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deCOURTNEY

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ED MANN

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98

UTZ wrote:

> In a message dated 5/5/98 5:56:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM writes:
>
> >
> > 1 Emperor of the West Charlemagne 747 - 813/14 ref #: Ä50-13
> > +Himiltrude Abt. 742 -
> > 2 Aupais Abt. 738 - ref #: (Ä191-14)
> > +Count Begue de Paris Abt. 738 - 816 ref #: Ä191-14
>
> Sorry to nit pick but how can this be so. We have both Aupais and her husband
> b. before Charlemagne and his wife.

Hmm. They do it with mirrors; they make up for it by volume; the
check's in the mail . . .

Delete the birth dates for both - Weis doesn't list any. Delete also
Aupais' death date.

--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com

References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.

Richard Borthwick

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May 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/7/98

>X-Sender: rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
>Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:40:37 +0800
>To: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cyllene.uwa.edu.au
id OAA08002

Alpais (b.ca.794 d.after 852 m.ca.806) wife of count Bego (b.ca.755/60
d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais witnesses
as daughter of Louis the Pious [Sources: K F Werner "Nachkommen Karls des
Grossen" in Braunfels (ed) *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben* cf
Hlawitschka's critique of Werner's account in *Anfaenge de Hauses
Habsburg-Lothringen* pp.165-169.]. Below is a sketch of Hlawitschka's
reconstruction. The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that
Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by
Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by
the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was
Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the
marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would
have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious). The
broken horizontal line indicates highly probable siblinghood and the dotted
verticals indicate highly probable filiation. I hope the table holds up
under transmission (it is my first effort at such a table)!

seej...@home.com

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May 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/7/98

>Richard Borthwick wrote:
>
> Alpais (b.ca.794 d.after 852 m.ca.806) wife of count Bego (b.ca.755/60
> d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
> unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais >witnesses as daughter of Louis the Pious

snip

Here's what I have on them:

Descendants of Gerhard

First Generation

1. Gerhard.
Gerhard married (1) Rotrud.
They had the following children:
2 M i. Beggen (Bego) , Count of Paris was born about 755/760 in Paris,
Seine, France. He died 816.
Beggen married (1) Alpaide (Alpais) ,Princess of the Holy Roman Empir,
daughter of Louis I "the Pious" , King of France and Ermengarde
(Irmengarde) de Hesbaye [Empress] about 806. Alpaide was born about 794
in France. She died after 852.

Carol; aka seej...@home.com

Alan B. Wilson

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May 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/7/98

In article <1.5.4.32.1998050...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>,
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:

> >X-Sender: rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
> >Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:40:37 +0800
> >To: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> >From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> >Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
> >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cyllene.uwa.edu.au
> id OAA08002
> >
> >At 18:44 6/05/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >>UTZ wrote:

> >>=20

> >>> In a message dated 5/5/98 5:56:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >>> EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM writes:

> >>>=20

> >>> >
> >>> > 1 Emperor of the West Charlemagne 747 - 813/14 ref #:

> =C450-13
> >>> > +Himiltrude Abt. 742 -
> >>> > 2 Aupais Abt. 738 - ref #: (=C4191-14)
> >>> > +Count Begue de Paris Abt. 738 - 816 ref #: =C4191-14
> >>>=20

> >>> Sorry to nit pick but how can this be so. We have both Aupais and her
> >husband
> >>> b. before Charlemagne and his wife.
> >>
> >>Hmm. They do it with mirrors; they make up for it by volume; the

> >>check's in the mail . . .=20

> >>
> >>Delete the birth dates for both - Weis doesn't list any. Delete also
> >>Aupais' death date.
> >>

> >>--=20

> >>FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
> >>
> >>Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
> >>
> >>References:

> >> =C4 =3D Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
> >> AAP =3D Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or=20
> >> [Pres. # : page].
> >> BP1 =3D _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
> >> BPci =3D _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
> >> BRF =3D Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
> >> BxP =3D _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
> >> EC1 =3D Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].=20
> >> EC2 =3D Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
> >> [page].=20
> >> EC3 =3D Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,=20
> >> [page].=20
> >> F =3D Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
> >> S =3D Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.
> >> W =3D Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.

> >>
> >>
> Alpais (b.ca.794 d.after 852 m.ca.806) wife of count Bego (b.ca.755/60
> d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
> unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais witnesses
> as daughter of Louis the Pious [Sources: K F Werner "Nachkommen Karls des
> Grossen" in Braunfels (ed) *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben* cf
> Hlawitschka's critique of Werner's account in *Anfaenge de Hauses
> Habsburg-Lothringen* pp.165-169.]. Below is a sketch of Hlawitschka's
> reconstruction. The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that
> Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by
> Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by
> the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was
> Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the
> marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would
> have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious). The
> broken horizontal line indicates highly probable siblinghood and the dotted
> verticals indicate highly probable filiation. I hope the table holds up
> under transmission (it is my first effort at such a table)!
>
> Louis the Pious # NN Gerhard
> | oo Rotrud
> | :
> | _:_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> Alpais (2)oo Bego oo(1) NN Leuthard oo
> | : Grimhild

> | : : =20

> ______________________| _____:_ :
> Leuthard Eberhard Susanna oo Wulfhard I Ingeltrude
> | oo Odo
> | |
> __________________________________________|__________ |
> Wulfhard II NN Immo Hildeburg Adalhard Vulgrin Ermentrud

> | | oo Charles II=
> =20
> | | "the Bald"
> | | | =
> =20

> | __________|___________ |
> Vulgrin Wulfhard III Adelheid oo Louis II "the
> Stammerer"

Moriarty, p. 23, comments: "She [Alpais] is often called a natural
daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pious but other authorities style her a
natural daughter of Charlemagne, which is undoubtedly, for chronological
reasons, correct."

Settipani in "La prehistoire des Capetiens," p. 200, lists Alpais as
daughter if Charlemagne and Himiltrude. (See also Table 5 at the end of
the book.) He estimates Alpais was born ca 765-770; she died in 852,
after 23 Jul.

On page 316, note 857, Settipani reviews the differences between
Werner and Hlawitschka, and concludes that Adelaide, wife of Louis II,
descends from Beggo and Alpais. I reconstruct the relationships as
follows:

While there are differing numbers of generations in the lines, they
do not seem implausible. I have:
Charlemagne (747-814)
Louis I (778-840)
Charles II (823-877)
Louis II (846-879) {3 generations in 99 years}
Alpais (765/770-852)
Ermentrud (830-869) {3 generations in 60-65 years}
Adelaide (855-aft 900) {3 generations in 85-90 years}

Note that I have Leuthard, who is listed as both a brother and as a
son of Beggo by Borthwick, as the same individual.

--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu

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