Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
Jenny Joyce
from Alfred the Great. Sadly, I think there are major errors in his chart.
An Ahnentafel chart of the information he gave me follows:
1. Thorlongus of the Merse
2. Leofwine of Mercia
3. Alwara Countess of Mercia
4. Edulf of East Anglia
5. Elwina
6. Athelstan Manneson
7. a daughter of King Athelstan
8. Ordgar of East Anglia
10. Aethelred II Duke of Mercia
11. Aethelfleda
14. Aethelstan King of England
22. Alfred the Great
28. Edward the Elder King of England
56. Alfred the Great
The first problem I spotted with this is that according to Alison Weir, King
Aethelstan never married or had children. Then I started looking and most
sources say that Elwina (Aelfwynn) vanished from the records in 918/19 and
is thought to have been locked in a nunnery by Edward the Elder. She is not
known to have married or had children. I then found that there is
considered to be no reliable evidence that Leofwine is the son of Edulf.
Finally, I couldn't find any evidence that Thor Longus was the son of
Leofwine.
But here's where it gets confusing.
Burke's commoners, sub Stansfield of Burley Park, page 757, says "Ethelred,
last king, and first Duke of Mercia, who married Elfleda, daughter of Alfred
the Great, and had a daughter and heir, Elfwinna, who married a nobleman of
Wessex, and was mother of Leofwine, Earl and Duke of Mercia."
Before anyone says anything, I know there were no Dukes of Mercia.
Then I found in the 1847 edition of Burkes Landed Gentry Vol II pp 1285-6
sub Stansfeld of Burley Wood and Jersey. It says that Edulph m Elfwina
(granddaughter of Alfred the Great) and had a son Leofwine who married
Alwara, the daughter of Aethelstan Mannesson by a daughter of Aethelstan the
"Half-King".
I think this article probably was the source of the information my friend
had. I know that Aethelstan the Half-King is not the same person as King
Aethelstan, but people not familiar with the period might not.
I don't have great confidence in this entry in Burkes, as it goes on to make
all sorts of claims that conflict with the information I have (not that I am
arrogant enough to think that I might not have made a mistake), such as that
a granddaughter of Leofric and Godiva was Lucia who married Ivo Tailbois.
The information I have on Lucy, Ivo's wife, is that her mother was the
daughter of William Malet, and that her father's name has not been
preserved.
Another "fact" that I don't agree with is that Lucia's sister Ermenhild
married Richard Goz and was the mother of Hugh Lupus. I have Hugh's mother
as Emma, the daughter of Herluin de Conteville and Herleva of Falaise, and
therefore half-sister of William the Conqueror.
So, in summary, Burkes is probably the "source" of most of the errors, but
no where can I find information that Thor Longus was the son of Leofwine.
Now, I'm more than happy to believe that Burke's has made mistakes, but what
bothers me is that since these 2 publications date from 1838 and 1847, I
would have expected that plenty of time has elapsed for scholars etc to
refute the claims in Burke. But I can't find any such information.
It might be out there on the internet, and I just can't find it, as there
are so many rubbish pedigrees people have posted, which just copy all the
same old errors. It might also be in some source not on the internet. I
am hoping this list can point me to something authoritative so I can show
that to my friend as "evidence", rather than just destroy his claim to be
descended from Alfred the Great, which had thrilled him so much
Or, perhaps I am wrong in thinking that Burke is wrong...
Regards
Jenny Joyce
Leo
This is fascinating and I hope some others with a better knowledge than I
have on this subject will react.
But allow me to give me my five cents worth. I will only comment on the
ancestor list and hopefully that is of assistance.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
See in between, but allow that Earl equals Ealdorman, a title used in
Anglo-Saxon times:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenny Joyce" <jenj...@tpg.com.au>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 8:09 AM
Subject: Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
>A friend of mine excitedly showed me a chart which shows part of his
>descent
> from Alfred the Great. Sadly, I think there are major errors in his
> chart.
> An Ahnentafel chart of the information he gave me follows:
>
>
>
> 1. Thorlongus of the Merse
======The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (edited by Michael Swanton) gives as
children of your 2 and 3 :
1.Northman killed in 1017
2.Leofric, Earl of Mercia, married to THE Lady Godiva
3.Edwin killed in 1039
4.Godwine died before 1057
------------no Thorlongus
>
> 2. Leofwine of Mercia
===The same source calls him ealdorman of the Hwice, died about 1023, he is
recorded without a wife
In the work of Marlyn Lewis on the ancestry of Elizabeth of York gives him
nr.340568 and his wife as unknown
>
> 3. Alwara Countess of Mercia
=====The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle does not mention her. But Turton in his
Plantagenet Ancestry does on page 130 mention her as wife of Leofwine earl
of Mercia
====In the work of Marlyn Lewis on the ancestry of Elizabeth of York, gives
nr.340569 as unknown
>
> 4. Edulf of East Anglia
===== Turton does not give the father of Leofwine a name, but indicates that
this unnamed father of Leofwine
COULD be the son of a Leofric II (no title for him) who in turn is the son
of Alfgar II, earl of Leicester, son of Alfgar I earl of Leicester, son of
Leofric I earl of Leicester
But here it does get interesting. Marlyn Lewis in The Ancestry of Elizabeth
of York, page 1073, gives (your number 2)
nr.340568 Leofwine, Earl of Mercia, 5th Earl of Leicester, died about 1032,
his father is Edulf and his mother Elfwina of Mercia. And Edulf (nr.681,136)
is a son of Ordgar, Earl of Devon
>
> 5. Elwina
=======According to Marlyn Lewis she is nr 681137, page 1172, daughter of
Ethelred, Earl of Mercia and Ethelfleda Princess of England.
>
> 6. Athelstan Manneson
>
> 7. a daughter of King Athelstan
>
> 8. Ordgar of East Anglia
>
> 10. Aethelred II Duke of Mercia
Marlyn Lewis gives him nr.1,362,272, page 1255, calls him Ethelred, Earl of
Mercia, he died in 912, son of Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia
>
> 11. Aethelfleda
====Marlyn Lewis calls her Ethelfleda, Princess of England, died 15 June
919, daughter of King Alfred the Great and Ealswith of Gainsborough
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jenny Joyce
Thanks so much for your reply. I had looked in Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, but
only saw the entry for 1017 about Northman, son of Leofwine, being killed.
After your post I looked again at the book and spotted the charts at the
back.
Sounds like I should consider getting copies of Plantagenet Ancestry and the
Marlyn Lewis books to add to my bookshelves...
Regards
Jenny Joyce
taf
> A friend of mine excitedly showed me a chart which shows part of his descent
> from Alfred the Great. Sadly, I think there are major errors in his chart.
Yes.
> An Ahnentafel chart of the information he gave me follows:
>
> 1. Thorlongus of the Merse
>
> 2. Leofwine of Mercia
There is supposedly a charter at Durham made by Thor Longus, which
names his father as Leofwine. However, given that the charter dates
from the reign of Edgar of Scotland, it is impossible that his father
Leofwine was the Ealdorman of Mercia, who was at least two generations
earlier.
>
> 3. Alwara Countess of Mercia
>
> 4. Edulf of East Anglia
The Liber Eliensis (The Book of Ely): "There was a very wealthy man
called Leofwine, the son of AEthulf" who was known for charity, but
got angry with his mother, smacking her with a log and killing her.
This Leofwine made numerous donations to Ely between 1002 and 1019.
His lands were in Suffolk, Essex and Cambridge. There is no reason to
believe that this man was either the Ealdorman of Mercia, or the
father of Thor Longus.
> 6. Athelstan Manneson
>
> 7. a daughter of King Athelstan
>
> 8. Ordgar of East Anglia
I assume the father-in-law of king Edgar is meant, but no other child
is documented.
> 5. Elwina
>
> 10. Aethelred II Duke of Mercia
>
> 11. Aethelfleda
>
> 22. Alfred the Great
As you indicated in your post, Elwina was sent to a convent by her
uncle, and nothing more is heard of her. Any marriage is fantasy, and
likewise she is here made granddaughter of Alfred and grandmother of
Thor Longus, a contemporary of Edgar of Scotland, son of Margaret, son
of Edward the Exile, son of Edmund Ironside, son of AEthelred, son of
Edgar, son of Edmund, son of Edward, son of Alfred - 7 generations vs
4. Not likely.
>
> 14. Aethelstan King of England
As you pointed out, the King had no children. This should be the Half-
king, who again is much younger. The chronology is again off.
> So, in summary, Burkes is probably the "source" of most of the errors, but
> no where can I find information that Thor Longus was the son of Leofwine.
>
> Now, I'm more than happy to believe that Burke's has made mistakes, but what
> bothers me is that since these 2 publications date from 1838 and 1847, I
> would have expected that plenty of time has elapsed for scholars etc to
> refute the claims in Burke. But I can't find any such information.
The problem is that this material is so ridiculous that most scholars
simply can't be bothered to do a point by point refutation.
> Or, perhaps I am wrong in thinking that Burke is wrong...
No, you're right.
taf
Leo
If you consider buying books, I would not buy the book by Turton, that was
published in 1928 and many regard a lot of the information as insecure. I
would go for the three volumes of Marlyn Lewis. It covers the same grounds
and is more recent and has corrected errors mad by Turton. I am still happy
that I have both, but if you are going to buy stick to Marlyn Lewis.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
>> >A friend of mine excitedly showed me a chart which shows part of his
>> >descent
>> > from Alfred the Great. Sadly, I think there are major errors in his
>> > chart.
>> > An Ahnentafel chart of the information he gave me follows:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 1. Thorlongus of the Merse
>> ======The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (edited by Michael Swanton) gives as
>> children of your 2 and 3 :
>> 1.Northman killed in 1017
>> 2.Leofric, Earl of Mercia, married to THE Lady Godiva
>> 3.Edwin killed in 1039
>> 4.Godwine died before 1057
>> ------------no Thorlongus
>> >
>> > 2. Leofwine of Mercia
>> ===The same source calls him ealdorman of the Hwice, died about 1023,
>> he is
>> recorded without a wife
>> In the work of Marlyn Lewis on the ancestry of Elizabeth of York gives
>> him
>> nr.340568 and his wife as unknown
>> >
>> > 3. Alwara Countess of Mercia
>> =====The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle does not mention her. But Turton in his
>> Plantagenet Ancestry does on page 130 mention her as wife of Leofwine
>> earl
>> of Mercia
>> ====In the work of Marlyn Lewis on the ancestry of Elizabeth of York,
>> gives
>> nr.340569 as unknown
>> >
>> > 4. Edulf of East Anglia
>> ===== Turton does not give the father of Leofwine a name, but indicates
>> that
>> this unnamed father of Leofwine
>> COULD be the son of a Leofric II (no title for him) who in turn is the
>> son
>> of Alfgar II, earl of Leicester, son of Alfgar I earl of Leicester, son
>> of
>> Leofric I earl of Leicester
>>
>> But here it does get interesting. Marlyn Lewis in The Ancestry of
>> Elizabeth
>> of York, page 1073, gives (your number 2)
>> nr.340568 Leofwine, Earl of Mercia, 5th Earl of Leicester, died about
>> 1032,
>> his father is Edulf and his mother Elfwina of Mercia. And Edulf
>> (nr.681,136)
>> is a son of Ordgar, Earl of Devon
>> >
>> > 5. Elwina
>> =======According to Marlyn Lewis she is nr 681137, page 1172, daughter
>> of
>> Ethelred, Earl of Mercia and Ethelfleda Princess of England.
>> >
>>
>> > 6. Athelstan Manneson
>> >
>> > 7. a daughter of King Athelstan
>> >
>> > 8. Ordgar of East Anglia
>> >
>> > 10. Aethelred II Duke of Mercia
>> Marlyn Lewis gives him nr.1,362,272, page 1255, calls him Ethelred,
>> Earl of
>> Mercia, he died in 912, son of Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia
>> >
>>
>> > 11. Aethelfleda
>> ====Marlyn Lewis calls her Ethelfleda, Princess of England, died 15
>> June
>> 919, daughter of King Alfred the Great and Ealswith of Gainsborough
>> >
>> > 14. Aethelstan King of England
>> >
>> > 22. Alfred the Great
>> >
>> > 28. Edward the Elder King of England
>> >
>> > 56. Alfred the Great
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The first problem I spotted with this is that according to Alison
>> Weir,
>> > King
>> > Aethelstan never married or had children. Then I started looking and
>> most
>> > sources say that Elwina (Aelfwynn) vanished from the records in
>> 918/19 and
>> > is thought to have been locked in a nunnery by Edward the Elder. She
>> is
>> > not
>> > known to have married or had children. I then found that there is
>> > considered to be no reliable evidence that Leofwine is the son of
>> Edulf.
>> > Finally, I couldn't find any evidence that Thor Longus was the son of
>> > Leofwine.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So, in summary, Burkes is probably the "source" of most of the
>> errors, but
>> > no where can I find information that Thor Longus was the son of
>> Leofwine.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Now, I'm more than happy to believe that Burke's has made mistakes,
>> but
>> > what
>> > bothers me is that since these 2 publications date from 1838 and
>> 1847, I
>> > would have expected that plenty of time has elapsed for scholars etc
>> to
>> > refute the claims in Burke. But I can't find any such information.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It might be out there on the internet, and I just can't find it, as
>> there
>> > are so many rubbish pedigrees people have posted, which just copy all
>> the
>> > same old errors. It might also be in some source not on the
>> internet. I
>> > am hoping this list can point me to something authoritative so I can
>> show
>> > that to my friend as "evidence", rather than just destroy his claim
>> to be
>> > descended from Alfred the Great, which had thrilled him so much
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Or, perhaps I am wrong in thinking that Burke is wrong...
>> >
>> >
>> >
Hovite
> Marlyn Lewis gives him nr.1,362,272, page 1255, calls him Ethelred, Earl of
> Mercia, he died in 912, son of Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia
>
Is that THE Hugh the Great, Count of Paris?
Ethelred's parentage is unknown.
Hovite
> Before anyone says anything, I know there were no Dukes of Mercia.
>
In documents written in Latin, dux was generally used to translate
Anglo-Saxon ealdorman.
Hovite
> Hi Leo,
>
> Thanks so much for your reply. I had looked in Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, but
> only saw the entry for 1017 about Northman, son of Leofwine, being killed.
> After your post I looked again at the book and spotted the charts at the
> back.
>
> Sounds like I should consider getting copies of Plantagenet Ancestry and the
> Marlyn Lewis books to add to my bookshelves...
>
> Regards
> Jenny Joyce
>
For the Anglo-Saxon period, try http://www.pase.ac.uk/
(But that is an uncritical compilation.)
taf
There have been several attempts to link him with the Mercian royal
house, and in particular with Burgred of Mercia, his wife's uncle by
marriage. None of these attempts are anything but guesswork.
Certainly, though, he was Anglo-Saxon and the chances of him being son
of someone named Hugh, or of a Hugh being Ealdorman of Mercia at this
time, are basically nil.
taf
taf
Peter Stewart
"Hovite" <paulv...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0f256ace-7a8a-4128...@y36g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On May 3, 12:08 am, "Leo" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Marlyn Lewis gives him nr.1,362,272, page 1255, calls him Ethelred,
> > Earl of Mercia, he died in 912, son of Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia
> >
> Is that THE Hugh the Great, Count of Paris?
The anachronism is so extreme that this can't very well be Hugo Magnus,
count of Paris & duke of the Franks, even in the imagination of whoever
invented a personage called "Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia".
Hugo Magnus married his Anglo-Saxon wife Eadhild in 926; his first wife's
mother was not born until ca 871 or later (from parents married in 870), so
that he could not possibly have had a son who died as an adult in 912.
A useful basic test for the historicity of any individual is to do a simple
Google search - if the first page of results are all from amateur genealogy
sites, then there's a fair chance that the person is fictitious.
Peter Stewart
Kay Allen
I hate to contradict you but Marlyn Lewis' book is so full of correctable errors, that if they were removed, the books would look like swiss cheese.
K
________________________________
From: Leo <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
To: Jenny Joyce <jenj...@tpg.com.au>; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 8:12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
Dear Jenny,
If you consider buying books, I would not buy the book by Turton, that was
published in 1928 and many regard a lot of the information as insecure. I
would go for the three volumes of Marlyn Lewis. It covers the same grounds
and is more recent and has corrected errors mad by Turton. I am still happy
that I have both, but if you are going to buy stick to Marlyn Lewis.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenny Joyce" <jenj...@tpg.com.au>
To: "'Leo'" <leov...@netspeed.com.au>; <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
> Hi Leo,
>
> Thanks so much for your reply. I had looked in Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, but
> only saw the entry for 1017 about Northman, son of Leofwine, being killed.
> After your post I looked again at the book and spotted the charts at the
> back.
>
> Sounds like I should consider getting copies of Plantagenet Ancestry and
> the
> Marlyn Lewis books to add to my bookshelves...
>
> Regards
> Jenny Joyce
>
>> Marlyn Lewis gives him nr.1,362,272, page 1255, calls him Ethelred,
>> Earl of
>> Mercia, he died in 912, son of Hugh the Great, Earl of Mercia
>> >
>>
>> > Before anyone says anything, I know there were no Dukes of Mercia.
>> >
>> >
>> >
Leo
I understand that Marlyn Lewis improved Turton's work a great deal, then Turton is much worse than what I was told to believe a long time ago. A pity we can't have a website where corrections can be recorded, which would improve the knowledge of Marlyn's book.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Kay Allen
To: Leo
Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
Leo,
I hate to contradict you but Marlyn Lewis' book is so full of correctable errors, that if they were removed, the books would look like swiss cheese.
K
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hovite
> > Ethelred's parentage is unknown.
>
> There have been several attempts to link him with the Mercian royal
> house, and in particular with Burgred of Mercia,
Burgred's parentage is also unknown, and during this period Mercia
seems to have had at least three rival alliterative lineages (B, C,
W), rather than one royal family. Ethelred II may have been related to
any of these, or (more probably) none. The B-group possibly contains
Kings Baldred {fl. 681}, Berthwald {fl. 685}, Beonred {757}, Berhtric
{in Wessex, 786-802}, Beornwulf {823-825}, Baldred {in Kent, 823-825},
Berhtwulf {840-852}, and Burgred {853-874}. Of these, Berthwald is
reputed to have been a nephew of Ethelred I {675-704}.
Jenny Joyce
>
> There is supposedly a charter at Durham made by Thor Longus, which
> names his father as Leofwine. However, given that the charter dates
> from the reign of Edgar of Scotland, it is impossible that his father
> Leofwine was the Ealdorman of Mercia, who was at least two generations
> earlier.
Regards
Jenny
P.S. Thanks for all the help you've been giving
Jenny Joyce
wjho...@aol.com
We can Leo of course "have" a website for corrections to this book.
But is there enough interested in such a thing?
I note that in the first few months, I have a few dozen corrections to Plantagenet Ancestry submit, but since then, I think I've only added maybe two more in the past three years or so.
Will Johnson
Jenny Joyce
news philosophically. He said it didn't matter - it was still interesting
finding out about that period in history, and that there was no point in
ancestor collecting for its own sake
Regards
Jenny Joyce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-medieval-
> bou...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of wjho...@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 4 May 2010 12:45 PM
> To: leov...@netspeed.com.au; all...@pacbell.net
> Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Erroneous claims of descent from King Alfred
>
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-
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