Vladimir I and Anna of Byzance
Serban Marin
I don't think that there could be something like "Dobronegra", and not a
connection with the idea of blackness at all. What should the Latin "niger"
have in common with a Slavonic denomination? The Slav toponymic presents a
lot of "blackness", expressed by "crn" [tzrn], "cern" [tche:rn], "cjorn"
[tchjorn] etc.: Crna Gora, Cernowcy, or even the character from Bregovic's
"Undergound" movie, Petr Popara-Crni!
This kind of merging between a Latin and a Slavonic words could be created
only in a mixed population milieu (and believe me, cause I am Romanian!].
Serban Marin,
Bucharest, Romania,
sma...@dnt.ro
> I am currious about Dobronega's ancestry, whether or not she was
> Anna's daughter. Does anyone have reliable information about her?
>
> Janko, you may be able to explain the meaning of Dobronega's name. Is
> it possible that she was actually called "Dobronegra?" If so, does this
> suggest that her mother was from a group of people whom the Kievan Rus
> considered to be non-white?
>
> Shawn
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
>
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> After the fresco in the apse of cathedral Hagia Sophia in Kiev, we know
> Jaroslav the Wise has five daughters : Anastasija m Andras I of
> Hungary, Anna m Henri I of France, Elisaveta m Harald III of Norway and
> Sven II of Denmark.
IIRC the supposed second marriage of Elisaveta is now regarded as error.
> Do you think Agafja m Edward of England could be
> the fourth ?
I would say exactly that. She *could* be. Or could be not.
If she was, we can try to add Dobronega/Maria as fifth (actually first)
and have a full set.
BTW, anyone knows where description of this fresco was published? I
would like to take a look. And does it suggests that Jaroslav and
Ingegerda had five daughters, or just that Jaroslav had?
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> Dear Shawn,
>
> I don't think that there could be something like "Dobronegra", and not a
> connection with the idea of blackness at all.
But the girl's name was "Dobronega", not "Dobronegra" And "nega" is
a valid Slavic word, which indeed is not connected with the idea of
blackness at all.
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> Does anyone know of any early source materials which document (1)
> descendants of St. Vladimir from his wife Anna of Byzantium, and (2)
> the mother and ancestry of Dobronega?
I think the only clue in the early sources is the statement of
Russian "Tale of bygone years" that Kazimierz married Yaroslav's
sister. The contemporary western sources refer to her only with
such vague words as "noble russian lady" or "daughter of russian
king". IIRC, Jan Dlugosz states that she was daughter of Vladimir
and Anne, but he is a 15th century author, so his authority is
questionable.
Andrew S. Kalinkin
A Tsar Is Born
"Janko Pavsic" <janko_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:95q0a3$2jh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Sorry, I did not look the stemma before mailing. Yes I talk about Anna,
> wife of Vladimir and daughter of Romanos II und Theophano. For the wife
> of Konstantinos VII, you wrote Likapinos. Is it the proper
> translitteration from that Greek name ?
In English we call her Helena Lecapena.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsar...@hotmail.com
Janko Pavsic
"A Tsar Is Born" <ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
>
> In English we call her Helena Lecapena.
>
> Jean Coeur de Lapin
> atsar...@hotmail.com
>
Lécapène (just try to reproduce the sound from Greek language). In
recent and more sophisticated publications ( Nos ancêtres de
l'Antiquité, from Christian Settipani for example), we try to be more
carefull with international translitteration standards. For russian
language, I use the translitteration table proposed in the book of
Dimitri Donskoi but for Greek, I did not find table. Few years ago in
french, you read Paléologue for man woman and family. Now we are more
respectuous (Palaiologos, Palaiologina, Palaiologoi). My question is,
what is the best orthograph for Lekapene in latin alphabetical system ?
Janko Pavsic
buel...@my-deja.com
marriage to Anna. The question for me is, who is Jaroslav's mother?
Peter Buell-Fay
In article <95pqq7$t4s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Janko Pavsic <janko_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> How many children are certainly born from Vladimir I of Kiev and Anna
> of Byzance, daughter of emperor Konstantinos VII and Helena Lekapen
> (aina ?). At least the unnamed wife of Bernhard II of Nordmark, I
> think. What's about Dobronega/Maria, wife of Kasimir I, king of Poland
>
> Janko Pavsic
> --
Janko Pavsic
question. They are Vladimir I and Rogneda of Polotsk. (Did I miss
something ?)
Janko Pavsic
In article <95tu6f$dcf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Do you think Agafja m Edward of England could be the fourth ?
A couple of months ago you mentioned an article on this question
due to appear in a French-Canadian journal in Jan. Has this now
come to pass (are you now free to provide details)?
taf
Janko Pavsic
of Vladimir and unidentified wife or mistress
In article <3A81CE...@cityline.ru>,
--
Janko Pavsic
is OK now. For your question: yes I am free now. I imagine you have
another one ?
Janko
In article <3A82DA99...@interfold.com>,
--
Omega
H = I
that makes is Likapinos
in English for because phonetically i = e the name finishes
Lekapenos, Lekapene being the plural (Likapinoi)
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
Janko Pavsic
Thanks a lot for those informations. One more question. For woman,
everytime we replace "os" by "aina", or some exceptions exist ?
Janko Pavsic
In article <m5Dg6.4$_R6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net>,
--
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> About Dobronega Maria. All modern scholars agree to make her daughter
> of Vladimir and unidentified wife or mistress
I have been told (by an extremely unreliable source) that those
who "know" the polish documents definitively assign her to
Jaroslav. When asked what these documents were, the response
could be summarized as, "If you knew anything about medieval
history, I wouldn't have to tell you, so I won't." Take that for
what it's worth.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
[regarding a soon to be published Agatha article]
> We have some little technical problems with the printing but everything
> is OK now. For your question: yes I am free now. I imagine you have
> another one ?
Two actually. What is the nature of the article (review,
presentation of new evidence, or reinterpretation of evidence
already in play)? If one of the latter two, what is the new
evidence, and/or what is the thrust of the argument?
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> BTW, anyone knows where description of this fresco was published? I
> would like to take a look. And does it suggests that Jaroslav and
> Ingegerda had five daughters, or just that Jaroslav had?
A scetch of the reconstructed fresco recently appeared in the New
England Historical and Genealogical Register, (April, 1998), in a
article which cites:
L. V. Lazarev, "Gruppovoi portret semiestva Iaroslava" in his
Russkaia srednevekovaia zhivopis': Stat'i i issledovaniia,
(Moscow, Nauka: 1970), 27-54
He inclused photographic reproductions of some of the original
images, apparently found in Lazarev.
taf
Janko Pavsic
author try to find all possible comon origin for some Agatha's (new
evidence concerning Agatha of Lorraine for example)in the XIth. It is
more a reinterpretation of evidence for the wife of the Aetheling. It's
imposible to find a solution in accordance with all documents on
Agatha's origin. On another way, nobody has interest to lie. That means
than one document is the result of missunderstanding of the other one.
The author make the exercise in both ways and that works just on one
way. For russian origin, the solution fit with documents (sister of
Hungarian queen) and onomastic (Alexander, Agatha, David, Christine,
Marguerite, and Philipe). The german solution absolutely don't fit with
names in descent of Agatha (Bruno Liudolf, Otto, Gertrude, Ekbert,
Hugo), and no more with documents (germanus for brother means "from the
same father and mother"). Another thing, a nickname of two kings
Alexander I of Scotland and possibly Philippe I of France could be
understood has a signal for real or fictious origin. Do you read
french ?
Janko Pavsic
In article <3A8387D1...@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
--
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> It's hard to explain in few words because the article is 22 pages.
Thanks for the summary.
> Do you read french ?
Yes. The question is how well I understand what I read, and that
usually depends on the writing style.
Todd
Omega
"OS" is legally correct in names ending in OS
There are names Ending in "HS".
Than, the last "S" is removed. ONASIS -->ONASI
In Free speech, OS becomes OU (Palaiologos ---> Palaiologou)
The ending "AINA" or "HNA" is used to attach a Married women (which
traditionally had her own family name) to her husband. female.
The problem started some 1000 years ago, when Historians talking about a
lady, referred to her as for example Palaiologina (or Doukaina). The
following years, European Historians/travellers, assume that these new
different names are the "female" names. The end result is that (because it
was assumed to be the female version of a name) it finished up as the names
for daughters as well, which is not correct.
Nobody ever heard Mrs Palaologos calling herself Palaiologina, and Nobody
ever witness anyone introducing her as Palaiologina.
That's a clear proof to any intelligent person that her name was Mrs
Palaiologos.
You can argue with God, he will lessen, but you can not argue with
Historians, especially if the work in a University.
Janko Pavsic
orthograph for women to. (Konstantinos Skleros, Theophano Skleros,
Bardas Phokas, Sophia Phokas). On another way, after me, it's not
efficient to use various spelling if you write in German, French or
English. Formerly in French we wrote Paléologue. In Christian Settipani
book, I discover a better spelling Palaiologos. But in english you
wrote Palaologos. That's why I asked you about standards, like for
Russian language. Thank you for those informations; I try to write in
accordance with facts.
In article <OjNg6.6$%W6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net>,
--
Janko Pavsic
Genealogists makes her daughter of Vladimir (and because she's a bit
young, with the last "liaison" of Vladimir) and Anna of Byzance. Now if
some Polish has details for a final solution, I just want to see. I
know historical sources for Slovenija but for Poland...
Janko Pavsic
In article <3A83873D...@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
--
Rafal T. Prinke
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
> > About Dobronega Maria. All modern scholars agree to make her daughter
> > of Vladimir and unidentified wife or mistress
>
> I have been told (by an extremely unreliable source) that those
> who "know" the polish documents definitively assign her to
> Jaroslav. When asked what these documents were, the response
> could be summarized as, "If you knew anything about medieval
> history, I wouldn't have to tell you, so I won't." Take that for
> what it's worth.
It is not worth much. I have never seen a Polish text assigning
her to Jaroslav as his daughter. I do not have Jasinski at hand
- just a copy of the table from his book, where she is made
a daughter of Vladimir and b. ca 1012-1016.
Balzer in his monumental work says the same and quotes dozens
of documents, but relying on three: Gallus and Saxo, who both
call her a Ruthenian princess without any other details,
and Nestor who calls her explicitely "a sister of Jaroslav".
All the later documents either borrowed the information from
Nestor (most Ruthenian latopises) or can be proved wrong
(eg. the Hungarian-Polish Chronicle which makes her
a Hungarian princess).
As Andrew Kalinkin already said:
> Jan Dlugosz states that she was daughter of Vladimir
> and Anne, but he is a 15th century author, so his authority is
> questionable
Balzer comments that it was obviously his guesswork but
that he was probably right for chronological reasons
(an earlier wife would make Dobronega too old for Kazimierz).
Some later sources call her Dobrogniewa and Dambrowka
but as the name Dobronega is known in Poland at the time,
it is probably correct. She is also given the second name
of Maria which first appears in a false document so
is suspect. Dlugosz thought it was her original name
and she was baptised as Dobronega but Balzer points out
that it should have been the other way round, if it
is true at all.
I'll try to check Jasinski on Monday.
Best regards,
Rafal
Janko Pavsic
That's the same problem for all Rurik dynasty. If we want to make
shure, no choice, we must find bodies, do DNA tests to obtain results
for authentic genealogy.
Janko Pavsic
In article <3A8430D0...@amu.edu.pl>,
--
Omega
Settipani is French (I think), he writes in French, and of course he uses
the French Version/spelling of the name. There is nothing wrong with that.
I have also noticed that Mr Settipani uses most Greek words correctly (he
uses New Greek, a Version of Greek that was adopted some 25 years ago).
If I did write Palaologos, than MY apologies, it should be Palaiologos.
Name discrepancies only exist between Greek and French, and Greek and
English.
In all other languages, especially in German, you read what you write and
spelling problems are very rare..
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Janko Pavsic" <janko_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9617a0$6l4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> A scetch of the reconstructed fresco recently appeared in the New
> England Historical and Genealogical Register, (April, 1998), in a
> article which cites:
>
> L. V. Lazarev, "Gruppovoi portret semiestva Iaroslava" in his
> Russkaia srednevekovaia zhivopis': Stat'i i issledovaniia,
> (Moscow, Nauka: 1970), 27-54
Thank you for the reference. Another book to add to already
long wish list <g>
Andrew
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> After modern scholars, Dobronega was to old to be daughter of Jaroslav.
I don't see any chronological problem in making Dobronega a daughter
of Jaroslav. I think there is no direct evidence about her age and we
can only get some clues from the age of her husband (born 1016) and
from marriage date (Nestor puts it on 1043, but his chronology isn't
very reliable, and many historians move it back to circa 1038/39).
The eldest daughter of Jaroslav and Ingegarda, born say between
Vladimir(1020) and Izyaslav(1024), would fit ideally. If she was
older, born say in early 1010s (I don't think it is reasonable to
push her birthdate any further back), she could be Jaroslav's
daughter from the first marriage.
> Genealogists makes her daughter of Vladimir (and because she's a bit
> young, with the last "liaison" of Vladimir) and Anna of Byzance.
Note that "liaison" with Anna was not the last marriage of Vladimir.
Anna died in 1011. When in 1018 Boleslaw entered Kiev, he (according
to Thietmar) captured Vladimir's widow. This woman may be or may be
not a daughter of Kuno von Oenningen and Richlint (that old theory
of Baumgarten had been recently challenged in russian literature),
but there is no reason to doubt her existance. It looks much more
plausible that if Dobronega was Vladimir's daughter after all, she
was born from this union and not by Anna.
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> For russian origin, the solution fit with documents (sister of
> Hungarian queen) and onomastic (Alexander, Agatha, David, Christine,
> Marguerite, and Philipe). The german solution absolutely don't fit with
> names in descent of Agatha (Bruno Liudolf, Otto, Gertrude, Ekbert,
> Hugo),
This isn't fair... Here the list of Agatha's ancestors by "german"
theory is compared with an arbitrary selection of relatives from
the russian one. Let's look at the list of Agatha's ancestors
(by russian theory) instead:
George, Irina (or Anna), Vasily, Anastasia, Helena, Olaf, Astrid,
Erik, Sigrid ...
This list doesn't look any better than the german. Can't recall
anyone with these names among Agatha's immediate descendants.
OTOH, only one of the listed "Russian" names (David) was used
among pre-tatar Rurikids. It is also interesting that the usage
of the name Agafia (Agatha) was limited to the descendants of
Vladimir Monomakh. Is this a coincindence? Or maybe this name
was introduced into family only through Vladimir's Greek mother?
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> It is not worth much. I have never seen a Polish text assigning
> her to Jaroslav as his daughter. I do not have Jasinski at hand
> - just a copy of the table from his book, where she is made
> a daughter of Vladimir and b. ca 1012-1016.
I checked the latest russian edition of Gall's chronicle. It has
a large footnote about Dobronega. No "documents" that make her
Jaroslav's daughter are mentioned (I doubt that anything like it
exists). What *is* mentioned is that some historians think that
she is more probably Jaroslav's daughter than Vladimir's. Their
arguments, as I understand, are based entirely on chronology.
FWIW, here are the references listed (sorry for the lack of
diacritics):
S. Ketrzynski. Na margibesie "genealogii Piastow" // Przeglad
Historyczny. 1930-1931. Vol.29.
S. Ketrzynski. Polska w X-XI w. Warszawa,1961.
W. Kowalenko. Kazimierz Odnowieciel // Slownik starozytnosci
slowianskich. Vol.II part 2. Krakow,1967.
> Balzer in his monumental work says the same and quotes dozens
> of documents, but relying on three: Gallus and Saxo, who both
> call her a Ruthenian princess without any other details,
> and Nestor who calls her explicitely "a sister of Jaroslav".
> All the later documents either borrowed the information from
> Nestor (most Ruthenian latopises) or can be proved wrong
> (eg. the Hungarian-Polish Chronicle which makes her
> a Hungarian princess).
I am curious: did anyone try to analyze the statement of "Chronica
Poloniae maioris" that calls her a daughter of prince Roman. In the
russian translation I have it is dismissed out of hand as an obvious
error, but maybe it is not so? (my pet theory).
> As Andrew Kalinkin already said:
>
> > Jan Dlugosz states that she was daughter of Vladimir
> > and Anne, but he is a 15th century author, so his authority is
> > questionable
>
> Balzer comments that it was obviously his guesswork but
> that he was probably right for chronological reasons
> (an earlier wife would make Dobronega too old for Kazimierz).
Certainly, but even with Anna chronlogical difficulties remain.
A mother born in early 960s for the woman married circa 1040
doesn't look like a very good chronology for me.
> Some later sources call her Dobrogniewa and Dambrowka
> but as the name Dobronega is known in Poland at the time,
> it is probably correct. She is also given the second name
> of Maria which first appears in a false document so
> is suspect. Dlugosz thought it was her original name
> and she was baptised as Dobronega but Balzer points out
> that it should have been the other way round, if it
> is true at all.
Was ever St. Dobronega? I never heard of any, but my knowledge
in this area is very limited.
> I'll try to check Jasinski on Monday.
Please do.
> Best regards,
>
> Rafal
Andrew
Omega
to translate the word as "Thorn", but the Greek word for thorn is spelled
differently. The name Agatha (or more accurately, Agathia) is the female
name of the name/word "Agathos". Agathos translates "simple", "Light in
the head", "Innocent". You will find a substantial number of Monks,
Bishops, Priests, etc called Agathos, re-named after joining the Priesthood
.
Jesus, allegedly, said numerous times:
"Makarioi oi ptochoi to pneumatoi dioti auton esti i vasilia ton ouranon".
Which roughly translates to:
" Blessed are the ones that are "simple" because to them belongs the Kingdom
of God"
So, it's not impossible that the name was introduced by the Greeks.
However, it is equally possible that it was introduced by Russian
Christians.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Andrew S. Kalinkin" <kali...@cityline.ru> wrote in message
news:3A848E...@cityline.ru...
Janko Pavsic
onomastic, your have no obligation to prove that all ancestors names
will be use in the descent (that's why I do not need to find some
Jaroslav of Scotland or Vladimir, Irina or Rurik), That is the first
point. In fact you must prove than all names you find in the descent
without explanation, must comes from the family of the person with the
unknow origin. Or at least (because for some family, we miss documents
and individuals) you must find those names in the close descent of that
family. An example for that is the name of David. No brother or
ancestors of Agafja are named David but you find David in the descent
of 4 children of Jaroslav; that's a circumstantial proof. With that
system, I explain in the descent of Agatha, the follow names (Agatha,
Alexander Christine David) And for Mary, that is the name of one sister
of Jaroslav. That works on both ways. For the german origin, even if I
use that method, I am not abble to find any David Alexander Christine
Marguerite). And names of Braunschweig are completely ignore (Ekbert
Gertrude Hugo Liudolf Herman etc...). You can go up on 8 generations if
you want in ancestors of Braunschweig family, you will never find names
you need. During Malcolm III first weding, he ignore family names of
his wife because dukes of Orkney are nothing for the scottish king. But
after the weding with Margaret of England, he consider the english
royal family most prestigious than Scottish royal family (he is only
the second king of is family). My document will be translate properly
in english. I work on the question of Agatha since 13 years. I was
realy honest in my choice. I discover a detail who could help the
bright theory of Szabolcs de Vajay for german origin and I give the
information in my text, even if for me, it is not enough.
Janko Pavsic
Gryphon801
be interested in your suggested solution.
Janko Pavsic
For the problem on the origin of Agatha, I studied the Chryselios
family because in the Bulgarian familial group, I can find all names I
need (Alexander Agatha David etc)
Janko Pavsic
In article <gW0h6.4$hZ6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net>,
--
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> Yes it's fair. The problem is my explanation in english. When you use
> onomastic, your have no obligation to prove that all ancestors names
> will be use in the descent
Yes. But in this case *none* of ancestors names were in use in the
descent :-)
> (that's why I do not need to find some
> Jaroslav of Scotland or Vladimir, Irina or Rurik),
As you note, I excluded the slavic and russian names from the list
of Agatha's uncestors. However I see nothing wrong in George or Irina
of Scotland. Except that they didn't exist.
> That is the first
> point. In fact you must prove than all names you find in the descent
> without explanation, must comes from the family of the person with the
> unknow origin. Or at least (because for some family, we miss documents
> and individuals) you must find those names in the close descent of that
> family.
And in this case all these names but one can be found only among not so
close descedants of family.
> An example for that is the name of David. No brother or
> ancestors of Agafja are named David
Actually, Jaroslav had a brother David.
> but you find David in the descent
> of 4 children of Jaroslav; that's a circumstantial proof.
The wide usage of the name David among Rurikids is explained probably
by popularity of the cult of saint martyrs Boris and Gleb (David being
Gleb's christian name). I don't think David of Scotland is in any way
connected to it. Whenever Malcolm and Margaret get the idea, they
probably had in mind biblical David, not russian saint.
> With that
> system, I explain in the descent of Agatha, the follow names (Agatha,
> Alexander Christine David)
For explaining Margaret and Christina you probably use two swedish
princesses in the next century? This is hardly a strong evidence.
And I can't find any Alexander nearby. I sincerely hope you didn't
mean Alexander Nevsky.
So sorry, but although the russian theory of Agatha's origin certainly
has some merit, IMHO onomastic really isn't it's strong point. The
complete lack of names of Agatha's supposed parents, grandparents,
sublings, etc. among her descendants looks much more telling than
that some of the names can be found among her cousins several times
removed.
Andrew S. Kalinkin
shawn...@my-deja.com
> Some later sources call her Dobrogniewa and Dambrowka
> but as the name Dobronega is known in Poland at the time,
> it is probably correct.
This is an interesting observation from a purely linguistics
perspective--I'm not a linguist, but I do speak Russian.
Russian changes "g" sounds in certain words which are common to other
Slavic languages to "v" sounds--i.e., "ego" is pronounced "evo." The
spelling "Dobrogniewa" looks like a Russian pronunciation of a name
which might be pronounced--and spelled--by western Slavs
as "Dobrogniega."
I'm not sure what the implications of this are for the questions at
hand--if there are any, but these spellings are interesting.
Janko and Andrej, with your native fluency in Slavic languages, do you
think there is any value to this line of inquiry?
Shawn
Andrew S. Kalinkin
again. Apologies to those who can get it twice.
Rafal T. Prinke wrote:
>
> It is not worth much. I have never seen a Polish text assigning
> her to Jaroslav as his daughter. I do not have Jasinski at hand
> - just a copy of the table from his book, where she is made
> a daughter of Vladimir and b. ca 1012-1016.
I checked the latest russian edition of Gallus' chronicle. It
has a large footnote about Dobronega. No "documents" assingning
her as Jaroslav's daughter are mentioned, and I very much doubt
that such thing exists. What *is* mentioned is that some
historians thinks that she is more probably Jaroslav's daughter
than Vladimir's. Their arguments, as I understand, are based
entirely on chronology. FWIW, here are the references listed
(sorry for the lack of diacritics):
S. Ketrzynski. Na marginesie "genealogii Piastow" // Przeglad
Historyczny. 1930-1931. Vol.29.
S. Ketrzynski. Polska w X-XI w. Warszawa,1961.
W. Kowalenko. Kazimierz Odnowieciel // Slownik starozytnosci
slowianskich. 1964. Vol.II part 2.
> Balzer in his monumental work says the same and quotes dozens
> of documents, but relying on three: Gallus and Saxo, who both
> call her a Ruthenian princess without any other details,
> and Nestor who calls her explicitely "a sister of Jaroslav".
> All the later documents either borrowed the information from
> Nestor (most Ruthenian latopises) or can be proved wrong
> (eg. the Hungarian-Polish Chronicle which makes her
> a Hungarian princess).
I am curious: did anyone try to analyze the statement of "Chronica
Poloniae Maioris" that calls her a daughter of prince Roman. In the
russian translation I have it is dismissed out of hand as an obvious
error, but maybe this is not so? (my pet theory).
> As Andrew Kalinkin already said:
>
> > Jan Dlugosz states that she was daughter of Vladimir
> > and Anne, but he is a 15th century author, so his authority is
> > questionable
>
> Balzer comments that it was obviously his guesswork but
> that he was probably right for chronological reasons
> (an earlier wife would make Dobronega too old for Kazimierz).
Certainly, but making her Anne's daughter doesn't solve the
chronological difficulties. A mother born in early 960s for
the woman married circa 1040 doesn't look as a good chronology
for me.
> Some later sources call her Dobrogniewa and Dambrowka
> but as the name Dobronega is known in Poland at the time,
> it is probably correct. She is also given the second name
> of Maria which first appears in a false document so
> is suspect. Dlugosz thought it was her original name
> and she was baptised as Dobronega but Balzer points out
> that it should have been the other way round, if it
> is true at all.
Was ever St. Dobronega? I never heard of one, but my knowledge
in this area is very limited.
> I'll try to check Jasinski on Monday.
Please do.
> Best regards,
>
> Rafal
Andrew
Janko Pavsic
write a full translation of my article here. Like I told to somebody, a
complete translation will be probably done soon. Even if we can not
find for that period a genealogical link between Byzance and Rurikides,
we can undersytand they use Greek names. And we can understand after
that why we find some Greek names in Scotland. If she is from
Braunschweig family, tell me why the wife of the english crown heir,
born in a german family, alive in Scotland, will introduce Greek names
there !!! For Gaspar and Melchior of Braunschweig few centuries later,
we can understand contextual choise for names (father goes to Crusades
and mother is from Cypern). We will not try to find a link between them
and the mythological kings who were supose visithing the Christ. But
for Agatha, what kind of contextual evidence could we find ? For the
using of names, Mary was used. Others names like David appears after
the weding between Anna and Vladimir. Christina and Margaret were usual
two generations later in Sweden. That is right. But how many woman's
name we have in royal Swedish family for that period. Lots are missing.
It is not an hazard if the second cousin of Philippe I of France, the
king of Sweden is named Philippe to.
The wide usage of the name David among Rurikids is explained probably
> by popularity of the cult of saint martyrs Boris and Gleb (David being
> Gleb's christian name). I don't think David of Scotland is in any way
> connected to it. Whenever Malcolm and Margaret get the idea, they
> probably had in mind biblical David, not russian saint.
You can figure what parents had in mind for all children but at the end
of exercise, when you see than in east europe at the same time another
family had same names in mind, it is strange.
And I can't find any Alexander nearby. I sincerely hope you didn't
> mean Alexander Nevsky.
Cultural influence of Constantinople on Kiev. Anastasia wife of Andras
I of Hungary comes from Anastasia Crateros. At that time, some
Alexander exist in the imperial Greek family. That could explain why we
find the name in the descent of Agatha. I know we do Not find brothers
and sisters names of Agatha in her descent. We find first and second
cousins names, or Greek names. How that could be the choice of a girl
from Braunschweig ?
Janko Pavsic
In article <3A84B3...@cityline.ru>,
--
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Note that "liaison" with Anna was not the last marriage of Vladimir.
> Anna died in 1011. When in 1018 Boleslaw entered Kiev, he (according
> to Thietmar) captured Vladimir's widow. This woman may be or may be
> not a daughter of Kuno von Oenningen and Richlint (that old theory
> of Baumgarten had been recently challenged in russian literature),
> but there is no reason to doubt her existance. It looks much more
> plausible that if Dobronega was Vladimir's daughter after all, she
> was born from this union and not by Anna.
This is being reevaluated from the German side as well. It is
now being argued that Kuno of Oenningen was none other than
Konrad, Duke of Swabia. I don't know how this affects the
chronology on the Russian end.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> During Malcolm III first weding, he ignore family names of
> his wife because dukes of Orkney are nothing for the scottish king.
IIRC, he only had one known child, named after his father. No
conclusion can be drawn from this one way or the other (had there
been just one child by the second wife, we would have no
Alexander or David to discuss).
> But
> after the weding with Margaret of England, he consider the english
> royal family most prestigious than Scottish royal family (he is only
> the second king of is family).
Of his male lineage, but not of his family. His father's claim
was as grandson of the previous king, and they continued to
derive their claim from the ancient kings.
I am skeptical about the names of David and Alexander coming from
Agatha's kindred, when these are also the names of the two of the
Worthies that came to be respected by all Europe. Likewise, you
include Philip, but a recently published analysis suggests that,
based on a historical fad of the time, Philip was named for a
respected Roman Emperor.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
> Janko Pavsic wrote:
> >
> > During Malcolm III first weding, he ignore family names of
> > his wife because dukes of Orkney are nothing for the scottish king.
>
> IIRC, he only had one known child, named after his father. No
> conclusion can be drawn from this one way or the other (had there
> been just one child by the second wife, we would have no
> Alexander or David to discuss).
>
> > But
> > after the weding with Margaret of England, he consider the english
> > royal family most prestigious than Scottish royal family (he is only
> > the second king of is family).
>
> Of his male lineage, but not of his family. His father's claim
> was as grandson of the previous king, and they continued to
> derive their claim from the ancient kings.
>
> I am skeptical about the names of David and Alexander coming from
> Agatha's kindred, when these are also the names of the two of the
> Worthies that came to be respected by all Europe.
The 'Nine Worthies' legend postdates this by at little while, IIRC. See
Horst Schroeder, _Der Topos der 'Nine Worthies' in Literatur und bildender
Kunst_ (Göttingen, 1971).
Nat Taylor
Rafal T. Prinke
"Andrew S. Kalinkin" <kali...@cityline.ru> wrote:
> I am curious: did anyone try to analyze the statement of "Chronica
> Poloniae Maioris" that calls her a daughter of prince Roman. In the
> russian translation I have it is dismissed out of hand as an obvious
> error, but maybe this is not so? (my pet theory).
It says: "[Kazimirus] duxit uxorem, filiam Romani principis
Russie, filii Odonis, nomine Dobronegam alias dictam Maria".
Balzer mentions a theory that Kazimierz had two wives,
the other being a daughter of (otherwise unknown) Odo
son of Bezprym son of Boleslaw I Chrobry, who was made
(by that theory) a ruler in Slovakia. He dismisses all
of this as not founded on any source evidence.
> Certainly, but making her Anne's daughter doesn't solve the
> chronological difficulties. A mother born in early 960s for
> the woman married circa 1040 doesn't look as a good chronology
> for me.
Perhaps not good but still possible. Do you think that
Nestor may have been wrong in calling her "sister of
Jaroslav"? Balzer seems to accept his statement
without reservation.
> Was ever St. Dobronega? I never heard of one, but my knowledge
> in this area is very limited.
I do not think there was a saint of that name but
as we in Poland celebrate "nameday" rather than
birthday, old Slavic names were assigned a date
in the 19th century, so that everyone could get presents.
As Dobroniega was also included (26 August), the name
was probably still in use then. See:
http://nasze-dzieci.dobrestrony.pl/imiona.htm
Best regards,
Rafal
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/10/01 10:37:10 AM, farm...@interfold.com writes:
<< a recently published analysis suggests that, based on a historical fad of
the time, Philip was named for a respected Roman Emperor. >>
Why not from the Philippians instead? Philippi was the first place in Europe
where Paul preached the gospel. This seems a more reasonable origin for the
European name of Philip.
Marcus Julius Philippus (emperor 244-249) was an Arab and had no real claim
to fame that anyone would want to pass along that I am aware of.
Philippicus. (711-713) was emperor and also of Armenian origin. More famous
was Philip of Macedon, from whom the Bulgarian town of Philippopolis was
named. All the Philip names--including Philippi -- originated with Philip I,
King of Macedon, in the 2nd centtury BC. He was mentioned by Heroditus, but
there is no real evidence for his existence, and he may be legendary.
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor and Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
__________________________________________
HT Communications / PO Box 1401 / Arvada CO 80001
VOICE: 303-420-4888 FAX: 303-420-4845
<A HREF="http://HTCommunications.org/homepage.htm">
http://HTCommunications.org/homepage.htm</A>
KHF...@AOL.com
Janko Pavsic
KHF...@aol.com wrote:
> << a recently published analysis suggests that, based on a historical
fad of
> the time, Philip was named for a respected Roman Emperor. >>
>
> Why not from the Philippians instead? Philippi was the first place in
Europe
> where Paul preached the gospel. This seems a more reasonable origin
for the
> European name of Philip.
The answer comes from Jean Dunbabin in "What's in a name? Philipp king
of France" Speculum LXVIII 1993 p.949-968. During the reign of Henri I
of France, Philippe l'arabe was regarded as the first christian
emperor. That is one of 3 reasons for a Philippe in France, and on that
point I agree with the author.
Janko Pavsic
--
Todd A. Farmerie
Yes, ut it is somewhat indicative of the respect with which these
particular ancient kings were viewed. It might make them worthy
(so to speak) subjects to wish to bring to mind by someone who
wants himself and his kin to be thought of as great kings (just
as American General Ethan Allen named his oldest son Hannibal).
He was pretty far down the list of children by the time he pulled
out these names, a point when the probability of introducing
novelty into the naming process seemed to increase (such as with
King John).
taf
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> "Andrew S. Kalinkin" <kali...@cityline.ru> wrote:
>
> > I am curious: did anyone try to analyze the statement of "Chronica
> > Poloniae Maioris" that calls her a daughter of prince Roman. In the
> > russian translation I have it is dismissed out of hand as an obvious
> > error, but maybe this is not so? (my pet theory).
>
> It says: "[Kazimirus] duxit uxorem, filiam Romani principis
> Russie, filii Odonis, nomine Dobronegam alias dictam Maria".
>
> Balzer mentions a theory that Kazimierz had two wives,
> the other being a daughter of (otherwise unknown) Odo
> son of Bezprym son of Boleslaw I Chrobry, who was made
> (by that theory) a ruler in Slovakia. He dismisses all
> of this as not founded on any source evidence.
I thought in different directions: one of Vladimir's sons
was named (in baptism) Roman. So there was "Romani principis
Russie" in the right time frame. Now if we could find any
excuse for assigning name Odo to Vladimir ...
> > Certainly, but making her Anne's daughter doesn't solve the
> > chronological difficulties. A mother born in early 960s for
> > the woman married circa 1040 doesn't look as a good chronology
> > for me.
>
> Perhaps not good but still possible. Do you think that
> Nestor may have been wrong in calling her "sister of
> Jaroslav"? Balzer seems to accept his statement
> without reservation.
I think that Nestor is quite capable to be wrong, especially for
the events happened before his own memory. But even if in this
case he is right, Dobronega can be Vladimir's daughter from the
last marriage, but not by Anne.
Andrew
Omega
> I of Hungary comes from Anastasia Crateros. At that time, some
> Alexander exist in the imperial Greek family. That could explain why we
> find the name in the descent of Agatha.
Was Anastasia Crateros the Granddaughter of General Crateros who lost the
battle against the "arabs" in Crete??? 9th Century if I remember well. He
escaped to the island of Kos where he was captured and killed. I thought
that the family was extinct.
As far as Scotland is concerned, I understand, from VERY old unwritten
stories that there were many Greek merchant outposts there, and that many
"Scottish" families are descendents of Greeks. As proof, the Scottish Dance
(almost identical to some Greek dances) and the "blow-pipe", are mentioned.
The "blow-pipe" is known as "Askomadoura" in Greece. Also the fact(?) that
there are villages in Scotland that speak a language unknown/different to
North Europe/North European and allegedly relate to Greek is given as proof.
As I said, it is a story and personally, I do not believe in stories. Off
course if there were villages in Scotland that speak traditionally a
language foreign to the North Europe, than the story may have legs to stand.
Pierre Aronax
Omega <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> a écrit dans le message :
OjNg6.6$%W6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
> Nobody ever heard Mrs Palaologos calling herself Palaiologina, and Nobody
I don't know which were the first steps of this linguistic quarrel and the
arguments that have been exchanged, but for example (between many others
examples) the wife of Emperor Michael VIII, Theodora, call herself with
certainty "Palaiologina".
Omega
> arguments that have been exchanged, but for example (between many others
> examples) the wife of Emperor Michael VIII, Theodora, call herself with
> certainty "Palaiologina".
No disrespect, but if you check your sources, you may find that these are
claims of Historians who: a) were born after the death of the persons they
write about: or b) write History from stories they have heard in their life
time; or c) write history on behalf of others who were unable to write
anything themselves.
It is well known that many "historians" where confused, influenced by their
own feelings, frequently mixed up names (for example Anna Komninos in her
Alexiad), and to balance their short comings they used "colourful language"
to describe or name individuals.
regard
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:966a3h$a5q$1...@front4m.grolier.fr...
Pierre Aronax
> No disrespect, but if you check your sources, you may find that these are
> claims of Historians who: a) were born after the death of the persons they
> write about: or b) write History from stories they have heard in their
life
> time; or c) write history on behalf of others who were unable to write
> anything themselves.
Only two examples, accessible on the net (because it is Sunday and I can not
go to the library), taken from archivistic documents and not from historians
:
In the typikon of Empress Irene (wife of Alexios I Komnenos) for the Convent
of the Theotokos Kecharitomene in Constantinople, she is named "the most
devout Augusta, Lady Irene Doukaina".
In the typikon of Irene Choumnaina Palaiologina (daughter of Nikephoros
Choumnos and wife of John Palaiologos, despot, son of Emperor Andronikos II)
for the Convent of Christ Philanthropos in Constantinople, she is named "the
pious princess Irene Laskarina Palaiologina, who took the name Eulogia after
adopting the divine and angelic habit".
Omega
Convent
> of the Theotokos Kecharitomene in Constantinople, she is named "the most
> devout Augusta, Lady Irene Doukaina".
We agree than, "SHE IS NAMED" that's the key word. She was not identified
by her maiden name but with her Married name. That's exactly what the
ending means.
"The wife of"; if it was the daughter than it would have been wrong.
> In the typikon of Irene Choumnaina Palaiologina (daughter of Nikephoros
> Choumnos and wife of John Palaiologos, despot, son of Emperor Andronikos
II)
> for the Convent of Christ Philanthropos in Constantinople, she is named
"the
> pious princess Irene Laskarina Palaiologina, who took the name Eulogia
after
> adopting the divine and angelic habit".
In this cases the naming of both, the writer (If indeed it was Irene that
wrote the statement as presented) and the princess are not right. Again
"SHE IS NAMED" is the key word.
It is worthwhile to view the original and not the translation. You will
find that the number of these "exotic names" has substantially increased the
last 50 years, especially in reviews of papers written by others.
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9675mo$qk2$1...@front1m.grolier.fr...
Pierre Aronax
> > In the typikon of Empress Irene (wife of Alexios I Komnenos) for the
> Convent
> > of the Theotokos Kecharitomene in Constantinople, she is named "the most
> > devout Augusta, Lady Irene Doukaina".
>
> We agree than, "SHE IS NAMED" that's the key word. She was not
identified
> by her maiden name but with her Married name. That's exactly what the
> ending means.
> "The wife of"; if it was the daughter than it would have been wrong.
Excuse me, but Doukaina is the maiden name of Irene : she is the daughter of
Andronikos Doukas and the wife of a Komnenos.
>
> > In the typikon of Irene Choumnaina Palaiologina (daughter of Nikephoros
> > Choumnos and wife of John Palaiologos, despot, son of Emperor Andronikos
> II)
> > for the Convent of Christ Philanthropos in Constantinople, she is named
> "the
> > pious princess Irene Laskarina Palaiologina, who took the name Eulogia
> after
> > adopting the divine and angelic habit".
>
> In this cases the naming of both, the writer (If indeed it was Irene that
> wrote the statement as presented) and the princess are not right. Again
> "SHE IS NAMED" is the key word.
> It is worthwhile to view the original and not the translation. You will
> find that the number of these "exotic names" has substantially increased
the
> last 50 years, especially in reviews of papers written by others.
I beg your pardon again, but this are official documents, not stories told
by an historian as you seem to imply when repeatedly quoting "she is named".
I must confess I don't see what kind of documents more accurate than that
you could exactly expect to find. Except a phone record of course.
Omega
ending does not apply to daughters.
As far as the official documents is concern, it does not make any difference
the Key word is SHE WAS NAMED, that's different to "She Introduced herself
as Doukaina".
Any way, Official or not official documents, they were written by somebody
the documents did not just appear, send by God.
That somebody, was either a Bureaucrat or a "Historian". The term
"Historian" was not as strict then as it is today. Anyone who left behind a
document or written information about the life of his/her time was a
"Historian".
I really do not see the problem. Is the document a Historical factual
document or something not worth considering?
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:968hvd$m8n$1...@front1m.grolier.fr...
Pierre Aronax
> In the first case, if she is the daughter, than it is wrong because the
> ending does not apply to daughters.
I am afraid that the document reflects the practice of that time and that it
is you who are wrong.
>
> As far as the official documents is concern, it does not make any
difference
> the Key word is SHE WAS NAMED, that's different to "She Introduced herself
> as Doukaina".
I don't see the difference. Do you think that an official document will give
her an another name than the one she used ?
> Any way, Official or not official documents, they were written by somebody
> the documents did not just appear, send by God.
Of course, what do you mean by that ?
> That somebody, was either a Bureaucrat or a "Historian". The term
> "Historian" was not as strict then as it is today. Anyone who left behind
a
> document or written information about the life of his/her time was a
> "Historian".
You have a very strange definition of that term. So, for you, the writer of
a typikon his an historian ? I think that you are the only one on earth of
that opinion. It seems that you do not know the difference between
diplomatic and historiographic sources.
I must apologize. I have taken you seriously.
Omega
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:969jq0$3bm$1...@front1.grolier.fr...
Andrew S. Kalinkin
> Cultural influence of Constantinople on Kiev. Anastasia wife of Andras
> I of Hungary comes from Anastasia Crateros.
I would guess that Anastasia's came from her grandmother, but *her* name
could come from Anastasia Crateros, tho in practice this makes no difference.
> At that time,
Roughly a century and a half before
> some
> Alexander exist in the imperial Greek family. That could explain why we
> find the name in the descent of Agatha.
There was also another Alexander, *much* more known in Europe, Russia and
probably anywhere in the world than an extremely obscure byzantine emperor.
> I know we do Not find brothers
> and sisters names of Agatha in her descent. We find first and second
> cousins names, or Greek names. How that could be the choice of a girl
> from Braunschweig ?
Well, if you insist, then the uncle of the Braunschweig girl was married
to a woman, whose aunt was assigned the name Margaret by Adam of Bremen
(although she is usually known by another name). Note also that great-
(several times)-uncle of the Brauschweig girl had a Byzantine wife.
Andrew
Stewart, Peter
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Monday, 12 February 2001 8:22
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Vladimir I and Anna of Byzance
>
>
> > I don't know which were the first steps of this linguistic
> > quarrel and the arguments that have been exchanged, but
> > for example (between many others examples) the wife
> > of Emperor Michael VIII, Theodora, call herself with
> > certainty "Palaiologina".
>
>
> that these are claims of Historians who: a) were born after the
> death of the persons they write about: or b) write History
> from stories they have heard in their life time; or c) write
> history on behalf of others who were unable to write
> anything themselves.
>
> influenced by their own feelings, frequently mixed up names
> (for example Anna Komninos in her Alexiad), and to balance
> their short comings they used "colourful language"
> to describe or name individuals.
>
> regard
>
> Omega Thoroughbreds
> Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
> e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
> Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
This subject has been made tedious for the newsgroup by the stubbornness of
Dr Tsambourakis in holding to his flat-wrong notions about Byzantine naming
practice. He twists & turns whenever proved wrong on any point & simply will
not be told by anyone -- Christian Settipani was once "informed" by him that
there could be no such Greek given name as Pantherios, a claim as outlandish
and ill-informed as any he has made more recently.
Perhaps the doctor will explain the following:
The Lincoln College Typikon, as well as being a liturgical book, is the
actual foundation charter for the convent of Bebaia Elpis (Our Lady of Good
Hope) in Constantinople. The foundress was the nun Theodoule, born Theodora
Palaiologina (Palaiologos according to Dr Tsambourakis). She was not a
"traveller from the West" or a "confused Historian". In the text of her
charter, a contemporary legal document, she is described as "Branaina
Komnene Laskarina Kantakuzene Palaiologina".
Does Dr Tsambourakis seriously propose that she was the wife of all those
men? Of course she wasn't: she was appropriating the surnames of all the
ancestors she wished to honour by her foundation. And she used FEMININE
forms of each and every name.
Peter Stewart
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Wasn't also argued that Richlint is a granddaughter of Otto I
(daughter of his son Liudolf) rather than daughter? For Russian
connection we have only statement of "Genealogia Welforum" and
"Historia Welforum Weingartensis" that an unnamed daughter of
Kuno and Richlint married "king of Russia" (regi Rugorum). As
usual, author didn't bother to identify him in any way. The usual
solution was that he is Vladimir. The new theory, proposed by
A.V.Nazarenko, moves the marriage from ca.1012 to mid-970s and
makes the Vladimir's brother Jaropolk the bridegroom. (He should
also transform marriage to a mere betrophal, because Jaropolk
was married, but not a German princess). I don't know how Kuno's
identification with Konrad affects this controversy, but moving
Richlint one generation down the tree will kill Nazarenko's theory.
Liudolf's granddaughter would be too young for marriage in mid-970s.
But the theory was very unconvincing anyway...
Andrew
Pierre Aronax
Stewart, Peter <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> a écrit dans le message :
BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
>
> Does Dr Tsambourakis seriously propose that she was the wife of all those
> men? Of course she wasn't: she was appropriating the surnames of all the
> ancestors she wished to honour by her foundation. And she used FEMININE
> forms of each and every name.
I have also given to Dr "Omega" Tsambourakis two examples of Byzantine women
who used feminine forms of their paternal surname in typika. See his answer
: he explains that there is no difference between an official document and
an historian; for him, bureaucrats, historians, that's the same ! Quoting
the Dr : "Anyone who left behind a document or written information about the
life of his/her time was an Historian"... He will again explain to you that
it is not Theodora that write the document, and so that she introduced
herself in an other way (knew only of himself without the help of a such
fallacious thing that an historical document).
This man is really the omega of history. He knows nothing of what he
pretends to speak about. He is really entertaining, as far as you know that
exchanging arguments with him is absolutely useless.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> >
> > This is being reevaluated from the German side as well. It is
> > now being argued that Kuno of Oenningen was none other than
> > Konrad, Duke of Swabia. I don't know how this affects the
> > chronology on the Russian end.
>
> Wasn't also argued that Richlint is a granddaughter of Otto I
> (daughter of his son Liudolf) rather than daughter?
Yes, that is a critical part of the argument, but most analyses I
have seen ignore the russian connection (or rather, mention it
but do not discuss it.
taf