Alice Plantagenet born in 1415?
Nigela...@bellsouth.net
First time poster here, though I've been an occasional reader...
Got a query for some of you out there, and it deals with a certain
Alice Plantagenet. I have read on some family trees that there was a
woman by this name who was the daughter of Richard of Conisbrough (b.
1376) and a second wife by the name of Matilda De Clifford (after the
death of Anne Mortimer).
Does anyone know if there is any truth is this? They have her listed as
being born in 1415 (the year of Richard's death) and later marrying a
Thomas Musgrave (b. 1417, and the acknoweldged spouse of Joan
Stapleton).
Hopefully someone out there can help me with this...
mj...@btinternet.com
Nigela...@bellsouth.net schrieb:
Welcome, it's good that you have taken the plunge and posted.
The second marriage of Richard, Earl of Cambridge to Matilda de
Clifford is factual, but they had no known issue. If the trees where
this (or anything else) appears do not give any references or sources,
then as a general rule they shouldn't be given any credence.
Regards
Michael
WJho...@aol.com
Nigela...@bellsouth.net writes:
<< Does anyone know if there is any truth is this? They have her listed as
being born in 1415 (the year of Richard's death) and later marrying a
Thomas Musgrave (b. 1417, and the acknoweldged spouse of Joan
Stapleton). >>
Your red flag should rise at the shear obscurity of this figure. A
great-grandaughter of Edward III, marries a.... nobody?
Will Johnson
Tim Powys-Lybbe
And if you want some references for this:
(a) Confirmed in Complete Peerage Vol 2, p.495, pub 1912
(b) There is no amendment in Compete Peerage Corrigenda, Vol 14, pub
1998
(c) There is no amendment, even, on Chris Phillips' Corrections and
additions to Complete Peerage site on:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/index.shtml
If you are not familiar with Complete Peerage have a look at Leo van de
Pas' site of book evaluations at:
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/bookeval/bookeval.htm
and search for it on the "index by title" as it is a work with many
authors.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
mj...@btinternet.com
Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:
> In message of 9 May, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
>
> > The second marriage of Richard, Earl of Cambridge to Matilda de
> > Clifford is factual, but they had no known issue. If the trees where
> > this (or anything else) appears do not give any references or sources,
> > then as a general rule they shouldn't be given any credence.
>
> And if you want some references for this:
>
> (a) Confirmed in Complete Peerage Vol 2, p.495, pub 1912
Tim
I am currently enjoying a bit of light reading: "Mistress of the
House", by Rosemary Baird, a work examining 17th-18th century women's
roles vis-a-vis grand English houses, into which Caroline Lybbe Powys
makes a fleeting entry (page 54).
MA-R
Douglas Richardson
Richard of York, Earl of Cambridge, died 1415, had no known issue by
his second marriage to Maud Clifford. Maud's heir at her death in 1446
was her nephew, Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford.
For interest's sake, I've copied below an account of Richard of York,
which details his two marriages and his children.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
1. RICHARD OF YORK, Knt., 2nd son, of Conisbrough Castle, Yorkshire,
Almoner of England, Constable of Brimpsfield Castle, born at
Conisbrough Castle, Yorkshire about 20 July 1385. He married about May
1406 (by papal dispensation dated 23 May 1408, they being related in
the 2nd and 4th degrees of kindred) ANNE MORTIMER, elder daughter of
Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of March, 6th Earl of Ulster (descendant
of King Edward III), by Eleanor (descendant of King Henry III),
daughter of Thomas de Holand, Knt., K.G., 2nd Earl of Kent (descendant
of King Edward I) [see MORTIMER 12 for her ancestry]. She was born 27
Dec. 1390, and was heir general in her issue of the Crown of England,
transmitting the right to the Crown to her grandson, Edward IV. They
had two sons, Richard, Knt., K.G. [3rd Duke of York] and Henry, and one
daughter, Isabel. In 1403 he was employed in the Welsh war. He was
knighted 26 June 1406. His wife, Anne, died in Sept. 1411, and was
buried at King's Langley, Hertfordshire. He was created Earl of
Cambridge 1 May 1414. He married (2nd) about 1414 MAUD CLIFFORD,
divorced wife of John Neville, 6th Lord Latimer, and daughter of Thomas
Clifford, 6th Lord Clifford, by Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas de Roos,
Knt., 4th Lord Roos of Helmesley. They had no issue. In 1415 he
conspired Henry le Scrope, Lord Scrope of Masham, and Thomas Grey,
Knt., of Heton to depose King Henry V and set up in his place Edmund
Mortimer, Earl of March (the heir general of King Edward III). SIR
RICHARD OF YORK, Earl of Cambridge, was attainted and beheaded at
Southampton Green 5 August 1415, and was buried in the chapel of
"God's House" at Southampton. His widow, Maud, died testate 26
August 1446, and was buried in the Roche Abbey, Yorkshire.
References:
Sandford, Gen. Hist. of the Kings of England (1677): 366-368. Rymer,
Fœdera 8 (1727): 447 (Richard of York, knight, styled "kinsman" by
King Henry IV of England). Blore, Hist. & Antiq. of Rutland 1(2)
(1811): 15 (Clifford pedigree), 37 (Kent/Holand pedigree), 42 (Mortimer
pedigree). Ellis, Original Letters Ill. of English Hist. 2nd Ser. 1
(1827): 44-49. Dugdale Monasticon Anglicanum 6(3) (1830):
1600-1602. Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855):
118-124. Wright, Feudal Manuals of English Hist. (1872). Burke,
Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 382-384
(sub Mortimer), 434-435 (sub Plantagenet). Birch, Catalogue of Seals
in the British Museum 3 (1894): 389-390 (seal of Maud Clifford,
Countess of Cambridge dated 1430-A demi-angel draped, the wings
expanded, holding before her a large shield of arms: per pale, dex.,
quarterly, 1, 4, FRANCE (modern); 2, 3, ENGLAND, over all in chief a
label of three points [each charged with three torteaux], all within a
bordure charged with ten lions rampant, PLANTAGENET of CAMBRIDGE; sin.,
quarterly, 1, 4, chequy, a fess [CLIFFORD]; 2, 3, six annulets
[VIPONT]). Genealogist n.s. 18 (1902): 182. Papal Regs.: Letters 6
(1904): 132 (Anne styled "cousin and kinswoman" of King Henry IV).
Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 18 (1905): 354-411. C.P.R. 1405-1408 (1907):
173, 392 (instances of Anne styled king's kinswoman"), 409 (Richard
styled "king's kinsman"). D.N.B. 16 (1909): 1061-1062 (biog.
of Richard, Earl of Cambridge: quoting Bishop Stubbs, he 'was a weak
and ungrateful man'). VCH Hampshire 4 (1911): 426-427. C.P. 2
(1912): 494-495 (sub Cambridge); 3 (1913): 246 (sub Clare); 7 (1929):
476-477 (sub Latimer); 12(2) (1959): 181 (sub Ulster). Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 2-5 ("Ricardus
Comes Cantabrigie = Anna filia et heres Edmundi de Mortimer comitis
Merchie"). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 456: 1. Coat of Arms 7
(1962): 122-127 (his arms: Quarterly France modern and England, a
label of York, all within a bordure argent charged with lions rampant
purpure). Paget, Lineage & Anc. of Prince Charles 1 (1977): 21, 24.
Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 2 (1981): 70 (seal of Maud of York,
Countess of Cambridge, dated 1428-A shield of arms, held from behind
by an angel: quarterly, FRANCE modern and ENGLAND, with a label of
three points and a bordure, impaling 1 and 4, checky, a fesse
[CLIFFORD], 2 and 3, six rings [VIPONT]). Moody et al., New Hist. of
Ireland 9 (1984): 170 (chart). Jour. of Medieval Hist. 11 (1985):
61-69. Pugh, Henry V and the Southampton Plot of 1415 (1988):
88-108.
Renia
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Yes and she has been added almost as a token female to the new Dict Nat
Biog. Her claim to fame is that she wrote lots of diaries about touring
the countryside and visiting various houses; the early diaries are a
tad boring, the later ones less so. They were published in 1899.
She lived from 1738-1816 and was born Caroline Girle. Her husband was
Philip Lybbe POWYS where his surname was plain POWYS, but causing her to
be known as Mrs Philip Lybbe Powys and making people, including perhaps
the author of the above book, think wrongly that their surname was Lybbe
Powys.
W David Samuelsen
<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-05/1147213677>
Renia,
if you're talking about the Princess Royal, the 2nd husband, Timothy
Laurence is not a nobody now, unlike 1st husband who is still a relative
nobody. Timothy is Rear Admiral now.
W. David Samuelsen
Renia
Why do you think that is?
WJho...@aol.com
commoners and then having those commeners raised to a high position. There
are examples in the medieval period.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Not quite nobody, one was an Olympic medallist (IIRC) and the other got
to at least James Bond's rank in the navy.
Nigela...@bellsouth.net
all ancestors of Pedro the Cruel out of familytree maker. Luckily, I've
still got connections to the Plantagenets through Edward III's sons
Lionel and John. Thanks for all the information, ladies and
gentlemen--it is appreciated!
Nigel Bradley