Wem and Oversley Boteler Update

[butlergrt]

Good Afternoon All,
This is a rough draft and any and all are asked to comment and improve
this lineage in part starting with Ralph Boteler and Maud Pantolph thru
1521 and Phillip Boteler. I am working on the overhaul of Wem and
Oversley, Sudeley, Woodhall and Badmonton/minton Botelers. I know this
doesn't jar with The Visitations and some sights but the land records and
other records show a different story, even base logic shows otherwise.
Thank You for any and all who wish to contribute.

A note: The visitation of Boteler of Woodhall,App.I Page 111 shows:
William married to Margaret Fitzalan, dau. of Richard, Earl of Arundell as
having 2 sons William and Ralph, Kt.,Lord of Woodhall married to
Hawise,dau. and heir to Richard, son of Hugh Gobion. Their son Sir Ralph
Boteler,Kt. married to Maude, da. to Sir Phillip Marmion,Kt. It didn't
happen that way as I see it. As you can see, it the way the Visitations
show as opposed to records, Williams grandaughter Maude Marmion died 9
years after he was born. Don't think so!!!

Ralph Boteler of Oversley d. 1/1278, married
Maud Pantulf, d. 6/1289, dau. and heir of William Pantolph and Hawise
Fitzwarin. She married 2nd Walter de Hopton, d. 1283
sons of Ralph and Maud:
1.William: b.1245-d.1283, married Angharad ap Griffith ap Madoc ap
Maelor,Wem-Oversley line
2. Ralph Boteler, Married Matilda/Maud de Marmion, dau. of Sir Philip de
Marmion of Tamworth castle and Joan de Kilpeck, dau. of Hugh
Their son:
Ralph Boteler of Norbury, b. 1277
married 1300.
Hawise Gobion, b. 1282, dau. and heir of Richard, son of Hugh Gobion of
Higham Gobion. Ralph moved to Woodhall 1302, and when he died held the
manor of Badminton and 1/2 manor of Middleton,Warwickshire.
Sons:
1. John Boteler b. 1301
married:
Joan d'Argentine
son: Edward Boteler, b. 7/20/1337-d.1413, a priest, his inheritance of
Pulverbatch thru his Grt.Aunt Joan de Kilpeck went thru him to his cousin,
Sir Phillip Boteler, of Woodhall on his death.
It is this Edward of the same time frame same family with two Williams of
the same that, has/is causing confusion about the priest connection and or
line.
2nd son of Ralph Boteler and Hawise:
William Boteler, b. 1303
married: Elizabeth d'Argentine,
marri3ed 2nd,
Elizabeth de Holland,
daughters:
Alice Boteler, b.1340
Elizabeth Boteler, b.1345-d.1411, buried, Brothers of The Hloy Cross,
London, England
3rd son of Ralph Boteler and Hawise:
Ralph Boteler b. 1305
married:
Katherine Pelatoyt, dau. of Sir Phillip Pelatoyt and Isabel
Son:
Phillip Boteler b. 1325-d. 1393
his son.
Phillip Boteler, b.1363-d.1393
married:
Elizabeth or Isabel
Son:
Phillip Boteler, b.1388-d.11/6/1421 Woodhall
Married:
Elizabeth Cockayne of Bury,Hatley,Beds., dau. of John Cockayne, Baron of
Exchequer and Edith Gray.
Phillip Boteler was the ward of John Cockayne.
Son:
Phillip Boteler, b.8/15/1415-d.7/18/1453
married: Isabel Willoughby, dau, of Sir Hugh Willoughby and Margaret de
Freville of Tamworth.
2 notes: Phillip Boteler also was a ward of Sir Hugh Willoughby as was his
father a ward, and his mother-in-law was his ancestor thru the marriage of
Maud de Marmion's sister Joan de kilpeck who's daughter Mazera married
Alexander de Freville who held 1/2 Tamworth manor and Tamworth castle,
later the Baldwins, about 100 years earlier.They like keeping the assets
in the family I would say.
So much for now. Thanks for critique and additions.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[mj...@btinternet.com]

Elizabeth Cokayne, wife of Philip Butler, was secondly the wife of Sir
Lawrence Cheyney.

What do you mean when you say "his [Philip 1415-1453] mother-in-law was
his ancestor thru the marriage of Maud de Marmion's sister..."?

MAR

[butlergrt]

Good Morning,
Sorry the wording was poor. It should have been they shared a common
ancestor. Phillip Boteler who married Isabel Willoughby, were cousins thru
her mother Margaret Freville, wife of Sir Hugh Willoughby. See descent
below.
Phillip Marmion of Tamworth, Sheriff of Warwickshire and m1. Joan de
Kilpeck had 3 dau.
2 of which we will deal with: Maud who married Ralph Boteler and Mazera
who married Ralph de Cromwell. Ralph Boteler and Maud you have seen.
So it goes:
Phillip Marmion mar. Joan de Kilpeck dau. of Hugh
Mazera Marmiom mar. Ralph de Cromwell, dau.
Joan de Cromwell mar. Sir Alexander de Freville Lord of Tamworth,Kings
Champion, son
Baldwin Freville mar.? d.c. 1344, Plague? son,
Baldwin Freville mar. Elizabeth Montfort, son,
Sir Baldwin Freville mar. Joyce Botetourt, dau. of John Botetourt, son,
Baldwin Freville mar. Johanna Green, dau. of Sir Thomas Green, dau.,
Margaret Freville mar. Sir Hugh Willoughby, dau.,
Isabel Willoughby mar. Phillip Boteler.
I have found that ALL the Boteler families, England, Wales, Scotland and
Ireland ,all married and inter-married with about 12 main families back
and forth over a period of about 500 years, it was not until about the
year 1620 or so that this changed.
I hope this is more clear.

[mj...@btinternet.com]

Thanks Emmett - that is doubly interesting.

Despite the prohibitions on parties marrying within the prohibited
degrees, if one can trace ancestry far enough it is amazing how much
intermarriage there actually was.

Cheers

Michael

[butlergrt]

Hello Michael,
Yes it is true but the Line of Ralph Boteler and Maud Marmion get actually
more complicated after Phillip Boteler and Isabel Willoughby, the Drurys
and the Darcys marry within 3 generations, the Belknap that married into
Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley family, also from the line of Wem and
Oversley, married back indirectly again into the Woodhall Boteler family,
I believe it was all about land and money for the most part and keeping it
within the family, regardless of the prohibition of marrying within
certain degrees of kinship. There is a potential as to why in some of the
visitations, there are missing links and certain family members are not
mentioned, etc..

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/1/05 5:22:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
butl...@aol.com writes:

<< Phillip Marmion mar. Joan de Kilpeck dau. of Hugh
Mazera Marmiom mar. Ralph de Cromwell, dau.
Joan de Cromwell mar. Sir Alexander de Freville Lord of Tamworth,Kings
Champion, son
Baldwin Freville mar.? d.c. 1344, Plague? son,
Baldwin Freville mar. Elizabeth Montfort, son,
Sir Baldwin Freville mar. Joyce Botetourt, dau. of John Botetourt, son,
Baldwin Freville mar. Johanna Green, dau. of Sir Thomas Green, dau.,
Margaret Freville mar. Sir Hugh Willoughby, dau.,
Isabel Willoughby mar. Phillip Boteler. >>

For the Baldwin who you have married to Johannah Green, there is an alternate
wife, Maud le Scrope
This Baldwin was baptised 20 Nov 1368 Northfield Church, just to give at
least one date in here, and died in 1401

Will Johnson

[lostc...@yahoo.com]

Do you have any information on the line of William Butler of Wem &
Oversley, 1st Lord, 11 June 1274-c.14 Sep 1334? He was the brother of
Ralph who married Maud/Matilda de Marmion. Thank you, Bronwen

[Cristopher Nash]

You may have seen long&lively speculation here between 2002 and 2004
re the ancestry of Clemence le Boteler, wife of Nicholas de Verdun
(who d. 1231). I wonder whether you may have run into any sign of
Phillip le Boteler who appears to have been her father?

Thanks for any thoughts!

Cris

[J. Sardina]

Hello,

Coming back to this very old posting, is there more information about Alice Boteler mentioned above?

Would this be the one said to have married one Nicholas de Sandford, ancestor of the Sandfords of the Isle of Up Rossall?

j. Sardina