Papal dispensations

[Doug Holmes]

In one post last week, someone mentioned data from the dispensation for
marriage by the Pope in the 1400s or so. This leads me to ask whether one
can write somewhere and obtain these. And if so, what is the fee?

And if anyone knows, what is the time period of these dispensations which
are extant?

Thanks,

Doug Holmes

[Kennwalrus]

Doug Holmes inquires after 14th-century papal dispensations -- do they exist?
Can they be obtained? From whom, and for how much?

I've been trying for years to get an informed answer to this question, without
luck. (All answers seem to boil down to 'I dunno.') At this point, I have to
assume either that the Vatican doesn't have 'em, or won't release 'em.
(Probably the former.) If they were available, they'd have crucial
applicability to numerous problems in medieval genealogy, on which many
high-powered genealogists have long been working. But you never see 'em
referring to such.

There are, of course, sometimes *copies* of such dispensations preserved by
ecclesiastical bodies at the local level; e.g., a series of 15th-century
dispensations applying to Yorkshire, Northumberland, and Durham, which were
published by the Surtees Society; I alluded to one such in a post of a week or
so back.

[Leslie Mahler]

Ive also asked about papal dispensations before, but Ive never heard
much about anyone finding them.
However,there is an interesting item mentioned in The Genealogist, vol
11, no 2, page 182, regarding a medieval Scottish marriage. The article
ends by saying that a search is currently being done in the Vatican
archives for a dispensation record.

Leslie

[Patricia J Corbera]

The genealogist from Madeira Portugal, that prepared my pedigree charts
noted the following in a footnote with reference to one of my direct line
ancestors, (Antonio Francisco b: bef 1596, who married Ines Francisca on
Oct 14, 1625 in the Estreito da Calheta, Madeira, Portugal)..."He
(Antonio Francisco) himself went to Rome to obtain dispensation to marry
to his cousin, that is unusal and he must have been a man of means, if
not wealthy"... I never really gave it much thought until now that you
have brought the subject up... but it would be an interesting piece of
documentation to have...maybe next time I'm at a FHC I'll order the film
that contains their marriage record, to see if the dispensation document
was attached and also filmed...
to be continued:
papagaia

[Doug Holmes]

Thanks.

I was in contact with a Portuguese priest living in Vatican City last fall
and I'll have to look up his email and see if he can shed any light on it.
Hopefully, he's still there.

Doug

[Doug Holmes]

At 03:43 4.6.1998 +0000, Cajun007 wrote:
>In my case, I found the dispensations to be in the records of the parish
priest
>that performed the marriage. For instance, I recenlty found that two
ancestors
>married in what is now modern day Belgium and they were first cousins. In
order
>to be married they were given a Papal dispensation that was sent via
courier to
>the parish priest. The written dispensation is in the parish marriage book,
>and included in the marriage record act is the fact that a Papal dispensation
>had been issued. Another case I found in the area around Chantilly that
>required a Papal dispensation, was a little tricky. Two of my ancestors
>married and their parents, her father and his mother were both widowed, and
>they married each other a couple of years after their children wed. This
>dispensation was also stored in the original parish book. If copies were
kept
>in Rome, I don't know. Once permission was sent to the parish priest I don't
>see why Rome would also keep the copy. These two cases I mention were
recorded
>1588 and 1598, not medieval, but I imagine the case would have been the same
>earlier.

This is really great data. Thanks.

My question is the contents of that record. Did they specify the names of
each ancestor back to the point of consanguinity?

Usually, in Portuguese records, they simply say that they are related in
the 3rd degree, etc., but don't specify it and the office of the bishop is
the one to grant dispensation, not the Pope.

Doug

[Cajun007]

[Cajun007]

I don't know what determines whether the dispesation is from a bishop or Rome.
It might have something to do with the echelon of society of the people being
married-but this is only a guess. I say that because most of my ancestors that
married cousins (and there were many) were farming and vinter families, and
they received their dispenations from the bishop. For instance, some of them
lived around the town of Chantilly in France and their dispensation came from
the bishop in Beauvais. Those who had to get a Papal dispensation were an
aldermen (echevin) and a mayor. One example of a Papal dispensation in a
farming family was one I found a couple of weeks ago in a microfilm that
covered an area around Brussels. Apparently a man who was recently widowed
married his wife's sister, who also happened to be her twin. On top of that,
they were first cousins. I don't know much more about that as they were not
related to me but the two page marriage act caught my curiosity. By the way,
the dispensation took a year to get to them by which time they already had
their first child, who was then legitimized after the marriage of the parents
was performed.

[macbeth]

Would this be the kind of document about which the original
'Papal Dispensations' Sender was enquiring?
I'm sorry for not replying earlier and direct to Sender, but I
had deleted the msg before I came across this description/summary
on the Net.
BW
Elizabeth Moss

>HARVARD LAW SCHOOL DEEDS COLLECTION -- LONDON
>Deeds 430
>
>Papal Dispensation,1532, Nov.18. 9 Clement VII 24 Henry VIII(1532/3)
>1 item : parchment ; 19.5 x 37.5 cm.
>
>SUMMARY: Dispensation granted by Peter Vamies, Latin secretary of his
>majesty Henry VIII and papal collector in England by virtue of a faculty
>from Pope Clement VII, to John Barneby and Jane Boswell of the diocese of
>York to marry,notwithstanding the impediment due to their relation in the
>fourth and fifth degrees of consanguinity.Given in London,18 November 1532
>and 9 Clement VII.Signed by Petrus Vamies, collector.With 1 seal(c.8.5cm.)
>of red wax, oval in shape, pendant on a green card and enclosed in a metal
>skippet;
>damaged;bearing the device:SS.Peter and Paul flanking a pedestal,behind it
>a crucifix and an emblem, the evangelists before it, of the keys and the
>papal crown
>below a shield bearing a dragon; bearing the legend: . . .
>COLLECTORIE : CAMERE : APOSTOLICE : IN : REGNO . . . HOL#
>-BCB6593-1 I. Vamies, Peter. II. Clement VII, Pope. III. Barneby, John.
>IV. Barneby, Jane.
>SUBJECTS: 1. Deeds--England--London. 2. Deeds--England--York.
>3. London (England) (England)--Charters, grants, privileges.
>4. York (England)--Charters, grants, privileges.