanus More, apparently from Scotland, but settled in Cheshire, where he married someone not mentioned in the document as far as I can tell, but who was a daughter of Joannis Pigot, armiger, and had John More sr, who married a daughter of Joannis Ridley, also armiger, and had John More English, resident at Bilbao at that time, who later moved to London.
The strange part is that this copy gives a set of four arms and they are listed Pigot and Ridley, which makes sense, but the next two are not More as I would expect, but Cuerton (Cuerden) and possibly Foster.
The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess represents a lion. The arms for possibly Foster are 3 horns with a chevron that includes what appears to be 3 hearts [I definitely do not know the terms for heraldy]
but why would the the Cuerton arms be included here?
The letter patent is from the Norroy king of Arms, and are dated about 20 years after the Cuerton's arms.
Would this mean that one of these other families were also related to the Quertons from Cuerden?
Interestingly, the arms for the More themselves are not given in the illustration.
A bit confused here,
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 3, 2020, 3:28:06 PM5/3/20
to
Hello,
The publication where I found the description of the documents for John More can be found at https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/63-11-Rylands.pdf
SOME LANCASHIRE AND CHESHIRE HERALDIC DOCUMENTS
By W. H. Rylands, F.S.A.
'TPHE following patents and exemplifications of A arms and crests granted by the heralds in the latter part of the sixteenth century are con- tained in Ashmole's Manuscripts (Nos. 834 and 844) in the Bodleian Library, Oxford. The volumes are thus described in W. H. Black's Catalogue
The same publication includes the description of the document for John Cuerton.
There may be others of interest to the group.
The publication where I found the description of the documents for John More can be found at https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/63-11-Rylands.pdf
SOME LANCASHIRE AND CHESHIRE HERALDIC DOCUMENTS
By W. H. Rylands, F.S.A.
'TPHE following patents and exemplifications of A arms and crests granted by the heralds in the latter part of the sixteenth century are con- tained in Ashmole's Manuscripts (Nos. 834 and 844) in the Bodleian Library, Oxford. The volumes are thus described in W. H. Black's Catalogue
The same publication includes the description of the document for John Cuerton.
There may be others of interest to the group.
taf
May 3, 2020, 7:30:42 PM5/3/20
to
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 12:24:34 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Looking around more carefully for the arms of John More, Cuerton's son-in-
> law, which are known to have been granted a bit later, apparently in 1584,
> possibly when John More intended to settle at Bilbao, where he did marry one
> of Cuerton's daughters, there is a copy of the document at
>
> Patent to JOHN MORE, out of Cheshire, now living at Bilbao in Spain, by
> William Flower, Norroy, . . . January 1581-2.
> [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 50]
>
> and on one of the folios, his arms are given, as well as a very short
> genealogy starting with one Stephanus More, apparently from Scotland, but
> settled in Cheshire, where he married someone not mentioned in the document
> as far as I can tell, but who was a daughter of Joannis Pigot, armiger, and
> had John More sr, who married a daughter of Joannis Ridley, also armiger,
> and had John More English, resident at Bilbao at that time, who later moved
> to London.
>
> The strange part is that this copy gives a set of four arms and they are
> listed Pigot and Ridley, which makes sense, but the next two are not More
> as I would expect, but Cuerton (Cuerden) and possibly Foster.
>
> The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess
> represents a lion.
Yes, that is intended to represent a lion, divided diagonally, blue on gold above, gold on blue below, with a border of black and silver blocks.
> Hello,
>
> Looking around more carefully for the arms of John More, Cuerton's son-in-
> law, which are known to have been granted a bit later, apparently in 1584,
> possibly when John More intended to settle at Bilbao, where he did marry one
> of Cuerton's daughters, there is a copy of the document at
>
> Patent to JOHN MORE, out of Cheshire, now living at Bilbao in Spain, by
> William Flower, Norroy, . . . January 1581-2.
> [MS. Ashm. 834, I., fol. 50]
>
> and on one of the folios, his arms are given, as well as a very short
> genealogy starting with one Stephanus More, apparently from Scotland, but
> settled in Cheshire, where he married someone not mentioned in the document
> as far as I can tell, but who was a daughter of Joannis Pigot, armiger, and
> had John More sr, who married a daughter of Joannis Ridley, also armiger,
> and had John More English, resident at Bilbao at that time, who later moved
> to London.
>
> The strange part is that this copy gives a set of four arms and they are
> listed Pigot and Ridley, which makes sense, but the next two are not More
> as I would expect, but Cuerton (Cuerden) and possibly Foster.
>
> The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess
> represents a lion.
> The arms for possibly Foster are 3 horns with a chevron
> that includes what appears to be 3 hearts [I definitely do not know the
> terms for heraldy]
>
> but why would the the Cuerton arms be included here?
The bigger puzzle deals with the More arms. It looks like the artist started to draw them, making the fesse (the stripe across the middle), but didn't finish. Maybe he started the art before the arms being granted were finalized and never went back to complete the illustration.
> Would this mean that one of these other families were also related to the
> Quertons from Cuerden?
taf
taf
May 3, 2020, 7:48:46 PM5/3/20
to
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 4:30:42 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> > The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess
> > represents a lion.
>
> Yes, that is intended to represent a lion, divided diagonally, blue on
> gold above, gold on blue below, with a border of black and silver blocks.
A correction here. In Dugdale's 1664/5 visitation of Lancashire, the arms given for Kuerden of Preston are: "per bend sinister, or and azure, a griffin segreant countercharged". The Cuerton arms are clearly these arms, with a border for difference, so a griffin, not a lion (and hinting that the Cuertons were a junior line of the Preston 'Kuerden' family, who have the undifferenced arms of a senior line).
> > The arms given for Cuerton are a standing, passing animal that I guess
> > represents a lion.
>
> Yes, that is intended to represent a lion, divided diagonally, blue on
> gold above, gold on blue below, with a border of black and silver blocks.
taf
Juan Sardina
May 4, 2020, 8:21:55 AM5/4/20
to
SO I guess after all I know the arms of my Cuerton line, which is a start, but only because John More married John Cuerton's daughter. And apparently, the link to the Kuerden is strongly hinted, now the question I have is where did the king of Arms find the information for the Cuerton if both John Cuerton and John More resided at Bilbao.
I am thinking that there was a record of the them somewhere, possibly in the book said to have been in the possession of Calverley.
If I am not mistaken, John Cuerton was dead already by the time his daughter made a second marriage to John More. She was a widow with at least one or two children, Maria Perez de Recalde being the surviving daughter. She is the one who went to London and married a son of lord Tresham.
I did find some information about the Keurden /Kuerden family of Leyland, but not going far enough to the possible older brother of Alexander, unless it is the one at the top of the tree.
As far as I have seen the Ridley and Pigotts were at Cheshire in the 15th century and possibly earlier and have been studied in part, but I have not seen a marriage of a daughter of any of them to a More so far.
And I am still puzzled as to why the king of arms had to go to Chester to find the information about Cuerton's line if his grandfather came from Leyland, unless he was somehow related to earlier Quertons at Nantwich, but without his quarters and family tree that was attached to his document, it is impossible to tell at this time.
I will keep searching just in case something does turn up.
J. Sardina
taf
May 4, 2020, 12:01:52 PM5/4/20
to
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 5:21:55 AM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> SO I guess after all I know the arms of my Cuerton line, which is a start,
> but only because John More married John Cuerton's daughter. And apparently,
> the link to the Kuerden is strongly hinted, now the question I have is where
> did the king of Arms find the information for the Cuerton if both John
> Cuerton and John More resided at Bilbao.
On the possible Kuerden of Preston connection, it is broadly reported that Dr. Richard Kuerden of Preston, with whom the pedigree ends, was born a Jackson and adopted the Kuerden surname. The visitation pedigree shows Kuerden of Preston using patronymics, sometimes as a surname, sometimes alternatively with a Kuerden toponymic, but that two generations before the doctor, Richard Jackson (de Kuerden) married Margaret, daughter of William Kuerden. The possibility exists that it was this maternal connection of his father to William Kuerden that accounted for his use of the griffin arms, and not his patrilineal descent.
> SO I guess after all I know the arms of my Cuerton line, which is a start,
> but only because John More married John Cuerton's daughter. And apparently,
> the link to the Kuerden is strongly hinted, now the question I have is where
> did the king of Arms find the information for the Cuerton if both John
> Cuerton and John More resided at Bilbao.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationcount02raingoog#page/n80/mode/2up
Kuerden of Preston does not appear in any earlier visitations, but there is a pedigree in the 1567 visitation for Kuerden of Kuerden (no arms shown), which do not match the names in the Kuerden of Prestong pedigree:
https://archive.org/stream/remainshistorica81chetuoft#page/n93/mode/2up
Of note, the Kuerden of Preston pedigree says Richard Jackson married the daughter of William Kuerden by Cecily, heiress of _____ Faryngton. The 1567 visitation shows a John Kuerden of Kuerden marrying Elizabeth, coheiress of Peter Farington of Little Farington. The Rigby pedigree in the 1664-5 visitation says Alexander Rigby (with a son d. 1650) married second to Isabel, daughter and coheiress of John Cuerden of Cuerden, while the Banastre pedigree shows Henry Banastre d. 1614 marrying Alice, daughter and coheiress of John Kuerden of Kuerden. The 1613 visitation shows in the living generation (with a son over 20) George Chaderton married to Mary, daughter and coheiress of John Cuerden of Cuerden. It seems that John Kuerden of Kuerden, fl. 1567, d. 1601, who married Elizabeth Farrington and is given children Thomas and Mary in the 1567 visitation had further daughters after 1567 and his son and heir d.s.p., leaving the daughters as coheiresses. Richard Jackson died 1630, so he seems to be of the same generation as Chaderton, Rigby and Banastre, and with his wife said to be daughter of a Kuerden/Farrington marriage, it may be that Richard Jackson married another of the coheiresses of John Kuerden of Kuerden and Elizabeth Farrington, and that Dr Richard (or Dugdale) got confused in naming his great-grandparents for the pedigree. In a published description of the 1601 inventory of John Cuerden of Cuerden, it says he exchanged lands with John Jackson and his son Gilbert Jackson, grandfather and father of Dr. Richard Kuerden, and though this is at variance with the 1664-5 visitation in naming Gilbert's father, it does suggest there was a connection.
https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/91-10-France.pdf
There are some details to sort out here, but enough for now.
taf
Juan Sardina
May 4, 2020, 12:42:17 PM5/4/20
to
There is some further information regarding the Kuerden of Kuerden, though not quite enough to follow-up them back through the 15th century.
It is definitely a challenge.
But turning to the More, I did find the reference for the marriage of John More and Maria Cortun ( Cuerton became Cortun is Spain). it was on 2-2-1581 at Bilbao. I will try getting a copy of the entry from the archive. I doubt that it will bring more details, but in order for this marriage to be approved, John More must have presented proof of nobility and 'limpieza de sangre' to the local authorities, and it should have come from an inquisition made in England. Perhaps what we see in the manuscript now is a copy of the rough draft for a document that was actually issued. Regarding the genealogical details at least it mentions the father, mother, and the two grand-fathers by name. Unfortunately the grandmothers are not mentioned by name, and I don't see a connection to the better known More of Cheshire.
However, I am puzzled by another entry in one of the publications that can now be read through Google book. It talks about the Moore or More arms, and more specifically about John More.
The Genealogist
Grants and Certifications of Arms
p. 138
More John now of Bilboa in Spain s of Stephen More by his wife dau of John Ridley Esq s and h of Roger More by his wife dau of Pygot of Shropshire descended from More of co Chester Pat of conf by R Glover Somerset 24 Jan 1681 Erm a fess Gu betw six moor cocks Sa Crest On a staff ragulee from the dexter end a branch sprouting with leaves all ppr a moor cock rising Sa comb and wattle Harl. MS 6,169
https://books.google.com/books?id=1CY9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA138&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2zVAR-cBPr26x0dZQZxbPHYJE6fQ&ci=161%2C492%2C727%2C178&edge=0
But it adds some details. Apparently the Pigot were the Shropshire branch of the Cheshire Pygots, and the first More of this line was of the More from Cheshire. It also adds a reference to a patent by R. Glover, Somerset, 24-jan-1681, which would have been 100 years after the patent for John More. I think the date should ready 1581, though.
Apparently the draft and the final copy were prepared in January of 1581, a few days after the marriage, which I guess it is possible if John More had made preparations for it already, but it couldn't have been used for it in Spain.
In any case, it seems that a copy of the final version survived and that it was available at some point in MS 1689, so that it could be summarized in the publication made in the 1800s.
J. Sardina
taf
May 4, 2020, 12:59:46 PM5/4/20
to
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 9:01:52 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> Of note, the Kuerden of Preston pedigree says Richard Jackson married the
> daughter of William Kuerden by Cecily, heiress of _____ Faryngton.
After all this analysis, I find that the pedigree was addressed by VCH Lancashire, which referred to it as 'fanciful', suggested that Dr. Richard simply appropriated the identity of the Kuerdens of Kuerden and fudged the pedigree. And if he did that, he probably stole their arms too. It does give a lot on Kuerden of Kuerden.
> Of note, the Kuerden of Preston pedigree says Richard Jackson married the
> daughter of William Kuerden by Cecily, heiress of _____ Faryngton.
See account beginning here:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924088434620/page/n57/mode/2up
and in particular the footnote 9 beginning on p. 26.
taf
taf
May 4, 2020, 1:07:47 PM5/4/20
to
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 9:42:17 AM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> It also adds a reference to a patent by R. Glover, Somerset, 24-jan-1681,
> which would have been 100 years after the patent for John More. I think
> the date should ready 1581, though.
Robert Glover became Somerset Herald in 1571 and died 1588, so definitely not 1681.
> It also adds a reference to a patent by R. Glover, Somerset, 24-jan-1681,
> which would have been 100 years after the patent for John More. I think
> the date should ready 1581, though.
taf
taf
May 4, 2020, 1:21:03 PM5/4/20
to
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 9:42:17 AM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> The Genealogist
> Grants and Certifications of Arms
> p. 138
> More John now of Bilboa in Spain s of Stephen More by his wife dau of John
> Ridley Esq s and h of Roger More by his wife dau of Pygot of Shropshire
> descended from More of co Chester Pat of conf by R Glover Somerset 24 Jan
> 1681 Erm a fess Gu betw six moor cocks Sa Crest On a staff ragulee from
> the dexter end a branch sprouting with leaves all ppr a moor cock rising Sa
> comb and wattle Harl. MS 6,169
> The Genealogist
> Grants and Certifications of Arms
> p. 138
> More John now of Bilboa in Spain s of Stephen More by his wife dau of John
> Ridley Esq s and h of Roger More by his wife dau of Pygot of Shropshire
> descended from More of co Chester Pat of conf by R Glover Somerset 24 Jan
> 1681 Erm a fess Gu betw six moor cocks Sa Crest On a staff ragulee from
> the dexter end a branch sprouting with leaves all ppr a moor cock rising Sa
> comb and wattle Harl. MS 6,169
> In any case, it seems that a copy of the final version survived and that
> it was available at some point in MS 1689, so that it could be summarized
> in the publication made in the 1800s.
British Library Harley MS. 6169
> it was available at some point in MS 1689, so that it could be summarized
> in the publication made in the 1800s.
taf
taf
May 4, 2020, 4:09:14 PM5/4/20
to
"A Book in folio, containing the Arms, partly in Colours, partly in Trick, of divers Families, with an Account of the Time when, & the Persons by whom their Patents were granted. An Alphabetical Index is added at the end. Leaves 86. The Book is imperfect, it being evidently intended that the arms should be added, and coloured throughout."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t6549107k&view=1up&seq=348&size=125
taf
Juan Sardina
May 4, 2020, 4:22:25 PM5/4/20
to
It might be useful my particular case to check if it ever becomes available.
I suppose that a complete copy of the grants might still be stored at the archives, but as far as I know they have never been available for a variety of reasons.
I guess that if John More did get his copy of this grant he kept it and took back to London, and it might have been handed down to his step-daughter. As far as I know he had no children and no brother or sisters, but I don't know if there is a will for him that might throw some light on it. As far as I know, he did not leave surviving children at Bilbao either.
John Cuerton's grant disappeared. At least his copy cant be found at Bilbao. The local authorities would have made a notation of it and in some cases they might have kept a copy for reference since it meant they couldn't tax him and his legitimate descendants and they couldn't deny him holding public office. Unfortunately, I haven't found a trace of it. It was not in the papers that one of his daughters and her descendants kept for over 400 years, but it might have gone to his other daughter's family instead. He did have a surviving son, but he died childless at Bilbao.
At least we have a copy of the rough draft for John More that at least shows the arms in questions and gives a hint of where to look.
I am thinking there may be another place to research as well.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 5, 2020, 6:04:01 PM5/5/20
to
Thanks for the hints. I have been looking around for more Cuerdens, Keurdens, ets from Leyland trying to see if there was an earlier line that might have originated there but moved to Cheshire and then to Shropshire. Apparently, this research has been done already, but with incomplete results. Some years ago dr. Thomas Kirk Cureton published a few articles on the results of his research on the Curetons.
In Historical Southern Families. Volume XVIII, "Massey Family with Cureton Connections," p.202, if I copied the source correctly, he mentions one John Cuerden, from Leyland, who is said to have died near Combermere Abbey. The date of his death is not given, but the author mentions him in the same paragraph as one John Massey, who was abbot of Combermere in about 1540. No source for this information is given. This happens to be the name of John CUerton's father, but there might have been others before him with that name. John Cuerton sr was dead by 1545, but before that he resided near Lilleshall Abbey. There might be no connection, of course.
The same article mentions one Henry de Cuerden, of Malbank Hall, with a daughter, Alice, who is said to have married Hamon de Masci, of Dunham, who died in 1567, in about 1543. Here the spelling is different, though.
The author mentions MSS 5528 at the British Museum as the source, but apparently that refers to a visitation and notes from Kent, perhaps of some Massey descendants.
I wonder what this Henry de Cuerden's arms might have been if he was also a descendant of the Cuerden family, but not from the line mentioned in the visitations at Leyland.
J. Sardina
taf
May 5, 2020, 10:45:37 PM5/5/20
to
On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> The same article mentions one Henry de Cuerden, of Malbank Hall, with
> a daughter, Alice, who is said to have married Hamon de Masci, of Dunham,
> who died in 1567, in about 1543. Here the spelling is different, though.
>
> The author mentions MSS 5528 at the British Museum as the source, but
> apparently that refers to a visitation and notes from Kent, perhaps of
> some Massey descendants.
This is a flawed citation. The full citation is:
> The same article mentions one Henry de Cuerden, of Malbank Hall, with
> a daughter, Alice, who is said to have married Hamon de Masci, of Dunham,
> who died in 1567, in about 1543. Here the spelling is different, though.
>
> The author mentions MSS 5528 at the British Museum as the source, but
> apparently that refers to a visitation and notes from Kent, perhaps of
> some Massey descendants.
British Library Add MS 5528
It is described as:
Genealogia Cantiana, being a collection of Kentish pedigrees
18th century
1 volume (382 pages)
It is troubling that the author describes this as a Chester Pedigree Book. Also be aware that the Massys of Dunham saw their line end in the first half of the 14th century, so this may be a Masci 'of Dunham', meaning from Dunham, but is not a Masci 'of Dunham', meaning lord of Dunham.
taf
Juan Sardina
May 6, 2020, 9:21:37 AM5/6/20
to
If I get hold of a scanned copy I will check through all of it since the reference is incompleted and doesn't even mention which family has that Masci.
Most likely it is just a marriage of a Masci descendant.
What made Dr. Cureton look in a Kentish pedigree book that is not a visitation is a mystery, but it seems he was trying to connect some Cuertons to some Masseys and came across a marriage.
I think he was trying to prove how some Curetons of Shropshire came from some Cuertons from Cheshire and/or Leyland.
However, I think he did not succeed, as far as I can tell from what he published in the articles I have seen so far. For some reason, he picked the Keurden family from Leyland, which may be right, and a William Cureton, who is documented in the mid 1500s as being a dean at Shrewsbury. If I remember correctly he was pensioned off in 1538 but it is unclear what became of him.
He also found a Cuerton canon at Lilleshall Abbey of the same period, and apparently a John Cuerton near Combermere, and this Henry de Cuerden mentioned in that manuscript, but it seems he was not able to link them together through documentation.
It seems he was trying to prove eventually that at least some of the Curetons from Shropshire came from the same origin at Lancashire, but possibly passing through Cheshire first.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 6, 2020, 6:21:55 PM5/6/20
to
On Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 2:46:57 PM UTC-4, Juan Sardina wrote:
thanks for the information.
I was able to find some pages about these Mascy, Massey, etc and in particular the line at Rixton.
I have not been able to find exactly what document says that a Hamon de Masci married Alice Cureton daughter of Henry [of the same unclear surname] or of Richard [of the same name] , of Lilleshall Abbey.
I am not on clear on whether the surname was written Cureton or Cuerton. The book says Cureton, but there was a Cuerton canon at Lilleshall in 1538, and my John Cuerton sr is said to have lived there. My John Cuerton jr seems to have been born there, or at least his parents lived there in about 1520, that from the documents at Bilbao.
The references have me running around.
At least the Visitation of Lancashire of 1613 by St. George, on page 79 on a version available online does have the line of Rixton, but it just says that Hamon was the second son of John Mascy by Ann, who was a daughter of sir John Booth of Barton, apparently the knight killed at Flodden. The visitation has more details about the line of James Massey.
There may be some document that has the information about Hamon and his possible wife, but I don't know where.
It is mentioned again in a relatively recent book on Masseys, but Google books doesn't show the complete page and it may not have the exact reference.
This late reference is Massey Genealogy. Addendum - Page 21, from a book by Frank A. Massey published in 1979.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 6, 2020, 6:51:05 PM5/6/20
to
On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 10:45:37 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
He appears as marrying one Alice, daughter of [unknown] Kuerdale in The History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster, Volume 4 By Edward Baines, published in 1891
Specifically, in Vol 4, p. 54, apparently with succession, but here her surname is given a different version and her information is not included, so this must be coming from an older publication or document.
J. Sardina
taf
May 6, 2020, 8:18:23 PM5/6/20
to
On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 3:21:55 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
>
> At least the Visitation of Lancashire of 1613 by St. George, on page
> 79 on a version available online does have the line of Rixton, but
> it just says that Hamon was the second son of John Mascy by Ann, who
> was a daughter of sir John Booth of Barton, apparently the knight
> killed at Flodden. The visitation has more details about the line
> of James Massey.
Ah, so Rixton, not Dunham. It is not uncommon in sloppy 20th century work to take a member of a junior line and 'promote' them by making them members of the senior line as was done here.
>
> At least the Visitation of Lancashire of 1613 by St. George, on page
> 79 on a version available online does have the line of Rixton, but
> it just says that Hamon was the second son of John Mascy by Ann, who
> was a daughter of sir John Booth of Barton, apparently the knight
> killed at Flodden. The visitation has more details about the line
> of James Massey.
Note that the 1567 visitation shows the same line, giving Hamon as 2nd son of John. Likewise his elder brother William (b. ca. 1509) was the primary person for the 1533 pedigree. The published version does not name his brothers, but it is not trying to replicate the pedigree precisely, but then i have seen other visitation pedigrees by Benolte that leave out the siblings of the primary.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationlanca00britgoog#page/n145/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/remainshistorica81chetuoft#page/n81/mode/2up
taf
taf
May 6, 2020, 8:38:53 PM5/6/20
to
On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 3:51:05 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> Apparently, there is a reference to Hamon de Masci, possibly of Rixton
> or Layton in Lancashire.
>
> He appears as marrying one Alice, daughter of [unknown] Kuerdale in
> The History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster, Volume 4
> By Edward Baines, published in 1891
> Specifically, in Vol 4, p. 54, apparently with succession, but here
> her surname is given a different version and her information is not
> included, so this must be coming from an older publication or
> document.
Kuerdale (Cuerdale) is a distinct toponymic from Cuerden. It may well be that the author of the Cureton book is just fudging a lot of superficially similar names, simply concluding they must be the same because that is the only way they can trace their pedigree back.
> Apparently, there is a reference to Hamon de Masci, possibly of Rixton
> or Layton in Lancashire.
>
> He appears as marrying one Alice, daughter of [unknown] Kuerdale in
> The History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster, Volume 4
> By Edward Baines, published in 1891
> Specifically, in Vol 4, p. 54, apparently with succession, but here
> her surname is given a different version and her information is not
> included, so this must be coming from an older publication or
> document.
Anyhow, this Kuerdale connection is mentioned a few years earlier by Mrs. Arthur Cecil Tempest, "The Descent of the Mascys of Rixton, in the County of Lancashire (from Original Documents)", in Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, vol. 39 (n.s. vol. 3), 1887, pp. 59-158 at p. 102, but all it says is that he is "said to have married Alice Kuerdale" without giving a source.
https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/39-6-Tempest.pdf
taf
Juan Sardina
May 7, 2020, 9:59:54 AM5/7/20
to
These unnamed sources and alike surnames are killers.
It is a bit difficult to keep these possibly unrelated lines apart as they seems to have crossed counties and been active in the neighboring geographical regions easily, specially with younger sons moving around as needed.
At one point I almost thought that the Alex Curedale father of a John Curedale, and apparently grandfather of Grace and Margaret, was my Alex Cuerton from Leyland, but it seems they were different people. There was a lawsuit between the Aynesworth and the Curedales about certain lands that apparently had been inherited by the Curedales from the Aynesworth. Later on some of them were sold to lord Monteagle, but apparently Lawrence of Aynesworth wanted them back claiming better rights.
The summary of the case can be found online, from a book on cases in the duchy of Lancaster. I don't have the reference right now. Unfortunately, the Kuerden of Kuerden also married into the Aynesworth in possibly the same period and the two wives were both Elizabeth, and both daughters of possibly two different Lawrence of Aynesworth.
If one day a complete copy of the grant of arms to John Cuerton is found, I hope it shows the name of his great-grandfather of the Kuerden line along with his great-grandmother. Alexander could have been a son or a brother of Edward, the one mentioned in the visitation of Lancashire, but he might have belong to an older generation as well.
It would be helpful if the identity of Alice, the wife of Hamon could be verified as there was a canon at Lilleshall abbey named Richard Cuerton in 1538, but it may be a coincidence also.
I am not sure if it is possible to find scanned copies of the documentation for the closing of the abbey, as the transcriptions say Cuerton, but it might also be an error for Cureton.
And I still have the mystery of why John Cuerton's investigation by the king of Arms had to done at Chester, and not a Ludlow, or Shrewsbury or Preston. Apparently, there was a very strong link of his family to Chester, but I cant see how right now.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 8, 2020, 6:51:41 PM5/8/20
to
On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 8:38:53 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
So where two different Cuerden families with different arms or was this a mistake? or is this one another confusion with very similar surnames?
If I am not mistaken the Visitation of Lancashire where Cuerden of Cuerden are described is missing their arms on the published copy available online.
A topographical, statistical, & historical account of the borough of Preston
By Peter Whittle, published also in 1821, on page 294 describes arms showing the griffin as those of dr. Keurden in 1649 and belonging to the Keurden of Keurden, near Preston.
J. Sardina
taf
May 8, 2020, 7:30:37 PM5/8/20
to
On Friday, May 8, 2020 at 3:51:41 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> Well, I thought it would be easy to find the Cuerden/de Querton
> family of which John's grandfather was a member back in Lancashire,
> and specifically, at Leyland, and I thought it would be the Keurden
> of Keurden described in the Visitation of Lancashire, but looking
> at Gregson, Portfolio of Fragments, third edition, published in
> 1869, containing various genealogical and heraldic information for
> Lancashire, on page 255, when describing the Farington family, it
> shows its members and their marriages, and specifically, Elizabeth
> Farington who married John Cuerden of Cuerden; his arms are shows
> as as being Sarracen swords quartered with bicefalous eagles, not
> the griffin shown as part of Cuerton's arms.
OK, but where did Gregson get these arms?
> Well, I thought it would be easy to find the Cuerden/de Querton
> family of which John's grandfather was a member back in Lancashire,
> and specifically, at Leyland, and I thought it would be the Keurden
> of Keurden described in the Visitation of Lancashire, but looking
> at Gregson, Portfolio of Fragments, third edition, published in
> 1869, containing various genealogical and heraldic information for
> Lancashire, on page 255, when describing the Farington family, it
> shows its members and their marriages, and specifically, Elizabeth
> Farington who married John Cuerden of Cuerden; his arms are shows
> as as being Sarracen swords quartered with bicefalous eagles, not
> the griffin shown as part of Cuerton's arms.
> So where two different Cuerden families with different arms or was
> this a mistake? or is this one another confusion with very similar
> surnames?
> If I am not mistaken the Visitation of Lancashire where Cuerden of
> Cuerden are described is missing their arms on the published copy
> available online.
> A topographical, statistical, & historical account of the borough
> describes arms showing the griffin as those of dr. Keurden in 1649
> and belonging to the Keurden of Keurden, near Preston.
The problem is that Dr. Kuerden was one of the earliest to publish a history of Preston, so a history of Preston is going to take Dr. Kuerden's word for it.
> and belonging to the Keurden of Keurden, near Preston.
VCH Lancs, without explanation, gives the arms of Kuerden of Kuerden (in Leyland) as the griffin arms.
taf
Juan Sardina
May 8, 2020, 7:44:55 PM5/8/20
to
Apparently he was a descendant of the Keurden of Keurden, but only through a grandmother.
I am afraid Dr. Keurden mixed lines in his own submission, but apparently the coat with the griffin did belong to the Quertons of that area, whichever family they belonged to. It seems he tried connecting his father's line also to much earlier Cuerdens. At least that is what it seems he presented at the visitation and was accepted, not that it would be correct.
I am now trying to find a copy of the Calveley book of arms to see what arms it shows, if any.
If I am not mistaken, that book is older or nearly contemporary to my John Cuerton and to his grandfather.
J. Sardina
taf
May 8, 2020, 9:21:21 PM5/8/20
to
On Friday, May 8, 2020 at 4:44:55 PM UTC-7, Juan Sardina wrote:
> Apparently he was a descendant of the Keurden of Keurden, but only
> through a grandmother.
If you are talking about Dr. Richard, I would not take this as a given. He _said_ he was a descendant via his grandmother, but the information he gave on his grandparents is demonstrably false, and we know he acquired his Kuerden land via a land exchange between the last Kuerden of Kuerden and his actual grandfather. There is reason for concern that he may just have made up the connection to justify his use of arms to which his own family had no claim.
> Apparently he was a descendant of the Keurden of Keurden, but only
> through a grandmother.
> I am afraid Dr. Keurden mixed lines in his own submission, but apparently
> the coat with the griffin did belong to the Quertons of that area,
> whichever family they belonged to. It seems he tried connecting his
> father's line also to much earlier Cuerdens. At least that is what it
> seems he presented at the visitation and was accepted, not that it would
> be correct.
taf
Juan Sardina
May 9, 2020, 3:21:09 PM5/9/20
to
Unfortunately, finding the complete grant is extremely unlikely after more than 450 years.
J. Sardina
Juan Sardina
May 9, 2020, 5:16:46 PM5/9/20
to
On Friday, May 8, 2020 at 9:21:21 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
In any case, I don't find anything close in Lancashire, but I do in Shropshire for the 16th century. I could have be Hixson or something similar. I thought of Eyton and Eysam too.
I am currently trying to decipher to list to see if it could be of potential witnesses, business associates or even relatives or even a short tree.
the names include one similar to Gordosson, followed by a Margrid, I think, of xno..then a few words down I see John Belestor or Belesfor, William Alvode..
William Eorgo (or something similar), and I think Joyn Brayfor
the last name seems to be Tho. Cobham or Cobtom but the last word is definitely one I cant make out. It seems to be ColorKsnand.
I will keep digging at indexes and papers from Chester, just in case.
J. Sardina
Just in case, I have been trying to follow-up on his associates as well, but not successfully so far, except for one successful English merchant Rogel Gefresson or Jefferson, who settled at bilbao and left family there. There might be a grant of arms for him too, but I haven't found it. No information on his family. Only match I have found with that spelling is for a merchant of Dublin who went to Hamburg in a previous century.
juan sardina
Jun 5, 2021, 11:43:08 AM6/5/21
to
Hello,
Following up on this thread, which may be of limited interest, I thought I shared a new surprisingly discovery. I was not sure if the grant of arms made to John Cuerton had resulted in document that made its way to BILBAO, and was actually used for any purpose by John Cuerton and his descendants. His pleito de hidalguia at Valladolid is incomplete, and I don't know what it seems to have no follow-up documentation, but on the other hand, he managed to establish himself at Bilbao and his daughters made very good marriages.
It turns out that an original grant of arms was made in 1559 and was carried to Spain, where it must have been saved at family archives for nearly 500 years, and finally made it into an antiquarian library in Madrid, where it is now available for sale. Since this is a very large document as explained in the website, in excellent condition, and rare, its value is rather prohibitive, but at least some images of it can be found online at the website for the shop. They can be seen at
https://margaritadedios.es/inicio/7238-william-harvey-certificado-rey-de-armas-comercio-en-bilbao-1559.html
(and at Google images)
I was able to save blurred copies of them. Apparently, there are two documents. One is the grant of arms itself, and the other one is a genealogical tree spanning several generations of apparently the Cuertons (Querton) family from Lancashire. The names are almost impossible to read in the image, but the coat of arms seem to be good enough to be recognizable. The document set was finally made at London, on12 Dec of 1559, by William Harvey. I wonder if there would be a copy somewhere else.
I would like to see if anybody recognizes these coat of arms, that seem to date to the 15th and early 16th centuries.
I can't tell yet if John Cuerton would appear at the bottom of the genealogical tree, in which case the pedigree seems to extend at least 5 generations, and apparently, the diagram shows a marriage between 2nd or 3rd cousins. I don't see any dates on the names, though.
His father, from other documents, was named John, and his mother Helen. His paternal grandfather Alexander, and his paternal great-grandfather may have been a William. Alexander is said to have come from Leyland parish, but unfortunately, there is no existing pedigree of the Querton family from there covering the 15th century, as far as I can tell, unless this pedigree copies from a now lost document, possibly one consulted by doctor Keurden, who presented a very long pedigree for himself, which though "fanciful" may contain some valid information.
According to the document summary, John Cuerton Jr. was actually, not from Lilleshall, like his mother, but from Ighfield. Other documents at Bilbao call the place "Darladu."
I will try describing the various coats of arms in another email. They may correspond to families from Lancashire, Cheshire and Shropshire. One of them may be Foster, and another possibly Molineaux. One is totally blank, which may correspond to his paternal grandmother.
Juan
joseph cook
Jun 5, 2021, 4:23:58 PM6/5/21
to
>ecognizes these coat of arms, that seem to date to the 15th and early 16th centuries.
> I can't tell yet if John Cuerton would appear at the bottom of the genealogical tree, in which case the pedigree seems to extend at least 5 generations, and apparently, the diagram shows a marriage between 2nd or 3rd cousins. I don't see any dates on the names, though.
The link you sent shows the grant, which is easily readable. What is the link to the tree?
> I can't tell yet if John Cuerton would appear at the bottom of the genealogical tree, in which case the pedigree seems to extend at least 5 generations, and apparently, the diagram shows a marriage between 2nd or 3rd cousins. I don't see any dates on the names, though.
CHeers,
JOe C
joseph cook
Jun 5, 2021, 7:28:55 PM6/5/21
to
-Georgius Curiton filus et heir of John Cureton married Agnes filia Humfridi [Poe/Loc?] armiger
a brother of George
-Johes Curiton frater Georgius
ALso higher up top right of the other image:
Willi.. Sandford, Armiger m. Alicia ...
Top Left:
Will.. Cureteon of __, Armiger
One of the arms appears to me to be something like "guiles, fess or between six billets sable" but cannot find any recording of such an arms...hopefully someone else here can help
--Joe C
J. Sardina
Jun 5, 2021, 7:36:48 PM6/5/21
to
The same website shows a picture of the grant, or at least of part of it. Other images are also shown below that one, and two of them correspond to the tree. These two pictures do not show the entire tree, though, just sections of it. One of the sections show a line coming down from William Sanford, armiger, married Alicia....daughter of a knight (the coat of arms are visible). Another one shows the Cuerton line starting with one William. I cant make out the name of his wife, but the subsequent arms show, part Cuerton, and another coat of arms I can't identify, quartered. In the first quarter on azur, a sarracen sword or dagger, with a golden pommel, and in the other on gules background, a dark bicephalous eagle. I have heard of his coat of arms, but found it nowhere in France or Great Britain.
Part of tree shows a John Cuerton, younger brother, married to unknown (if i am not mistaken), the older brother, Georgius married to Agnes, daughter of Humphrey Loc?, armiger. Apparently, Georgius was the heir of John Cuerton Sr. The arms of the wife seem to be a blue head of a boar on a green background. I am not sure if this John Cuerton Jr, is the one that went to Bilbao. If so, he was born around 1520 at Ighfield in Shropshire. I can't see the bottom portion of the tree to confirm.
Juan
joseph cook
Jun 5, 2021, 7:37:45 PM6/5/21
to
J. Sardina
Jun 5, 2021, 8:04:33 PM6/5/21
to
One of the quarters shows a black or dark blue cross with a small quarter at the top left corner that seems to have a crowned lion rampant. Another quarter shows another lion rampant, crowned. The quarter in gules with the golden band divided in 10 quarters i had never seen before. The cross I have, but without the lion at the corner. The crowned lion I thought it could be Eyton of Eyton or Savage, but as far as i know that their lions were not crowned.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 5, 2021, 9:08:36 PM6/5/21
to
There appears to be a quarter consisting of a cross fleury, possibly blue or dark gray of black, on a white of gold field, with a small red canton at the top left with something that may be a lion , on gules, with something that appears to be golden, a crown? that sounds like an old coat of arms for Peshall from Shropshire.
juan
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 12:14:52 AM6/6/21
to
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 2:26:27 AM6/6/21
to
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:36:48 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> One of the sections show a line coming down from William Sanford,
> armiger, married Alicia....daughter of a knight (the coat of arms are visible).
His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> One of the sections show a line coming down from William Sanford,
> armiger, married Alicia....daughter of a knight (the coat of arms are visible).
I note that in 1503, William de Sondford 'of the Lee' granted to a group including Randulf Brereton of Malpas, Richard Sondford of Sondford, Ralph Brereton, gent, and George Bromley, for the use of William during his life and that of Alice his wife after his decease, to the use of Richard his son.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bb21cbcd-86be-4731-961d-c771dea7f01c
This is probably the same William de Sondford, son of Gruffin de Sondford of Shaynton who made a grant in 1470 along with the rector of Ightfield.
> Another one shows the Cuerton line starting with one William. I cant make out
> the name of his wife, but the subsequent arms show, part Cuerton, and another
> coat of arms I can't identify, quartered. In the first quarter on azur, a sarracen
> sword or dagger, with a golden pommel, and in the other on gules background,
> a dark bicephalous eagle. I have heard of his coat of arms, but found it nowhere
> in France or Great Britain.
> Part of tree shows a John Cuerton, younger brother, married to unknown (if i am
> not mistaken), the older brother, Georgius married to Agnes, daughter of Humphrey
> Loc?, armiger. Apparently, Georgius was the heir of John Cuerton Sr. The arms of
> the wife seem to be a blue head of a boar on a green background. I am not sure if
> this John Cuerton Jr, is the one that went to Bilbao. If so, he was born around 1520
> at Ighfield in Shropshire. I can't see the bottom portion of the tree to confirm.
taf
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 2:26:41 AM6/6/21
to
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 9:14:52 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Well, After checking the images again, it seems that the coat of arms
> belonging to Elena's father is gules, with six billets possibly golden or
> blue originally, but now showing in what appears to be gray, and a
> center band, that on first sight appears to be golden, but divided into
> ten squares, but which appear to have been alternating golden and
> possibly blue.
The arms in the second tier impaled by the Cuerton coat is 'ermine, 3 bends gules', which the Dict of Brit Arms attributes to Quenkyn, but that doesn't match the blurry text of the image. Papworth also gives it for Boors, Gules, Knowling, Smirke, and Vachell.
I will look some more later.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 7:58:12 AM6/6/21
to
Thanks for the effort!
I actually never expected to actually get to see an image of the tree with the arms or of the grant itself. It is unfortunate that the copy of the arms found in a grant found at in manuscript form is incomplete, missing the arms and the tree, and that the images of the tree are too blurry. I guess the seller at least decided to publish them. Otherwise, we would not even have that. I guess that the tree and specially the arms suffered some damage for being stored along with the grant for four centuries, and that causes the tinctures to be erased specially on the right side.
However, there may have another copy at the College of Arms because in the last century Dr. Cureton did extensive research on his Cureton lines and seems to have come across the Cuertons of Lancashire, and in particular, he did mention the arms showing the apparently Sarracen swords and the bicephalous eagles. He theorized but as far as I know did not prove, that these arms could have come into the Curetons from a French family, possibly from Gascony, from a line old enough to be in the Crusades. In that case they might not be English arms, but French.
The time period i am looking for is 15th century or possibly a little earlier, as the document and the tree were prepared in 1559, and these arms correspond to grand parents and great-grand-parents of men born between 1500 and 1525 at the latest.
I am hoping to find a way of obtaining clearer images of the text. It is also not clear if these families from Lancashire or Cheshire. I am guessing that if John's wife was not Eyton (which I think can be ruled out from the arms), she might have been Iveson, or Icson, possibly from Ightfield.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to track down the rest of the Cuertons from that town, if there were any descendants of George Cuerton (John Cuerton's brother), but it is next to Calverhall, and I seem to recall there were either Cuertons or Curetons there also in the 16th century.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 8:41:53 AM6/6/21
to
I will dig out around to see what else shows up about that couple, if anything. The images, it seems clear that Alicia's father was a knight, and the only one I see so far, the rest seem to show up in the tree as armigers, except for a couple that are too blurry. I am trying to find out if there is a connection to Cheshire through these Sanford or Brereton, which might explain why part of the investigation for preparing the grant seems to have been carried out there.
The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been azur and silver.
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 12:39:28 PM6/6/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
[snip]
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> azur and silver.
These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
> seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> azur and silver.
The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
B. Quarterly 1 & 4, azure, a saracen sword (?) argent, hilted or; 2 & 3, gules, within a bordure argent a double-headed eagle displayed of the same.
C. Per chevron sable and argent, in chief two boar's heads of the first - Sandford (? Sondford)
D. Argent, 2 bars sable - (? Brereton)
E. Ermine, 3 bends gules (I already discussed this - similar arms bendy of 6 links to Queikin/Coykin)
F. Quarterly, 1 & 4, gules, a fess chequy azure between 6 billets argent and or; 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or; 3 argent a cross fleury able, on a canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or - the second of these appears in Dict Brit Arms attributed to several families, but most listed is Stapleton, the last of these is Peshale/Peshall/Pearsall. An alternative rendering of the first would be gules, billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure, which is attributed to de la Lee, but I am not convinced that could be the surname given these people by the pedigree. Nonetheless, [de la] Lee in the Shropshire 1623 visitation (a fess componee or and azure between 8 billets arg - but again, 8 billets could just be a representation of billetty) is quartering this specific variant of Peshall.
G. vert, a wolf's head argent erased
Based on the layout and the description in the earlier thread that they were gentry to the [generation of the] great-grandparent, it looks to me like the entire pedigree is shown except for the bottom tips of the bottom shields. It begins with William Cuerton, gent {Arms A}, who married an heiress, Agatha de [ ], daughter of Sir John de [ ]{B}. His son Alexander (?) Cuerton married [ ], daughter of Thomas [ ]{E}, and their son was John Cuerton of Ytfeld (i.e. Ightfield) in the county of [Shropshire], gent, who married Ellen [(de la Lee???)], daughter of John [ ] {F (claiming heirship to two other families including Peshall)} by the daughter of William Sandford, gent {C}, and Alice Brereton, daughter of Sir Ralph Brereton {D}. John and Ellen then had two sons, heir George Cuerton, who married Agnes Poe(or /Loe), daughter of Humphrey Poe(/Loe) {G} and younger son John Cuerton, at the time unmarried, who would be the Bilbao merchant.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 1:22:19 PM6/6/21
to
I will keep looking around in the visitations and others for possible clues.
There is a somewhat similar arms to 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or
in one of the surviving coats of arms of the Beretons
2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or
However i don't think that one is crowned, possibly totally unrelated.
http://www.thehennesseefamily.com/media/The_Breretons_of_Cheshire.pdf
Question: if someone is styled sir in such a document, can we assume he was a knight?
I thought a little bit odd that the tree shows a line to great-grandparents on the mother's side, but not on the maternal grandfather side which is what I was expecting to see.. Perhaps the couple Sandford - Brereton were better known.
J Sardina
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 2:24:20 PM6/6/21
to
> Question: if someone is styled sir in such a document, can we assume he was a knight?
> I thought a little bit odd that the tree shows a line to great-grandparents on the mother's side,
> but not on the maternal grandfather side which is what I was expecting to see.. Perhaps the
> couple Sandford - Brereton were better known.
taf
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 3:57:56 PM6/6/21
to
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 11:26:27 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:36:48 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > One of the sections show a line coming down from William Sanford,
> > armiger, married Alicia....daughter of a knight (the coat of arms are visible).
> His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
>
> I note that in 1503, William de Sondford 'of the Lee' granted to a group including Randulf Brereton of Malpas, Richard Sondford of Sondford, Ralph Brereton, gent, and George Bromley, for the use of William during his life and that of Alice his wife after his decease, to the use of Richard his son.
> https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bb21cbcd-86be-4731-961d-c771dea7f01c
>
> This is probably the same William de Sondford, son of Gruffin de Sondford of Shaynton who made a grant in 1470 along with the rector of Ightfield.
I notice the Burke's Landed Gentry has this Griffin de Sandford as son of Nicholas de Sandford of Sandford and his wife Alice Boteler of Wemme.
> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:36:48 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > One of the sections show a line coming down from William Sanford,
> > armiger, married Alicia....daughter of a knight (the coat of arms are visible).
> His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
>
> I note that in 1503, William de Sondford 'of the Lee' granted to a group including Randulf Brereton of Malpas, Richard Sondford of Sondford, Ralph Brereton, gent, and George Bromley, for the use of William during his life and that of Alice his wife after his decease, to the use of Richard his son.
> https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bb21cbcd-86be-4731-961d-c771dea7f01c
>
> This is probably the same William de Sondford, son of Gruffin de Sondford of Shaynton who made a grant in 1470 along with the rector of Ightfield.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F_4GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA666
Eyton appears to intend the same, but transposes the date as 1407.
https://books.google.com/books?id=rfY9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA237
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 4:05:46 PM6/6/21
to
I have reading about the Peshale and it seems they did use arms with a cross fleury, with a canton including a lion crowned, but the images i have seen have no colors.
Juan
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 4:25:19 PM6/6/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 1:05:46 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Sorry I didn't send the exact page. where a coat of arms of a line of
> Breretons appears with a coat of arms that includes a quarter that
> is similar to the lion rampant, armed, in question. it is repeated on
> page 1, but page 18 is that one that explains the arms are to be found.
Though this is a lion on a silver background, by my eye it is a red lion and the background is patterned with blue arrows, so this is only superficially similar.
> Sorry I didn't send the exact page. where a coat of arms of a line of
> Breretons appears with a coat of arms that includes a quarter that
> is similar to the lion rampant, armed, in question. it is repeated on
> page 1, but page 18 is that one that explains the arms are to be found.
> In the same image we can see another quarter with a cross azure that
> is very similar to one shown in one of the quarters for the wife of John
> Cuerton Sr, but without the red canton (argent a cross fleury able, on a
> canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or).
> I have reading about the Peshale and it seems they did use arms with
> a cross fleury, with a canton including a lion crowned, but the images
> i have seen have no colors.
Have you tried any of the photo-sharpening software on the images of the document?
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 6, 2021, 7:07:17 PM6/6/21
to
I have been playing with some picture enhancement software, but it does not seem to improve text readability a lot. It does improve pictures and it seems to be able to bring out details on the pictures and backgrounds.
In particular, i think i can read William Cuerton de Darlaton, armiger, which would be the first Cuerton of this line. I don't think it says Darlaston. For the wife I think it may say Agneta, fillia et heires Jetro (or Petro) Beyodithem milites. It seems this line would be the owner of the coat of arms containing the eagles and the swords.
I am going to some friends to see if they know of a program that could enhance pictures but specifically with the intention of reading legends.
j. Sardina
taf
Jun 6, 2021, 10:07:48 PM6/6/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 4:07:17 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> But i am definitely having a difficult time trying to find English arms with sarracen daggers or swords.
I may have found this one, or at least a candidate. Taking artistic and editorial licence into account, there are a number of possible blades this could be representing including simply a sword, falchion, sabre, etc. DBA groups all swords together, but hasn't any bendwise on an azure background. Papworth does, listing 'azure a cutlass in bend proper garnished or' for Tattall or Tatnall, co. Berks. This seems geographically distant, but a differenced version of these arms appear in the 1613 visitation of Cheshire as a quartering of Calveley of Lea, there attributed to Tattnall, and described as 'azure, a sword in bend argent, a bordure engrailed or'. You might want to give Tattenhall/Tattnall/Tatnall a closer look.
> But i am definitely having a difficult time trying to find English arms with sarracen daggers or swords.
taf
juan sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 5:03:54 AM6/7/21
to
I am going to look into that direction then. Now that you mention Calveley, i will need to dig up some old notes, but i have been told about two years ago off the group that the arms of John Cuerton's ancestor were found in an old book of arms in the possession of one of the Calveleys. Possibly independently of that, Dr. Cureton, who researched the Curetons and Cuertons families of Shropshire extensively in the mid and early 20th century published a series of articles on his findings, if I remember correctly about Southern Families, including a series on Curetons and Masseys. In one of them he does mention these daggers and theorized that they meant crusader origin for one of the lines. I will try locating the exact quote since I only see the images of these articles online. In another article he proposed that these Quertons came to northern Shropshire with the Calveleys and that it was possible that one of them had served in Gascony under sir Hugh Calveley.
J. Sardina
juan sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 5:22:07 AM6/7/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
I am wondering if the surname of George Cuerton's wife, that seems to be Loe or Poe, though the first letter is somewhat slimmer than a P, and tall, could be Lea. Also, perhaps George Cuerton's family, whose surname is not decipherable yet from the images was also from Cheshire and had been in Shropshire for only a couple of generations. Going back to other families. This particular book mentions a few arms from Cheshire from a Visitation in 1580 https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/64-6-Dorling.pdf
They include an eagle for Bird, but I don't know he tinctures. and it may be a coincidence.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 8:43:25 AM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 2:22:07 AM UTC-7, juan sardina wrote:
> This particular book mentions a few arms from Cheshire from a Visitation in 1580
> This particular book mentions a few arms from Cheshire from a Visitation in 1580
> They include an eagle for Bird, but I don't know he tinctures. and it may be a coincidence.
Entirely coincidence. One is a silver 2-headed eagle on red background with a silver bordure, the other a black single-headed eagle on a silver and gold background. As tempting as it is to look for connections, just having a similar charge is non-meaningful. There are about 18 shields in that visitation with an eagle displayed, but none close enough. Even the one with a double-headed eagle, a quartering of Millington, doesn't have matching or similar tinctures.
Even the golden two-headed eagle on red found twice in the Shropshire visitation is likely just coincidence. A gold-to-silver shift would be a possible differencing, but it is also just a standard choice - if one wants a red shield, then the only choices for a charge are silver or gold or a fur.
The only two coats I would give further attention to would be if we found in the same area a shield with the same tinctures but either missing the bordure or having a bordure of different tincture, or else a shield that is identical, minus one head.
taf
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 9:26:19 AM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 2:22:07 AM UTC-7, juan sardina wrote:
> I am wondering if the surname of George Cuerton's wife, that seems
> to be Loe or Poe, though the first letter is somewhat slimmer than a
> P, and tall, could be Lea.
While I am not entirely happy with the reading of the first letter, one has to be careful in applying 21st century expectations of what letters should look like to 16th century script. I still lean toward P, as I have seen it represented similarly elsewhere, but even if it is a L, Lea is not really an option. If you look at how the author does his vowels, he has a different initial 'a', like in 'Armiger' and 'Agnes' than his medial and terminal 'a' of 'filia' and 'frater', but both are clearly different than what we are seeing in this surname. The second letter is like neither of these 'a's nor the 'e' in 'heres', and 'et', which have a left-side crescent-shaped stroke that loops at the top to make a narrow diagonal back to the crescent's middle, exactly what is seen in the final letter of this unknown surname. While the middle letter's large circular and completely open shape, even more so than other 'o's in the text such as 'Johis' and 'Cuerton', is too dissimilar from every other vowel to be anything but an 'o'. The ending letter could be a consonant, but of those of similar shape and size, we see a terminal 's' in 'heres' and it is different, and though a 'c' is a possibility and there are no medial or terminal examples, I just don't think an -oc ending is very likely. Whatever the first letter is, this surname almost certainly ends in -oe.
> to be Loe or Poe, though the first letter is somewhat slimmer than a
> P, and tall, could be Lea.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 11:40:39 AM6/7/21
to
Thanks for the attention and the details.
Hopefully i am not the only trying to read this type of documents in this age. I am trying to get better resolution pictures from the vendor, which I think it is unlikely the vendor will be willing to provide them.
But even if it did, I think i will still run into an issue with some of the names. This one in particular. I will need to see if i can get enough L's and P's. Even when magnified, it still looks like oe. I will keep looking for Poe in the counties of interest in the 15th century. Loe I have never seen.
The surname of Elena is also a mystery. It does not seem to match what I have seen elsewhere in the other original document in which Cuerton was presenting his case in Bilbao. In that one it is very short and seems to start with Y followed by one letter followed by either -son or -ton, which I took to mean Ycsun or Ycson.
In the tree the last name seems a little longer and start with I, L or J. it seems to end with -son but I am afraid I am imagining things. I am getting something like Ianson or Janson. But it could also be Icson. The middle section is too blurry.
As for her father name it may be Latin and not in English, and hopefully not abbreviated. Sometimes I think I see Ludic or Judic. If it is actually Ludovic ( and I don't think there is enough space for that), it would make some sense since John Cuerton Jr named his third son Luis. He had two sons named John in succession, but they seem to have died young. Luis survived but had not legitimate children. I am not sure if he had any children at all.
Thanks
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 12:15:45 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 8:40:39 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> The surname of Elena is also a mystery. It does not seem to match what I
> have seen elsewhere in the other original document in which Cuerton was
> presenting his case in Bilbao. In that one it is very short and seems to start
> with Y followed by one letter followed by either -son or -ton, which I took to
> mean Ycsun or Ycson.
It is longer than this. By my eye it looks to be 6 or 7 letters long, and I don't think it begins with a Y. Were I to guess on the ending, it would be -ton rather than -son.
> The surname of Elena is also a mystery. It does not seem to match what I
> have seen elsewhere in the other original document in which Cuerton was
> presenting his case in Bilbao. In that one it is very short and seems to start
> with Y followed by one letter followed by either -son or -ton, which I took to
> mean Ycsun or Ycson.
> As for her father name it may be Latin and not in English, and hopefully not abbreviated.
taf
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 12:45:49 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:15:45 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> Alexander Cuerton's bride with the three red bends on ermine has a name
> that is just three letters long, and seems to end in an -a, and possibly even
> -ia, in which case M'ia (Maria/Mary) seems most likely, but it is so blurry
> none of this is certain and other short names are possible, such as Eva or
> Ana (Anne).
Sorry, strike this - I lost track of what I was looking at. I was reading the second half of the line as filia, but then filia begins the third line, so this is part of the name. With that in mind, it reads as _a!ilia (where the ! represents a single tall-stroke letter). Best guess is Mabilia. I tried to sharpen it with my own software, and the surname jumped out at me as Paine, but this is not a surname associated with the arms I can't be sure this isn't an artifact of the sharpening and the inherent human tendency to see the familiar in what is little more than random material.
> Alexander Cuerton's bride with the three red bends on ermine has a name
> that is just three letters long, and seems to end in an -a, and possibly even
> -ia, in which case M'ia (Maria/Mary) seems most likely, but it is so blurry
> none of this is certain and other short names are possible, such as Eva or
> Ana (Anne).
taf
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 1:11:06 PM6/7/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 4:07:17 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> In particular, i think i can read William Cuerton de Darlaton, armiger, which
> would be the first Cuerton of this line. I don't think it says Darlaston.
I think it could be either, but I think Darlaston is more likely. A long slanting 's' with a 't' underneath it may not be distinguishable at this level of blurriness.
> In particular, i think i can read William Cuerton de Darlaton, armiger, which
> would be the first Cuerton of this line. I don't think it says Darlaston.
> For the wife I think it may say Agneta, fillia et heires Jetro (or Petro) Beyodithem milites.
> It seems this line would be the owner of the coat of arms containing the eagles and the swords.
taf
Johnny Brananas
Jun 7, 2021, 4:15:48 PM6/7/21
to
Undated exemplification of arms of John Cuerton, dwelling at Bilbao, by Harvey Clarencieux is on p. 183, without any illustrations:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015033537070&view=1up&seq=247&q1=bilbao
Further along, on pp. 190-91, is a patent of arms to John More, of Cheshire, dwelling in Bilboa, with some illustrations (specifically, arms of Pigot, Ridley, Cuerton, and [? Foster]).
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015033537070&view=1up&seq=254&q1=bilbao
I just mention this because the description on the Margarita de Dios website offering mentions ... "John Moore, factor en Bilbao y alderman de Londres (1591-1603)," in association with John Cuerton.
Johnny Brananas
Jun 7, 2021, 4:24:04 PM6/7/21
to
J. Sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 5:24:50 PM6/7/21
to
I wonder what became of his grant of arms, which may have made it to Bilbao. I guess he took it back to London when he returned to England a few years later. It may have ended up in the archive of the Tresham's family. At least the copy of the grant for John Moore did include the Cuerton arms, but not the quartering and there is one coat that was left empty. I don't know if the original of the grant made to John Moore survives to this date.
The seller website does mention the Treshams, and also the story of John Cuerton's daughter marrying one merchant who should have inherited from a rich uncle. The affair is mentioned in one letter in the duke of Norfolk's archive. The letter in question has been transcribed and the transcription is in a publicly available book. As far as I the children of John More and Maria Cuerton all died in childhood, and it doesn't seem that he had other children outside the marriage.
The descendants and heirs of one of the daughters of John Cuerton gave their family papers to the Sancho El Sabio institution (where i found the original request for information made from Bilbao to England) a few years ago. Obviously the grant itself escaped. It might have been kept by the other family descendants of another daughter.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 5:41:26 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:15:48 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 6:37:41 PM6/7/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 10:07:48 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
I have been looking and I do see the said arms of Calveley of Lea, showing the Tattnall arms as you describe.
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/visitations1613/CV1613_5.html
The marriage of sir Hugh Calveley and Eleanor Tattenhall is shown at
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/calverley-sir-hugh-1506-58
Here Eleanor is described as "da. and h. of Thomas Tattenhall of Bulkeley and Harthill." and born around 1532
I am now trying to find out if Thomas Tattenhall came from a younger branch of that family and if that is why the arms are shown with a bordure. If so, where was the elder line of the Tattenhall? Or were they Tattnall?
According to the site http://www.4crests.com/tatnall-coat-of-arms.html
there was an earlier Thomas Tattnall of County Chester, documented in the year 1459,
but I don't know where this information comes from.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 7:42:20 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:26:19 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> Whatever the first letter is, this surname almost certainly ends in -oe.
TNA: C 1/1094/154
> Whatever the first letter is, this surname almost certainly ends in -oe.
Short title: [Unknown] v Cuerton.
Plaintiffs: [unknown].
Defendants: George CUERTON and Robert LOWE.
Note: Damaged.
Date: 1538-1544
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
It could just be coincidence, but I could easily see Lowe being written as Loe.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 8:14:24 PM6/7/21
to
There is also an entry for a Lowe family of Alveley in the Shropshire archives:
13 June 28 Elizabeth (1586) Agnes Pennell of Lowe in the parish of Alveley widow...
This record is held by Shropshire Archives
See contact details
Reference: 2029/6
Description:
13 June 28 Elizabeth (1586)
Agnes Pennell of Lowe in the parish of Alveley widow onfeoffs William Mounde of Lyaridge co Worcs yeoman and Hugh Lowe of Alveley yeoman in that messuage or tenement called le Lowe in the parish of Alveley new occupied by Agnes, with all appurtenances and a cottage, within the lordship and parish of Alveley which she had by feoffment of Humfrey Lowe deceased her late father, by the arbitrament of Walter Blownt esq,to these uses:- to use of Agnes for her life and after to use of William Pennell gentleman, her son and heir, and heirs of the body of William Pennell, in default remainder to the right heirs of Agnes. Warranty
However, this could be a different Lowe family.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 9:36:18 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 5:14:24 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Thanks. I am not certain that the Cuerton line survived, but there seem to be quite a few Lowe, though i don't know if any of them had arms in the Tudor period.
Numerous different Lowe families. Add in Low and together Burke's Armory gives about 2 dozen separate entries (none with the coat in our pedigree). Probably unsafe to assume any specific Low/Lowe is a member of the relevant lineage without an association to the Cuertons, to the coat of arms, or to the land involved in the suit. I mistakenly left it out, but the lawsuit was over lands in Staffs.
> Thanks. I am not certain that the Cuerton line survived, but there seem to be quite a few Lowe, though i don't know if any of them had arms in the Tudor period.
taf
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 10:07:29 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:36:18 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> Probably unsafe to assume any specific Low/Lowe is a member
> of the relevant lineage without an association to the Cuertons, to
> the coat of arms, or to the land involved in the suit. I mistakenly
> left it out, but the lawsuit was over lands in Staffs.
. . . and here is an association. The Cuerton/Lowe suit involved tenements in Kemsey, Staffs. The only other lawsuit involving Lowe and Kemsey at TNA is the following:
> Probably unsafe to assume any specific Low/Lowe is a member
> of the relevant lineage without an association to the Cuertons, to
> the coat of arms, or to the land involved in the suit. I mistakenly
> left it out, but the lawsuit was over lands in Staffs.
Reference: C 1/538/34
Short title: Lowe v Wolaston.
Plaintiffs: Margaret, late the wife of Humphrey, son and heir of William Lowe and Agnes Lowe, daughter of Humphrey and Margaret.
Defendants: Roger Wolaston and William Lowe.
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in Loynton, Kemsey, Wolton, High Offley, Gnosall and Norbury. Staffordshire.
Date: 1518-1529
The original can be seen here:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/ChP/C1no538/IMG_0052.htm
So, in the pedigree we have a Humphrey Loe with daughter Agnes married to George Cuerton, and in these two suits we have a Humphrey Lowe with a daughter Agnes involved in a lawsuit over Kemsey (with other lands) then a few years later we have George Cuerton involved in a suit over Kemsey.
taf
juan sardina
Jun 7, 2021, 10:36:25 PM6/7/21
to
Perhaps the Cuertons had some interests in Staffordshire from a few generations before, from possibly a wife from Staffordshire, if the first one in the line William, did settle at Darlaston. It is impossible to tell if he was born there or in Lancashire. But perhaps his wife was from the area. If we could confirm that there was a Lowe family with the coat of arms shown in the pedigree, in that area, during the Tudors, I think we could be sure.
Question: Was there a visitation of Staffordshire in that period that might throw some light?
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 7, 2021, 11:38:06 PM6/7/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:36:25 PM UTC-7, juan sardina wrote:
> Question: Was there a visitation of Staffordshire in that period that might throw some light?
There was a visitation in the early 1530s that covered Staffs along with several other counties (Works, Gloucs, Oxon, Berks, Wilts), but it has never been published. The earliest published is 1583, then there are 1614 and 1663/4.
> Question: Was there a visitation of Staffordshire in that period that might throw some light?
https://books.google.com/books?id=ADsRAQAAIAAJ&pg=PR3#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR5#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://archive.org/details/staffordshireped00dugd/page/n7/mode/1up?view=theater
taf
juan sardina
Jun 8, 2021, 12:08:34 AM6/8/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 12:39:28 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
> B. Quarterly 1 & 4, azure, a saracen sword (?) argent, hilted or; 2 & 3, gules, within a bordure argent a double-headed eagle displayed of the same.
> C. Per chevron sable and argent, in chief two boar's heads of the first - Sandford (? Sondford)
> D. Argent, 2 bars sable - (? Brereton)
> E. Ermine, 3 bends gules (I already discussed this - similar arms bendy of 6 links to Queikin/Coykin)
> F. Quarterly, 1 & 4, gules, a fess chequy azure between 6 billets argent and or; 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or; 3 argent a cross fleury able, on a canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or - the second of these appears in Dict Brit Arms attributed to several families, but most listed is Stapleton, the last of these is Peshale/Peshall/Pearsall. An alternative rendering of the first would be gules, billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure, which is attributed to de la Lee, but I am not convinced that could be the surname given these people by the pedigree. Nonetheless, [de la] Lee in the Shropshire 1623 visitation (a fess componee or and azure between 8 billets arg - but again, 8 billets could just be a representation of billetty) is quartering this specific variant of Peshall.
> G. vert, a wolf's head argent erased
>
> Based on the layout and the description in the earlier thread that they were gentry to the [generation of the] great-grandparent, it looks to me like the entire pedigree is shown except for the bottom tips of the bottom shields. It begins with William Cuerton, gent {Arms A}, who married an heiress, Agatha de [ ], daughter of Sir John de [ ]{B}. His son Alexander (?) Cuerton married [ ], daughter of Thomas [ ]{E}, and their son was John Cuerton of Ytfeld (i.e. Ightfield) in the county of [Shropshire], gent, who married Ellen [(de la Lee???)], daughter of John [ ] {F (claiming heirship to two other families including Peshall)} by the daughter of William Sandford, gent {C}, and Alice Brereton, daughter of Sir Ralph Brereton {D}. John and Ellen then had two sons, heir George Cuerton, who married Agnes Poe(or /Loe), daughter of Humphrey Poe(/Loe) {G} and younger son John Cuerton, at the time unmarried, who would be the Bilbao merchant.
>
> taf
Hello,
Most likely it is a coincidence but looking around the net there is a site where information has been compiled about certain families,
and in particular it shows a line of Stapleton in Shropshire, with rather distant ancestors de la Lee and Burnell.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-383
Katherine Burnell, born, say, 1350. Located in Langley, Shropshire. Daughter of Edward Burnall, and Margaret Lee. Granddaughter of William Burnall. This Katherine married John Stapleton, born 1350 in Stapleton. Firm dates:
1377 Father Edward burnell's IPM..
I am afraid that even if the family shown by the coats of arms is this line of Stapleton, the Lee connection is too far away.
But of course, there could have been a further Lee connection in a generation not shown in the Cuerton tree.
J. Sardina
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> [snip]
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
> B. Quarterly 1 & 4, azure, a saracen sword (?) argent, hilted or; 2 & 3, gules, within a bordure argent a double-headed eagle displayed of the same.
> C. Per chevron sable and argent, in chief two boar's heads of the first - Sandford (? Sondford)
> D. Argent, 2 bars sable - (? Brereton)
> E. Ermine, 3 bends gules (I already discussed this - similar arms bendy of 6 links to Queikin/Coykin)
> F. Quarterly, 1 & 4, gules, a fess chequy azure between 6 billets argent and or; 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or; 3 argent a cross fleury able, on a canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or - the second of these appears in Dict Brit Arms attributed to several families, but most listed is Stapleton, the last of these is Peshale/Peshall/Pearsall. An alternative rendering of the first would be gules, billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure, which is attributed to de la Lee, but I am not convinced that could be the surname given these people by the pedigree. Nonetheless, [de la] Lee in the Shropshire 1623 visitation (a fess componee or and azure between 8 billets arg - but again, 8 billets could just be a representation of billetty) is quartering this specific variant of Peshall.
> G. vert, a wolf's head argent erased
>
> Based on the layout and the description in the earlier thread that they were gentry to the [generation of the] great-grandparent, it looks to me like the entire pedigree is shown except for the bottom tips of the bottom shields. It begins with William Cuerton, gent {Arms A}, who married an heiress, Agatha de [ ], daughter of Sir John de [ ]{B}. His son Alexander (?) Cuerton married [ ], daughter of Thomas [ ]{E}, and their son was John Cuerton of Ytfeld (i.e. Ightfield) in the county of [Shropshire], gent, who married Ellen [(de la Lee???)], daughter of John [ ] {F (claiming heirship to two other families including Peshall)} by the daughter of William Sandford, gent {C}, and Alice Brereton, daughter of Sir Ralph Brereton {D}. John and Ellen then had two sons, heir George Cuerton, who married Agnes Poe(or /Loe), daughter of Humphrey Poe(/Loe) {G} and younger son John Cuerton, at the time unmarried, who would be the Bilbao merchant.
>
> taf
Hello,
Most likely it is a coincidence but looking around the net there is a site where information has been compiled about certain families,
and in particular it shows a line of Stapleton in Shropshire, with rather distant ancestors de la Lee and Burnell.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-383
Katherine Burnell, born, say, 1350. Located in Langley, Shropshire. Daughter of Edward Burnall, and Margaret Lee. Granddaughter of William Burnall. This Katherine married John Stapleton, born 1350 in Stapleton. Firm dates:
1377 Father Edward burnell's IPM..
I am afraid that even if the family shown by the coats of arms is this line of Stapleton, the Lee connection is too far away.
But of course, there could have been a further Lee connection in a generation not shown in the Cuerton tree.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 9, 2021, 5:32:05 PM6/9/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:08:34 PM UTC-7, juan sardina wrote:
> Most likely it is a coincidence but looking around the net there is a site where information has been compiled about certain families,
> and in particular it shows a line of Stapleton in Shropshire, with rather distant ancestors de la Lee and Burnell.
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-383
>
> Katherine Burnell, born, say, 1350. Located in Langley, Shropshire. Daughter of Edward Burnall, and Margaret Lee. Granddaughter of William Burnall. This Katherine married John Stapleton, born 1350 in Stapleton. Firm dates:
> 1377 Father Edward burnell's IPM..
>
> I am afraid that even if the family shown by the coats of arms is this line of Stapleton, the Lee connection is too far away.
> But of course, there could have been a further Lee connection in a generation not shown in the Cuerton tree.
>
One has to be careful in citing 'rules of heraldry', but this is not the kind of relationship one would expect to underlie the arms see. If the coats really are Lee and Stapleton, and both of them are nothing but guesses, one would expect a Lee family that married a Stapleton heiress, and not the other way around. There are instances where a female-line coat was 'promoted' to the 1st/4th position in quartered arms, but they are the unusual exception.
> Most likely it is a coincidence but looking around the net there is a site where information has been compiled about certain families,
> and in particular it shows a line of Stapleton in Shropshire, with rather distant ancestors de la Lee and Burnell.
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-383
>
> Katherine Burnell, born, say, 1350. Located in Langley, Shropshire. Daughter of Edward Burnall, and Margaret Lee. Granddaughter of William Burnall. This Katherine married John Stapleton, born 1350 in Stapleton. Firm dates:
> 1377 Father Edward burnell's IPM..
>
> I am afraid that even if the family shown by the coats of arms is this line of Stapleton, the Lee connection is too far away.
> But of course, there could have been a further Lee connection in a generation not shown in the Cuerton tree.
>
taf
taf
Jun 9, 2021, 6:33:40 PM6/9/21
to
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:36:25 PM UTC-7, juan sardina wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:07:29 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > So, in the pedigree we have a Humphrey Loe with daughter Agnes married
> > to George Cuerton, and in these two suits we have a Humphrey Lowe with
> > a daughter Agnes involved in a lawsuit over Kemsey (with other lands) then
> > a few years later we have George Cuerton involved in a suit over Kemsey.
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:07:29 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > So, in the pedigree we have a Humphrey Loe with daughter Agnes married
> > to George Cuerton, and in these two suits we have a Humphrey Lowe with
> > a daughter Agnes involved in a lawsuit over Kemsey (with other lands) then
> > a few years later we have George Cuerton involved in a suit over Kemsey.
> Very interesting. There seem to be at least some coincidences in names, maybe
> too many not to make one inclined to think we are seeing the same families.
I am often a voice of caution when it comes to name's-the-same identifications, but I would have little hesitation in concluding these are the same people. That said, it doesn't really get us anywhere, because everyone involved is pretty obscure.
> too many not to make one inclined to think we are seeing the same families.
If you are interested in this particular connection, I would give a look at the original documents. The earlier one you can look at online, the other, the George Cuerton suit, is not online, but if you order an image of it from Kew, and depending on how damaged it is, it may provide details on the land claims that include genealogical detail not evident from the catalogue entry.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 9, 2021, 9:18:05 PM6/9/21
to
I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times. Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank). It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as Yc_on. The set of documents came into that archive a few years ago. For some reason the grant itself became separated from this set at some point. Perhaps it was kept by Cuerton's other daughter.
It does mention the place as Ytte_al. i thought the letter was s or d, but it could have been f. to produce something that perhaps sounds like Ightfield in Spanish of the 16th century. I guess the scribes wrote what they understood John Cuerton said. The other place name I read to be Darla_u, which seems to be correspond to Darlaston, and it says that John Cuerton Sr came from there to Ightfield where he met and married Elena. If that is correct, her father had settled there some time before, perhaps around 1500.
On the back of that last page of the manuscript, there is short list in a different handwriting, in a small very dark ink that gives a list of names in English. I think it may be by John Cuerton and I do see a few Johns and Williams, but I haven't been able to decipher if it corresponds to a list of people to contact, or associates, or to some of the names in the grant.
I will try getting images from the documents from Kew to see if they give any clues about George's family.
Of course, most these people belonged to a minor families and most of them would be very obscure.
If one turns out to be traceable, it might from four generations before, and from one of the more distant lines.
j sardina
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 12:55:39 AM6/10/21
to
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 6:18:05 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
What an odd script, with the 'Co' ligature appearing like infinity (∞) and half the 's's looking like 8s, plus the way he sometimes begins Alexander with the 'A' at the end of the line, then 'lexander' on the next.
> I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
> Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank).
> It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as
> Yc_on.
> It does mention the place as Ytte_al. i thought the letter was s or d, but it could have been
> f. to produce something that perhaps sounds like Ightfield in Spanish of the 16th century.
> The other place name I read to be Darla_u, which seems to be correspond to Darlaston
I will have to give it a longer look to figure out the repeated reference to the county of Lancaster - I was really just picking out your problem words in my first pass.
taf
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 1:14:34 AM6/10/21
to
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:55:39 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 6:18:05 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
>
> > I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> > investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> > Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
> What an odd script, with the 'Co' ligature appearing like infinity (∞) and half the 's's looking like 8s, plus the way he sometimes begins Alexander with the 'A' at the end of the line, then 'lexander' on the next.
> > Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank).
> > It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as
> > Yc_on.
> I read this as Ycson, so it seems to be a patronymic (could it be Hickson)?
Sorry, I meant to type Ycsun, but it doesn't change the interpretation.
> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 6:18:05 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
>
> > I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> > investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> > Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
> What an odd script, with the 'Co' ligature appearing like infinity (∞) and half the 's's looking like 8s, plus the way he sometimes begins Alexander with the 'A' at the end of the line, then 'lexander' on the next.
> > Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank).
> > It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as
> > Yc_on.
> I read this as Ycson, so it seems to be a patronymic (could it be Hickson)?
> > It does mention the place as Ytte_al. i thought the letter was s or d, but it could have been
> > f. to produce something that perhaps sounds like Ightfield in Spanish of the 16th century.
> Yttefel. The mystery letter has the same top look and cross as in 'fue' earlier in the sentence. The bottoms are different, but I think this has to do with the different following letters. I think this is a reasonable rendering of Ightfield.
taf
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 1:27:28 AM6/10/21
to
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:14:34 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:55:39 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 6:18:05 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> >
> > > I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> > > investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> > > Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
> > What an odd script, with the 'Co' ligature appearing like infinity (∞) and half the 's's looking like 8s, plus the way he sometimes begins Alexander with the 'A' at the end of the line, then 'lexander' on the next.
> > > Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank).
> > > It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as
> > > Yc_on.
> > I read this as Ycson, so it seems to be a patronymic (could it be Hickson)?
Now that I have a better idea what to look for (and risking confirmation bias), returning to the other document a possible reading of Elena's surname there is 'Hikson'.
> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:55:39 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 6:18:05 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> >
> > > I still need to follow up on another document. It is the original request to initiate the
> > > investigation at Bilbao. That one is from 1558 and it still survives and it is online at the
> > > Sancho El Sabio archive. It is in Spanish and I have read it a few times.
> > What an odd script, with the 'Co' ligature appearing like infinity (∞) and half the 's's looking like 8s, plus the way he sometimes begins Alexander with the 'A' at the end of the line, then 'lexander' on the next.
> > > Unfortunately, it does not show the name of Alexander Cuerton's wife (it was left blank).
> > > It does show John Cuerton's mother Elena, but her surname seems to be in shorthand as
> > > Yc_on.
> > I read this as Ycson, so it seems to be a patronymic (could it be Hickson)?
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 10, 2021, 5:41:03 AM6/10/21
to
You are right, one risk "contaminating" expectations when trying to match one document to another one.
I thought it could be Hickson because in Spanish the H is silent and the Y and I could both been used. The son or sun part seemed clear.
I thought that it might be Hickson, but couldn't find any Hicksons that matched in Lancashire or Shropshire or Cheshire, but perhaps I might have been looking in the wrong county, or the line moved from one to another one in a short span of generations. Apparently the Cuertons did just that.
It is a mystery why the request mentions Lancashire and Shropshire only, with the line originating specifically in Leyland, but the chart prepared by the king of arms does not show Alexander or his father coming from there (unless it is in the letters we can't read clearly).
The last page of that set of document seems extra long and the back is blank, except for a list of names at a corner. The document appears to show water damage on one side. I am wondering if at one point it was covering the grant of arms and that is why part of the chart lost tinctures in certain areas but not others.
Both sets of documents were prepared within a span of three years and they seem to be for the same family. What is missing is the investigation results. I was able to find them for Rogel Jofresum, from the same period. There is a set of documents with the Spanish translation at Bilbao. I have not been able to find such a file for John More, but we have the summary of his grant at least, showing at least some of the coats of arms, including the Cuerton arms. Apparently it was prepared after his marriage to John Cuerton's daughter was known in England.
Question: In a situation where two brothers obtained the grant/recognition of arms, would both have received identical sets of documents, whatever their form? The one sent to Bilbao seems quite expensive (but I have no idea how much it would have cost in those times, including the investigation at various places), but George was the older sibling.
Many thanks for your help,
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 9:28:22 AM6/10/21
to
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 2:41:03 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> I thought it could be Hickson because in Spanish the H is silent and
> the Y and I could both been used.
To a lot of British the H is silent, and likewise with Y/I. A reference to Hychen Ferry from an 18th century Southampton baptism turned out to refer to the Itchen River.
> I thought it could be Hickson because in Spanish the H is silent and
> the Y and I could both been used.
> It is a mystery why the request mentions Lancashire and Shropshire
> only, with the line originating specifically in Leyland, but the chart
> Question: In a situation where two brothers obtained the grant/recognition
> of arms, would both have received identical sets of documents, whatever
> their form? The one sent to Bilbao seems quite expensive (but I have no
> idea how much it would have cost in those times, including the investigation
> at various places), but George was the older sibling.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 10, 2021, 12:47:25 PM6/10/21
to
It have looking for the Hixons (and the many variants), but so far none has come up with the arms shown in the document, and rounding up all of them seems a very tall task, unless they show in a visitation or in a lawsuit involving Cuerton.
As for the Lowe, there are several families, and at least two were from Staffordshire. One of them leads to Margaret Bromley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Bromley
There seems to be the same line that was related to the Bagot family. It appears that it comes from one Humphrey Lowe, with properties near Halesowen, which was originally in Shropshire. The source is COLLECTIONS FOR A HISTORY OF STAFFORDSHIRE EDITED BY PART II. VOLUME V. 1884 visible through Google books, in a section describing the burials of the Bagot family.
However the one mentioned with George Cuerton in the Cuerton tree might be a totally different line, and it might be different from the one in documents you found. I guess finding the arms for each of these ones might help determining which one is related (if any) to George Cuerton's wife.
I think I have several months of research ahead.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 1:51:03 PM6/10/21
to
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. It is he same arms the first Cuerton of his had.
> Who got them and when we will probably never know. It may have happened
> in the late 13th century.
No, not exactly the same arms. The arms shown include a bordure engrailed gabony around a bend-sinisterwise-divided field with a griffin (perhaps differently tinctured along the field division line). This strikes me as way too complex to be a de novo 13th century shield. It looks like it has been differenced from simpler original arms at least once and maybe as many as four or five times. Looking at other Cuerton coats would help - do they all have an engrailed bordure, a gabony bordure, let alone both? do they all have a bordure at all? do they all have a divided field or was it originally a monochrome field later divided to difference it? Are there any local families that have similar arms, such that any differencing might be within a feudal cluster of related arms? Anyhow, I suspect these specific arms represent the specific branch and not the whole lineage.
> Thanks for the clarification. It is he same arms the first Cuerton of his had.
> Who got them and when we will probably never know. It may have happened
> in the late 13th century.
I don't know enough about the history of these developments to know when gabony bordures first came into usage - the earliest I know of are from the mid-14th century. That might give some indication of the earliest that difference could have arisen.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 10, 2021, 5:37:10 PM6/10/21
to
The earlier visitation of Lancashire shows a Kuerden family taking it back a few generations into the late 1400s but it doesn't show the arms, or at least they are not in the published copy of the visitation. It has the same figure, split diagonally into two sections, with no bordure and with the same colors.
I am yet to come across any Cuerton or Cuerden families with coats of arms other than John Cuerton's and the one in the visitations of Lancashire to compare.
The arms of he Cuerden are described at
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol6/pp23-29
but the site doesn't specify the earliest source for them.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 10, 2021, 8:25:33 PM6/10/21
to
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 2:37:10 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Yes. The Cuerton arms seem a bit complex to be too early, but if they were not new in the sense that nobody else had them before John Cuerton, then i guess it would make sense that the king of arms came up with them in the 1550s, based on the theory that John's line of Cuertons came from a junior line of the Kuerden of Cuerden family in Lancashire like John appears to imply.
This is not what I was suggesting. That Harvey showed the same shield borne by William Cuerton at the start of the pedigree tells me he didn't just come up with it all in the 1550s for John. All I was saying is that is was probably not birthed in its final form, but rather as, say, a griffin on a bi-coloured shield, that at a later date was differenced by having a bordure added, becoming engrailed, and becoming gabony, finally building the full arms of John's family by the time of William. These latter steps could have been sequential, or more thjan one could have come at once, for example younger son 2 could have added a mono-coloured bordure, and son 3 a bordure of the same colour engrailed, or similarly, son 2 could have added a bordure of one colour, son 3 of a second, and son 4 gabony of those two colours. What I don't see happening is someone starting with a coat without a bordure and adding to it a bordure engrailed gabony - it seems unnecessarily complex to be a single difference, so I am thinking this line is at least two younger sons removed from the senior line, and maybe three.
> Yes. The Cuerton arms seem a bit complex to be too early, but if they were not new in the sense that nobody else had them before John Cuerton, then i guess it would make sense that the king of arms came up with them in the 1550s, based on the theory that John's line of Cuertons came from a junior line of the Kuerden of Cuerden family in Lancashire like John appears to imply.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 12, 2021, 11:21:50 PM6/12/21
to
The arms with a bicolored griffin appears to have been used by the Kuerden of Kuerden, but unfortunately, the recorded pedigree starts late in the 15th century.
Dr Kuerden appears to have put together a chart of himself for the Lancashire visitation, which attempts to connect him from his paternal line back to a much older Kuerden family that appears to have been settled at Preston since the time of Richard I, but which appears to have died out in the main line.
His proposed line is shown in the Visitation of 1664,
http://johnhoughton.me.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/1664-5_part2.pdf
on pages 167 and 168.
The line of Dr. Keurden's grandmother belongs to another Keurden family that is shown in the Visitation of 1567, but without the arms, on page 67 of the version published by the Chetham Society. But the first one in this line is one Richard Keurden, great-grandfather of the John Kewrden living in 1567 at the time of the visitation.
J Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 13, 2021, 12:50:12 AM6/13/21
to
Coming back to possible arms that may be similar, or very similar to some of the arms shown in Cuerton's chart, one of them resembles the arms of Simon Coykin, as shown in the modern copy of the Segar's Roll, with the original being from 1282, an online version can be found http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-057-108.html. Roland de Coykin is shown there
However, I have not being able to find any reference to a line of the Breton house of Coëtquen in Great Britain in the 14th and 15th centuries except for Roland, who may have settled somewhere in Devonshire.
He is mentioned in one document in Kew:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9686895
Reference: C 241/50/173
Description:
Debtor: Roger Crespyn, of Devon.
Creditor: Sir Roland de Coykin, knight.
Amount: £10.
Before whom: Roger Beyvyn, Mayor of Exeter; Walter de Langdon, Clerk.
When taken: 22/03/1306
First term: 03/05/1306
Last term: 03/05/1306
Writ to: Sheriff of Devon
Sent by: Roger Beyvyn, Mayor of Exeter; Walter de Langdon, Clerk.
Date: 1306 Oct 25
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: Latin
and . also in one inquisition post-morterm
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol4/pp200-211
in CORNWALL, at Liskeret, 3 Feb. 33 Edw. I.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 13, 2021, 10:12:19 AM6/13/21
to
Following on this very detailed analysis, it seems it claimed that there were one or two Stapleton marriages with one or two Burnell co-heiresses
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-19
Apparently the Burnell arms were "Argent, a lion rampant, sable, crowned, or"
but that page does not mention the lion being armed.
It is not clear what is the source of the Stapleton marriages, which appear to be questionable
Edward Burnell b: 1371 d. 23 Sep 1415 married Alianore [Eleanor] Strange, daughter of Sir John le Strange, 6th Lord Strange of Knockin and Maud Mohun, before 1395. Sir Edward Burnell predeceased his father, dying on 23 September 1415 at Siege of Harfleur, Harfleur, France; Died of flux. Edward Burnell's 3 children:
Joyce m: Thomas Erdington
Margery m: i) Edmund Hungerford ii) John Stapleton jnr?
Katherine m; i) John Ratcliffe ii) John Stapleton snr?
Coincidentally, John Cuerton had a servant named William, whose last name may have been Burnel, though i can't quite read the name correctly from the files on Cuerton's request for information made at Bilbao.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 13, 2021, 12:38:30 PM6/13/21
to
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:21:50 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Dr Kuerden appears to have put together a chart of himself for the Lancashire visitation,
> which attempts to connect him from his paternal line back to a much older Kuerden
> family that appears to have been settled at Preston since the time of Richard I, but which
> appears to have died out in the main line.
>
> His proposed line is shown in the Visitation of 1664,
>
> Dr Kuerden appears to have put together a chart of himself for the Lancashire visitation,
> which attempts to connect him from his paternal line back to a much older Kuerden
> family that appears to have been settled at Preston since the time of Richard I, but which
> appears to have died out in the main line.
>
> His proposed line is shown in the Visitation of 1664,
>
> The line of Dr. Keurden's grandmother belongs to another Keurden family that is shown
> in the Visitation of 1567, but without the arms, on page 67 of the version published by the
> Chetham Society. But the first one in this line is one Richard Keurden, great-grandfather
> of the John Kewrden living in 1567 at the time of the visitation.
Unfortunately, as discussed in VCH Lancs, it is the general consensus that the pedigree submitted by Dr. Kuerden was fraudulent. That means one can't trust any of its genealogy or heraldry as a authentic, and as such, it is hard to tell what to make of the coat given.
> in the Visitation of 1567, but without the arms, on page 67 of the version published by the
> Chetham Society. But the first one in this line is one Richard Keurden, great-grandfather
> of the John Kewrden living in 1567 at the time of the visitation.
taf
taf
Jun 13, 2021, 1:24:44 PM6/13/21
to
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 9:50:12 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Coming back to possible arms that may be similar, or very similar to some
> of the arms shown in Cuerton's chart, one of them resembles the arms of
> Simon Coykin, as shown in the modern copy of the Segar's Roll, with the
> original being from 1282, an online version can be found
> http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-057-108.html. Roland de Coykin is shown there
>
> However, I have not being able to find any reference to a line of the Breton
> house of Coëtquen in Great Britain in the 14th and 15th centuries except
> for Roland, who may have settled somewhere in Devonshire.
DBA lists the following:
> Coming back to possible arms that may be similar, or very similar to some
> of the arms shown in Cuerton's chart, one of them resembles the arms of
> Simon Coykin, as shown in the modern copy of the Segar's Roll, with the
> original being from 1282, an online version can be found
> http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-057-108.html. Roland de Coykin is shown there
>
> However, I have not being able to find any reference to a line of the Breton
> house of Coëtquen in Great Britain in the 14th and 15th centuries except
> for Roland, who may have settled somewhere in Devonshire.
erm 3 bends gu (this is exactly what appears in the Cuerton pedigree): Quenkyn
bendy of 6, gu & erm: Sir Renaud Coykin; Sir Raol Queikin
bendy of 6, erm & gu: Cokyn (Dev & Corn); Koykyn
I have to think these are all representations of the same family.
Here is the thing, though: I don't think this is the surname the pedigree gives the family (for example, all of these variants above have a 'k' in the middle and most have a 'y': the writing on the pedigree has no such letters going above or below). It was not unheard of for obscure families from different parts of the country to have coincidentally adopted the same arms. My gut says this prospective Coykin connection is a bum lead.
taf
taf
Jun 13, 2021, 1:49:26 PM6/13/21
to
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 7:12:19 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Following on this very detailed analysis, it seems it claimed that there were
> one or two Stapleton marriages with one or two Burnell co-heiresses
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-19
> Apparently the Burnell arms were "Argent, a lion rampant, sable, crowned, or"
DBA lists four families having Arg, a lion rampant sa, crowned or:
> Following on this very detailed analysis, it seems it claimed that there were
> one or two Stapleton marriages with one or two Burnell co-heiresses
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burnell-19
> Apparently the Burnell arms were "Argent, a lion rampant, sable, crowned, or"
Burnell (10 entries)
Foliott (1 entry)
Morley/Morle/Morlay/Morlee (38 entries)
Yorke (1 entry)
If one dismisses the crown as a mistaken addition, there are a bunch more, including Stapleton.
> It is not clear what is the source of the Stapleton marriages, which appear to
> be questionable
taf
taf
Jun 13, 2021, 2:40:41 PM6/13/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 9:39:28 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> [snip]
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
I have some corrections here. The arms shown in the pedigree appears different than the arms on the other page of the document. This is apparently due to the use of different paints, which aged differently. On the other page, the Cuerton arms are more like what one would expect, per bend or and azure, a griffin countercharged within a border engrailed gabony argent and sable.
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> [snip]
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
The arms on this page, which quarter Cuerton with the quarterly sword and 2-headed eagle, is itself differenced with a crescent or. At first, one might want to attribute this to the Bilbao trader himself being a second son, yet in the shield on the right, representing his father and mother, the crescent is also there. Unless this is a straight-out error, it suggests that either Alexander or John (the father) was himself a younger son.
Also from the arms in the right margin, there is a notable difference in the wife's arms. These in the pedigree these show a fess checky between 6 billets, but as displayed on this earlier page, it shows a fess checky between 7 billets. This variation indicates that the intended blazon is gu billetty arg, a fess checky or and azon a billetty shield. This doesn't change anything - it is still de la Lee, which doesn't match the surname given.
taf
taf
Jun 13, 2021, 4:41:33 PM6/13/21
to
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 11:40:41 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> This variation indicates that the intended blazon is gu billetty arg, a fess
> checky or and azon a billetty shield.
Sorry, somehow got two different sentences spliced together. The blazon would be:
> This variation indicates that the intended blazon is gu billetty arg, a fess
> checky or and azon a billetty shield.
gules billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure
J. Sardina
Jun 13, 2021, 10:59:44 PM6/13/21
to
Thanks for your detailed analysis. I will continue looking through the three counties of interest, Lancashire, Shropshire, Staffordshire and Cheshire for possible matches for these families. I am having trouble explaining how another family in one of those counties could have used arms so similar to the de la Lee in the 15th century or late 14th century.
The connection to Chester is still a mystery. It must have been not far away since the undated exemplification of arms mentions specifically searching at Chester for records, though the Cuerton family doesn't appear to have resided there. So far I haven't found any references to them in the guilds, and no entries in the visitations.
I wonder if a de La Lee co-heiress could have married a man below her rank with no arms, or that a second son of a de La Lee heiress co started using the de ls Lee arms instead of the paternal arms, but keeping his father's surname? Would those two cases had been allowed in that time period?
I am curious what type of inks were use in the 1500s. It seems a bit odd that several coats of arms of the chart lots quite a bit of ink while the other ones survived until our times. I am wondering how many of these documents have survived at all.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 14, 2021, 12:19:11 AM6/14/21
to
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 7:59:44 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> I wonder if a de La Lee co-heiress could have married a man below her
> rank with no arms, or that a second son of a de La Lee heiress co started
> using the de ls Lee arms instead of the paternal arms, but keeping his
> father's surname? Would those two cases had been allowed in that time
> period?
It needn't even have been a second son. There are examples of the sons who inherited substantial lands from an heiress who opted to adopt their mothers' arms. Keep in mind that many of the 'rules of heraldry' are anachronistic attempts to impose order retrospectively on something that was not so formalized. They were really just norms. In the 1500s, things were beginning to be formalized, but were not there yet, so yes, these things could happen, particularly when in this case it would have been several generations earlier.
> I wonder if a de La Lee co-heiress could have married a man below her
> rank with no arms, or that a second son of a de La Lee heiress co started
> using the de ls Lee arms instead of the paternal arms, but keeping his
> father's surname? Would those two cases had been allowed in that time
> period?
> I am curious what type of inks were use in the 1500s. It seems a bit odd
> that several coats of arms of the chart lots quite a bit of ink while the
> other ones survived until our times.
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 21, 2021, 9:21:44 AM6/21/21
to
Against odds, the seller of the document has agreed to provide a better resolution copy of the genealogical tree and arms of the set of documents in question. I am still need to double check what happened with this document, and certification, since apparently they were not enough for the Bilbao authorities to grant John Cuerton residency and recognition as hidalgo, and he did have to travel to Valladolid and present his case. There seems to have been an investigation, to be completed and presented within one year and one day in 1558-9, and apparently as part of it, an investigation had to be done at Chester archives where, again, apparently, at least part of the required information was gathered. However, the resulting set of documents that would have normally been sent to Bilbao for translation and legalization has been lost or misplaced, or perhaps it is still buried in some family archive nearly five centuries later, unlike the certification itself.
The better resolution picture does allow to see some details, though the ink appears to be somewhat faded and the traces themselves appear to be rather wide, which makes it more difficult to read some of the names.
The maternal line appears to be more developed than the paternal. It starts with William Sanford, armiger, married to Alicia, daughter of Radulph, and i would say Brereton, but it seems to be missing the second e and one extra letter if i am not mistaken. So it appears to say Brierton, which hopefully it is good enough. He is denominated miles, not armiger, which I don't know if it is a mistake. They are shown as parent of Jocosa. And here is where it gets difficult, because the husband is John'is , armiger, but the last name I still can't quite make out. but seems to be Hikson. As far as i know, no such family has been identified in the visitations, but the arms seem quite a combination of quarters.
They were the parents of Elena, daughter of Joh'is Hikson, who married one John Cuerton. After his name, it appears to say De yffeto m comitatu Salopie, armiger. They were the parents of Georgius & John Cuerton.
He is shown as the son of Alexandre Curton de Darlaton, armiger. There is no e in his name. His wife appears to be Matilia, daughter of Thome _aine, who is not shown as armiger or miles, but apparently had arms. Alexandre is shown as son of Wil'ms Cuerton de Darlaton, armiger, and his wife, Agneta, daughter of Joh'is De..and i definitely can't understand that name, _ydthem said to be "miles."
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 21, 2021, 10:23:17 AM6/21/21
to
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 12:39:28 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> [snip]
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:41:53 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:26:27 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > His arms are 'per chevron, sable & ermine, two boars heads argent in chief'. This
> > > is Sandford as you have identified it. Her arms are Arg, 2 bars sable, which are
> > > mostly attributed to Brereton. It is a bit like reading tea leaves, but it could say
> > > 'Alicia filia Radulphus Brereton miles'.
> [snip]
> > The arms under the Sandford-Brereton couple show alternating bands, but the colors
> > seem to have faded completely. It may have been azure and or. But it might have been
> > azur and silver.
> These are the arms I described as Argent 2 bars sable - silver with two black bars rather than true alternating bands (barry), i.e. Brereton.
>
> The shields are as follows, as I see them (alternative interpretations appreciated):
> 1. top center, the arms of the primary person, consisting of Arms A quartering Arms B, along with helm and crest
> 2. 2nd row left, Arms A impaling Arms B
> 3. 2nd row right, Arms C impaling Arms D
> 4. 3rd row left, Arms A quartering Arms B, impaling Arms E
> 5. 3rd row right, Arms F impaling Arms C
> 6. 4th row center, Arms A quartering B, impaling Arms F
> 7. 5th row left, Arms A quartering B impaling Arms G
> 8. 5th row right, Arms A quartering B impaling blank
>
> A. The arms are quarterly, per bend sinister gules and azure, within a bordure engrailed gabony argent and sable, a griffin or - This is based on the original Cuerton arms but appears to have multiple differences (the bordure itself seems to have been differenced twice)
> B. Quarterly 1 & 4, azure, a saracen sword (?) argent, hilted or; 2 & 3, gules, within a bordure argent a double-headed eagle displayed of the same.
> C. Per chevron sable and argent, in chief two boar's heads of the first - Sandford (? Sondford)
> D. Argent, 2 bars sable - (? Brereton)
> E. Ermine, 3 bends gules (I already discussed this - similar arms bendy of 6 links to Queikin/Coykin)
> F. Quarterly, 1 & 4, gules, a fess chequy azure between 6 billets argent and or; 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or; 3 argent a cross fleury able, on a canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or - the second of these appears in Dict Brit Arms attributed to several families, but most listed is Stapleton, the last of these is Peshale/Peshall/Pearsall. An alternative rendering of the first would be gules, billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure, which is attributed to de la Lee, but I am not convinced that could be the surname given these people by the pedigree. Nonetheless, [de la] Lee in the Shropshire 1623 visitation (a fess componee or and azure between 8 billets arg - but again, 8 billets could just be a representation of billetty) is quartering this specific variant of Peshall.
> G. vert, a wolf's head argent erased
>
> Based on the layout and the description in the earlier thread that they were gentry to the [generation of the] great-grandparent, it looks to me like the entire pedigree is shown except for the bottom tips of the bottom shields. It begins with William Cuerton, gent {Arms A}, who married an heiress, Agatha de [ ], daughter of Sir John de [ ]{B}. His son Alexander (?) Cuerton married [ ], daughter of Thomas [ ]{E}, and their son was John Cuerton of Ytfeld (i.e. Ightfield) in the county of [Shropshire], gent, who married Ellen [(de la Lee???)], daughter of John [ ] {F (claiming heirship to two other families including Peshall)} by the daughter of William Sandford, gent {C}, and Alice Brereton, daughter of Sir Ralph Brereton {D}. John and Ellen then had two sons, heir George Cuerton, who married Agnes Poe(or /Loe), daughter of Humphrey Poe(/Loe) {G} and younger son John Cuerton, at the time unmarried, who would be the Bilbao merchant.
>
> taf
Greetings,
> C. Per chevron sable and argent, in chief two boar's heads of the first - Sandford (? Sondford)
> D. Argent, 2 bars sable - (? Brereton)
> E. Ermine, 3 bends gules (I already discussed this - similar arms bendy of 6 links to Queikin/Coykin)
> F. Quarterly, 1 & 4, gules, a fess chequy azure between 6 billets argent and or; 2 argent a lion sable (rampant armed gules) crowned or; 3 argent a cross fleury able, on a canton gules a lions head erased argent crowned or - the second of these appears in Dict Brit Arms attributed to several families, but most listed is Stapleton, the last of these is Peshale/Peshall/Pearsall. An alternative rendering of the first would be gules, billetty argent, a fess checky or and azure, which is attributed to de la Lee, but I am not convinced that could be the surname given these people by the pedigree. Nonetheless, [de la] Lee in the Shropshire 1623 visitation (a fess componee or and azure between 8 billets arg - but again, 8 billets could just be a representation of billetty) is quartering this specific variant of Peshall.
> G. vert, a wolf's head argent erased
>
> Based on the layout and the description in the earlier thread that they were gentry to the [generation of the] great-grandparent, it looks to me like the entire pedigree is shown except for the bottom tips of the bottom shields. It begins with William Cuerton, gent {Arms A}, who married an heiress, Agatha de [ ], daughter of Sir John de [ ]{B}. His son Alexander (?) Cuerton married [ ], daughter of Thomas [ ]{E}, and their son was John Cuerton of Ytfeld (i.e. Ightfield) in the county of [Shropshire], gent, who married Ellen [(de la Lee???)], daughter of John [ ] {F (claiming heirship to two other families including Peshall)} by the daughter of William Sandford, gent {C}, and Alice Brereton, daughter of Sir Ralph Brereton {D}. John and Ellen then had two sons, heir George Cuerton, who married Agnes Poe(or /Loe), daughter of Humphrey Poe(/Loe) {G} and younger son John Cuerton, at the time unmarried, who would be the Bilbao merchant.
>
> taf
Thanks again for the study. It is possible that the better image of the arms I received today may through some more light on the topic.
It seems almost clear that the Helen's surname was Hickson, and that she was a daughter of one Joh'is Ickson, or Icson, esq. Apparently the H was sometimes written and sometimes not. John Icson may have been from Ightfield as well.
Interestingly, the rector of Ightfield that appears with the Sondefords, was one William Hicson. Thanks for bringing up this document to my attention. I am wondering if this William Sondeford was the same William shown as husband of Alicia Bereston, daughter of Radulph Brereston, and father of Jocosa, who is shown as Helen's mother.
https://www.shropshirearchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/CCA_X465_1_1_3_1_30
Place: Shropshire Archives System Reference: X465/1/1/3/1/30 Document Reference: 465/30 Date: 17 June 1455 Level: file Description: Tuesday before the feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist 33 Henry VI at the Lee. By Thomas son of Nicholas Sondeford to William Parker vicar of Prys, William Hicson, rector of Ightfeld, and William Sondeford son of Gruffin Sondeford, of all lands and tenements which he has in the Lee, with appurtenances. To have and to hold by above parties and their heirs and assigns, rendering due service to the lord of the fee. Warranted against all people. Witnesses: William Maynewaryng, William Colclogh, Hugh Peesall, Ralph Coton, John Huwet and others. 1 red seal. Docketed: Thomas Sandford son of Nicholas Sandford Lea 33 H,6, 15 June 1454. Held At: Shropshire Archives
I see that the same document mentions one High Peesall, which I guess may have been an unidentified Peshall. Somehow the arms of the John Hickson ended up including a quarter that seems to come from the Peshalls, and another one that perhaps comes from a branch of the Lees.
J. Sardina
taf
Jun 21, 2021, 11:45:15 AM6/21/21
to
On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 7:23:17 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> Thanks again for the study. It is possible that the better image of the arms I received today may through some more light on the topic.
> It seems almost clear that the Helen's surname was Hickson, and that she was a daughter of one Joh'is Ickson, or Icson, esq. Apparently the H was sometimes written and sometimes not. John Icson may have been from Ightfield as well.
>
Hmm, interesting. Any light on the paternal marriage surnames?
> Thanks again for the study. It is possible that the better image of the arms I received today may through some more light on the topic.
> It seems almost clear that the Helen's surname was Hickson, and that she was a daughter of one Joh'is Ickson, or Icson, esq. Apparently the H was sometimes written and sometimes not. John Icson may have been from Ightfield as well.
>
taf
J. Sardina
Jun 21, 2021, 2:02:01 PM6/21/21
to
On the Cuerton side, despite enhancing the picture which is much better than the original i still can't not make out the names.
I wonder if part of the problem is that the person that drew the names and the arms may have been copying from a set of documents and was not entirely familiar with the names, or that part of the names were not clear enough. I see that Cuerton was once written with no e. I guess Darlaston was meant when Darlaton was written, and it seems some of the letters s and t were very similar. The h's and k's (if there are k's) also look very similar, and the D's and T's. In one case at least the name of the person was written, and we can see the arms below for his daughter, but the space where miles or armiger (or I guess yeoman) would have been written, was left out. The surname of Alexander's wife seems to be _aine or _uine or something similar. The first letter is still not quite legible, at least as far i can telll, and i don't recognize the name. The name of Alexander's mother appears clear, but her surname is not. Her father is described as Joh'is, milites (if i am not mistaken), but the name between Joh'is and milites occupy two lines and i am not sure if there was not enough space to continue it on the first line. So what i see is De ,Be Dei or Bei with the next line starting a bit blurry with a few letters and ending in the tkem or dthem. I can't tell what is is between Beiygdthem? De iydtkem? If it is two words then the second one seems to start with lowercase.
The closest names I can find are Beysam or Bethsham, but that would have in the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem, which doesn't make any sense.
Whoever he was, knight or esquire, his arms were the ones that appear to be the double eagle in two quarters and apparently Sarracen sword in the other two. I guess he might have been at Staffordshire in the mid 15th century based on the location being Darlaston.
I think I would need to share the picture file to see if better software can make the writing clearer.
At least the maternal surname is Hicson (and similar variations) and can be found at Ightfield in relation with the Sonderford.
Also, the wife of William Sandford appears to be the daughter of Ranulph Brereston, knight. Too bad there are no dates nor places in the document, as there appear to have been multiple Williams and Ranulfs.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 22, 2021, 11:13:49 AM6/22/21
to
On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 11:45:15 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
For some reason the names on the right and lower part of the chart are clearer than the ones on the left upper side, though the coat of arms drawn in the left side fared better in terms of keeping their colors.
One thing i am trying to track done is Dr. Cureton's research results.
Unfortunately, he lived in the last century before internet was widely available and though the set up to track the lines and origin for the Curetons of Shropshire, it seems he did not quite find a definite answer.
From the various articles he published, it appears that he thought the Curetons had a common origin in Lancashire with the Cuertons, in the 14th century, which may or may not be true.
In the process of his research, he noticed the Cuertons, and in particular he does mention the coat of arms for the first Cuerton of John's line on the female side, though he doesn't specify that.
I have not been able to see exactly where he saw it.
It don't think it would have been from this certification of arms because there seems to have been no publicly available copy since at least the 1700s (the arms and family are missing from the corresponding copy).
Perhaps there is a copy at the College of Arms hat he managed to consult.
In any case, he theorized that the owner of the coat of arms had come to England during the One Hundred Year's War and somehow became related to the Cuerden line from Lancashire, before the split into Shropshire and Lancashire lines.
I am trying to get a copy of the corresponding article, which if I am not mistaken is from a "Southern Families."
Unfortunately, the software would not let me save a copy in PDF of the corresponding page, only an image, and not even complete at that.
Until soon,
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 22, 2021, 10:34:00 PM6/22/21
to
Book of Entries ... The second Edition carefully Corrected. Lat. B.L.
Ff. 713. Printed by John Streater, etc.; and are to be sold by George Sawbridge, etc.: London, 1671
(OCoLC)558017610
He appears on page 293, and if I am not mistaken, the entry corresponds to the 35th year of the reign of queen Elizabeth I.
J. Sardina
J. Sardina
Jun 24, 2021, 5:51:46 AM6/24/21
to
Following up on previous messages, the wording of the certification of arms, or at least of the manuscript copy from Chester, mentions that John Cuerton was descendant from nobles on the maternal and paternal sides. On the mother's side that may refer to the Sandford and Bereston families, but from the father's side it is more difficult to understand. The first one of his line seem to a esquire, William. Apparently, based on the arms described, that line came from a family from Lancashire, which can not be traced in the 14th and 15th centuries with certainty. The wife of William is shown as being a daughter of one John De [], knight. The surname is difficult to read in the images available from the owner of the certificate of arms. However, it seems to be Mal_am or Mal_em. The letter in the middle seems to be a k or h. That would make the knight William of Malbam or Malham. The last letter appears to be m.
Based on dates for John Cuerton of Bilbao, this William would have lived in the first half of the 15th century. The arms for this gentleman are drawn on the certificate, but have not been verified or matched to a known family.
Unfortunately, no place names are given, but if the investigation for the certificate was done at Chester, I am guessing that this family was from Cheshire, or perhaps a neighboring area of Lancashire.
J. Sardina
It is loading more messages.
0 new messages