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C.P. Addition: Thomas Hopton, Esq., of Hopton, Shropshire, and his 2nd wife, Alice
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Douglas Richardson
Jul 15, 2013, 3:47:18 PM7/15/13
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 262–263 (sub Lucy) and 12(2) (1959): 842–846 (sub Worcester) twice mentions Thomas Hopton, of Hopton, Shropshire, Staunton-upon-Arrow, Herefordshire, etc., husband of Eleanor Lucy, elder daughter of Walter Lucy, Knt. (died 1444), of Woodcroft (in Luton), Bedfordshire, Chelmscott (in Soulbury) and Cublington, Buckinghamshire, etc. In neither account does Complete Peerage indicate the social rank of Thomas Hopton, nor is any indication given of his death date. Nor is any death date provided for Eleanor Lucy, although it is implied (correctly) in the Lucy account that she predeceased her only brother, Sir William Lucy, who died 10 July 1460.
Thomas Hopton is elsewhere mentioned in the published visitations of Shropshire. In one instance, no indication is made of Thomas Hopton's social rank. In the other pedigree, he is called Sir Thomas Hopton which indicates he was a knight. Here are those references:
1. Tresswell & Vincent Vis. of Shropshire 1623, 1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889): 132–138 (1623 Vis.) (Corbet ped.: “Thomas Hopton = Elianora filia et cohæres Walteri Lucy”), 253–256 (Hopton ped.: “Sir Thomas Hopton = Ellenor da. & heire [of Sir Walter Lucy of Newington Lucy]”) (Hopton arms: Gules, semee of cross-crosslets fitchee, a lion rampant or).
Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 3 (1992): 412–413 mentions Thomas Hopton (husband of Eleanor Lucy) in a footnote in the biography of his contemporary kinsman, also named Thomas Hopton. Again no indication is given regarding Thomas Hopton's social rank or his date of death.
"It is difficult to distinguish the MP from Thomas Hopton of Hopton, who inherited estates at Fitz, Sandford and Burwarton in Shropshire and at Staunton-on-Arrow, Herefordshire. That Thomas would appear to have been the 2nd s. of Walter Hopton, esquire, who was murdered at Ludlow in 1412, and h. to his bro. Walter, then left a minor in the wardship of Thomas Fitzalan, earl of Arundel. He came of age bef. 1420 and m. Eleanor, da. of Sir Walter Lucy of Newington, Kent, and Richard’s Castle Herefs. by whom he had 1s. (Walter, who, a retainer of the duke of York, was to inherit a moiety of the Lucy estates in 1460 but die a year later) and 1da. (Elizabeth, afterwards w. of John Tiptoft, earl of Worcester). Thomas was also kinsman and h. of William Burley (d.1445) of Birley Herefs. - not to be confused with he of Broncroft. Which of the two served as a commr. of inquiry, Salop 1438, 1446; to raise royal loans 1446; of gaol delivery Richard’s Castle 1446 and Shrewsbury 1450, and as j.p. 1440-53, remains uncertain. Wm. Salt. Arch Soc. (ser. 2), ii. 158; C140/5/42; H. Owen and J.B. Blakeway, Hist. Shrewsbury, i. 132-3; C1/19/54; CPR, 1429-36, p. 65; 1446-52, p. 91; Feudal Aids, iv. 265, 267, 270; JUST 1/753/ m. 11; CP, xii. (2) 845; Bodl. Blakeway 24, ff. 32-33." END OF QUOTE.
Burke, History of the Commoners 4 (1838): 172 gives a pedigree of the Hopton family, which reads as follows:
"Sir Thomas Hopton, knt. = Eleanor, daughter of Sir Walter Lucy, of Newington Lucy." END OF QUOTE.
The question remains: Did Thomas Hopton hold the rank of esquire or was he a knight? Or was he simply a gentleman?
In such cases, the only reliable source for such information is contemporary records.
The earliest record I find of Thomas Hopton is dated 1420, in which year, as "Thomas son of Walter Hopton," he witnessed a charter of Thomas Neuport, of Ercallowe [Reference: Shropshire Archives: Phillipps Coll., 52/95 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)].
Next, I find that Thomas Hopton was heir in 1445 to his cousin, William Burley, Knt., by which he inherited the manor of Birley, Herefordshire and the castle of Emlyn uwch Cuch, Carmarthenshire.
In 1450, as "Thomas Hopton, esquire," he sued William Vaux, Esq., of Great Harrowden, Northamptonshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, rot. 39f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/aCP40no758fronts/IMG_0039.htm)]. William Vaux, Esq., the defendant in this lawsuit, was the husband of Eleanor (Lucy) Hopton's sister, Maud Lucy.
Likewise in 1450, again as "Thomas Hopton, esquire," he sued Hugh Gogh, husbandman, of Bokenhill, Shropshire, and two others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, rot. 657d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/bCP40no758dorses/IMG_0657.htm)].
Thomas Hopton's possession of the castle of Emlyn uwch Cuch was evidently shortlived. Y Cymmrodor 32 (1922): 120 relates that “Griffith ap Nicholas ... ousted Thomas Hopton from his Lordship of Emlyn, and the Inquisition of 1461 states somewhat pathetically that Walter Hopton, the son and heir, dared not approach his patrimony. And it seems that when Walter died, his heir, viz., his sister Elizabeth, the wife of Roger Corbet of Moreton, suffered a like indignity and loss." END OF QUOTE.
The above material may be found at the following weblink:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015028189671;view=1up;seq=142
Beyond the loss of Emlyn uwch Cuch, the above information reveals that Thomas Hopton predeceased his son, Walter Hopton, Esq., who is known to have died in 1461.
Thomas Hopton was presumably deceased in 1460, when I find that his son and heir, Walter, as "Walter Hopton, esquire," sued Roger Wyggemore, Esq., of Lutton, Herefordshore, and another in the the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 104f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0104.htm).
Finally I find that in 1465 Alice, widow of Thomas Hopton, Esq., sued Roger Corbet and his wife, Elizabeth, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding dower in Staunton-on-Arrow and Birley, Herefordshire and Hopton, Eaton Constantine, Fitz, Shelderton, and Wistanstowe, Shropshire. [References: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/814, rot. 1216d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no814/bCP40no814dorses/IMG_1216.htm); Court of Common Pleas, CP40/814, rot. 1420d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no814/bCP40no814dorses/IMG_1420.htm)]. Elizabeth, wife of Roger Corbet, named in these two lawsuits was the daughter of Thomas Hopton, by Eleanor Lucy.
These two lawsuits are the first notice that I've found that Thomas Hopton had a second wife, Alice, who survived him and was living in 1465. Thus Complete Peerage needs amendment to show that Eleanor Lucy was Thomas Hopton's first wife.
As to Thomas Hopton's social rank, I note that Thomas Hopton is called "esquire" in 1450 and again in 1465 following his death. As such, it is clear that he was never knighted. His social rank was esquire.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Thomas Hopton, Esq., and his first wife, Eleanor Lucy:
Robert Abell, Nathaniel Littleton, and Richard More [passenger on the Mayflower].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 262–263 (sub Lucy) and 12(2) (1959): 842–846 (sub Worcester) twice mentions Thomas Hopton, of Hopton, Shropshire, Staunton-upon-Arrow, Herefordshire, etc., husband of Eleanor Lucy, elder daughter of Walter Lucy, Knt. (died 1444), of Woodcroft (in Luton), Bedfordshire, Chelmscott (in Soulbury) and Cublington, Buckinghamshire, etc. In neither account does Complete Peerage indicate the social rank of Thomas Hopton, nor is any indication given of his death date. Nor is any death date provided for Eleanor Lucy, although it is implied (correctly) in the Lucy account that she predeceased her only brother, Sir William Lucy, who died 10 July 1460.
Thomas Hopton is elsewhere mentioned in the published visitations of Shropshire. In one instance, no indication is made of Thomas Hopton's social rank. In the other pedigree, he is called Sir Thomas Hopton which indicates he was a knight. Here are those references:
1. Tresswell & Vincent Vis. of Shropshire 1623, 1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889): 132–138 (1623 Vis.) (Corbet ped.: “Thomas Hopton = Elianora filia et cohæres Walteri Lucy”), 253–256 (Hopton ped.: “Sir Thomas Hopton = Ellenor da. & heire [of Sir Walter Lucy of Newington Lucy]”) (Hopton arms: Gules, semee of cross-crosslets fitchee, a lion rampant or).
Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 3 (1992): 412–413 mentions Thomas Hopton (husband of Eleanor Lucy) in a footnote in the biography of his contemporary kinsman, also named Thomas Hopton. Again no indication is given regarding Thomas Hopton's social rank or his date of death.
"It is difficult to distinguish the MP from Thomas Hopton of Hopton, who inherited estates at Fitz, Sandford and Burwarton in Shropshire and at Staunton-on-Arrow, Herefordshire. That Thomas would appear to have been the 2nd s. of Walter Hopton, esquire, who was murdered at Ludlow in 1412, and h. to his bro. Walter, then left a minor in the wardship of Thomas Fitzalan, earl of Arundel. He came of age bef. 1420 and m. Eleanor, da. of Sir Walter Lucy of Newington, Kent, and Richard’s Castle Herefs. by whom he had 1s. (Walter, who, a retainer of the duke of York, was to inherit a moiety of the Lucy estates in 1460 but die a year later) and 1da. (Elizabeth, afterwards w. of John Tiptoft, earl of Worcester). Thomas was also kinsman and h. of William Burley (d.1445) of Birley Herefs. - not to be confused with he of Broncroft. Which of the two served as a commr. of inquiry, Salop 1438, 1446; to raise royal loans 1446; of gaol delivery Richard’s Castle 1446 and Shrewsbury 1450, and as j.p. 1440-53, remains uncertain. Wm. Salt. Arch Soc. (ser. 2), ii. 158; C140/5/42; H. Owen and J.B. Blakeway, Hist. Shrewsbury, i. 132-3; C1/19/54; CPR, 1429-36, p. 65; 1446-52, p. 91; Feudal Aids, iv. 265, 267, 270; JUST 1/753/ m. 11; CP, xii. (2) 845; Bodl. Blakeway 24, ff. 32-33." END OF QUOTE.
Burke, History of the Commoners 4 (1838): 172 gives a pedigree of the Hopton family, which reads as follows:
"Sir Thomas Hopton, knt. = Eleanor, daughter of Sir Walter Lucy, of Newington Lucy." END OF QUOTE.
The question remains: Did Thomas Hopton hold the rank of esquire or was he a knight? Or was he simply a gentleman?
In such cases, the only reliable source for such information is contemporary records.
The earliest record I find of Thomas Hopton is dated 1420, in which year, as "Thomas son of Walter Hopton," he witnessed a charter of Thomas Neuport, of Ercallowe [Reference: Shropshire Archives: Phillipps Coll., 52/95 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)].
Next, I find that Thomas Hopton was heir in 1445 to his cousin, William Burley, Knt., by which he inherited the manor of Birley, Herefordshire and the castle of Emlyn uwch Cuch, Carmarthenshire.
In 1450, as "Thomas Hopton, esquire," he sued William Vaux, Esq., of Great Harrowden, Northamptonshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, rot. 39f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/aCP40no758fronts/IMG_0039.htm)]. William Vaux, Esq., the defendant in this lawsuit, was the husband of Eleanor (Lucy) Hopton's sister, Maud Lucy.
Likewise in 1450, again as "Thomas Hopton, esquire," he sued Hugh Gogh, husbandman, of Bokenhill, Shropshire, and two others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, rot. 657d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/bCP40no758dorses/IMG_0657.htm)].
Thomas Hopton's possession of the castle of Emlyn uwch Cuch was evidently shortlived. Y Cymmrodor 32 (1922): 120 relates that “Griffith ap Nicholas ... ousted Thomas Hopton from his Lordship of Emlyn, and the Inquisition of 1461 states somewhat pathetically that Walter Hopton, the son and heir, dared not approach his patrimony. And it seems that when Walter died, his heir, viz., his sister Elizabeth, the wife of Roger Corbet of Moreton, suffered a like indignity and loss." END OF QUOTE.
The above material may be found at the following weblink:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015028189671;view=1up;seq=142
Beyond the loss of Emlyn uwch Cuch, the above information reveals that Thomas Hopton predeceased his son, Walter Hopton, Esq., who is known to have died in 1461.
Thomas Hopton was presumably deceased in 1460, when I find that his son and heir, Walter, as "Walter Hopton, esquire," sued Roger Wyggemore, Esq., of Lutton, Herefordshore, and another in the the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 104f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0104.htm).
Finally I find that in 1465 Alice, widow of Thomas Hopton, Esq., sued Roger Corbet and his wife, Elizabeth, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding dower in Staunton-on-Arrow and Birley, Herefordshire and Hopton, Eaton Constantine, Fitz, Shelderton, and Wistanstowe, Shropshire. [References: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/814, rot. 1216d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no814/bCP40no814dorses/IMG_1216.htm); Court of Common Pleas, CP40/814, rot. 1420d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no814/bCP40no814dorses/IMG_1420.htm)]. Elizabeth, wife of Roger Corbet, named in these two lawsuits was the daughter of Thomas Hopton, by Eleanor Lucy.
These two lawsuits are the first notice that I've found that Thomas Hopton had a second wife, Alice, who survived him and was living in 1465. Thus Complete Peerage needs amendment to show that Eleanor Lucy was Thomas Hopton's first wife.
As to Thomas Hopton's social rank, I note that Thomas Hopton is called "esquire" in 1450 and again in 1465 following his death. As such, it is clear that he was never knighted. His social rank was esquire.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Thomas Hopton, Esq., and his first wife, Eleanor Lucy:
Robert Abell, Nathaniel Littleton, and Richard More [passenger on the Mayflower].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Leo van de Pas
Jul 15, 2013, 5:31:53 PM7/15/13
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This message is very interesting as it adds knowledge to ancestors of Prince
William. It also showed I had a muddle as far as the second husband of
Elizabeth Hopton was concerned. It is a pity not more is known about Thomas
Hopton's second wife, only her name Alice and that she was alive in 1465.
Douglas only mentions three Gateway Ancestors, Richard More, Robert Abell
and Nathaniel Littleton.
I would like to add Edward Palmes, Charles Chambers, Thomas Booth, Sarah
Gloss, Lord Charles Greville Montagu and John Yates.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2013 5:47 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: C.P. Addition: Thomas Hopton, Esq., of Hopton, Shropshire, and his
2nd wife, Alice
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 262�263 (sub Lucy) and 12(2) (1959): 842�846 (sub
Worcester) twice mentions Thomas Hopton, of Hopton, Shropshire,
Staunton-upon-Arrow, Herefordshire, etc., husband of Eleanor Lucy, elder
daughter of Walter Lucy, Knt. (died 1444), of Woodcroft (in Luton),
Bedfordshire, Chelmscott (in Soulbury) and Cublington, Buckinghamshire, etc.
In neither account does Complete Peerage indicate the social rank of Thomas
Hopton, nor is any indication given of his death date. Nor is any death
date provided for Eleanor Lucy, although it is implied (correctly) in the
Lucy account that she predeceased her only brother, Sir William Lucy, who
died 10 July 1460.
Thomas Hopton is elsewhere mentioned in the published visitations of
Shropshire. In one instance, no indication is made of Thomas Hopton's
social rank. In the other pedigree, he is called Sir Thomas Hopton which
indicates he was a knight. Here are those references:
1. Tresswell & Vincent Vis. of Shropshire 1623, 1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28)
(1889): 132�138 (1623 Vis.) (Corbet ped.: �Thomas Hopton = Elianora filia et
coh�res Walteri Lucy�), 253�256 (Hopton ped.: �Sir Thomas Hopton = Ellenor
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
William. It also showed I had a muddle as far as the second husband of
Elizabeth Hopton was concerned. It is a pity not more is known about Thomas
Hopton's second wife, only her name Alice and that she was alive in 1465.
Douglas only mentions three Gateway Ancestors, Richard More, Robert Abell
and Nathaniel Littleton.
I would like to add Edward Palmes, Charles Chambers, Thomas Booth, Sarah
Gloss, Lord Charles Greville Montagu and John Yates.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2013 5:47 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: C.P. Addition: Thomas Hopton, Esq., of Hopton, Shropshire, and his
2nd wife, Alice
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 262�263 (sub Lucy) and 12(2) (1959): 842�846 (sub
Worcester) twice mentions Thomas Hopton, of Hopton, Shropshire,
Staunton-upon-Arrow, Herefordshire, etc., husband of Eleanor Lucy, elder
daughter of Walter Lucy, Knt. (died 1444), of Woodcroft (in Luton),
Bedfordshire, Chelmscott (in Soulbury) and Cublington, Buckinghamshire, etc.
In neither account does Complete Peerage indicate the social rank of Thomas
Hopton, nor is any indication given of his death date. Nor is any death
date provided for Eleanor Lucy, although it is implied (correctly) in the
Lucy account that she predeceased her only brother, Sir William Lucy, who
died 10 July 1460.
Thomas Hopton is elsewhere mentioned in the published visitations of
Shropshire. In one instance, no indication is made of Thomas Hopton's
social rank. In the other pedigree, he is called Sir Thomas Hopton which
indicates he was a knight. Here are those references:
1. Tresswell & Vincent Vis. of Shropshire 1623, 1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28)
(1889): 132�138 (1623 Vis.) (Corbet ped.: �Thomas Hopton = Elianora filia et
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
willac...@yahoo.co.uk
Jul 15, 2013, 6:18:43 PM7/15/13
to
Thomas Hopton’s relationship to the Burley family is set out in the IPM of William Burley (d. 1445):
http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/
Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir Richard Burley” in the family tree.
http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/
Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir Richard Burley” in the family tree.
taf
Jul 15, 2013, 6:44:32 PM7/15/13
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
On Monday, July 15, 2013 3:18:43 PM UTC-7, willac...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>
http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/
>
> Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the
deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir
Richard Burley” in the family tree.
>
That is just an error in the construction of the pedigree on the web site -
>
>
http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/
>
> Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the
deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir
Richard Burley” in the family tree.
>
the text right underneath explicitly states that Roger succeeded his
brothers Richard and William, which means that they d.s.p. Thus the
vertical line has just been drawn wrong.
taf
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 15, 2013, 6:59:53 PM7/15/13
to
It's questionable whether either CP or HOP should be faulted because they do not specify the "social rank" of Thomas Hopton of Hopton or give any indication of when he died. Neither CP nor HOP generally gives any "social rank" to a person who is not a peer, a baronet, or a knight. This is pretty clear in this particular case from the context of the references given, especially CP 8:263 and CP 12.2:845 which both discuss multiple individuals without attempting to identify "social ranks". This affectation of "social rank" may be a style which DR chooses to use in his publications, but it doesn't seem to be the general style used by CP or HOP.
With respect to the death date, all that is known is that Thomas Hopton died before his son Walter who died in 1461. In the context of the two CP entries (especially the second one), there is no reason why CP needs to discuss Thomas Hopton's death date - particularly since it's so uncertain.
There seem to be two sources which identify Thomas Hopton as a knight: Burke's Commoners (a VERY reliable source, right?) and the Shropshire visitation (which contradicts itself between the Corbett and Hopton pedigrees). In addition, here's a post from the past in this group which also calls him "Sir Thomas Hopton, living 1445" - note the author of the post:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-06/1023208392
However, if the poster here had checked the source he cited (Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter), he should have noticed that the source calls him "Thomas Hopton" in one paragraph and "Sir Thomas Hopton" in the next. Not very conclusive....
BTW he's also called "Sir Thomas Hopton" in at least the first editions of both Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry. Has this been corrected in the later editions of these works?
With respect to the death date, all that is known is that Thomas Hopton died before his son Walter who died in 1461. In the context of the two CP entries (especially the second one), there is no reason why CP needs to discuss Thomas Hopton's death date - particularly since it's so uncertain.
There seem to be two sources which identify Thomas Hopton as a knight: Burke's Commoners (a VERY reliable source, right?) and the Shropshire visitation (which contradicts itself between the Corbett and Hopton pedigrees). In addition, here's a post from the past in this group which also calls him "Sir Thomas Hopton, living 1445" - note the author of the post:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-06/1023208392
However, if the poster here had checked the source he cited (Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter), he should have noticed that the source calls him "Thomas Hopton" in one paragraph and "Sir Thomas Hopton" in the next. Not very conclusive....
BTW he's also called "Sir Thomas Hopton" in at least the first editions of both Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry. Has this been corrected in the later editions of these works?
Monica Kanellis
Jul 15, 2013, 7:35:23 PM7/15/13
to taf, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
any connection to the family below? This is pretty much all I have on them.
"The next owners of Compton Comberwell were probably the Berlegh family,
the first Deed relating thereto being No. 1022 dated in 1327 in which Roger
de Berlegh senior, is a principal party. Many transactions are recorded by
him in the succeeding charters, among them being a lease of the manor in
1351 made with his consent by James Husee, of Hampton [No. 1036], and in
Nos. 1037-1039 we find Roger de Berlegh's son also called Roger had married
James Husee's daughter Sibilla to whom the elder Roger conveyed lands in
Comerwell. By 1405 and perhaps earlier John Blount and his wife Willelma or
whatever the female equivalent of William may be [she is once called
Williame, but that is in a French charter] were lords of the manor [No.
1042] in those family it remained according to Marsh till 1476. Sir John
Hussey had it in 1531 for in that year it passed with Compton Bassett from
his family to the Buttons, as has been shown above."
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=168-ddwhb_1&cid=-1#-1
mk
"The next owners of Compton Comberwell were probably the Berlegh family,
the first Deed relating thereto being No. 1022 dated in 1327 in which Roger
de Berlegh senior, is a principal party. Many transactions are recorded by
him in the succeeding charters, among them being a lease of the manor in
1351 made with his consent by James Husee, of Hampton [No. 1036], and in
Nos. 1037-1039 we find Roger de Berlegh's son also called Roger had married
James Husee's daughter Sibilla to whom the elder Roger conveyed lands in
Comerwell. By 1405 and perhaps earlier John Blount and his wife Willelma or
whatever the female equivalent of William may be [she is once called
Williame, but that is in a French charter] were lords of the manor [No.
1042] in those family it remained according to Marsh till 1476. Sir John
Hussey had it in 1531 for in that year it passed with Compton Bassett from
his family to the Buttons, as has been shown above."
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=168-ddwhb_1&cid=-1#-1
mk
Olivier
Jul 16, 2013, 4:03:05 AM7/16/13
to
The links to Prince William :
Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
|
Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
Roger Corbet +1467
|
Richard Corbet +1492 &
Elizabeth Devereux +1541
|
Mary Corbet 1478 &
Thomas Lacon
|
Mary Lacon &
Thomas Acton
|
Joyce Acton &
Thomas Lucy +ca 1600
|
Anne Lucy &
Edward Aston +1597
|
Walter Aston, Lord Aston of Forfar 1583-1639 &1607
Gertrude Sadleir 1582-1635/
|
Constance Aston +1635/ &1629
Walter Fowler +1629/
|
Magdalen Fowler +/1695 &
Nn Casey
|
Catherine Casey +1725 &
John Betham 1670-1719
|
Catherine Betham +1760 &1726
Thomas Belasyse, Earl Fauconberg +1774
|
Henry Belasyse, Earl Fauconberg 1743-1802 &1766
Charlotte Lamb 1743-1790
|
Elizabeth Belasyse 1770-1819 &1794
Richard Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1764-1839
|
George Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1800-1888 &1829
Anne Brudenell 1809-1877
|
Charles George Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1830-1914 &1859
Cecilia Gordon-Lennox 1838-1910
|
Rosalind Bingham 1869-1958 &1894
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1869-1953
|
Cynthia Hamilton 1897-1972 &1919
Albert, Earl Spencer 1892-1975
|
Edward John, Earl Spencer 1924-1992 &1954
Frances Burke Roche 1936-2004
|
Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 &1981
Charles, Prince of Wales 1948-
|
William, Duke of Cambridge 1982-
and
Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
|
Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
Roger Corbet +1467
|
Richard Corbet +1492 &
Elizabeth Devereux +1541
|
Mary Corbet 1478 &
Thomas Lacon
|
Jane Lacon &
George Bromley
|
Thomas Bromley 1530-1587 &1560
Elizabeth Fortescue +1602
|
Elizabeth Bromley &
Oliver Cromwell 1563-1655
|
Elizabeth Cromwell &
Richard Ingoldsby
|
Anne Ingoldsby &
Edward Chaloner
|
William Chaloner 1655-1715 &1682
Honora Foulis +1715
|
Edward Chaloner 1683-1737 &1713
Anne Bowes 1695-1734
|
William Chaloner 1714-1754 &
Mary Finny
|
Anne Chaloner 1742-1805 &1761
Edward Lascelles, Earl of Harewood 1740-1820
|
Frances Lascelles 1762-1817 &1784
John Douglas 1756-1818
|
Harriet Douglas 1792-1833 &1809
James, Viscount Hamilton 1786-1814
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1811-1885 &1832
Louisa Jane Russell 1812-1905
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1838-1913 &1869
Mary Curzon 1848-1929
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1869-1953 &1894
Rosalind Bingham 1869-1958
|
Cynthia Hamilton 1897-1972 &1919
Albert, Earl Spencer 1892-1975
|
Edward John, Earl Spencer 1924-1992 &1954
Frances Burke Roche 1936-2004
|
Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 &1981
Charles, Prince of Wales 1948-
|
William, Duke of Cambridge 1982-
> cohæres Walteri Lucy”), 253–256 (Hopton ped.: “Sir Thomas Hopton = Ellenor
Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
|
Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
Roger Corbet +1467
|
Richard Corbet +1492 &
Elizabeth Devereux +1541
|
Mary Corbet 1478 &
Thomas Lacon
|
Mary Lacon &
Thomas Acton
|
Joyce Acton &
Thomas Lucy +ca 1600
|
Anne Lucy &
Edward Aston +1597
|
Walter Aston, Lord Aston of Forfar 1583-1639 &1607
Gertrude Sadleir 1582-1635/
|
Constance Aston +1635/ &1629
Walter Fowler +1629/
|
Magdalen Fowler +/1695 &
Nn Casey
|
Catherine Casey +1725 &
John Betham 1670-1719
|
Catherine Betham +1760 &1726
Thomas Belasyse, Earl Fauconberg +1774
|
Henry Belasyse, Earl Fauconberg 1743-1802 &1766
Charlotte Lamb 1743-1790
|
Elizabeth Belasyse 1770-1819 &1794
Richard Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1764-1839
|
George Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1800-1888 &1829
Anne Brudenell 1809-1877
|
Charles George Bingham, Earl of Lucan 1830-1914 &1859
Cecilia Gordon-Lennox 1838-1910
|
Rosalind Bingham 1869-1958 &1894
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1869-1953
|
Cynthia Hamilton 1897-1972 &1919
Albert, Earl Spencer 1892-1975
|
Edward John, Earl Spencer 1924-1992 &1954
Frances Burke Roche 1936-2004
|
Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 &1981
Charles, Prince of Wales 1948-
|
William, Duke of Cambridge 1982-
and
Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
|
Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
Roger Corbet +1467
|
Richard Corbet +1492 &
Elizabeth Devereux +1541
|
Mary Corbet 1478 &
Thomas Lacon
|
Jane Lacon &
George Bromley
|
Thomas Bromley 1530-1587 &1560
Elizabeth Fortescue +1602
|
Elizabeth Bromley &
Oliver Cromwell 1563-1655
|
Elizabeth Cromwell &
Richard Ingoldsby
|
Anne Ingoldsby &
Edward Chaloner
|
William Chaloner 1655-1715 &1682
Honora Foulis +1715
|
Edward Chaloner 1683-1737 &1713
Anne Bowes 1695-1734
|
William Chaloner 1714-1754 &
Mary Finny
|
Anne Chaloner 1742-1805 &1761
Edward Lascelles, Earl of Harewood 1740-1820
|
Frances Lascelles 1762-1817 &1784
John Douglas 1756-1818
|
Harriet Douglas 1792-1833 &1809
James, Viscount Hamilton 1786-1814
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1811-1885 &1832
Louisa Jane Russell 1812-1905
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1838-1913 &1869
Mary Curzon 1848-1929
|
James Hamilton, Duke of Abercorn 1869-1953 &1894
Rosalind Bingham 1869-1958
|
Cynthia Hamilton 1897-1972 &1919
Albert, Earl Spencer 1892-1975
|
Edward John, Earl Spencer 1924-1992 &1954
Frances Burke Roche 1936-2004
|
Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 &1981
Charles, Prince of Wales 1948-
|
William, Duke of Cambridge 1982-
Matt Tompkins
Jul 16, 2013, 7:31:12 AM7/16/13
to
On Monday, July 15, 2013 11:18:43 PM UTC+1, willac...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Thomas Hopton’s relationship to the Burley family is set out in the IPM of William Burley (d. 1445): http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/ Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir Richard Burley” in the family tree.
Well spotted - we'll get that corrected.
> Thomas Hopton’s relationship to the Burley family is set out in the IPM of William Burley (d. 1445): http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/01/up-and-down-the-family-tree-or-medieval-heir-hunters/ Confusingly, the article mentions “Roger Burley, grandfather of the deceased”, but William’s grandfather is shown to have been called “Sir Richard Burley” in the family tree.
Matt Tompkins
Brad Verity
Jul 16, 2013, 12:40:31 PM7/16/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 1:03:05 AM UTC-7, Olivier wrote:
> The links to Prince William :
> Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
> Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
> |
> Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
> Roger Corbet +1467
Roger Corbet was born about 1415. He was knighted.
> The links to Prince William :
> Thomas Hopton 1399-1445/ &
> Eleonor Lucy 1407-ca 1460
> |
> Elizabeth Hopton 1427-1498 &
> Roger Corbet +1467
> |
> Richard Corbet +1492 &
> Elizabeth Devereux +1541
> |
> Mary Corbet 1478 &
> Thomas Lacon
> |
> Mary Lacon &
> Thomas Acton
> |
> Joyce Acton &
> Thomas Lucy +ca 1600
> |
> Anne Lucy &
> Edward Aston +1597
> |
> Walter Aston, Lord Aston of Forfar 1583-1639 &1607
> Gertrude Sadleir 1582-1635/
> |
> Constance Aston +1635/ &1629
> Walter Fowler +1629/
> and
> |
> Jane Lacon &
> George Bromley
Anne (I think that's her first name in original documents - later genealogists mistakenly made it 'Jane') Lacon was born about 1505 (her eldest son was born in 1525/6). I don't have a death date for her. George Bromley of Hodnet was her first husband. He died 7 July 1533. She married 2nd, William Egerton of Betley.
> Jane Lacon &
> George Bromley
> |
> Thomas Bromley 1530-1587 &1560
> Elizabeth Fortescue +1602
> |
> Elizabeth Bromley &
> Oliver Cromwell 1563-1655
Sorry I can't help with the later generations, Olivier. But I hope some of the above is useful.
Cheers, -----Brad
hoove...@yahoo.com
Jul 16, 2013, 2:42:45 PM7/16/13
to
Just as Herbert Hoover (my uncle) was the nephew of Herbert Hoover (his uncle), (true, but OFF TOPIC) so too was Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protector the nephew of Oliver Cromwell, 1563-1655,
http://www.wargs.com/essays/welsh/williamsm.html
Get ready to do a lot of scrolling, because it's ALL the way down at the end.
Cordially,
Marc
http://www.wargs.com/essays/welsh/williamsm.html
Get ready to do a lot of scrolling, because it's ALL the way down at the end.
Cordially,
Marc
Brad Verity
Jul 16, 2013, 3:09:31 PM7/16/13
to
Message has been deleted
hoove...@yahoo.com
Jul 16, 2013, 3:46:56 PM7/16/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:29:46 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Just as Herbert Hoover (my uncle) was the nephew of Herbert Hoover (his uncle), (true, but OFF TOPIC) so too was Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protector
>
>
>
> Different Hoover family, of course ...
> > Just as Herbert Hoover (my uncle) was the nephew of Herbert Hoover (his uncle), (true, but OFF TOPIC) so too was Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protector
>
>
>
Aw, man ... you were so cool about helping me out with my Cave King of Maryland inquiry last winter but I have to ask, different from who?
But I'm not without fault myself ... I said my uncle was (as if he's dead and he's not) the nephew of ...
Sadly, I'm not young enough to be the great-nephew of someone born after Hoover became president. The earlier Herbert was born when the future president was only a post-WWI bureaucrat. But my mom's a descendant of a brother (apparently) of President Hoover ancestor #251.
Marc
Message has been deleted
hoove...@yahoo.com
Jul 16, 2013, 8:03:19 PM7/16/13
to
I'd be extremely surprised if more than a very small percentage of people in the United States could name, in order, the four presidents prior to Obama (make that three) much less have heard of the famous Herbert Hoover. I hate to be sarcastic about the intelligence of the American people but I have a feeling as many of them would associate the name of my other uncle, Lyle Hammel, with an American president as they would Herbert Hoover.
Best wishes,
Marc
Best wishes,
Marc
Message has been deleted
hoove...@yahoo.com
Jul 16, 2013, 8:32:23 PM7/16/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 8:10:36 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I'd be extremely surprised if more than a very small percentage of people in the United States could name, in order, the four presidents prior to Obama (make that three) much less have heard of the famous Herbert Hoover. I hate to be sarcastic about the intelligence of the American people but I have a feeling as many of them would associate the name of my other uncle, Lyle Hammel, with an American president as they would Herbert Hoover.
>
>
>
> So you wanted the few of us who actually know about THE Herbert Hoover to think you're his nephew?
> > I'd be extremely surprised if more than a very small percentage of people in the United States could name, in order, the four presidents prior to Obama (make that three) much less have heard of the famous Herbert Hoover. I hate to be sarcastic about the intelligence of the American people but I have a feeling as many of them would associate the name of my other uncle, Lyle Hammel, with an American president as they would Herbert Hoover.
>
>
>
I could only dream of such a glorious outcome! I'm certain the dozen or so people who read this, none of whom I've ever met, would consider me the next best thing to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.! Until the first of those dozen found out that THE Herbert Hoover's only brother had three daughters, and zero sons and then I'd look almost (but not quite) as foolish as I do for responding to this.
As if I "planned" in advance that someone would someday make an inquiry here about someone named Oliver Cromwell, and a possible connection to someone else named Oliver Cromwell, and they would turn out to be uncle and nephew and I'd FINALLY have the chance to AMAZE everybody here by announcing that I have an uncle named Herbert Hoover who had an uncle named Herbert Hoover. If only I were so lucky.
Matthew Connolly
Jul 17, 2013, 2:35:10 AM7/17/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:40:31 PM UTC+3, Brad Verity wrote:
> Mary Lacon was born 1506, and died 28 April 1564. Thomas Acton of Sutton Park was her first husband. He was born 1496, and died 2 January 1547. Mary married 2nd, George Vernon of Hodnet (died Dec. 1553).
Hi Brad - although Mary's MI says she died in 1564, her will was written in April 1563 and proved at the PCC 18 May 1563 (PROB 11/46/222, Mary Vernon of Sutton, widow). No doubt that it's the right lady - in it she desires to be buried at Tenbury with her late husband Thomas Acton; she also mentions her son-in-law [stepson] John Vernon, her son-in-law Thomas Lucy and daughter Joyce Lucy, and her Vernon children Dorothy, Anne, George and Edward.
> Mary Lacon was born 1506, and died 28 April 1564. Thomas Acton of Sutton Park was her first husband. He was born 1496, and died 2 January 1547. Mary married 2nd, George Vernon of Hodnet (died Dec. 1553).
As these four last never get mentioned, some further information may be of interest:
Anne made her will 29 Sept 1570, proved PCC 23 Nov 1570 (PROB 11/52/492, Anne Vernon of Charlecote, Gentlewoman); mentions sister Lady Lucy, latter's husband Sir Thomas Lucy, their children Thomas and Ann Lucy, and her Vernon siblings George, Dorothy and Edward.
Dorothy's will was proved 4 May 1599 (PROB 11/93/301, Dorothe Vernon of Llanthewy Rytherch, Monmouthshire). She mentions her brother Edward Vernon of Lincoln's Inn, two Leighton cousins and her cousin Elizabeth Herbert.
George Vernon may be the one whose will was proved 8 June 1604 (PROB 11/104/161, George Vernon of Hodnet, Gentleman); although I don't seem to have transcribed it yet.
Finally, Edward Vernon of Lincoln's Inn made his will 15 April 1616, proved 7 Oct 1616 (PROB 11/128/313). In it he names various Vernon and Lucy nephews and neices (including his well-known neice, the Countess of Southampton), plus sundry Leighton, Mytton and other cousins through the Lacon family, including 'Mr Baron Bromley'.
Hope these are of some use to your database! - Matthew
Message has been deleted
hoove...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 12:21:11 PM7/17/13
to
If you don't know what THIS means, good luck with Obamacare.
So I've been punked. How clever. This can't be the person in South Carolina I thought it was because that person would know what this means and wouldn't admit it if he didn't. And he never struck me as the type of person to pursue something this, for lack of a better word, trivial into a second day.
My guess? The person who spent part of a memorable day here as "Marrge Hoover" hacked into the e-mail account of the respected genealogist in South Carolina.
So I've been punked. How clever. This can't be the person in South Carolina I thought it was because that person would know what this means and wouldn't admit it if he didn't. And he never struck me as the type of person to pursue something this, for lack of a better word, trivial into a second day.
My guess? The person who spent part of a memorable day here as "Marrge Hoover" hacked into the e-mail account of the respected genealogist in South Carolina.
Message has been deleted
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 12:46:00 PM7/17/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:35:10 PM UTC-7, Matthew Connolly wrote:
> Hi Brad - although Mary's MI says she died in 1564, her will was written in April 1563 and proved at the PCC 18 May 1563 (PROB 11/46/222, Mary Vernon of Sutton, widow). No doubt that it's the right lady - in it she desires to be buried at Tenbury with her late husband Thomas Acton; she also mentions her son-in-law [stepson] John Vernon, her son-in-law Thomas Lucy and daughter Joyce Lucy, and her Vernon children Dorothy, Anne, George and Edward.
> Hi Brad - although Mary's MI says she died in 1564, her will was written in April 1563 and proved at the PCC 18 May 1563 (PROB 11/46/222, Mary Vernon of Sutton, widow). No doubt that it's the right lady - in it she desires to be buried at Tenbury with her late husband Thomas Acton; she also mentions her son-in-law [stepson] John Vernon, her son-in-law Thomas Lucy and daughter Joyce Lucy, and her Vernon children Dorothy, Anne, George and Edward.
> Hope these are of some use to your database! - Matthew
Thank you, Matthew. I've corrected Mary Lacon's death date and added in her four children with George Vernon. It's interesting that none of those four children (with the possible exception of George) appear to have married.
I've also adjusted her birthdate. Most online databases have her born in 1506, but that would make her age 40 when her first husband died, and for her to have gone on and had four children with her second husband while in her 40s doesn't seem likely. She was probably born closer to 1515. I've put 'about 1513' as her birthdate, making her about 19 when her daughter Joyce was born, about 34 when widowed, and about 50 at her death. She was definitely younger than her sister Jane (or Anne?) Lacon Bromley.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 1:16:55 PM7/17/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:40:31 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > Jane Lacon &
> > George Bromley
>
> Anne (I think that's her first name in original documents - later genealogists mistakenly made it 'Jane') Lacon was born about 1505 (her eldest son was born in 1525/6). I don't have a death date for her. George Bromley of Hodnet was her first husband. He died 7 July 1533. She married 2nd, William Egerton of Betley.
OK, I have clearly made an error - and entered this Lacon lady in my database as 'Anne', but her first name was indeed 'Jane'.
> > Jane Lacon &
> > George Bromley
>
> Anne (I think that's her first name in original documents - later genealogists mistakenly made it 'Jane') Lacon was born about 1505 (her eldest son was born in 1525/6). I don't have a death date for her. George Bromley of Hodnet was her first husband. He died 7 July 1533. She married 2nd, William Egerton of Betley.
"Upon the N. Wall of the Chancel William Egerton of Betley Esq'- Ld. of this Mannor married Jane the daur- of Sr- Tho. Lacon of Willey in the County of Salop Knt":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ah0OAQAAMAAJ&q=William+Egerton+married+Jane+Lacon&dq=William+Egerton+married+Jane+Lacon&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CNHmUfnwNuf0iQLy7oGABw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBw
"Willm. Egerton, Armiger" was buried at St. Margaret Church, Betley, Staffordshire on 22 Nov. 1571:
http://archive.org/stream/betleyparishregi00betl#page/22/mode/2up
"Jane Egerton, vidua" was buried at the same church on 22 Oct. 1578:
http://archive.org/stream/betleyparishregi00betl#page/26/mode/2up
William Egerton & Jane Lacon were seated at Betley Hall:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-273324-betley-old-hall-betley-staffordshire
Cheers, -----Brad
willac...@yahoo.co.uk
Jul 17, 2013, 1:30:29 PM7/17/13
to
<snip>
> I've also adjusted her birthdate. Most online databases have her born in
> 1506, but that would make her age 40 when her first husband died, and for her
> to have gone on and had four children with her second husband while in her
> 40s doesn't seem likely.
Mary Lacon was aged 58 when she died. See:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I188757&tree=Welsh
“MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTION: Tenbury> in the church, beneath which are two recumbent figures> "Here lyeth Thomas Acton of Sutton, Esquire who at the age of LXX years departed this lyfe the 2 Jan 1546 and Mary his wyfe Daughter of Sir Thomas Lacon of Willy Knight being of the age LVIII yeres Lykwys desceased the XXVII of April 1564 Having issue in their lyfetyme two sonnes Lancelot and Gabriel who died before them in their infancy and Joyce their only daughter and heire being then of the age XII yeres was espoused to Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlcot Knight which Dame Joyce in dutifull remembrance of theis her loving parents hathe erected this monument Anno 1581". (J-Morris, Shropshire Genealogies, vol. 4 p. 1722)”
> I've also adjusted her birthdate. Most online databases have her born in
> 1506, but that would make her age 40 when her first husband died, and for her
> to have gone on and had four children with her second husband while in her
> 40s doesn't seem likely.
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I188757&tree=Welsh
“MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTION: Tenbury> in the church, beneath which are two recumbent figures> "Here lyeth Thomas Acton of Sutton, Esquire who at the age of LXX years departed this lyfe the 2 Jan 1546 and Mary his wyfe Daughter of Sir Thomas Lacon of Willy Knight being of the age LVIII yeres Lykwys desceased the XXVII of April 1564 Having issue in their lyfetyme two sonnes Lancelot and Gabriel who died before them in their infancy and Joyce their only daughter and heire being then of the age XII yeres was espoused to Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlcot Knight which Dame Joyce in dutifull remembrance of theis her loving parents hathe erected this monument Anno 1581". (J-Morris, Shropshire Genealogies, vol. 4 p. 1722)”
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 3:41:01 PM7/17/13
to
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:30:29 AM UTC-7, willac...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Mary Lacon was aged 58 when she died. See:
> Mary Lacon was aged 58 when she died. See:
> “MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTION: Tenbury> in the church, beneath which are two recumbent figures> "Here lyeth Thomas Acton of Sutton, Esquire who at the age of LXX years departed this lyfe the 2 Jan 1546 and Mary his wyfe Daughter of Sir Thomas Lacon of Willy Knight being of the age LVIII yeres Lykwys desceased the XXVII of April 1564 Having issue in their lyfetyme two sonnes Lancelot and Gabriel who died before them in their infancy and Joyce their only daughter and heire being then of the age XII yeres was espoused to Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlcot Knight which Dame Joyce in dutifull remembrance of theis her loving parents hathe erected this monument Anno 1581". (J-Morris, Shropshire Genealogies, vol. 4 p. 1722)”
Thanks for this, Will. It's nice to know the source for Mary's 1506 birthdate. If she was in her 58th year (so just turned age 57) when she died in April 1563 (since we know 1564 is an error on the M.I.), she could've been born in 1506, otherwise it puts her birth in 1505, and age 40 or 41 at her husband's death in January 1546/7. It just seems too old an age for Mary to go on and bear four more children. It's quite possible that Mary's daughter Joyce Acton Lucy in 1581 (the source for the M.I.) was simply in error about her mother's age at her death 18 years prior. I have several 20th-century death certificates from my own family where the informant (usually a family member) was incorrect as to the deceased's age, even on the actual day of the death.
Thanks again & Cheers, -----Brad
Matthew Connolly
Jul 18, 2013, 2:55:53 AM7/18/13
to
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:46:00 PM UTC+3, Brad Verity wrote:
> Thank you, Matthew. I've corrected Mary Lacon's death date and added in her four children with George Vernon. It's interesting that none of those four children (with the possible exception of George) appear to have married.
One additional piece of information - the son Edward Vernon (of Lincoln's Inn) must be the Edward Vernon who was buried at Hodnet on the 20th September 1616, as it fits perfectly within his will/probate dates, and there were no other Edwards in the Hodnet branch. Interestingly, the George 'of Hodnet' (of the 1604 probate) wasn't buried there; and none of Mary Lacon's four Vernon children were baptised there, either. [The daughter Anne requested in her will to be buried at Charlecote.]
> Thank you, Matthew. I've corrected Mary Lacon's death date and added in her four children with George Vernon. It's interesting that none of those four children (with the possible exception of George) appear to have married.
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