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Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne
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Jason Quick
May 13, 2016, 2:18:00 PM5/13/16
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Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne
Ralph the Large de Gahard and his Son Main d’Aubigne were the lords of Aubigne, which included a cluster of towns and mound fortifications centered around the Breton village of Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné. The other villages included; Chauvigné, Gahard, Saint-Médard-sur-Ille, Saint-Germain and Montreuil-sur-Ille all located between Rennes and Vitré. In Chauvigné, the Lord’s Aubigne held land in fee to the Lords of Fougères (Ferns), and probably shared a close relationship with them through a matrimonial marriage do to similar naming patterns.(a)
The first mention of Ralph the Large is c. 1040 in a charter chronicling the donation of Borne wood to the monks of of Gahard. (b) Ralph was a probable participant in the Invasion of Britain with Duke William in 1066 attached to the Breton calvary and received lands around Raynham in Norfolk after the conquest. (c)(d) By 1206 Ralph had lost his English holdings because he most likely was caught up in the Breton revolt of Ralph Gael in 1075. KSB Keats-Rohan, mentions that Ralph the Large was a follower of Ralph of Gael and was associated with Eudo fitz Clamarhoc and Wihenoc, son of Goranton(e). Ralph according to B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6 had eight sons other than Main. “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. annuentibus, Maino, Jvano, Guill * Steph * Alfr * Rotb * Herv *Juhali * Herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. &c”(f) . There is also a bastard son Albert mentioned in the previously mentioned charter to the Monks of Gahard, “Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi.(b). Evan, Ralphs’s second son was in charge of restoring the Monastary of St Melanie and later became the Archbishop of Dol in 1081.(g)
Main d’Aubigne, Ralphs eldest son, seems to have inherited his father’s lands in Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné, Chauvigné and Saint-Germain and has also carried the surname of Saint-Germain. In a charter giving lands in Chauvigné to the Monks of Mont-St-Michel c. 1100 the names in no particular order, “Maini de Sancto Germano”, his son Robert, in absentia (signed by Main himself) for his son Ralph, and Main’s wife Adelesia (Bohun).(h) Ralph, Main’s eldest son, possibly by a different marriage, carried on the Breton line of Aubigny (i) and witnessed a charter with his Uncle Juhel in 1106.” “Radulfus de Albiniaco. Juhardus avunculus ejus.”(j). The Anglo-Breton line was carried out by Main’s son William (Brito), nephews; Ewen, Elias, and Geoffrey whose parentage is uncertain (could it be Robert?) can be traced from the charters of Belvoir Priory (k) and John Ravinous’s posts. (l)
Link to pedigrees
Pedigree of’Aubigny - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001
Pedigree 1 http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11270/img-5.png pg 179
Pedigree http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-2.png pg 266
Pedigree of Anglo-Breton Aubigne From John P Ravilious https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ
Keats-Rohan, mentions a clue that might shed some light on the ancestry of Ralph the Large. She mentions a Euen de Saint-Germain, who was probably an uncle to Main d’Aubigne (m) that is named in a charter involving the Monastery of St Martin in Erbreé (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) located in the French Archives(n). This charter loosely translated with help from accounts from Michel Brand'Honneur (o) and a separate text from the Abbey of Martimour (Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 Numéro 2168)(n) . There were three Soldiers; Norman, Frotgier, and Adam all sons of Tetbaud who were disputing Hervé the cannon of Tours of becoming a monk at the Monastery of Erbrée. One of the brothers became ill and while he was dying retracted his dispute with Hervé. Claritia, Adam’s aunt, wife of Eudon son of Almodius, protested and assaulted Hervé by hitting him on the head with a stick and in front of Rivallon the priest. The lord of the area, Andrew I of Vitre then imprisoned Clarice and called a council at the Hall of Dominus to settle the dispute with Hervé and all of Clarice’s relatives. They in turn had to claim that Herve could become a monk because Andrew needed to keep the peace because of violence and protest with the other monks. Clarice was henceforth whipped as a result of her insolence. Among the witnesses are Norman’s sons; Hamelin, Payen, Andrew, and his daughter ; and her Husband Ewen (Euen) Saint-Germain. Also in attendance are Frotgier’s sons Walter (Gualterio) and Botardo. Another online translation that was used that was translated by DuPaz (p).
If anyone would like to take a stab at translating further and or finding mistakes please do. The links are directly below.
Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf
Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/
B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 294-6 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom
And http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm
Pedigree of this Charter and Euen de St-Germain and possible Line of Raoul le Large - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-16.png pg 275
(a)Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001 pgs, 171,178-179,187,193,266 http://books.openedition.org/pur/11260 Translated from French
(b)Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France, Volume 10 edited by Martin Bouquet, Léopold Delisle pg 10 Bibloth. Nat. MSS Cartul. De Marmoutier, t. III p. 309. Donation of Raoul Le Large to the priory of Gahrad (1040-1066) “Radulfus cognomento Largus donat Sancto Exupcrio silvam Bornus, monachis qui in Gahardo commorantur. Signum ejus et Mainonis, Heweni et Guillelmi filiorum ejus. Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi. A la marge Signum comitis Conani Signum comitis Heudonis”
(c)http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/01770244 Cartulary Title: Feet of Fines for the County Norfolk 1198-1202 Date: 1200 “of all the land which Ralph Largus (Radulfus Larges)held in Reinham (Raynham)”
(d)Cartulary Title: Beauchamp Cartulary, 1100-1268 Date: 1206 http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00320367 “Richard Lowoghewall the children of the east, and toward the west, and in Stockholm, according to the verses of Cecilia Luyo and two acres of meadow and two acres and a half, meadow under the messuage of Richard son of Cecilia, at the meadow that belonged to Ralph Largus (Radulfi Largi)”
(e)Domesday People, The Bretons and the Norman Conquest, K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1999. Pg 44-45
(f)B. N. lat. 5441.3 pgs 295-296 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. Annuentibus filiis juis, Manio Ivano, Guill . Steph . Alfr . Rotb . herv . Juhali . herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. & c”
(g)Mondes de l'Ouest et villes du monde: Regards sur les sociétés médiévalesMélanges en l'honneur d'André Chédeville, Catherine Laurent, Bernard Merdrignac, Daniel Pichot 1998 pgs 314, 322-323
(h)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pgs 143-144 Carta de Albinneio c. 1100 ”NOTVM sit omnibus ueram sancte trinitatis fidem colentibus. Mainnum quendam nobilem uirum de Albinnei castro cum propria uxore quondam sancti Michaelis adisse limina. ac fratribus eiusdem sancte ecclesie sedule famulantibus quandam fecisse donationem de quadem maiteria ut uulgo dicitur. quam apud quandam uillam que Caluinnei dicitur habebat. pro salute sui uxorisque sue infantum quoque suorum ac omnium amicorum. et ut predicti fratres assidue sui in orationibus suis sint memores. Si quis huic dono calumpniam inferre presumpseritr sit maledictus cum Iuda traditore Domini. Vt autem hoc uerius credatur. ac per labentia tempora firmius teneatur. nomina eorum qui presentes adfuerunt cum signis uiuifice crucis que fecerunt subter notata sunt. [fol. 78v] Signum Maini [ + ] qui donum fecit. Signum uxoris eius Adelesie [ + ]. Signum Rotberti filii eius. Signum Frotgerii militis. Signum Torulfi. Signum Maini de Sancto Germano. Signum Ilgerii prepositi. Signum Guarini Ernaldi filii. Signum quod fecit Mainus [ + ] sub persona filii sui Radulfi qui absens erat et tamen hoc donum concessit.
(i)K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1995. Published MSHAB 74 (1996) 181-215 1 Le rôle des Bretons dans la politique de la colonisation normande d'Angleterre (c.1042-1135) pg 21 http://www.coelweb.co.uk/BRETSHAB.pdf
(j)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilane, 6 H 16 n° 7 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2817/ c. 1106 “Radulfus de Albiniaco, Juhardus avunculus ejus”.
(k)The Manuscripts of His Grace the Duke of Rutland: Letters and papers, 1440-1797 (v.3 mainly correspondence of the fourth Duke of Rutland). v.4. Charters, cartularies, &c. Letters and papers, supplementary. Extracts from household accounts John James Robert Manners Duke of Rutland, Richard Ward, Robert Campbell, John Horace Round H.M. Stationery Office, 1905 - Great Britain. Pgs, 98-174.
(l)John P. Ravilious, Tuesday, 15 December 2009 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ
(m)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pg 148. “ Main was a son of Ralph Largus of Gahard (Morice, Preuves, i, 408; Cartulaire de Saint-Aubin d'Angers, ii, no. 677, pp. 171-5; Arch. dépt. d'Ille-et- Vilaine, IF 529, Gahard III). His wife Adelaide was daughter of Humphrey de Bohun….Main de Saint-Germain was probably a nephew of the donor, one of whose many brothers was Euen de Saint-Germain (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6). [65}.”
(n)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/
(o)Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf
(p)Online link translated by “DuPaz” http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm
Ralph the Large de Gahard and his Son Main d’Aubigne were the lords of Aubigne, which included a cluster of towns and mound fortifications centered around the Breton village of Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné. The other villages included; Chauvigné, Gahard, Saint-Médard-sur-Ille, Saint-Germain and Montreuil-sur-Ille all located between Rennes and Vitré. In Chauvigné, the Lord’s Aubigne held land in fee to the Lords of Fougères (Ferns), and probably shared a close relationship with them through a matrimonial marriage do to similar naming patterns.(a)
The first mention of Ralph the Large is c. 1040 in a charter chronicling the donation of Borne wood to the monks of of Gahard. (b) Ralph was a probable participant in the Invasion of Britain with Duke William in 1066 attached to the Breton calvary and received lands around Raynham in Norfolk after the conquest. (c)(d) By 1206 Ralph had lost his English holdings because he most likely was caught up in the Breton revolt of Ralph Gael in 1075. KSB Keats-Rohan, mentions that Ralph the Large was a follower of Ralph of Gael and was associated with Eudo fitz Clamarhoc and Wihenoc, son of Goranton(e). Ralph according to B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6 had eight sons other than Main. “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. annuentibus, Maino, Jvano, Guill * Steph * Alfr * Rotb * Herv *Juhali * Herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. &c”(f) . There is also a bastard son Albert mentioned in the previously mentioned charter to the Monks of Gahard, “Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi.(b). Evan, Ralphs’s second son was in charge of restoring the Monastary of St Melanie and later became the Archbishop of Dol in 1081.(g)
Main d’Aubigne, Ralphs eldest son, seems to have inherited his father’s lands in Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné, Chauvigné and Saint-Germain and has also carried the surname of Saint-Germain. In a charter giving lands in Chauvigné to the Monks of Mont-St-Michel c. 1100 the names in no particular order, “Maini de Sancto Germano”, his son Robert, in absentia (signed by Main himself) for his son Ralph, and Main’s wife Adelesia (Bohun).(h) Ralph, Main’s eldest son, possibly by a different marriage, carried on the Breton line of Aubigny (i) and witnessed a charter with his Uncle Juhel in 1106.” “Radulfus de Albiniaco. Juhardus avunculus ejus.”(j). The Anglo-Breton line was carried out by Main’s son William (Brito), nephews; Ewen, Elias, and Geoffrey whose parentage is uncertain (could it be Robert?) can be traced from the charters of Belvoir Priory (k) and John Ravinous’s posts. (l)
Link to pedigrees
Pedigree of’Aubigny - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001
Pedigree 1 http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11270/img-5.png pg 179
Pedigree http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-2.png pg 266
Pedigree of Anglo-Breton Aubigne From John P Ravilious https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ
Keats-Rohan, mentions a clue that might shed some light on the ancestry of Ralph the Large. She mentions a Euen de Saint-Germain, who was probably an uncle to Main d’Aubigne (m) that is named in a charter involving the Monastery of St Martin in Erbreé (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) located in the French Archives(n). This charter loosely translated with help from accounts from Michel Brand'Honneur (o) and a separate text from the Abbey of Martimour (Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 Numéro 2168)(n) . There were three Soldiers; Norman, Frotgier, and Adam all sons of Tetbaud who were disputing Hervé the cannon of Tours of becoming a monk at the Monastery of Erbrée. One of the brothers became ill and while he was dying retracted his dispute with Hervé. Claritia, Adam’s aunt, wife of Eudon son of Almodius, protested and assaulted Hervé by hitting him on the head with a stick and in front of Rivallon the priest. The lord of the area, Andrew I of Vitre then imprisoned Clarice and called a council at the Hall of Dominus to settle the dispute with Hervé and all of Clarice’s relatives. They in turn had to claim that Herve could become a monk because Andrew needed to keep the peace because of violence and protest with the other monks. Clarice was henceforth whipped as a result of her insolence. Among the witnesses are Norman’s sons; Hamelin, Payen, Andrew, and his daughter ; and her Husband Ewen (Euen) Saint-Germain. Also in attendance are Frotgier’s sons Walter (Gualterio) and Botardo. Another online translation that was used that was translated by DuPaz (p).
If anyone would like to take a stab at translating further and or finding mistakes please do. The links are directly below.
Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf
Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/
B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 294-6 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom
And http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm
Pedigree of this Charter and Euen de St-Germain and possible Line of Raoul le Large - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-16.png pg 275
(a)Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001 pgs, 171,178-179,187,193,266 http://books.openedition.org/pur/11260 Translated from French
(b)Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France, Volume 10 edited by Martin Bouquet, Léopold Delisle pg 10 Bibloth. Nat. MSS Cartul. De Marmoutier, t. III p. 309. Donation of Raoul Le Large to the priory of Gahrad (1040-1066) “Radulfus cognomento Largus donat Sancto Exupcrio silvam Bornus, monachis qui in Gahardo commorantur. Signum ejus et Mainonis, Heweni et Guillelmi filiorum ejus. Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi. A la marge Signum comitis Conani Signum comitis Heudonis”
(c)http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/01770244 Cartulary Title: Feet of Fines for the County Norfolk 1198-1202 Date: 1200 “of all the land which Ralph Largus (Radulfus Larges)held in Reinham (Raynham)”
(d)Cartulary Title: Beauchamp Cartulary, 1100-1268 Date: 1206 http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00320367 “Richard Lowoghewall the children of the east, and toward the west, and in Stockholm, according to the verses of Cecilia Luyo and two acres of meadow and two acres and a half, meadow under the messuage of Richard son of Cecilia, at the meadow that belonged to Ralph Largus (Radulfi Largi)”
(e)Domesday People, The Bretons and the Norman Conquest, K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1999. Pg 44-45
(f)B. N. lat. 5441.3 pgs 295-296 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. Annuentibus filiis juis, Manio Ivano, Guill . Steph . Alfr . Rotb . herv . Juhali . herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. & c”
(g)Mondes de l'Ouest et villes du monde: Regards sur les sociétés médiévalesMélanges en l'honneur d'André Chédeville, Catherine Laurent, Bernard Merdrignac, Daniel Pichot 1998 pgs 314, 322-323
(h)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pgs 143-144 Carta de Albinneio c. 1100 ”NOTVM sit omnibus ueram sancte trinitatis fidem colentibus. Mainnum quendam nobilem uirum de Albinnei castro cum propria uxore quondam sancti Michaelis adisse limina. ac fratribus eiusdem sancte ecclesie sedule famulantibus quandam fecisse donationem de quadem maiteria ut uulgo dicitur. quam apud quandam uillam que Caluinnei dicitur habebat. pro salute sui uxorisque sue infantum quoque suorum ac omnium amicorum. et ut predicti fratres assidue sui in orationibus suis sint memores. Si quis huic dono calumpniam inferre presumpseritr sit maledictus cum Iuda traditore Domini. Vt autem hoc uerius credatur. ac per labentia tempora firmius teneatur. nomina eorum qui presentes adfuerunt cum signis uiuifice crucis que fecerunt subter notata sunt. [fol. 78v] Signum Maini [ + ] qui donum fecit. Signum uxoris eius Adelesie [ + ]. Signum Rotberti filii eius. Signum Frotgerii militis. Signum Torulfi. Signum Maini de Sancto Germano. Signum Ilgerii prepositi. Signum Guarini Ernaldi filii. Signum quod fecit Mainus [ + ] sub persona filii sui Radulfi qui absens erat et tamen hoc donum concessit.
(i)K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1995. Published MSHAB 74 (1996) 181-215 1 Le rôle des Bretons dans la politique de la colonisation normande d'Angleterre (c.1042-1135) pg 21 http://www.coelweb.co.uk/BRETSHAB.pdf
(j)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilane, 6 H 16 n° 7 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2817/ c. 1106 “Radulfus de Albiniaco, Juhardus avunculus ejus”.
(k)The Manuscripts of His Grace the Duke of Rutland: Letters and papers, 1440-1797 (v.3 mainly correspondence of the fourth Duke of Rutland). v.4. Charters, cartularies, &c. Letters and papers, supplementary. Extracts from household accounts John James Robert Manners Duke of Rutland, Richard Ward, Robert Campbell, John Horace Round H.M. Stationery Office, 1905 - Great Britain. Pgs, 98-174.
(l)John P. Ravilious, Tuesday, 15 December 2009 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ
(m)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pg 148. “ Main was a son of Ralph Largus of Gahard (Morice, Preuves, i, 408; Cartulaire de Saint-Aubin d'Angers, ii, no. 677, pp. 171-5; Arch. dépt. d'Ille-et- Vilaine, IF 529, Gahard III). His wife Adelaide was daughter of Humphrey de Bohun….Main de Saint-Germain was probably a nephew of the donor, one of whose many brothers was Euen de Saint-Germain (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6). [65}.”
(n)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/
(o)Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf
(p)Online link translated by “DuPaz” http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm
Peter Stewart via
May 13, 2016, 10:50:25 PM5/13/16
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 14/05/2016 4:17 AM, Jason Quick via wrote:
> Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne
>
> Ralph the Large de Gahard and his Son Main d’Aubigne were the lords of Aubigne, which included a cluster of towns and mound fortifications centered around the Breton village of Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné. The other villages included; Chauvigné, Gahard, Saint-Médard-sur-Ille, Saint-Germain and Montreuil-sur-Ille all located between Rennes and Vitré. In Chauvigné, the Lord’s Aubigne held land in fee to the Lords of Fougères (Ferns), and probably shared a close relationship with them through a matrimonial marriage do to similar naming patterns.(a)
>
> The first mention of Ralph the Large is c. 1040 in a charter chronicling the donation of Borne wood to the monks of of Gahard. (b)
"Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France, Volume 10 edited by
Martin Bouquet, Léopold Delisle pg 10" (that contains part of Radulf
Glaber's chronicle) but in the first part of 'Recueil d'actes inédits
des ducs et princes de Bretagne' edited by Arthur de la Borderie, p. 33,
see https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XqswAQAAIAAJ.
<snip>
> Keats-Rohan, mentions a clue that might shed some light on the ancestry of Ralph the Large. She mentions a Euen de Saint-Germain, who was probably an uncle to Main d’Aubigne (m) that is named in a charter involving the Monastery of St Martin in Erbreé (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) located in the French Archives(n). This charter loosely translated with help from accounts from Michel Brand'Honneur (o) and a separate text from the Abbey of Martimour (Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 Numéro 2168)(n) . There were three Soldiers; Norman, Frotgier, and Adam all sons of Tetbaud who were disputing Hervé the cannon of Tours of becoming a monk at the Monastery of Erbrée. One of the brothers became ill and while he was dying retracted his dispute with Hervé. Claritia, Adam’s aunt, wife of Eudon son of Almodius, protested and assaulted Hervé by hitting him on the head with a stick and in front of Rivallon the priest. The lord of the area, Andrew I of Vitre then imprisoned Clarice and called a council at the Hall of Dominus to settle the dispute with Hervé and all of Clarice’s relatives. They in turn had to claim that Herve could become a monk because Andrew needed to keep the peace because of violence and protest with the other monks. Clarice was henceforth whipped as a result of her insolence. Among the witnesses are Norman’s sons; Hamelin, Payen, Andrew, and his daughter ; and her Husband Ewen (Euen) Saint-Germain. Also in attendance are Frotgier’s sons Walter (Gualterio) and Botardo. Another online translation that was used that was translated by DuPaz (p).
> If anyone would like to take a stab at translating further and or finding mistakes please do.
I don't have time to go through this in detail, but the dispute was not
> If anyone would like to take a stab at translating further and or finding mistakes please do.
over Hervé, a canon at Tours, becoming a monk at 'the Monastery of
Erbrée', rather it was over his giving the church of Erbrée and its
presbyterate to Marmoutier (not 'Martimour') when he became a monk
there. Clarice struck him at the altar when he and Rivallon were saying
mass, and she was whipped for this sacrilege rather than for insolence.
The citation given by Keats-Rohan ('B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6') is
not to this charter at all but to to a 17th-century copy of a notice in
the cartulary of Marmoutier that Ralph the Large had given them the
church of Saint-Médard with the assent of his nine sons, as referenced
in your note (f), see
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.image.r=latin%205441.
Peter Stewart
John Watson
May 14, 2016, 12:31:15 AM5/14/16
to
On Friday, 13 May 2016 19:18:00 UTC+1, Jason Quick wrote:
> Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne
>
> Ralph the Large de Gahard
Is "the Large" a correct translation of Largus? Ralph "the Generous" seems more correct.
> Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne
>
> Ralph the Large de Gahard
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart via
May 14, 2016, 12:49:29 AM5/14/16
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
recently in English and still does in French.
In the case of a man with nine sons 'largus' may have meant copious, in
a philoprogenitive way.
Peter Stewart
Jason Quick
May 14, 2016, 1:40:08 AM5/14/16
to
Thanks for the keen eye Peter on my sources and clarifying the translations from Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3. I think my copy paste from my notes got the best of me.
Yes you are 100% correct the reference for (b) should be
(b). Recueil d'actes inédits des ducs et princes de Bretagne' edited by Arthur de la Borderie, pg. 33. Donation of Raoul Le Large to the priory of Gahrad (1040-1066). “Radulfus cognomento Largus donat Sancto Exupcrio silvam Bornus, monachis qui in Gahardo commorantur. Signum ejus et Mainonis, Heweni et Guillelmi filiorum ejus. Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi. A la marge Signum comitis Conani Signum comitis Heudonis” https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XqswAQAAIAAJ
As for the mention of, (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) in that final paragraph, yes that should be eliminated entirely. You wouldn’t happen to know if there is a full translation of that charter anywhere?
Thanks Again
Jason
Yes you are 100% correct the reference for (b) should be
(b). Recueil d'actes inédits des ducs et princes de Bretagne' edited by Arthur de la Borderie, pg. 33. Donation of Raoul Le Large to the priory of Gahrad (1040-1066). “Radulfus cognomento Largus donat Sancto Exupcrio silvam Bornus, monachis qui in Gahardo commorantur. Signum ejus et Mainonis, Heweni et Guillelmi filiorum ejus. Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi. A la marge Signum comitis Conani Signum comitis Heudonis” https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XqswAQAAIAAJ
As for the mention of, (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) in that final paragraph, yes that should be eliminated entirely. You wouldn’t happen to know if there is a full translation of that charter anywhere?
Thanks Again
Jason
Jason Quick
May 14, 2016, 2:39:10 AM5/14/16
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Copy
I took another look at this and I think Keats Rohan meant to say 294-6 not 295-6 for (B. N. lat. 5441.3). Pages 294-95 has a shorter copied charter about Hervé and the Monstary of Erbrée mentioning Euen de St Germain which is a modified copy of Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3. The bottom of page 295 has the Charter of Saint-Médard with Ralph the large mentioned with his 9 sons and continues onto page 296. You can disregard my last post about needing another source.
Thanks
>
> I don't have time to go through this in detail, but the dispute was not
> over Hervé, a canon at Tours, becoming a monk at 'the Monastery of
> Erbrée', rather it was over his giving the church of Erbrée and its
> presbyterate to Marmoutier (not 'Martimour') when he became a monk
> there. Clarice struck him at the altar when he and Rivallon were saying
> mass, and she was whipped for this sacrilege rather than for insolence.
> The citation given by Keats-Rohan ('B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6') is
> not to this charter at all but to to a 17th-century copy of a notice in
> the cartulary of Marmoutier that Ralph the Large had given them the
> church of Saint-Médard with the assent of his nine sons, as referenced
> in your note (f), see
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.image.r=latin%205441.
>
> Peter Stewart
Peter,
> I don't have time to go through this in detail, but the dispute was not
> over Hervé, a canon at Tours, becoming a monk at 'the Monastery of
> Erbrée', rather it was over his giving the church of Erbrée and its
> presbyterate to Marmoutier (not 'Martimour') when he became a monk
> there. Clarice struck him at the altar when he and Rivallon were saying
> mass, and she was whipped for this sacrilege rather than for insolence.
> The citation given by Keats-Rohan ('B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6') is
> not to this charter at all but to to a 17th-century copy of a notice in
> the cartulary of Marmoutier that Ralph the Large had given them the
> church of Saint-Médard with the assent of his nine sons, as referenced
> in your note (f), see
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.image.r=latin%205441.
>
> Peter Stewart
I took another look at this and I think Keats Rohan meant to say 294-6 not 295-6 for (B. N. lat. 5441.3). Pages 294-95 has a shorter copied charter about Hervé and the Monstary of Erbrée mentioning Euen de St Germain which is a modified copy of Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3. The bottom of page 295 has the Charter of Saint-Médard with Ralph the large mentioned with his 9 sons and continues onto page 296. You can disregard my last post about needing another source.
Thanks
Peter Stewart
May 14, 2016, 2:57:44 AM5/14/16
to
On Saturday, May 14, 2016 at 3:40:08 PM UTC+10, Jason Quick wrote:
> As for the mention of, (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) in that final
> paragraph, yes that should be eliminated entirely. You wouldn’t happen
> to know if there is a full translation of that charter anywhere?
I don't think the actual charter has come down to us - as far as I know all we have is this notice as copied by Roger de Gaignières (in the early-18th century, not in the 17th as I mistakenly wrote before).
> As for the mention of, (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) in that final
> paragraph, yes that should be eliminated entirely. You wouldn’t happen
> to know if there is a full translation of that charter anywhere?
The notice is as follows:
Rad[ulfus] Largus dedit nobis ecclesiam Sancti Medardi cum &c. annuentibus filiis suis, Manio Ivano Guill[elm]o Steph[an]o Alfr[edo] Rotb[erto] Herv[eo] Juhali Herberto. Testes Rad. de Meso Germundi. &c.
(Radulf le Large gave us the church of Saint-Médard with etc. [its appurtenances], his sons assenting, Main, Iwan, William, Stephen, Alfred, Robert, Hervé, Juhail, Herbert. Witnesses Rad[ulf] de Meso Germund, et al.)
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart via
May 14, 2016, 3:06:00 AM5/14/16
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On pp. 294-5 is a copy made by Roger de Gaignières of the cartulary
version of the original charter dated 1104 that you already found,
http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/.
Peter Stewart
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