Clifford of Frampton-on-Severn

[Gordon Kirkemo]

In a message posted on 20 October 1998, Paul Reed provided two slightly
different ancestries for Isabel de Clifford, the wife of Sir Robert Fitzpayn
(d.1315).

The first source was the VCH of Gloucester 10:143-4. It suggests a descent
from Richard Fitzpons as follows:

1. Richard Fitzpons, brother of Drew, was the father of:
2. Walter de Clifford who was the father of:
3. Richard de Clifford (d.1213) who was the father of:
4. Richard de Clifford who was succeeded by:
5. Sir Hugh de Clifford (d.1254) who was the father of:
6. Sir John de Clifford (d.1292) who was the father of Isabel, wife of Sir
Robert.

The second source was "The House of Clifford from Before the Conquest" by
Hugh Clifford. The key difference presented by Paul is that VCH apparently
presents Sir Hugh (#5 above) as the son of Richard (#4) where the Clifford
book shows Sir Hugh to be the brother of Richard. Paul offered no opinion
regarding the two configurations.

I note also that Paul reported that the Clifford book shows Margaret
Hereward as the wife of Sir John. I did find later discussions in the
Archive that suggest there was a confusion of Margarets and that the book
apparently misplaced a later Margaret for her grandmother IIRC.

I'm hoping someone can either verify, or challenge the line above and
provide an alternative. I'm also hoping someone might have information
concerning the wives of these Cliffords. I do not have easy access to
either the Clifford book or the VCH of Gloucester, so I do not know if the
wives/mothers are identified.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Gordon Kirkemo