Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
Douglas Richardson
As indicated in my post yesterday, Sir Edward Greville (died 1528)
named his brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame, in his will dated 1528,
proved in 1529 (P.C.C., 11 Jankyn).
The items below are taken from various catalogues found in the online
A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). They concern
Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford, Gloucestershire, son of a local merchant,
John Tame. There is a monumental brass in the Fairford church for Sir
Edmund Tame (died 1534) and his two wives.
Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford, is evidently the same person who was Sir
Edward Greville's brother-in-law. A post in the newsgroup archives
shows that the manor of Ashley (in Charlton Kings) which was used to
guarantee the first transaction below to Edmund Tame, then esquire, of
Fairford, was subsequently mortgaged by Sir Edward Greville in 1520.
Greville's then wife, Anne, and their son and heir, John, served as
guarantors of mortgage repayment.
This means that Sir Edward Greville married his 2nd wife, Jane Ormond,
sometime between 1520 (when his first wife Anne was still living) and
1523-24 (when he held court at Medbourn, Leicestershire in right of his
second wife, Jane).
I also find that Sir Edmund Tame's daughter, Margaret, was married by
settlement dated 1528 to Sir Humphrey Stafford.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
1. Gloucestershire Record Office: The Guise Family and its
Gloucestershire Properties
Reference: D326/T88/9
Creation dates: 24 April 18 Hen. VII (1503)
Scope and Content
Bargain and sale for £24:
(i) Edm. Tame of Fairford, esq.
(ii) John Westby of Charlton Kings, gent.
- Manor of Rendcomb; reversion of lands in Calmsden, North Cerney,
Hilcot [in Withington], Eycot [in Rendcomb], Colesbourne and
Withington, now held by John Vynour and wife Kateryn for term of her
life.
(i) offers the manor of Ashley in Charlton Kings as surety to (ii).
Seal on a tag, missing.
2. Gloucestershire Record Office: The Guise Family and its
Gloucestershire Properties
Reference: D326/T88/10
Creation dates: 21 Feb. 23 Hen. VII (1508)
Scope and Content
Grant:
(i) Edward, Duke of Buckingham etc.
(ii) Edm. Tame, esq.
- Messuage, 6 virgates of land and 6 closes in Rendcomb, excepting
house called 'Courtehous' and close called Powndeclose, advowson of
church of St. Peter, Rendcomb.
Lawrence Stubbes, clerk, Walter Parker, and Geo. Hatton appointed
attorneys by (i).
Signature of Edw. Duke of Buckingham.
Seal on a tag. Circular. Poor impression, possibly a crest of a ducal
coronet, with a swan rising from it.
3. Gloucestershire Record Office: The Guise Family and its
Gloucestershire Properties
Reference: D326/T104
Creation dates: 1506
Extent and Form: 1
Location of Originals
On display at Elmore Court, 1958.
Copies Information
Photocopy 785.
Scope and Content
At Chapter held in house of Clerkenwell. 10 July 1506
Exchange:
(i) Fr. Thos. Docwra Prior of Hospitallers
(ii) Edmond Tame, Fairford, esq.
- (i) to (ii): messuage called Pyttes house, 2½ yardlands, 3 closes,
of which one is called Armoreshey in Calmsden (in N. Cerney), lately
occupied by John Parsons then Richard Robyns at 13s. 4d. rent.
(ii) to (i): one messuage, one close, 3 yardlands arable, 3 roods
meadow in Quennington lately held by Wm. Faux of (i) for 15s. p.a.; one
messuage, one close, 3 fardolles and 3 roods arable in same lately held
by Walter Poole of (i) for 3s. 4d. p.a.
(ii) to pay 4d. p.a. to (i), and perform suit of court at Quennington.
Affixed: Letter of attorney, 10 July 1506.
(i) Fr. Thos. Docwra
(ii) Thos. Leyland, Thos. Westwood, gents.
To deliver seisin.
Seal of Prior of Knights Hospitaller on tag (good condition)
4. English Heritage National Monuments Record: Henry Taunt
[HWT01/01/CC56 - HWT01/01/CC72]
Reference: CC57/00362
Looking east along the nave with aisle arcades to either side. The
church was almost entirely rebuilt around 1480-1500 by John Tame, a
local wool merchant and his son Sir Edmund Tame.(Interior view)
Creation dates: 1900
Extent and Form: 1 Negative (Glass photographic plate)
Extent and Form: 1 Inkjet print (General/ordinary paper; Inkjet)
Access Conditions
Public
Reproduction Conditions
Copyright: Reproduced By Permission Of English Heritage. National
Monuments Record
Scope and Content
Colour or black and white: Black and white
Paper Size: 6.5 x 8.5 INS
Photographer: Henry W Taunt
Address/Location: St Marys Church, Fairford, Gloucestershire
Period and
Monument type: Medieval Church
Component term: Nave
Style: Perpendicular
5. English Heritage National Monuments Record: Henry Taunt
[HWT01/01/CC56 - HWT01/01/CC72]
Reference: CC57/00366
A brass of Sir Edmund Tame, the son of the founder of the church, who
died in 1534. He and his two wives are shown kneeling in
prayer.(Interior view)
Creation dates: 1860 - 1922
Extent and Form: 1 Negative (Glass photographic plate)
Extent and Form: 1 Inkjet print (General/ordinary paper; Inkjet)
Access Conditions
Public
Reproduction Conditions
Copyright: Reproduced By Permission Of English Heritage. National
Monuments Record
Scope and Content
Colour or black and white: Black and white
Paper Size: 6.5 x 8.5 INS
Photographer: Henry W Taunt
Address/Location: Edmund Tame Brass, St Marys Church, Fairford,
Gloucestershire
Period and
Monument type: Tudor Commemorative brass
6. Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
Reference: DR10/1895
OFFICIAL PAPERS - MISCELLANEOUS INQUISITIONS POST MORTEM
Creation dates: 5 August 1546
Physical characteristics: Paper, 12 x 16½ ins., 18 sheets fastened at
the head, many damaged along the bottom edge.
Scope and Content
Draft inquisition taken at Warwick before Richard Newport, gent.,
eschaetor for the county of Warwick, upon the death of Humphrey
Stafford, knight. The jurors swear that he was seised in demesne as of
fee in the manors of Lemington Hastings, Grenburgh and Burton, alias
Burton upon Dunsmoor in Warwickshire and in 32 messuages, 60 cottages,
600 acres of land, 41 acres of meadow, 600 acres of pasture, 12 acres
of woods and 4 acres of heath in Lemyngton, Grenborough, Burton, Hyll,
Napton, Caldecote, Burdebury and Draicote, together with the advowson
of Burton. These were held by a charter dated 21 January 1423/4 to
Humphrey Stafford of Grafton, Worcs., esq. and Alienor his wife,
grandparents of the said Humphrey, to be held of the chief lord of the
fee for services due and accustomed.
The jurors also declare that he held the manors of Bradwell, Happesford
and Rowdon in Warwickshire, with 16 messuages, 2 cottages, 100 acres of
land, 60 acres of meadow, 10 acres of pasture [ms damaged]. Held by
charter of Humphrey Stafford, knight, dated 1 October 1442 to John,
Bishop of Bath & Wells, Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord of Studley, Sir William
Mountford, William Stafford, esq., John Humpage, John Wood, John Massy,
Thomas Lytleton and William Pullesdon (as trustees to uses declared
under the will of the said Humphrey Stafford) viz: [modern spelling
hereafter] Grandborough, Calcutt, Birdingbury & Rawdon were to descend
to Thomas Stafford, one of the sons of Humphrey, at age 18, with
successive remainders in default of male issue to his other sons
Humphrey, Ralph, Richard and John; Leamington [Hastings], Burton,
Hopsford[Hall] and Broadwell were to pass to Humphrey at 21 with
similar remainders to the other sons. Thomas and Richard predeceased
their father; Ralph and John died without issue and all the estates
passed therefore to Humphrey, father of Sir Humphrey (subject of the
IPM) to whom they in turn descended.
By the marriage settlement, 1 February 1526/7, of Humphrey Stafford
(son of the subject of the IPM), and Margaret, daughter of Sir Edmund
Tame, the following lands, worth 100 marks p.a. were settled on them,
with a proviso for a jointure of 40 marks p.a. to Margaret viz:
1 messuage & 3 virgates in Broadwell in the tenure of Geoffrey Walton,
worth £3.0.13d p.a.
1 messuage & 3¾ virgates in Broadwell &Hill in tenure John Woodford,
worth £4.18.4d p.a.
1 messuage & 2¼ virgates in Hill in the tenure of Robert Macok, worth
£2.2.11d p.a.
1 messuage & 2¼ virgates in Leamington in the tenure of Joanna Clever,
worth £1.16.9½d p.a.
1 messuage & 1½ virgates in Leamington in the tenure of Richard Clark,
worth £1.10.1½d p.a.
1 messuage & 2½ virgates in Hill in the tenure of Henry Clever, worth
£2.10.1½d p.a.
1 messuage & 2 virgates in Hill in the tenure of William Pullar, worth
£2.0.1½d p.a.
1 close called Beneyard & 2 virgates in Hardwick, in tenure Henry
Bedyll, worth £2.0.1½d p.a.
1½ virgates in the tenure of John Manne, worth £1.9.1½d p.a.
1 messuage & 1¼ virgates in Broadwell in the tenure of John Samond,
worth £1.5.1½d p.a.
The manor of Grandborough in the tenure of John Faringday [?] and
Richard Brye, worth £25 p.a.
Humphrey Stafford died 22 September last [i.e. 1545] and the heir and
nearest kin is his son Humphrey Stafford, esq, aged 39 and above.
The jurors declare that the annual value of Leamington Hastings is £20
and that it is held in chief of the King for 1 knight's fee.
The Manor of Burton and lands are worth £9.10s p.a. and are held of
Queen Katherine.
The Manors of Broadwell & Hill, with lands, are worth [torn ms] and are
held of Edward Oneley, esq. as of the manor of Catesby, for service and
10d p.a.
The Manor of Grandborough and lands in Calcutt & Rowdon are worth
£23.6s p.a. and are held of the King as part of the estates of the
late dissolved priory of Coventry, for service.
The Manor of Hopsford [blanks in ms]
WJho...@aol.com
This new find that Joan Ormonde, widow of Sir Thomas Dinham of Eythorpe,
Bucks (d 1519), married secondly Sir Edward Greville of Milcote (d 1529)
Is just simply amazing. I'm [evidently almost] speechless.
This will have a significant effect on my own research as Sir Edward Greville
had a Cecil Number of 9 previously and now has a 6.
Suddenly two hundred or more people are brought into my sights by this.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< [by document dated 1 October 1442] .... Grandborough, Calcutt,
Birdingbury & Rawdon were to descend
to Thomas Stafford, one of the sons of Humphrey, at age 18, with successive
remainders in default of male issue to his other sons Humphrey, Ralph,
Richard and John; Leamington [Hastings], Burton, Hopsford[Hall] and Broadwell were
to pass to Humphrey at 21 with similar remainders to the other sons. Thomas
and Richard predeceased their father; Ralph and John died without issue and
all the estates passed therefore to Humphrey, father of Sir Humphrey (subject
of the
IPM) to whom they in turn descended. >>
But this would mean that Sir William Stafford d 18 Jun 1450 m Katherine
Chidiock is not a son of Humphrey Stafford of Grafton and Alianor Aylesbury...
wouldn't it ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
http://content.ancestry.com/browse/bookview.aspx?dbid=17337&iid=dvm_GenMono003
452-00165-1&desc=Edmund+Tame
that Edmund Tame was a witness at the marriage of Anne Stradling to John
Danvers in 1487
Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth) : their ancestors
and descendants from the conquest till the termina
Author: Macnamara, F. N. Date of Publication: 1895
page 265
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=22596&iid=dvm_GenMono005
352-00147-1
The Ligon family and connections
Author: Ligon, William D. Date of Publication: 1947
page 245
that John Tame purchased Fairford from the crown in 1498, and obit 1500
his wife Alice obit 1471 both having memorial in St Mary's, Fairford
This work states, it was "his *grandson* Edmund who succeeded to the manor,
and who, left three sisters and coheirs.
BUT Fairford was held in jointure by Catherine, his relict, twice married
after his decease, to Sir Walter Buckler, knight who procured from Queen
Elizabeth a father [farther?] confirmation of the demesnes; and lastly to Roger Lygon,
Esq"
END OF QUOTE
This Katherine which this work called "Dennys, dau of William Dennys esq of
Pucklechurch" has some sort of memorial in this church "erected in 1590" to
herself and her last husband Roger Lygon, Esq
I'm not clear reading this, exactly when they died, but apparently it was
before 1590 at least.
Does any of that help us figure out the exact nature of how this Edmund or
perhaps his father or uncle was "brother-in-law" to Edward Greville ?
Will Johnson
John H
I assume this is the Edward Greville of whom you speak.
(I didnt see any previous post of yours on TAME family... maybe it got lost
this end as often happens....Oh well!)
+++++++++
Sir Edward Greville Knighted 13/10/1513
Ashley Manor and interests at Charlton Kings (Cheltenham, GLS) were
surrendered to Edward (Sir) Greville #(D1224 No13) from John Westby (Edward
Tame actually owned them D1224 No 8 c1503) and Sir Edward was still in
possession in 1520 when he mortgaged them for £400. His wife Ann (nee
Denton) and Son & heir John (whose1st wife was Elianor/Alinore nee Verney)
also went guarantors of mortgage repayment (D1224 No15&16) Above Manor &
interests were transferred to Robert Grevill and his heirs in c1520. Will
made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2).
+++++++++
re Edwards 2nd wife you say existed:
Would you be able to advise me where I can find (online if possible) any
details telling of Edward Grevilles second wife, as this is my wife's family
line and I have nothing of a second wife after his first wife Dame Anne (nee
Denton), who I show died about one year (13/10/1529) after Sir Edward
Greville.
Any further information would be greatly appreciated.
+++++++++++
re Robert Greville mentioned above:
Upon Marriage to Margaret (nee Arle), he gained Arle Court. Eventually it
passed to his brother William (Judge of Common Pleas) Approx 1520, Sir
Edward Greville transferred the Charlton Kings and Ashley Manor properties
to Robert. Will dated 7/2/1548 and was proved before 25th March 1548 (GRO
1548/76) Buried inside of Parish church Charlton Kings although there was a
family vault at Cheltenham.(CK 1548/9) Surname also shown as "Grevyle" on
will.
+++++++++++
regards
John H
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1151074634....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
John H
Further to my previous posting,
I show in my wife's Greville tree, that an Agnes Greville was married to Sir
Edmund Tame
and said Agnes was sister of Sir Edward Greville.
Both being children of John Greville and Lady Ann (nee Forster).
regards John H
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1151074634....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Scope and Content
Bargain and sale for Ł24:
Extent and Form: 1
Location of Originals
Copies Information
Photocopy 785.
Scope and Content
Exchange:
(i) Fr. Thos. Docwra
To deliver seisin.
Reference: CC57/00362
Creation dates: 1900
Access Conditions
Public
Reproduction Conditions
Scope and Content
Photographer: Henry W Taunt
Period and
Monument type: Medieval Church
Component term: Nave
Style: Perpendicular
Reference: CC57/00366
Access Conditions
Public
Reproduction Conditions
Scope and Content
Photographer: Henry W Taunt
Period and
Scope and Content
worth Ł3.0.13d p.a.
1 messuage & 3ľ virgates in Broadwell &Hill in tenure John Woodford,
worth Ł4.18.4d p.a.
1 messuage & 2Ľ virgates in Hill in the tenure of Robert Macok, worth
Ł2.2.11d p.a.
1 messuage & 2Ľ virgates in Leamington in the tenure of Joanna Clever,
worth Ł1.16.9˝d p.a.
1 messuage & 1˝ virgates in Leamington in the tenure of Richard Clark,
worth Ł1.10.1˝d p.a.
1 messuage & 2˝ virgates in Hill in the tenure of Henry Clever, worth
Ł2.10.1˝d p.a.
1 messuage & 2 virgates in Hill in the tenure of William Pullar, worth
Ł2.0.1˝d p.a.
1 close called Beneyard & 2 virgates in Hardwick, in tenure Henry
Bedyll, worth Ł2.0.1˝d p.a.
1˝ virgates in the tenure of John Manne, worth Ł1.9.1˝d p.a.
1 messuage & 1Ľ virgates in Broadwell in the tenure of John Samond,
worth Ł1.5.1˝d p.a.
The manor of Grandborough in the tenure of John Faringday [?] and
Richard Brye, worth Ł25 p.a.
Humphrey Stafford died 22 September last [i.e. 1545] and the heir and
nearest kin is his son Humphrey Stafford, esq, aged 39 and above.
The jurors declare that the annual value of Leamington Hastings is Ł20
and that it is held in chief of the King for 1 knight's fee.
The Manor of Burton and lands are worth Ł9.10s p.a. and are held of
Queen Katherine.
The Manors of Broadwell & Hill, with lands, are worth [torn ms] and are
held of Edward Oneley, esq. as of the manor of Catesby, for service and
10d p.a.
The Manor of Grandborough and lands in Calcutt & Rowdon are worth
Ł23.6s p.a. and are held of the King as part of the estates of the
al...@mindspring.com
Catalogue Ref. D269/A
Creator(s):
Coxwell-Rogers family of Dowdeswell
Rogers, Coxwell- family of Dowdeswell
Rogers family of Dowdeswell, Gloucestershire
Coxwell family of Ablington, Gloucestershire
Beale family of Temple Guiting, Gloucestershire
Browne family of Salperton, Gloucestershire
Manorial, estate and family records of the ROGERS and
COXWELL-ROGERS family of Dowdeswell.
LEGAL
Dowdeswell manor: various cases.
Copies of deeds and public records
FILE [no title] - ref. D269/A/L2/4/19 - date: 1544,
1766
hit[from Scope and Content] Transcript of
Inquisition Post Mortem of Sir Edmund Tame, Kt., 1544, with receipt for
search fee.
Should be interesting if anyone can get it.
Doug
al...@mindspring.com
from History of Fairford Manor at
http://www.fairford.org/TownCouncil/History/ManorHistory.html:
"Fairford Manor (really a parcel of land not a house) was Crown
property from early times. During the Norman Conquest, Fairford was
held by a Saxon noble, Britric. He refused to marry Matilda, Count
Baldwin's daughter. When she later married William of Normandy she
became the first Queen of England. She demanded all of Britric's land
and possessions.
The estate remained royal property for the next 600 years, unlike most
of the Coln Valley villages which passed to the church. In the 15th
century the manor was held by the Earls of Warwick. They built a manor
house which became the administrative centre where the old court was
held. In 1478 the Warwick lands, including Fairford, came to King
Edward IV.
In 1487, Henry VII leased the estate to John Tame, a wealthy wool and
cloth merchant of Cirencester. The old manor house had fallen into
disrepair, and he built a new house to the south of the church, and was
living in Fairford by the mid 1480's. During the 1490's he rebuilt the
church, which was re-consecrated in 1497 and dedicated to St. Mary the
Virgin. The chief glory of the church was the magnificent set of
stained glass windows illustrating the Christian faith.
When John Tame died in 1513, his son Edmund Tame, who had become rich
and influential, was associated with the court of Henry VIII, and was
knighted in 1516. Henry VIII visited Fairford in 1520, staying at the
Tame manor house from August 26th until September 2nd. During this
visit he appointed Edmund Tame "steward for life of the lordship of
Fairford and also knighted Sir Edmund's son, also Edmund. It is thought
that Henry VIII attended Mass in church on 28th August, and would have
seen the new windows in all their splendour.
Sir Edmund Tame the younger died in 1544, and the male line of the Tame
family died with him. The Tame manor house was neglected, but Fairford
estate still belonged to the Crown until sold by Queen Elizabeth. It
was bought by Robert Tracey, who fought on the side of the King in the
Civil War, and consequently had to pay a large fine to Cromwell, and
had to sell the Fairford lands to pay the fine.
The now dilapidated manor was bought by Andrew Barker in 1650. He
didn't repair the manor house, but in 1661 built a fine new house in
the Park, to the north of the church."
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< I show in my wife's Greville tree, that an Agnes Greville was married to
Sir
Edmund Tame
and said Agnes was sister of Sir Edward Greville.
Both being children of John Greville and Lady Ann (nee Forster).
regards John H >>
John what is the source for
1) naming Edmund's wife Agnes and
2) making her a Greville?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< re Robert Greville mentioned above:
Upon Marriage to Margaret (nee Arle), he gained Arle Court. Eventually it
passed to his brother William (Judge of Common Pleas) Approx 1520, Sir
Edward Greville transferred the Charlton Kings and Ashley Manor properties
to Robert. Will dated 7/2/1548 and was proved before 25th March 1548 (GRO
1548/76) Buried inside of Parish church Charlton Kings although there was a
family vault at Cheltenham.(CK 1548/9) Surname also shown as "Grevyle" on
will. >>
With such an early property transfer, this Robert must be his brother ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
John H
down his sources in a lot of cases, I can only answer that it appears to
have come from IGI , BUT the only one I see on IGI is an ancestral file,
which are notoriously inaccurate.
Do you have Edward Tames wife as someone different or are you just wanting
confirmation of what I posted,
assuming you disagree, then please advise on what basis you disagree, so I
can see details and if necessary change my database to correct data.
regards
John H
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:4f6.194765...@aol.com...
John H
Robert Greville c1465 to 7th Feb 1548, who was transferred the Charlton
Kings & Ashley Manor by Sir Edward
was the son of Richard Greville and Eleanor Herbert, and thus not a brother
of Sir Edward.
re Robert, (Sir Edwards brother).
The Robert who was Sir Edward's brother was the husband of Isabel Wyncott
"this" Robert died ?? Sept. 1549 (Buried in Chancellry of Ebourton/Elberton
GLS, along with his wife Isabel)
Roberts Will dated 4/9/1549 proven (1549/181)
++++++
Now back to Edward & the Robert he transferred the land to:
Firstly Edwards line (as I have it).
1)William Greville (Chipping Campden )died 14012)Ludovic Greville
(buried St Peters Drayton church in Alabaster tomb) died 28/8/1438
3)William Greville (also buried St Peters church Drayton in bell tower area)
died c1440 (Justice of the common pleas)
4)Rafe (Ralph /Rudolph) Greville died 1499 Wroxton, Oxon
5)John Greville (Milcote Warks)died c1503/4
6)Sir Edward Greville died c1528/9 buried West church upon Avon Warks.
(Will made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2)).
Robert's Line to whom above Sir Edward transferred said lands etc.
(according to what I have)
1)William Greville died 1401(Wool merchant, buried & brass in St James
Church Chipping Campden)
2)Ludovic Greville (buried St Peters Drayton church in alabaster
tomb/casket ) died 28/8/1438
3)John Greville died Lymington/Lemington GLS
4)Richard Greville died c1513 Lymington/Lemington GLS
5)Robert Greville died 7th Feb 1548 Charlton Kings GLS (husband of Margaret
Arle)
So at a guess (if I worked it out correctly) that means
Robert is the second cousin once removed of Sir Edward.
OR
Sir Edward is the second cousin of Robert once removed.
regards
John H
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:4ee.1db5fb...@aol.com...
Douglas Richardson
I believe there were two Sir Edmund Tames in succession, they being
father and son. I believe the elder Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford,
Gloucestershire, died in 1534, as per his brass. He was married twice.
He appears to have been survived by a wife named Elizabeth, as
indicated by the Chancery Proceeding item below dated 1544-1551:
C 1/1128/50-51: Thomas, John and Edward, sons of Anthony HUNGREFORD,
knight, and others, v. Thomas BRUDENELL, knight, executor of Elizabeth,
late the wife of Edmund Tame, knight.: Legacies of sheep.: GLOUCESTER.
Date: 1544-1551 [Source: National Archives catalogue,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp).
I believe the younger Sir Edmund Tame was married to Katherine Dennis.
The younger Sir Edmund Tame appears to have had no issue. His heir was
his sister, Margaret Tame, who married in 1528 Sir Humphrey Stafford.
I note that Sir Edward Greville's will dated 1528 mentions his sister,
Elizabeth, and his brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame. It is tempting to
think that Sir Edward Greville's sister was Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Edmund Tame, named in the Chancery record above. By any chance, do you
have any particulars on Elizabeth, wife of Sir Edmund Tame?
One other question for John: In your posts, you have twice referred to
a source for Sir Edward Greville and his first wife, Anne Denton, which
you have identified only as D1224. What is this source?
al...@mindspring.com
pps 264-269:
"The estate later called the manor of UPTON originated as the portion
settled by William de Breuse (d. 1211) on the marriage of his daughter
Bertha to William Beauchamp, lord of Elmley Castle (Worcs.); (fn. 5) in
1221 Reynold de Breuse confirmed a large estate, described as a moiety
of Tetbury manor, to William's son Walter (fn. 6) (d. 1235). It passed
to Walter's son William (d. 1269) and to William's son (fn. 7) William
Beauchamp, earl of Warwick (d. 1298), who sold it to his tenant John de
Thorndon. (fn. 8) In 1386 Upton manor was held for life by Edith, widow
of a later John de Thorndon, with remainder to Robert of Charlton and
his wife Catherine. (fn. 9) In 1442 Alice Thorndon held it in dower.
(fn. 10) It was later acquired by John Limerick, whose widow Elizabeth
and her husband Henry Ketelby held it in 1499 when John's brother and
heir, William Limerick, sold the reversion to Edmund Tame (fn. 11) of
Fairford. Edmund (d. 1534) left it to his wife Elizabeth (fn. 12) who
died in 1545. (fn. 13) Her son Edmund had died without issue and at a
partition made among his three sisters in 1547 Upton manor was assigned
to Alice, who married Thomas Verney of Compton Verney (Warws.). (fn.
14) Alice died in 1549 and Thomas in 1557, (fn. 15) and the manor
passed to their son Sir Richard Verney (d. 1567) and to Sir Richard's
son George (fn. 16) (d. 1574), whose heir Richard was a minor. (fn. 17)
In 1597 Richard Verney, the elder, and Richard Verney, the younger,
conveyed Upton to George Huntley (fn. 18) of Frocester, later Sir
George, who alienated most of the land. (fn. 19) The manor and the
small estate remaining (fn. 20) descended with Woodchester (fn. 21)
until 1844 when Earl Ducie sold it with Charlton manor and 943 a.,
lying mainly in Charlton, to R. S. Holford of Westonbirt. (fn. 22) The
land was sold by the Westonbirt estate in the mid 1920s (fn. 23) but
the trustees of Sir George Holford were still regarded as lords of the
two manors in 1939. (fn. 24)"
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Also that Edmund was married to Elizabeth and that their were three
heiresses.
WJho...@aol.com
al...@mindspring.com writes:
<< "The estate later called the manor of UPTON originated as the portion
settled by William de Breuse (d. 1211) on the marriage of his daughter
Bertha to William Beauchamp, lord of Elmley Castle (Worcs.); (fn. 5) in
1221 Reynold de Breuse confirmed a large estate, described as a moiety
of Tetbury manor, to William's son Walter (fn. 6) (d. 1235). It passed
to Walter's son William (d. 1269) and to William's son (fn. 7) William
Beauchamp, earl of Warwick (d. 1298), >>
Is "Walcheline" a variant form of Walter ?
Thanks
Will
John H
I have looked at the notes under Sir Edward that show the D1224 etc and I
(having inherited this databse as previously stated) get the impressionthat
the d1224 followed by opther numbers appears to be a mortgage number for the
vasrious transactions that Anne and son John were guarantors.
Now where it came from I dont know, but further down there is the following
(U269 T246/2), which appears to refer to a document from A2A
A search on A2A using Edward Greville brought up many similar references.
I will attempt to locate where Brother in Law got this D1224 from and if I
locate source I will advise through group.
re Elizabeth Tame, nothing showing an Elizabeth Tame or an Elizabeth married
to a Edmund Tame, but the B in Law didnt diverge passed the direct line
much.
DR said:
> I believe the younger Sir Edmund Tame was married to Katherine Dennis.
> The younger Sir Edmund Tame appears to have had no issue. His heir was
> his sister, Margaret Tame, who married in 1528 Sir Humphrey Stafford.
Data in this database seems to agree with statement above , although it only
shows a Katherine without a surname, rest matches, including dying out of
male Tame line after the Edward who died in c1544..
re Elizabeth Greville, sister mentioned in Sir Edwards Will of 1528/9, for
what its worth, this database shows Elizabeth born ?? died c 1545 married to
Thomas Neville with son John Neville. No sources or other notes except that
he states "Elizabeth inherited the Manor of Tetbury".
Other siblings of Elizabeth shown are
Ann Greville married to Thomas Denton (Brother of Anne Denton)
[Denton children's father shown as John Robert Thomas Denton who Lived
Armesden, Buckinghamshire, Eng. with wife Isabell Browne]
Agnes Greville married to Edmund Tame
Sir Edward Greville married to Anne Denton (sister of Thomas Denton, also
shows an Isabel Denton married to unknown Greville)
Robert Greville married to Isabel Wyncott
Boy you guys are getting me to look in areas I havent ever looked before and
I see a lot of work needed to get missing sources etc .
regards
John H
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1151424854.0...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< re Elizabeth Greville, sister mentioned in Sir Edwards Will of 1528/9, for
what its worth, this database shows Elizabeth born ?? died c 1545 married to
Thomas Neville with son John Neville. No sources or other notes except that
he states "Elizabeth inherited the Manor of Tetbury".
Other siblings of Elizabeth shown are
Ann Greville married to Thomas Denton (Brother of Anne Denton)
[Denton children's father shown as John Robert Thomas Denton who Lived
Armesden, Buckinghamshire, Eng. with wife Isabell Browne] >>
Since you mentioned sources, you might check this Thomas Neville with son
John against www.genealogics.org
I'm showing Thomas' wife was Anne Greville, dau of Robert Greville of
Charringworth, and I think that's where I got it from.
Will
John H
I agree Leo shows Anne Greville's (wife of Thomas Neville) father as Robert
Greville as you state
but he shows no details for that Robert, so cant check his parentage from
Leo's site.
The database I have, shows a Thomas Neville with the same three wives as you
& Leo show,
it shows that Thomas's parents as Sir Henry Neville and Joan Bourchier who
were married at Raby, Durham
c1466/1467, Sir Henry dying at battle of Edgcote field, Banbury Oxon 27 July
1469. Joan died 7/10/1470 Mathon Worc.
The Anne Greville you speak of is, (according to this database) Sir Edward
Greville's brother Robert Greville's child (wife Isabel Wyncott), this Anne
also married a Thomas Neville and also had a son John Neville, (so the two
Thomas's appear to be mixed up). This John Neville born c1540 died c1618
married Alice Rydall and had a son Francis Neville born c 1575 died c 1664
married Mary "Unknown Surname". This Francis Neville and Mary also had a son
John Neville born c1606 married Joan Shelley of Yopxnall Staffs, of which no
"dob" or "dod" shown in database. This couple had a son Thomas Neville who
married a Anne Bulkeley at Shenstone park. Staffs etc etc
John & Alice nee Rydall (from Leo's site) also shows a son named Fulke,
(which is a common given name in this Greville family).
This database is missing that Fulke one.
This database also has this Anne (nee Greville) Neville, marrying a Raufe
Westcote after death of Thomas Neville in 1546.
The Robert Greville on Leo's site matches as Anne Greville's father, this
Robert Greville, was Sir Edward and Elizabeths sibling (Brother).
Thus the Anne Greville and Thomas Neville of which you speak and is on Leos
site, is one generation down from what I was speaking of.
What I have for those people, I believe matches what Leo has, only it is
NOT the same Thomas Neville of which I posted, married to Sir Edwards sister
Elizabeth.
++++++++++++
Now this database shows another Thomas Neville marrying Elizabeth Greville
(the Elizabeth who was Sir Edwards sister mentioned in his will of 1528/9)
and this Elizabeth inherited the manor of Tetbury and it is this Thomas
Neville of whom I posted., NOT the one from Leo's site
This couple had a John Neville of whom no marriage and/or issue is shown
this database.
So which, I guess, leaves the question....Who were the parents of Thomas
Neville married to Sir Edward's sister Elizabeth?.
I dont have any parents in this database. So is it a duplication or not?
Crikey! this is going in circles!!
I wish some of those families would stop marrying into each other multiple
times,
but I guess they married to people in their own social/class circles.
regards
John H
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:313.7852f8...@aol.com...
Douglas Richardson
Below is what I have on the Thomas Neville, Esq. (died 1546), who was
the husband of Anne Greville. This Thomas Neville, Esq., has been
proposed in times past as a possible ancestor of the Winslow family of
Mayflower fame. The connection, if one exists, has never been
satisfactorily worked out.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) and Douglas
Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
NEVILLE FAMILY
I. THOMAS NEVILLE, Esq., of Binholme (in Pershore) and Mathon,
Worcestershire, Justice of the Peace for Worcestershire, 1511, Sheriff
of Staffordshire, 1511 and 1516, 2nd son of Henry (or Harry) Neville,
Knt. (died 1469), of Isenhampstead, Berkshire, by Joan (or Jane),
daughter of John Bourgchier, Knt., K.G., 1st Lord Berners. He married
(1st) ANNE WESTERDALE. They had no issue. He married (2nd) LETTICE
HARCOURT, widow of Humphrey Peshale, Esq. (died 28 May 1498), of Tean
(in Checkley), Staffordshire [see BRESSEY 11]. They had three
daughters, including Ellen (wife of Kenelm Bucke). He married (3rd)
ANNE GREVILLE, daughter of Robert Greville, of Charringworth,
Gloucestershire. They had one son, John. Thomas was a legatee in the
1512 will of his uncle, Thomas Bourgchier, Knt. THOMAS NEVILLE died in
1546. Modern descendants (not traced in this book).
References:
Nash, Colls. for the Hist. of Worcestershire 2 (1782): 19. Brydges,
Collins' Peerage of England 4 (1812): 428-453. Whitaker, Hist. of
Richmondshire 2 (1823): facing 78 (Latimer pedigree). Rowland, Noble
Fam. of Nevill (1830). Surtees, Hist. & Antiqs. of Durham 4 (1840):
158-163 (Nevill pedigrees). Glover, Vis. of Staffordshire 1583
(Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3(2)) (1883): 116 (Nevill pedigree: "Thomas
Nevill of Mathon in the Countye of Worcester, Esqr, seconde sonne; had
3 wives. = Anne, da. of Rob'te Grevill of Charingworth in the Countye
of Gloucester, Esqr; thirde wife."). Burke, Gen. & Heraldic Hist. of
the Landed Gentry 2 (1939): 1674.
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< The Anne Greville you speak of is, (according to this database) Sir Edward
Greville's brother Robert Greville's child (wife Isabel Wyncott), this Anne
also married a Thomas Neville and also had a son John Neville, (so the two
Thomas's appear to be mixed up). >>
Actually it *is* possible to check this as Leo is showing as his source
"Burke's Landed Gentry". If your database has no sources for it's information,
then you might want to check Burke's and copy out what it says, then post it
"with quotes" and cite it and then you'll be on slightly firmer ground.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< What I have for those people, I believe matches what Leo has, only it is
NOT the same Thomas Neville of which I posted, married to Sir Edwards sister
Elizabeth. >>
Without any sources, it's all very tentative isn't it?
Hard to speak of certainties or even possibilities without anything
whatsoever to back up your statements :)
John H
Another possiblity is a catalogue number for A2A.
Anyone got any thoughts on what it is?
regards
John H
"John H" <John...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44a2a...@news.chariot.net.au...
WJho...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
<< Still looking re D1224
Another possiblity is a catalogue number for A2A.
Anyone got any thoughts on what it is? >>
If it's A2A then he has misplaced the punctuation.
There are cataloges like D1/.... or D12/...
A better way to find it, would be to search on the names within that document
John H
No doubt I would, but I dont have access to "Burke's landed Gentry" unless
you can advise me
where (preferably online) I can get access. I am not domiciled in England,
and local libraries arent really "in to" English genealogical history.
BTW I didn't (as I said) disagree with Leo's data at all, just no father
was shown for Robert, so didnt know his parents other than those I show.
all other data was as Leo showed.
From Leo's site reference, it suggests that this is where Burke stopped, at
Robert ...jie no parents shown on Leo's site.
I also note that in the past, people on this group have suggested to me and
others, that "Burke's landed gentry in Ireland" is not a very reliable
source, SO are the England ones any better?
When I got that Irish data from an English professional researcher, it cost
an "arm and a leg".
I find most ground in those times is fairly boggy, and will always look for
more solid ground.
If you took my statement to mean this database I have is more correct, then
it definitely was not intended as such, as I dont know who (if any are
correct), I wasnt around at the time and can't give definite first hand
knowledge to the discussion.
Therefore I (and I suggest also you and others on this group) rely on those
gone before us who researched data available to them in their era. There may
be more or less data around on a subject in 2006, which was not available to
the original presenter in their time, which would vary the result.
I find that there are many very knowledgeable people on this group with much
more knowledge than myself (L plate), I am learning to crawl, then walk ,
then run (genealogically speaking), so appreciate any help from "the
learned".
I am quite open to you or anyone else to post contradictory data to the
group, rather than just saying "prove it".
for instance, you give the impression that you have the material from
Burkes "Landed gentry", if so, then why not post it so I and others can see
it,
rather than keep it to yourself. You no doubt have access to sources of
which I have no knowledge or access at this time.
I have not at this time personally the availability of time to go through
and read every bit of paper (a full four drawer filing cabinet), looking for
where a particular piece of data came from. I would love to have time to
do that, and perhaps will do so in time.
Thus I am presenting things as shown in this database I inherited and I do
know that the people who worked on it, spent many years in record offices in
England, finding the material, and I wouldn't discount anything until proven
so by a very reliable source and hopefully a primary one.
Getting a database where a lot of sources arent written down in it, isnt
helpful I know, but I doubt that any database exists that "was purrfect in
every way", otherwise none of us would be looking for anything, it would all
be there 100% correct.
Unless I put what is in this database to the group, (apart from searching
internet & other places for the data, which I also do), I am never going to
know how accurate it maybe. I dont claim it is perfect, but I take it as
correct until disproven ( I do have a very open mind you know). When I post
data I have in this database, I dont post it as unchangeable fact, but only
what is in this database.
The other option would be for me to assume everything is false, and "start
from scratch" myself , I consider this option is "damn stupid" when others
before me have done a lot of hard work albeit it may not be 100% correct,
(what & who ever is).
As with most discussions on this group, different people (including
yourself), consider different sources more accurate than others and have
quite spirited debate about same. I note what ALL say in discussion,
discounting nothing, and then make my own judgement as to which I will use,
I may be right or wrong in any decison I make but I stick with it until
proven otherwise.
regards
John H
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:386.62f7c0...@aol.com...
WJho...@aol.com
step in the right direction versus "no" source.
Certainly Burke's is flawed as are all sources, and maybe more than the top
ten, lets say, but its better than "my brother-in-law said so" as a source.
Don't you agree :)
As for what libraries carry it, I don't know if its online, you can "google
books" for it to see, but Burke's Landed Gentry is a very well-represented
volume in the US. They even have a copy in my tiny Santa Cruz library which is
only servicing a city of 70K or so. Just as an example.
Will Johnson
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> I dont have access to "Burke's landed Gentry" unless you can advise me
> where (preferably online) I can get access.
Nigel Batty-Smith advertises four out-of-copyright versions on CDROM at:
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/shop/peerage.html
Burke, of course, himself gives no information as to his sources but
usually he got his material from the families concerned, some (most,
even) of whom had to pay to have their entry included. So the quality
is a bit variable. And some families might be in one edition and not in
another and with changed information in a third.
Stirnet say that they got most of their information from Burkes various
volumes so they can be used as an on-line guide to what is in Burke:
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
John H
John H
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
news:6101f83...@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
Douglas Richardson
The number, D1224, reminds me of catalogue numbers typically used by
the Gloucestershire Record Office. If so, I don't think that an
abstract of this particular document is available yet in the A2A
Catalogue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
John H
It may just be a good possibilty as he and an English relly spendt asome
considerable time in GLS record office getting information in the 1990'snews:1151683042.0...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...