Trusted Sources
Ginny Wagner
Giles:
"Archbishops of Dublin:
"John Cumin, at the coronation of Richard, ii. 348
"Henry of London, one of the witnesses to John's [of Dublin] charter
of submission, ii. 545; on John's side at Runnymede, ii, 589; named in
Magna Charta, ii 590; letters of patent of, given as security to the
clergy for the performance of Magna Charta, ii. 60
"Luke, chaplain of Hubert de Burgh, had been intruded by him into the
see, v. 531; his only friend at his fall, iii.222, 229; induces the
king to allow Hubert some delay, iii. 226; intercedes for him, iii.
229; blind for several years, v. 531; his death, ib.
"Ralph of Norwich, elected, but quashed, v. 560;
"Fulk de Saundford (called Basset, see the note), established in the
see, v. 591; at the parliament in Lent, 1257, v. 625; his steward,
W.[William] de Gorham, in Ireland during the Welsh war, vi. 375.
And, from the text, 375:
"Temporibus quoque sub eisdem, stabiliuntur prospere in
archipraesulatibus suis Dublinensis, scilicet magister Fulco Basset
[1], et Eboracensis, magister Sewalo, Domino manum apponente, post
multas ipsorum episcopatuum vastationes irrestaurabilies. Et sic
regis auctoritas, eo ipso procurante, cum regni dignitate diatim
declinavit."
In the margin beside this paragraph: "AD. 1256. The archbishops of
Dublin and York established in their sees."
"[fn1] "This is Fulk de Saundford; I suspect "Basset" is a confusion
made by Paris with the Bp. of London."
It seems funny to me that Paris, who was probably at his peak ca.
1256, (since his work began 1235, when Wendover ended, until 1273,
presumably when Paris died) would have confused Fulk de Saundford and
Basset. He certainly would have been near the center of English
Church and state matters and, being on the road to Rome, would have
had the travellers stopping in who would have imparted pretty good
gossip and information.
Does anyone know anything about this remark or footnote? From what
I've gathered ... and I would love to be corrected if I'm operating
under misunderstandings ... Matthew Paris is very reliable. I don't
know about A. Giles from Corpus Christi College who, as translator,
one would assume made the comment in the footnote about Fulco Basset
specified by Paris, actually being Fulk de Saundford.
How would I even begin to verify which was correct?
Thanks in advance. Ginny Wagner
mj...@btinternet.com
SANDFORD, JOHN DE (d. 1294), archbishop of Dublin, was probably an
illegitimate son of the baronial leader, Gilbert Basset (d. 1241), or
of his brother Fulk Basset, bishop of London from 1241 until his death
in 1259, a prelate who was prominent during the troubles of Henry III.s
reign. John was a nephew of Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271), the justiciar.
He first appears as an official of Henry III. in Ireland and of Edward
I. in both England and Ireland; he was appointed dean of St Patricks,
Dublin, in 1275. In 1284 he was chosen archbishop of Dublin in
succession to John of Darlington; some, however, objected to this
choice and Sandford resigned his claim; but was elected a second time
while he was in Rome, and returning to Ireland was allowed to take up
the office. In 1288, during a time of great confusion, the archbishop
acted as governor of Ireland. In 1290 he resigned and returned to
England. Sandford served Edward I. in the great case over the
succession to the Scottish throne in 1292 and also as an envoy to the
German king, Adolph of Nassau, and the princes of the Empire. On his
return from Germany he died at Yarmouth on the 2nd of October 1294.
Sandfords elder brother, Fulk (d. 1271), was also archbishop of Dublin.
He is called Fulk de Sandford and also Fulk Basset owing to his
relationship to the Bassets. Having been archdeacon of Middlesex and
treasurer and chancellor of St Pauls Cathedral, London, he was
appointed archbishop of Dublin by Pope Alexander IV. in 1256. He took
some slight part in. the government of Ireland under Henry III. and
died at Finglas on the 4th of May 1271.
(This suggests that it is the editor who was mistaken in thinking Paris
had slipped up.)
Michael
Ginny Wagner
appreciative. Ginny Wagner
mj...@btinternet.com
I meant to reference my source for the above as the 1911 Encyclopaedia
Britannica, but figure you guessed that anyway.
MAR
Paul Mackenzie
Thanks very much for the above information. The following references may
be of some significance.
undated
Charter of feoffment, whereby Nicholas de Sanford grants, &c. to Sir
Laurence de Sanford his brother, and his heirs, for his homage and
service, all his manor of Estune in the county of Buckingham, which he
held of the gift of John de Sanford formerly his father, reserving a
yearly rent of 4d. Witn. Sir Philip Basset, Master Thomas Cumyn, Sir
William Dyre, Sir Oliver de Ingham, Sir Roger de Sanford, Sir Adam de
Dutton, Sir William Eyvile(?). Sir Ranulph de Mundeville, Thomas le
Blunt, Adam de la Ford, Alan de Esefeld, John de Merden, and others.
Seal of green wax, containing a sheild, barry wavy of six: legend
"S.Ni...lai de Saunford" (undated)
CTG 6:351
1271
By a deed dated on Monday next after the feast of St. Mark, 55 Hen 111,
Beatrix de Turberville released to Hawysia de Sanford five marks
annually rent, part of 10 l. which the said Beatrix was entitled to
receive annually by way of dower out of Melbury, under a settlement made
by a fine between Fulk Basset, Bishop of London, and said Beatrix.
Witness, Nicholas Bretun, Aval de Rocheford, Ad. Foliot, and others.
Hawisa de Sanford is described on her monumental brass in the church as
daughter of the Lord Basset. and from the terms of this deed she seems
to be the owner of this manor. Fulke Basset, bishop of London, mentioned
in the deed, was also Lord Basset of Wycombe.
Hutchins - History of Dorset 2:656
1297
Hawisw de Samford, wife or widow of Sir Lawrence Samford presented as
patron to the church of Melbury Samford
CTG 6:334-361.
CTG ---Collectanea Topograhica Genealogica.
Kind Regards
Paul
mj...@btinternet.com
Thanks Paul
Ginny Wagner
appreciative. And yes, Michael ... the plot does thicken.
This is probably easy for you guys, but <the gift of John de
Sanford formerly his father> strikes me as rather odd. How
can someone be formerly his father? Does that mean the
former John de Sanford, his father? And why would Beatrix
be entitled to a fee? Did Fulk have to put her aside since
Bishops couldn't be married if they wanted advancement? Was
she Fulk's wife or mistress -- can we tell from the charters
below?
If I understand Paul and Michael's posts properly:
1. Gilbert Basset (d. 1241)
2. Fulk de Saundford/Basset bishop of London (1241-d.1259)
3. Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271) justicar Henry III
(1.or 2.)1. Fulk de Sandford/Basset/Wycombe (d. 1271)
Archbishop of Dublin
m. Beatrix Turberville/Basset
(1.or 2.)2. John de Sandford/Basset (d. 1294)
Archbishop of Dublin
(1.or2.)2.1. Nicolas de Sandford
(1.or2.)2.2. Sir Laurance de Sandford
m. Hawise de Samford (liv 1297)
I wonder where the Sir Roger who witnessed would fit in?
From CTG, Vol V, p. 199 with ... indicating unsure direct
lineage:
1. William de Gorham of Maine,
2. Geoffrey de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans (1119-1146)
3. [Olivia] de Gorham
m. Hugh, son of Humbald
4. Henry de Gorham
... 1.1 Ive de Gorham held Westwick ca. 1145
1.2 Robert de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans 1151-1166
1.3 Ralph de Gorham oc. ca. 1140, Lord of Sarret 1160
1.1.1. Geoffrey de Gorham held Westwick in 1166
1.3.1. Robert de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161
1.3.2. Geoffrey de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161
... 1.1.1.1. Sir Henry de Gorham oc. 1199 and ca. 1220
... 1.1.1.1.1. Sir William de Gorham
(the same mentioned as steward to Fulk?)
m. Cecilia de Sanford, Governess of Elenor,
sister of Henry III, died 23 July, 1251
buried at St. Albans
Sister to
Nicholas de Sanford, held Aston
Sanford 1234, d. 23 Jan. 1252 and ....
Gilbert de Sanford Lord of Great
Hormede,
Chamberlain to Queen Elenor, m. to
Lora,
d. 1250 who was father to:
Alicia de Sanford, who bought the
reversion
of Westwick 1307, died 1312 and was
married to Robert de Veer, 5th Earl
of Oxford,
Lord of Gt. Hormede, d. 1296
and she was mother to:
Alphonsus de Veer, Lord of
Great
Hormede 1297, of Aston Sanford
1316,
and of Westwick-Gorham ca.
1320.
GCG indicated an unknown female Gorham married Hugh but
_Some Descendants of Captain John Gorham of Plymouth Colony
in New York State and the Western Reserve_ Compiled by Helen
Hester King, B.S. and Linetta Ainsworth Daniels states
Geoffrey's sister, Olivia, came from Brittany to receive his
patronage. The next sentences are "The Manor [Westwick] was
willed to his sister, whose husband took the name, de
Gorham. She died without issue and the Manor and other
holdings eventually passed to the abbot's three nephews,
Ive, Robert, and Ralph, sons of his brother, William."
Please correct any misunderstandings or errors I have posted
herein.
Best,
Ginny Wagner
Todd A. Farmerie
> Another most helpful post, Paul, for which I am very
> appreciative. And yes, Michael ... the plot does thicken.
> This is probably easy for you guys, but <the gift of John de
> Sanford formerly his father> strikes me as rather odd. How
> can someone be formerly his father? Does that mean the
> former John de Sanford, his father? And why would Beatrix
> be entitled to a fee? Did Fulk have to put her aside since
> Bishops couldn't be married if they wanted advancement? Was
> she Fulk's wife or mistress -- can we tell from the charters
> below?
>
> If I understand Paul and Michael's posts properly:
>
> 1. Gilbert Basset (d. 1241)
> 2. Fulk de Saundford/Basset bishop of London (1241-d.1259)
> 3. Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271) justicar Henry III
>
> (1.or 2.)1. Fulk de Sandford/Basset/Wycombe (d. 1271)
> Archbishop of Dublin
> m. Beatrix Turberville/Basset
> (1.or 2.)2. John de Sandford/Basset (d. 1294)
> Archbishop of Dublin
>
>
> (1.or2.)2.1. Nicolas de Sandford
> (1.or2.)2.2. Sir Laurance de Sandford
> m. Hawise de Samford (liv 1297)
>
> I wonder where the Sir Roger who witnessed would fit in?
I think the 1911 Britannica (or their source) got hung up on the Basset
connection and forced them to be nephews of Philip through a Basset
father, when they were maternal nephews. The basis for this is several
reconstructions of the Bassets that I have seen that make Hawise, sister
of Philip Basset, wife of a Sandford. Likewise, I think the John who is
father of Laurence and Nicolas is not the Archbishop John.
I would suggest:
1. Gilbert Basset
2. Fulk Basset (not de Sandford, Lord Basset of WycombeBishop of London
3. Philip Basset
4. Hawise Basset married Laurence de Sandford, son of John and brother
of Nicolas
4.1. Fulk de Sandford alias Basset (not Wycombe, it was the uncle that
held that), Archbishop of Dublin
4.2. John de Sandford, alias Basset, Archbishop of Dublin
This would mean that Hawise must have lived to a goodly age (say, 90),
surviving her son Fulk by 26 years but that is not impossible,
considering his brother John lived a good while longer as well.
taf
Ginny Wagner
line. If I understand your post properly, you are saying
that Fulk Saundford and his brother, John, took the Basset
name ... their mother's 'maiden name' ... rather than the
father's surname? I wonder if it was a common occurrence in
Breton families or was it a more general decision by landed
gentry (I guess that is what you would call them) of all
descents to take the name of the more affluent family line?
Or maybe one can't even make a generalization about such a
thing. I also wonder if that meant they lived on Basset
property, became 'of Basset' rather than 'of Sanford or
Sandford or Saundford' property or manor. If the society
was one that was tied to the land as the most important
thing, I can certainly understand all names coming from the
land. The charters and cartularies were all about the land
and the income from the land so, one would suppose that the
things that were enshrined in law and documented for
posterity are the things that ranked highly in their
society.
Your suggestion that Hawise lived till she was 90 and that
her brother, John, was long-lived is certainly a
possibility; the advanced age does in no way disprove the
scenario you have suggested. I've got three different five
generation pictures in my family, none of which are of
children born before the mother reached the age of 20; i.e.,
most of my relatives live well into their 90s and
occasionally over 100.
Thanks so much for taking the time to correct my
misinterpretation. It is hard to get started when the basic
family structure is incorrectly aligned. Once some of the
key players are placed, further lines of descent may be
followed to a proper conclusion.
Respectfully,
Ginny Wagner
Todd A. Farmerie
connection - there was a Basset/Sandford marriage, but not Laurence and
Hawise (which, if nothing else, helps the chronology).
From a chart, p. xxxix in _Basset Charters, c. 1120 to 1250_, William
T. Reedy ed., Publications of the Pipe Roll Society, n.s. vol. 50,
London 1995
Alan Basset of Wycombe had:
1. Thomas, d. 1230
2. Gilbert, d. 1241, m. Isabel de Ferrers and had:
a. Gilbert, d. 1241.
3. Alice, m. John de Sandford
4. Fulk, Bishop of London, d. 1259
5. David
6. Warin, d. 1233
7. Philip, d 1271, m. H. de Gray, m.2 Ela, Countess of Warwick
a. Aline, m. Hugh Despenser, m.2 Roger Bigod
A Basset pedigree in History and Antiquities of Leicester, primarily
derived from a manuscript of William Dugdale, gives more detail on the
Basset/Sandford marriage:
"Alice, wife of Sir John Sandford, who was patron of the priory of
Blackmere, from whence is the earl of Oxford"
(this last perhaps a reference to the marriage of Robert de Vere, 5th
Earl of Oxford, to Alice de Sanford, daughter of Gilbert de Sanford, d.
1249.)
Of particular interest is the following, from The Catalogue formerly
known as PROCAT:
E 40/501
A. D. 1213-1234
Grant by William, the prior, and the canons of Blakemore. THe late Alan
de Sanford, son of the late knt. their patron, Sir John de Sanford, had
elected to be buried in their church near his forefathers, and SIr
Gilbert Basset, uncle (advunculus) of the same Alan, had converted to
their use 30 acres which lady Alice de Snford held of them in
Alfladewike, for the "remedium" of his said deceased grandson and knt;.
and by this and other largesses the said Gilbert, with their said patron
and lady Alice his wife, have cuased their church to have perpetual
memory of the deceased. Wherefore they grant to Gilbert and his heirs
the right of presenting one canon, whom they shall be bound to admit;
such canon to be called the 'Basset' canon. Witnesses:- Sir Fulk Basset,
provost of Beverley, Sir John de Sanford, Sir Thomas Basset, and Sir
Warin, brothers, Sir Adam de Periton, Sir Robert de Wattevile, Sir
Thomas de Gulafre, Sir Geoffrey de Bidefor, Gilbert de Sanford.
This is a little confusing, particularly the "of the said deceased
grandson and knt" part. However, it shows that Alice had at least one
son, Alan, and I would suggest that Gilbert and Sir John are also her
sons.
This appears to give Gilbert Basset an earlier wife, Alice, prior to his
marriage to Isabel de Ferrers. The provost of Beverley is presumably
the future Bishop of London, while Thomas Basset and his brother Warin
are also the so-named siblings of Alice.
We have already seen Philip serving as witness for a grant of Nicolas de
Sandford, son of John to his brother Laurence, and here are a few more
Basset/Sandford interactions:
E 40/199
41 Hen. III
Demise by Sir Laurence de Saunford to Sir James de Aldateles, for his
life, of all land he held at Wymabank, Newhall, and Hesinglinton, for
20/. yearly, to be paid at Burncester at Sir James' cost, the first tem
to being at Easter, 41 Henry III.; and for this demise Sir James has
paid 25/. Witnesses:- Sirs Philip Basset, William Lungspere, Henry de
Baton, Henry de Mar, Hugh Dispenser, William de Insula, William de
Gorham, and others (named) Endorsed: Inter Laur's de Samford et Jacob'
de Audel.' Chesh
E 40/4636
London, feast of St. Gregory, 45 Henry III.
Letters patent by Hawisia de Saumford, acknowledging the receipt from
Sir Philip Basset and the executors of Sir Laurence de Samford, her late
husband, of a charter of feoffment of Dauntesye, made to the said
Laurence by Sir Gilbert de Dauntesye, and of a charter of confirmation
thereof by Sir Gilbert de Dauntesye, and of a charter of confirmation
thereof by Sir Richard de Dauntesye; also of the chirograph made between
the said Sir Laurence and Gilbert of land in Dauntesye, Bremelham,
Wivelesford &c. and of the letter of attorney by the said Glbert to give
seisin to the said Laurence of the manor of Dauntesye: [Wilts.]
E 40/2595
[A.D. 1227-1243.]
Grant by Hubert de Burgo, Earl of Kent, to Philip Basset of his messuage
of Biestun with the circuit of the same manor, which remained to him
above the extent of the said manor which he made to Philip in exchange
for the manor of Crokestun which he had formerly given him. Witnesses:_
Sirs Gilbert and Nicholas de Sandford, Henry de Wintersell, William de
Gorham, and others (named): [Middx.]
Based on this, I would tentatively add Nicolas and Laurence to the list
of children of Alice Basset and John de Sandford. The only problem here
is the marriage of Laurence to a Hawise, who, apparently a widow in 1297
fits more comfortably in the generation after Philip and Alice Basset,
is herself called daughter of Lord Basset. She would appear to derive
from a more distant branch of that family. (I don't have handy access to
the appropriate volume of CP - How many Lord Bassets were there at the
time?)
The next entry of interest, another with Sandford witnessing for Basset:
E 40/844
(A.D.1245-1259)
Grant by William . . . to Sir Philip Basset, of lands called 'Ayswelle,'
'Tenakeresh(e)gge,' &c., in Boytun, in Finchingefeld parish.
Witnesses:-Sir Gilbert de Sanford, Master Fulk de Sanford, treasurer of
St. Paul's, London, Sir Ralph de Ardern, Sir Geoffrey Neirenut, and
others (named). (Essex)
Here, in Master Fulk de Sandford, I suspect we have the future
Archbishop of Dublin. He would have owed his position as treasurer to
his presumed uncle, Bishop Fulk Basset. (That his uncle was his patron
in advancement would have, perhaps, provided the impetus to use his
uncle's surname - it would have reaffirmed the connection.) I suggest
we place him, too, as son of a John and Alice. As to Archbishop John, I
am not so sure. Do we _know_ he was brother of Fulk? If so, he would
be the second John in the family I have proposed, but given that he
outlived Fulk by 23 years, I wonder of they might instead have been
uncle and nephew.
Some additional Sandford documents from the database formerly known as
PROCAT:
E 101/232/22
24 Edward I.
Letter and memorandum as to the goods of J. de Sandford, archbishop of
Dublin, a crown debtor.
SC 8/66/3257
[c. 1318]
Petitioners: Roger [de Pembrok (Pembroke)], son of Roger de Pembrok
(Pembroke).
Addressees: King's council.
Places mentioned: County Tipperary, [Ireland]; Athlone, [County
Westmeath, Ireland]; Belaghnegarmyn (unidentified), County Tipperary,
[Ireland]; Scotland.
Other people mentioned: Roger de Pembrok (Pembroke), formerly Sheriff of
County Tipperary; [Edward I], King of England; John de Sandford,
Archbishop of Dublin & Justiciar of Ireland; Walter Lenfaunt, Keeper of
the castle of Athlone; [Richard de Burgh], Earl of Ulster.
Nature of request: Roger, son of Roger de Pembrok, formerly Sheriff of
County Tipperary, makes two requests:
1) He asks that the Justiciar and Treasurer of Ireland be ordered to
inquire into two payments, amounting to Ł40, made by his father at the
command of John de Sandford, Archbishop of Dublin and Justiciar of
Ireland, for which he never received an allowance, and that they might
be allowed to him.
2) He requests a writ to the Treasurer of Ireland to levy Ł30 owed by
various debtors in County Tipperary, for which he can show evidence, and
that he might be able to pay the rest of the Ł115 demanded of him in
terms of 6 marks annually, as the king's father granted to his father.
Endorsement: The Justiciar and Treasurer of Ireland are to be ordered
that, when they have examined all the rolls and memoranda of the said
Justiciar in the Exchequer, if they find that the Ł40 mentioned in the
petition were paid for the king's benefit, as is contained in the
petition, then they are to give him an allowance for them in the
Exchequer. And with regard to the payment in instalments of the
remainder of the debt, considering the estate of the person and the
service he has done to the king, they are to do what seems to them to be
done. The Treasurer is also to be written to, to have the Ł30 levied
from the various debtors whose names the same Roger will give him, in
exoneration of the same Roger.
E 40/3242
Morrow of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, A.D. 1223. (Hants)
Agreement between Theobald the abbot, and the convent of Tyron,'
(Andewell) and Alan Basset to settle their disputes. They release to
Alan all claim in Hoc (Hook) wood and give him land in the field 'del
su' of the chapel of Mapeldurewelle, retaining one third of the moor
called 'Estmore.' He restores them a way sufficient for a horse laden to
go along with his leader in the head of his tillage toward the water of
Mapeldurewelle to the house of Enedewelle. Present:- witnesses from
Bradenestoke and St. Fromund, Gilbert Basset, Roger de Dantesia, Alan
Bradenstoke and St. Fromund, Gilbert Basset, Roger de Dantesia, Alan de
Sanford, and others (named). Hants Morrow of the Nativity of St. John
the Baptist, A.D. 1223. (Hants)
Piece details: SC 13/H 8
1284x1294
John de Sanford, archbishop of Dublin: seal with counter seal. ORDER
THIS DOCUMENT AS SC 13/H 7
And with regard to the Sanford/Vere connection:
SC 8/51/2549
[1278-1281]
The Earl of Hereford and Earl of Oxford state that after the death of
Joan de Sanford, who held Lashbrook of the Earl of Oxford and Shelley of
the Earl of Hereford, they seized these tenements into their hands, but
because one John de Munteny claimed to be her heir and to hold of the
king in chief, an inquest was held in three counties. In Oxfordshire and
Essex it was found that she held nothing in chief, but the inquest in
Suffolk, held partly with the villeins of John's kinsman Robert de
Munteny, found that she did, so that the Earls were expelled from their
manors. The Earl of Oxford complained and a new inquest was ordered in
Suffolk, to be taken by Richard de Holebrok, but this was halted by a
writ acquired by John de Munteny to associate William de Burle. The
Earls dispute that Joan held any tenements in chief of the king in
Suffolk or elsewhere, and ask for justice to be done to them.
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for this post. This should allow for some substantial
changes to the widely received Basset (of Wycombe) pedigree, and also
add a bit of ancestry for the later de Vere Earls of Oxford (via
Sanford).
An item of confusion that needs clarification. The text of E
40/501 (A.D. 1213-1234) concerns a gift to the canons of Blakemore by
"the said Gilbert, with their said patron and lady Alice his wife "
which caused some confusion, for you wrote after that
' This appears to give Gilbert Basset an earlier wife, Alice,
prior to his marriage to Isabel de Ferrers. '
The language here is indeed confusing, but this is in error. Lady
Alice was the wife of 'their said patron', who is identified clearly in
the first portion of the text as "the late knt. their patron, Sir John
de Sanford". There evidently was no other wife of Gilbert Basset (as
far as we know at this point) than Isabel de Ferrers.
Another expansion will occur due to a previously unidentified
relationship via Sanford with the Lords Welle (or Welles). Sir Adam de
Periton (d. 1266), of Ellington, Northumberland, Faxton, Northants. and
Rampisham, Dorset was one of the witnesses in E 40/501. His parents
were Thomas de Periton (d. bef 29 Oct 1227) and his unnamed wife,
sister of Thomas de Sanford, hereditary forester of Braydon, co. Wilts.
[previously identified by Mardi Carter]. Whether as sibling or other
near relation of Sir John de Sanford (but unfortunately, not a son),
another kinship should be established as a result of these finds.
Cheers,
John
>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip of much useful matter <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
mj...@btinternet.com
Thanks for this detailed and useful post.
I haven't had the opportunity to look into much, but glanced at DNB
which is not so sure as EB1911 that John de Sandford was Fulk de
Sandford's brother. As you note, the 23 year death-date differential,
combined with the relative lack of overlap in their official lives
(Fulk appointed to the Dublin see, 1256 and died 1271; John appointed
to the deanery there only in 1275) is suggestive of a generational
difference as well.
I shall try to follow this up at the SoG when I am next there.
Michael
Todd A. Farmerie
> An item of confusion that needs clarification. The text of E
> 40/501 (A.D. 1213-1234) concerns a gift to the canons of Blakemore by
> "the said Gilbert, with their said patron and lady Alice his wife "
> which caused some confusion, for you wrote after that
>
> ' This appears to give Gilbert Basset an earlier wife, Alice,
> prior to his marriage to Isabel de Ferrers. '
>
> The language here is indeed confusing, but this is in error. Lady
> Alice was the wife of 'their said patron', who is identified clearly in
> the first portion of the text as "the late knt. their patron, Sir John
> de Sanford". There evidently was no other wife of Gilbert Basset (as
> far as we know at this point) than Isabel de Ferrers.
Ah, yes, of course. Thanks for that. Any clue on "for the 'remedium'
of his said deceased grandson and knt"? As I read it, "his" is relative
to Gilbert, but who is the "said deceased grandson"? Would he have had
a grandson old enough to be a knt this early?
- Oh, wait, I just tripped to it. This is a mistranslation in the
summary. In the original Latin, this would have been "nepos" - in this
case nephew, not grandson, and refers to the deceased nephew Alan de
Sandford. It's all starting to come together.
I never did give a summary, but it looks to me like Sir John de Sandford
and Alice Basset had (not necessarily in order, and presumably with at
least a daughter or two):
a. Sir Alan
b. Sir John
c. Sir Gilbert (apparently father in law to the Earl of Oxford)
d. Sir Nicolas
e. Lawrence m. Hawyse Basset
f. Archbishop Fulk
Note that Gilbert and Fulk are not explicitly linked, but given that
their names are those of two siblings of Alice (as Alan is named for her
father), the placement seems likely. (And I can't think how the Earls
of Oxford would connect if not through Gilbert.) Further, it may not be
coincidence that the one destined for the church was named for her
brother, the future Bishop. As to Sir John, he appears to be acting as
heir to the patronage, apparently the oldest (surviving) son. Nicolas
and Lawrence are explicitly given as children of John, deceased. They
need not be children by Alice, but I see no grounds for suggesting a
previous wife at this point, nor would one expect the interest shown
in/by Philip Basset were it not a blood connection.
I really think Archbishop John was too young, and is probably a nephew
of Archbishop Fulk, son of one of the above a.-e.
>>E 40/501
>>
>>A. D. 1213-1234
I think it has to be somewhat late in this run for Alice and John to
have two sons old enough to be knoghted, and two old enough to witness,
but if _Basset Charters_ is accurate in placing the death of Thomas
Basset in 1230, that is the limit. I wonder, given the witness order
and roles of Gilbert, Fulk and Thomas Basset, if the last might not have
been younger than Gilbert and Fulk, not older. I don't have ready
access to the _Basset Charters_ to check its basis for making him oldest.
>>Grant by William, the prior, and the canons of Blakemore. THe late Alan
>>de Sanford, son of the late knt. their patron, Sir John de Sanford, had
>>elected to be buried in their church near his forefathers, and SIr
>>Gilbert Basset, uncle (advunculus) of the same Alan, had converted to
>>their use 30 acres which lady Alice de Snford held of them in
>>Alfladewike, for the "remedium" of his said deceased grandson and knt;.
>>and by this and other largesses the said Gilbert, with their said patron
>>and lady Alice his wife, have cuased their church to have perpetual
>>memory of the deceased. Wherefore they grant to Gilbert and his heirs
>>the right of presenting one canon, whom they shall be bound to admit;
>>such canon to be called the 'Basset' canon. Witnesses:- Sir Fulk Basset,
>>provost of Beverley, Sir John de Sanford, Sir Thomas Basset, and Sir
>>Warin, brothers, Sir Adam de Periton, Sir Robert de Wattevile, Sir
>>Thomas de Gulafre, Sir Geoffrey de Bidefor, Gilbert de Sanford.
taf
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
(snipped)
> From a chart, p. xxxix in _Basset Charters, c. 1120 to 1250_, William
> T. Reedy ed., Publications of the Pipe Roll Society, n.s. vol. 50,
> London 1995
>
> Alan Basset of Wycombe had:
> 1. Thomas, d. 1230
> 2. Gilbert, d. 1241, m. Isabel de Ferrers and had:
> a. Gilbert, d. 1241.
> 3. Alice, m. John de Sandford
> 4. Fulk, Bishop of London, d. 1259
> 5. David
> 6. Warin, d. 1233
> 7. Philip, d 1271, m. H. de Gray, m.2 Ela, Countess of Warwick
> a. Aline, m. Hugh Despenser, m.2 Roger Bigod
(large snip of primary evidences)
> Based on this, I would tentatively add Nicolas and Laurence to the list
> of children of Alice Basset and John de Sandford. The only problem here
> is the marriage of Laurence to a Hawise, who, apparently a widow in 1297
> fits more comfortably in the generation after Philip and Alice Basset,
> is herself called daughter of Lord Basset. She would appear to derive
> from a more distant branch of that family. (I don't have handy access to
> the appropriate volume of CP - How many Lord Bassets were there at the
> time?)
This came up a couple of months ago, but working backwards. Laurence
Sandford's daughter Ada (1270-1331) married Sir Walter Foliot, and I
was wondering idly how their daughter Joan Foliot came to be the
heiress of 1/6th part of the manor of Wich Malbank (Nantwich). Paul
kindly supplied some relevant references, including, from Ormerod: "The
second subdivision of this share [barony of Wich Malbanc] fell to
Johanna (Basset)... her estate passed to the Sanfords."
I haven't had a chance to see the context of this yet, but it's a
puzzle at the moment- a Malbank heiress did marry a Basset (Thomas,
d.1220), but her name was Philippa, not Johanna. The only available
line of descent from this mariage seems to be through the three
daughters of their daughter Alice Basset and her second husband John
Biset (d.1241), as all other lines apparently terminate sp. One of
these Biset daughters, Isabel, married Sir Hugh de Plessis (d.1292)
[whose mother was a Sanford, but maybe a different family], but I don't
know about the others (Margaret and Ela)- maybe a share went to the
Sandfords through one of them?
The problem is that if Laurence's mother was (as is indeed given) Alice
Basset of Wycombe, I understood her father Alan to be a brother of the
Thomas who married Philippa Malbank; so the consanguinuity looks
prohibitive. (It could be that the share did not come by descent, but
by grant.) A look in the archives threw up Hawise, the wife of
Laurence, as being called the daughter of William Corbet, which doesn't
tie in at all with her being a Basset. Does anybody know whether her MI
is still extant?
Todd A. Farmerie
> The problem is that if Laurence's mother was (as is indeed given) Alice
> Basset of Wycombe, I understood her father Alan to be a brother of the
> Thomas who married Philippa Malbank; so the consanguinuity looks
> prohibitive. (It could be that the share did not come by descent, but
> by grant.) A look in the archives threw up Hawise, the wife of
> Laurence, as being called the daughter of William Corbet, which doesn't
> tie in at all with her being a Basset. Does anybody know whether her MI
> is still extant?
>
Just as an aside, I note a web page that says Sir Henry de Bathe married
Aliva/Aline de Sandford/Basset, who died 1273, citing, among others,
DNB, p. 1322. With the Basset name of Aline and the Sandford surname
(apparently) she would be a candidate daughter for Sir John de Sandford
and Alice Basset - if it is solid information.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bathonia/MedievalConnections.htm
On a separate page, the author 'confirms' this:
"Henry’s wife, Aline (Aliva, Alice) Sandford/Bassett, might have been a
product of the marriage between John Sandford and Alice Bassett in about
1210. Unfortunately, this information comes without a source. Phillip
Basset, justiciar and baron of Henry III's, and brother of Fulk Basset,
bishop of London is given as her uncle. Dr. David Crook confirms these
relationships."
and
From the Victoria County History of Middlesex : "In the mid 13th
century Fulk Basset, bishop of London, had land and rents in Stepney in
his own right, possibly part of the Basset estates which he inherited in
1241. Part of the Stepney land was held by the Cole family (q.v.), and
in 1250 a grant of land and rent was made to Fulk by Asketin Cole. At
about the same time Fulk received lands and tenements in Stepney from
Adrian Eswy (or Aswy), confirmed to Fulk and his heirs by Adrian's
brother Thomas. (Footnote 73) Fulk died in 1259 and the Basset estates
passed to Sir Philip Basset, justiciar, and on his death in 1271 to his
daughter Aline and her second husband Roger Bigod, earl of Norfolk.
(Footnote 74) Part of the Stepney land was held by Philip's niece Aline,
wife of Henry de Ba or BATHONIA, judge of the Common Pleas, and in 1259
her son John de Bathonia conveyed 3 messuages, 62 a., 16s. 4d. rent and
appurtenances in Finsbury and Stepney, with the manor of Uplambourn
(Berks.), all part of Aline's estate, to Nicholas of Yattendon and his
wife Alice for their lives, with remainder to John and his heirs.
(Footnote 75) Nicholas married Aline de Bathonia as her second husband,
(Footnote 76) and although Henry de Bathonia is said not to have died
until 1260, (Footnote 77) it seems likely that the grant was connected
with this marriage. Aline died c. 1274 seized of a messuage and 27 a. in
Stepney held of the bishop of London for 42d. p.a., a messuage and 2 a.
land held of the heirs of her uncle Sir Philip Basset for 12d. p.a., 3
a. held of Ralph Huscarl for 6s. p.a., and rents of assize in Stepney,
which passed to her heir Sir John de Bathonia. (Footnote 78)"
taf
Ginny Wagner
information and thought in unraveling this mystery.
< I never did give a summary, but it looks to me like Sir
John de Sandford
and Alice Basset had (not necessarily in order, and
presumably with at
least a daughter or two):
a. Sir Alan
b. Sir John
c. Sir Gilbert (apparently father in law to the Earl of
Oxford)
d. Sir Nicolas d. 23 Jan, 1252
e. Lawrence m. Hawyse Basset
f. Archbishop Fulk
>
To which I'll add one of the daughters:
g. Cecilia de Sanford d. 23 July 1251, Universally Regretted
P. 192 of Vol V of CTG:
"6. Sir William de Gorham, knight, was the next possessor of
this manor; he died about 1230. He married Cecilia de
Sanford,[g] a lady whose beauty and virtues are spoken of in
the highest terms[h] by the historian, and her contemporary,
Matthew Paris. Her "learning, wit, and eloquence," gained
her an appointment (about 1232) as governess to Eleanor,[i]
sister of King Henry III., relict of William Marshal, Earl
of Pembroke. When she had been some years a widow, she made
a vow of perpetual celibacy, in which she was joined by her
royal pupil, in the presence of Edmund Archbishop of
Canterbury, about 1235. The Countess repented of her
rashness, and, being absolved from her vow by the Pope,
married Simon Earl of Leicester in 1238; but Cecilia de
Gorham maintained her purpose to the end of her life. When
she was dying, her confessor directed her female attendant
to remove from her finger her wedding ring, as a remnant of
worldly vanity; but Cecilia resisted the attempt, observing
that she had betrothed herself to God, in whose presence she
was resolved to appear with this token of her espousals.
She died 23rd July 1251, universally regretted, and was
buried with much honour at St. Alban's in front of the altar
of St. Andrew. Her brother Nicholas de Sanford, a young man
of great military promise, was so afflicted at her loss,
that he died of a broken heart, a few months afterwards, on
the 23rd of January 1252."
From footnotes re the Sandfords in CTG:
"[fn g] Little seems to be known of the extinct family of
_Sanford_. Some links in the pedigree are supplied by the
incident mentioned in the text, by the Herts. and Bucks.
fines and by the Pipe Roll 33 Hen. III. These will be
annexed to the pedigree [No. 11] of _De Gorham of Westwick_,
the families having been connected by marriage, and the
manor of Westwick having passed from the De Gorhams to the
De Veers through a female branch of the Sanfords. The arms
of _Sanford_, as found by Sir Richard St. George on a seal
of this family, were: Barry wavy of six Argent and Azure.
See MSS. Lansd. 863, f. 39.
"[fn h] Matt. Paris, Hist. Angl. p. 818 edit. Watts 1640.
"[fn i] Matthew Paris, says "Joanna;" there is not only a
mistake in the name, but in his statement that she married
"_Willelmo de Valentia Joanne,_" [so in the MSS., but qu.
"_juniori?] after the death of her first husband William
Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (1231), and before her alliance
with Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester(1238)."
I'm very grateful for your help; not only with the specifics
of this particular matter, but also for illustrating
collegiality and showing how knotty problems can be
unravelled as great minds work together. This is what I
always imagined the real promise of the internet to be.
Best, Ginny Wagner
Todd A. Farmerie
> From footnotes re the Sandfords in CTG:
>
> "[fn g] Little seems to be known of the extinct family of
> _Sanford_. Some links in the pedigree are supplied by the
> incident mentioned in the text, by the Herts. and Bucks.
> fines and by the Pipe Roll 33 Hen. III. These will be
> annexed to the pedigree [No. 11] of _De Gorham of Westwick_,
Do you have access to this pedigree no. 11 (I assume this would have
been within or at the end of the same article)? Does it mention
anything we haven't hit on yet?
taf
Ginny Wagner
would have
been within or at the end of the same article)? >
You assume correctly. ;-)
From an earlier post, 7 Sep, 7:02AM:
From CTG, Vol V, p. 199 with "..." indicating unsure direct
lineage:
[No. II. Pedigree of de Gorham of Westwick (Gorhambury), and
of Sanford of Great Hormede, Herts.
1. William de Gorham of Maine,
2. Geoffrey de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans (1119-1146)
3. *[Olivia] de Gorham
m. Hugh, son of Humbald
4. Henry de Gorham
... 1.1 Ive de Gorham held Westwick ca. 1145
1.2 Robert de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans 1151-1166
1.3 Ralph de Gorham oc. ca. 1140, Lord of Sarret 1160
1.1.1. Geoffrey de Gorham held Westwick in 1166
1.3.1. Robert de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161
1.3.2. Geoffrey de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161
... 1.1.1.1. Sir Henry de Gorham oc. 1199 and ca. 1220
... 1.1.1.1.1. Sir William de Gorham
(the same mentioned as steward to Fulk?)
m. Cecilia de Sanford, Governess of Elenor,
sister of Henry III, died 23 July, 1251
buried at St. Albans
Sister to
Nicholas de Sanford, held Aston
Sanford 1234, d. 23 Jan. 1252 and ....
Gilbert de Sanford Lord of Great
Hormede,Chamberlain to Queen Elenor,
m. to Lora, d. 1250 who was father
to:
Alicia de Sanford, who bought the
reversion of Westwick 1307, died 1312
and was married to Robert de Veer,
5th Earl of Oxford,
Lord of Gt. Hormede, d. 1296
and she was mother to:
Alphonsus de Veer, Lord of
Great Hormede 1297, of Aston
Sanford 1316, and of
Westwick-Gorham ca. 1320.
*GCG indicated an unknown female Gorham married Hugh but
_Some Descendants of Captain John Gorham of Plymouth Colony
in New York State and the Western Reserve_ Compiled by Helen
Hester King, B.S. and Linetta Ainsworth Daniels states
Geoffrey's sister, Olivia, came from Brittany to receive his
patronage. The next sentences are "The Manor [Westwick] was
willed to his sister, whose husband took the name, de
Gorham. She died without issue and the Manor and other
holdings eventually passed to the abbot's three nephews,
Ive, Robert, and Ralph, sons of his brother, William."
The dotted lines indicate an unsure sibling relationship
between Nicholas/Cecilia de Sandford and Gilbert de Sanford
who has a definite line to John de Sanford as well as Alicia
de Sanford = Robert de Veer who are straight-lined to
Alphonsus de Veer.
Respectfully, Ginny Wagner
John P. Ravilious
Dear Todd (and Ginny, John, Michael et al.),
The following extracts from the Victoria County History for Essex
further solidify the connection of Sir Gilbert de Sanford as set forth
in prior posts:
I. 'Houses of Austin canons: Priory of Blackmore', A History of the
County of Essex: Volume 2 (1907), pp. 146-48.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=39843
17. THE PRIORY (Footnote 1) OF BLACKMORE
This priory, which was dedicated to St. Laurence, appears to have been
founded by some of the Sanford family, probably towards the end of the
twelfth century. In an undated deed, (Footnote 2) early in the reign of
Henry III, the canons recite that the late Alan de Sanford, son of
their patron, Sir John de Sanford, had elected to be buried in their
church near his forefathers, and his uncle, Sir Gilbert Basset, had
made grants to them in memory of him, in return for which they grant to
Gilbert and his heirs the right of presenting one canon to the house,
to be called the Basset canon. The advowson of the priory afterwards
passed by the marriage of Alice de Sanford, granddaughter of Sir John,
to the De Veres, earls of Oxford.
The churches of Tyburn in Middlesex, Great Hormead in Hertfordshire,
Blackmore and Margaretting were appropriated (Footnote 3) to the
priory, and vicarages ordained by William de Sancta Maria, bishop of
London (1199-1221). The church of Willingale Spain was similarly
appropriated (Footnote 4) in the time of Fulk Basset, bishop (1242-59);
but in 1398 the rectory was restored, a pension of 40s. being reserved
to the priory. In 1248 they were also in possession of the chapel of
Copford; of which the history is that Alfred Gernon formerly gave 15
acres of land to a chaplain to celebrate divine service daily in the
chapel, but as the chaplain found the endowment insufficient he gave up
the land and went away, and Alfred then made an agreement with the
prior of Blackmore, the latter providing a chaplain and Alfred granting
24 acres of land for his support. (Footnote 5)
In the Taxation of 1291 the temporalities of the priory were valued at
£21 17s. 7½d. yearly. This included £5 11s. 7d. in Blackmore, £3
1s. 8d. in Willingale Doe, £2 17s. in Broomfield, £2 6s. 6d. in
Little Laver, £2 5s. 0½d. in Margaretting, £1 5s. in Great Hormead,
£1 1s. 4d. in Shellow and £1 in Layston in Hertfordshire. The
remainder of the possessions lay in Shenfield, Willingale Andrew,
Bobbingworth, Norton, Roxwell, High Laver, Ingatestone, Standon and
Ongar, and Brent Pelham in Hertfordshire. A few licences to acquire
property in mortmain are recorded on the Patent Rolls.
Henry III on 23 September, 1232, granted (Footnote 6) to the canons a
fair at their house on the vigil, the day and the morrow of St.
Laurence (10 August). A dispute appears to have arisen between the
prior and Gilbert de Sanford about the site; and an agreement was come
to at Easter, 1234, by which, in return for other grants, the prior
granted to Gilbert a moiety of all benefits arising from the fair, and
also that the fair should be kept every year by their common bailiffs
in the accustomed place, and if that should be insufficient, then when
the fair increased the residue of the fair should be on the land of
Gilbert in the nearest and most suitable place. At Midsummer, 1240, a
further agreement was made, as the prior complained that Gilbert had
not observed the fine. (Footnote 7)
Footnotes to the above:
1 Dugdale, Mon. vi, 552.
2 Anct. D. A 501. It is witnessed by Fulk Basset, provost of Beverley,
who became bishop of London in 1242.
3 Newcourt, Repertorium, i, 695, 834; ii, 63, 405.
4 Newcourt, Repertorium, ii, 669.
5 Assize R. 231, m. 5.
6 Chart. 16 Hen. III, m. 2.
7 Cal. Feet of F. (Essex Arch. Soc.), 95, 128.
_________________________________________
II. 'Chigwell: Manors', A History of the County of Essex: Volume 4:
Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 24-32.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15539
In 1066 the manor of WOOLSTON was held by Earl Harold. It was then
taken by King William and in 1086 was held by him in demesne. (Footnote
87) During the 12th century the manor was granted to the Sanford family
to hold in serjeanty by virtue of the office of chamberlain to the
queen. (Footnote 88) A John de Sanford held the manor in 1210-12
(Footnote 89) and Cecily de Sanford in 1219. (Footnote 90) Gilbert de
Sanford held Woolston in 1236, in which year he officiated at the
coronation of Eleanor of Provence. (Footnote 91) He was still living in
1248, (Footnote 92) but was dead by April 1249 when the wardship of his
daughter and heir Alice de Sanford was bought by Fulk Basset, Bishop of
London. (Footnote 93) In June 1249 the bishop sold the wardship to Hugh
de Vere, Earl of Oxford, who married Alice to his son and heir Robert.
(Footnote 94) In 1259 John de Rivers, lord of Ongar hundred, granted to
Robert de Vere and Alice his wife a release of 4d. rent at their view
of frankpledge at Woolston. (Footnote 95) In 1265 Robert's estates were
forfeited for his part in the Barons' War; the township of Woolston was
then said to be worth £6 6s. 8d. a year. (Footnote 96) Robert
recovered his estates under the Dictum of Kenilworth, but before this,
in October 1265, all Alice's hereditary lands had been restored to her.
(Footnote 97)
In 1284 Robert and Alice granted the reversion of Woolston after their
deaths to their daughter Joan and her husband William de Warenne, son
and heir of John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey (d. 1304). (Footnote 98)
Robert died in 1296; Woolston was then being held of him and Alice by
William le Plomer. (Footnote 99) Alice died in 1312. She had outlived
both her daughter Joan and William de Warenne and Woolston passed to
John, Earl of Surrey, son of Joan and William. (Footnote 1) Before 1321
John conveyed the manor to his sister Alice and her husband Edmund Fitz
Alan Earl of Arundel. (Footnote 2) Woolston did not escheat after the
execution of Arundel in 1326 because it was his wife's inheritance.
(Footnote 3) Alice died between 1330 and 1338, and the manor passed to
her son Richard Fitz Alan, who had been restored to the earldom of
Arundel in 1330. (Footnote 4) In 1345 Woolston was being held for life
by Isabel Dispenser, the divorced wife of Richard. (Footnote 5) Richard
died in 1376. (Footnote 6) The manor passed to his son Richard, Earl of
Arundel, who was executed in 1397. (Footnote 7) The attainder of this
earl was reversed in 1400 and his titles and estates were restored to
his son Thomas, who in 1405 granted Woolston for life to his servant
John Wele. (Footnote 8) Thomas died in 1415 and John Wele in 1420.
(Footnote 9) Shortly before he died Wele was involved in a Chancery
action against the king in respect of Woolston. (Footnote 10) In 1421
the manor was divided between Thomas's three daughters, Elizabeth,
Duchess of Norfolk, Joan, Lady Bergavenny, and Margaret, wife of
Rowland Lenthal. (Footnote 11)
Footnotes to the above:
87V.C.H. Essex, i, 432b.
88J. H. Round, Kings Sergeants and Officers of State, 132 f. Woolston
was one of five manors appurtenant to this serjeanty, the others being
Margaretting and Fingrith (in Blackmore) in Essex, and Great Hormead
and Nuthampstead (in Barkway) in Herts.
89Red Bk. of Exch. 507; Bk. of Fees, 121.
90Bk. of Fees, 275.
91Ibid. 589; J. H. Round, op. cit. 133.
92Bk. of Fees, 1361, 1412.
93Complete Peerage, x, 214.
94Ibid.
95Harl. Chart. 55 D. 24.
96Cal. Chart. R. ii, 57; Cal. Inq. Misc. i, p. 200.
97Complete Peerage, x, 216.
98Cal. Pat. 1281-92, 173.
99Cal. Inq. p.m. iii, p. 230; Cal. Fine R. 1272-1307, 378.
1Cal. Inq. p.m. v, p. 216.
2Feet of F. Essex, ii, 204.
3Complete Peerage, i, 242.
4Ibid. 243.
5Cal. Pat. 1343-5,488.
6Complete Peerage, i, 244.
7C136/101.
8C138/45.
9Ibid.; Complete Peerage, i, 246.
10Cal. Close, 1419-22, 116.
11Cal. Fine R. 1413-22, 389-90. Elizabeth was widow of Thomas de
Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk (d. 1399). Joan was widow of William
Beauchamp, 1st Lord Bergavenny.
Unfortunately, the account in Monasticon Anglicanum (VI(1):552) is
rather abbreviated, including no charter texts. Little more is said
than that according to Morant (Hist. of Essex), the priory was founded
by "Sir John de Saundfort, who, by his wife Alice Basset, left two
sons, Alan and Nicholas: the eldest whereof desired to be buried in
this Priory Church by his ancestors. Morant says, John de Sandford had
also, about the year, 1165, the manors of Fingreth in this parish, of
Ginge-margaret, and Wolveston-hall in Chigwell in this county; and
Great Hormead, and Nuthamstede in Hertfordshire."
The 1165 date does not match well with the husband of Alice
Basset, but otherwise is worth investigating.
Cheers,
John
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> John P. Ravilious wrote:
>
> > An item of confusion that needs clarification. The text of E
> > 40/501 (A.D. 1213-1234) concerns a gift to the canons of Blakemore by
> > "the said Gilbert, with their said patron and lady Alice his wife "
> > which caused some confusion, for you wrote after that
> >
> > ' This appears to give Gilbert Basset an earlier wife, Alice,
> > prior to his marriage to Isabel de Ferrers. '
> >
> > The language here is indeed confusing, but this is in error. Lady
> > Alice was the wife of 'their said patron', who is identified clearly in
> > the first portion of the text as "the late knt. their patron, Sir John
> > de Sanford". There evidently was no other wife of Gilbert Basset (as
> > far as we know at this point) than Isabel de Ferrers.
>
>
> Ah, yes, of course. Thanks for that. Any clue on "for the 'remedium'
> of his said deceased grandson and knt"? As I read it, "his" is relative
> to Gilbert, but who is the "said deceased grandson"? Would he have had
> a grandson old enough to be a knt this early?
>
> - Oh, wait, I just tripped to it. This is a mistranslation in the
> summary. In the original Latin, this would have been "nepos" - in this
> case nephew, not grandson, and refers to the deceased nephew Alan de
> Sandford. It's all starting to come together.
>
<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ginny Wagner
time to get my head around the import of what is here, both
due to my inexperience with all this and the large amount of
information you have so generously chosen to share.
I do recognize that this is pertinent information and will
do my best to properly digest it. Am most grateful for all
the contributions toward understanding what happened to
these families.
Gratefully,
Ginny Wagner
Todd A. Farmerie
> II. 'Chigwell: Manors', A History of the County of Essex: Volume 4:
> Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 24-32.
> URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15539
>
> In 1066 the manor of WOOLSTON was held by Earl Harold. It was then
> taken by King William and in 1086 was held by him in demesne. (Footnote
> 87) During the 12th century the manor was granted to the Sanford family
> to hold in serjeanty by virtue of the office of chamberlain to the
> queen. (Footnote 88) A John de Sanford held the manor in 1210-12
> (Footnote 89) and Cecily de Sanford in 1219. (Footnote 90)
Any idea who Cecily might be? (perhaps widow of Sir John, the first
witness of the Basset/Sandford document of the other day, and probable
eldest surviving son of Sir John and Alice)
taf
Rosie Bevan
Cecily, the wife of John de Sanford senior, was the daughter of Adam de
Sewardstone. In 1223 she was called to answer accusations of waste in
Essex which she held of the inheritance of John de Sanford (the
younger). She married Matthew Maunsell after her husband John's
death.[Bracton's Note Book, no.1617].
In 1240 Gilbert de Sanford, son of John junior, unsuccessfully claimed
the vill of Sewardstone which had been given by Henry II to Waltham
abbey around 1178 as part of its refoundation dower. Gilbert said that
it rightly belonged to his grandmother Cecilia who was then under age
and a royal ward and heir to her father Adam. In 1278 Gilbert's
daughter and heir, Alice, then countess of Oxford again tried to
establish a claim to Sewardstone, but was unsuccesful.[Rosalind
Ransford, The Early Charters of Waltham Abbey, 1062-1230 (Boydell,
1989) nos. 26, 287]
This would give us
John de Sanford=Cecily de Sewardstone
|
John de Sanford=Alice Basset
|
Gilbert de Sanford=Loretta la Zouche
|
Alice de Sanford=Robert de Vere
The name Sanford is evidently derived from Stamford Hill.
Cheers
Rosie
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for that - with your contribution of that find, at
least identifying Cecilia will not be shaking our confidence daily.
Following is a short AT for Sir Gilbert de Sanford, as I now have
amended it. Should anyone have any comment or note any error or
omission, please advise.
1 Sir Gilbert de Sanford.
died bef Apr 1249.
of Great Hormead, co. Herts and Woolston, Essex
'Gilbert de Sanford', witness (together with father Sir John and
others) to a grant by William the prior and the canons of Blackmore re:
the church of Blackmore, Essex, dated ca. 1213-1234
Queen's Chamberlain at coronation of Queen Eleanor, 1236
'Sir Gilbert de Sandford', witness to grant by Hubert de Burgh (Earl of
Kent) to Philip Basset of his messuage of Biestun, dated A.D. 1227-1243
[E 40/2595]
'Sir Gilbert de Sanford', witness together with his brother Master Fulk
and others to grant by William . . . to Sir Philip Basset, dated
1245-1259 [E 40/844 ]
held manor of Hormead and Nuthampstead, co. Herts. and Woolverston in
Chigwell, co. Essex 1248 'in grand serjeanty'
held Tidworth, co. Wilts in free marriage (CP XII:932, sub _Zouche_)
Gilbert married Lora la Zouche.
cf. VCH 2:146, Essex, cites Cal. Feet of Fines (Essex Arch. Soc.), 95,
128.
2 Sir John de Sanford.
knt., of Great Hormead, co. Herts and Woolston, Essex
'John de Sanford', held the manor of Woolston, Essex in 1210-12 [VCH
4:24, Essex cites Red Book of the Exchequer, 507; Bk. of Fees, 121]
'Sir John de Sanford', patron of the canons of Blakemore, identified in
a grant dated ca. 1213-1234
Sir John married Alice Basset.
3 Alice Basset.
'lady Alice de Sanford', identified in a grant dated ca. 1213-1234
4 John de Sanford.
John married Cecilia de Sewardstone.
5 Cecilia de Sewardstone.
6 Alan Basset. Alan died in 1231.
of Wycombe, co. Bucks.
'Occurs in the Carta of Gilbert de Bolebec in 1166 holding land in
Wicumbe.
Alan Basset and Amicia his wife confirmed to Pipewell the grant of Hugh
de Senliz in the fee of Foxton at Braybrook (BL Add. 37023, fol. 16v).'
[DD 164]
supporter of King John, named as such in Magna Carta
acquired the manor of Winterburne from his cousin Walter de
Dunstanville, as witnessed by Geoffrey FitzPiers, Earl of Essex, and
William Marshal [Dugdale, Baronage, p. 591]
had a grant for a market (mercatum) from King Henry III to be held at
his manor of Wootton Basset, 16 Jan 1219
made gift in alms of land in Littlecott 'at the instance of Aline de
Gay his wife', 1229 or later [Adrian Channing, 21 June 1999]
cf. CP IX:76-77, sub _Montagu
Alan married Aline de Gai.
7 Aline de Gai.
coheiress of her father
her inheritance or maritagium included Wootton, co. Wilts. (renamed
Wootton Basset)
' 383 (2735R). Aline and Cecily de Gay. Resealing of confirmation
(Vezelay, 3rd July 1190) of agreement in Henry II's court concerning
division of inheritance from their father, Philip de Gay. Cecily is
to have all the land in Norbroch' [Northbrook], and quit claims the
rest to Aline; if either dies without legitimate issue, the other
party shall inherit.
Huius autem innovationis teste sunt Hii, Baldwin, Count of
Aumale,
William Marshal, William Fitz Ralph seneschal of Normany, Warin Fitz
Gerald, Saher de Quincy. Dat' per manum E. Elien' Episcopi
Cancellarii nostri. Roche d'Orival 22nd August 1198. Seal on cords.
London, PRO, E42/314 [Reference: J.C. Holt and Richard Mortimer,
Acta of Henry II and Richard I, published as List and Index Soc.,
Special Series, vol. 21, pg. 204] '
elsewhere called Amicia (DD 164) - possible 2nd wife?
10 Adam de Sewardstone.
12 Thomas Basset. Thomas died aft 1185.
of Whitford, Devon
had wardship of his grandson Robert de Grelley at the 1185 return
(Farrer, HKF II:251)
identified as 'of Headington, co. Oxon.' elsewhere, in error
(Headington conferred
on son Thomas, 1203 -cf. Sanders, p. 51),
Thomas married Alice de Dunstanville.
13 Alice de Dunstanville. Alice died aft 1185.
had the manors of Colyton, co. Devon and Shalford, co. Surrey as part
of her maritagium (possibly direct grants to Thomas Basset)
[deduced from information provided by Ivor West and the Gazetteer
record]
14 Philip de Gai. Philip died bef 3 Jul 1190.
of Wootton, co. Wilts.
Philip married Cecily.
15 Cecily.
"Sedzilia q' fu[it] vxor Philipp de Gay in donocoe d[omi]ni Rex Wotton
[terra sua] ...." [D. Richardson, cites Three Rolls of the King's Court
in the Reign of King Richard
the First A.D. 1194-1195, published as Publications of the Pipe Roll
Soc., vol. 14 (1891), pg. 89 ]
called Sedzilia in some sources
24 Gilbert Basset. Gilbert died aft 1153.
Gilbert married Edith d'Oilly.
25 Edith d'Oilly.
heiress of Hooknorton, co. Oxon (or had a moiety of same as her
maritagium)
* deduced by future holding by descendants.
26 Alan de Dunstanville. Alan died bef 1157.
of Nyetimber, Sussex and Colyton, co. Devon, and Idsall (Shifnal), co.
Salop
held 8 knights' fees of the Honour of Arundel
made gift of land in Nyetimber, Sussex, of the Honour of Arundel, to
Lewes Priory during the reign of Stephen, 'as the gift of his father
and mother' - confirmed by Walter de Dunstanville
made grants to Wombridge Priory of land in Leies (later, Prior's Lee),
a manor of the barony of Idsall, co. Salop, before 1156
'was granted Heytesbury and Colyton by Henry II (Pipe Rolls,
1159-1166)' : Ivor West; but see notes re: his brother Robert, as to
Heytesbury
28 Stephen de Gai.
Stephen married Aline Pipard (her 2nd husband).
29 Aline Pipard.
heiress of Wootton, co. Wilts
*see D. Richardson: ref. statement in Pipe Rolls that John le Marischal
'owed money for having the lands and heir of Walter Pipard'
married 1stly John le Marshal (divorced, possibly ca. 1140)
(his first wife),
2ndly Stephen de Gai
Cheers,
John
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> > John P. Ravilious wrote:
> >
> > > II. 'Chigwell: Manors', A History of the County of Essex: Volume 4:
> > > Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 24-32.
> > > URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15539
> > >
> > > In 1066 the manor of WOOLSTON was held by Earl Harold. It was then
> > > taken by King William and in 1086 was held by him in demesne. (Footnote
> > > 87) During the 12th century the manor was granted to the Sanford family
> > > to hold in serjeanty by virtue of the office of chamberlain to the
> > > queen. (Footnote 88) A John de Sanford held the manor in 1210-12
> > > (Footnote 89) and Cecily de Sanford in 1219. (Footnote 90)
> >
> > Any idea who Cecily might be? (perhaps widow of Sir John, the first
> > witness of the Basset/Sandford document of the other day, and probable
> > eldest surviving son of Sir John and Alice)
> >
> > taf
>
>
> Cecily, the wife of John de Sanford senior, was the daughter of Adam de
> Sewardstone. In 1223 she was called to answer accusations of waste in
> Essex which she held of the inheritance of John de Sanford (the
> younger). She married Matthew Maunsell after her husband John's
> death.[Bracton's Note Book, no.1617].
>>>>>>>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:33
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Trusted Sources
>
>
> Ginny Wagner wrote:
<SNIP>
> > (1.or 2.)2. John de Sandford/Basset (d. 1294)
> > Archbishop of Dublin
> >
> >
> > (1.or2.)2.1. Nicolas de Sandford
> > (1.or2.)2.2. Sir Laurance de Sandford
> > m. Hawise de Samford (liv 1297)
<SNIP>
> I would suggest:
>
> 1. Gilbert Basset
> 2. Fulk Basset (not de Sandford, Lord Basset of WycombeBishop
> of London
> 3. Philip Basset
> 4. Hawise Basset married Laurence de Sandford, son of John
> and brother
> of Nicolas
<SNIP >
Is this Sir Laurance de Sandford, the same that is said in the Cheshire Visitation of 1580
to have held with Adam de Mustell 3 "feoda de Baronia Wici Malbani", 37 Henry III, which I
believe would be 1252 to 1253? If so this visitation indicates only one daughter Joan de
Sandford, Wife of 1. Sr. John Maltravers and Sr. Alexander de Venables. No wife is given
for Sir Laurence de Sandford. I know that the visitations maybe suspect but just thought
I would bring this up.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Jwc...@aol.com
I seem to
recall a thread concerning Loretta / Lora (la Zouche) Sandford which showed that
Lora`s marriage portion didn`t descend to Alice (de Sandford) de Vere, Countess
of Oxford but instead was returned to the Zouche family. Unfortunately I
can`t think of the URL title and can`t locate it in the archive. Maybe I`m just
crazy.
Sincerely,
Dixmont, Maine USA
Ginny Wagner
2004 and I believe you'll find the thread you are thinking
of. ;-) Ginny
Paul Mackenzie
Hi All:
My computer keeps crashing, so I can only get to the gen-med
occassionly. I hope to back on stream soon.
I have not studied this thread in detail and will when I can get some
time. However some relevant references which I have collected over time
are outlined below.
My conclusions from these references were that Hawise the daughter of
Fulk Basset, Bishop of London, married Laurence Samford, brother of
Nicholas, son of John. This seems contrary to one view that she was the
daughter of William Corbet. I also concluded that Thomas was related to
Laurence.
undated
Charter of feoffment, whereby Nicholas de Sanford grants, &c. to Sir
Laurence de Sanford his brother, and his heirs, for his homage and
service, all his manor of Estune in the county of Buckingham, which he
held of the gift of John de Sanford formerly his father, reserving a
yearly rent of 4d. Witn. Sir Philip Basset, Master Thomas Cumyn, Sir
William Dyre, Sir Oliver de Ingham, Sir Roger de Sanford, Sir Adam de
Dutton, Sir William Eyvile(?). Sir Ranulph de Mundeville, Thomas le
Blunt, Adam de la Ford, Alan de Esefeld, John de Merden, and others.
Seal of green wax, containing a sheild, barry wavy of six: legend
"S.Ni...lai de Saunford" (undated)
CTG 6:351
1271
By a deed dated on Monday next after the feast of St. Mark, 55 Hen 111,
Beatrix de Turberville released to Hawysia de Sanford five marks
annually rent, part of 10 l. which the said Beatrix was entitled to
receive annually by way of dower out of Melbury, under a settlement made
by a fine between Fulk Basset, Bishop of London, and said Beatrix.
Witness, Nicholas Bretun, Aval de Rocheford, Ad. Foliot, and others.
Hawisa de Sanford is described on her monumental brass in the church as
daughter of the Lord Basset. and from the terms of this deed she seems
to be the owner of this manor. Fulke Basset, bishop of London, mentioned
in the deed, was also Lord Basset of Wycombe.
Hutchins - History of Dorset 2:656
1284-86
Hundred de COLYTON
Hugo de Curtenay tenet manerium de COLYTON cum medietate hundredi de
Colyton de rege in capite pro unum feodi militis.
Hugh Curtenay holds the manor of Colyton with half the hundred of the
Colyton, of the King in chief for one knight's fee.
Feudal Aids 2:p329
1284-86
Hundred de COLYTON
Thomas de Saunford tenet manerium de WHYTEFORD cum membris, et
medietatem hundredi de COLITON, de heredibus Alice Byset per servicium
unius uncie de serico per annum, et iidem heredes illud tenere debent de
rege in capite.
Thomas de Saunford holds the manor of Whiteford with it's annexes and
half the hundred of Colyton from the heirs of Alice Bysett for one ounce
of silk per year, and those same heirs owe that to the king in chief.
Feudal Aids 2:p330
1292
Hugh de Curtenay died seised of amongst many others
Colyton, Devon and a foreign hundred in common with Sir Thomas de Saunford
Hugh his son aged 16 is his next heir
CIPM 3:23,24
1297
Hawise de Samford, wife or widow of Sir Laurence Samford presented as
patron to the church of Melbury-Samford
CTG 6:334-361
1299
Thomas de Saunford alias de Sanford
Writ to the escheator in Co. Chester concerning the lands &c of the said
Thomas who held of the heir of Philip Burnel, a minor and in the king's
wardship, 4 Dec 27 Edw. 1.
CHESTER Inq. Thursady 8 Jan 27 Edw. 1.
Nantwich ( Wicum Malbancum). A sixth part of the rents, tolls,
perquisites and mill.
Haselinton. A sixth part of the manor.
Aston. A sixth part of the manor.
Chester. 5s yearly rent
All held of the king in chief by service of 2 knights' fees.
Wilaston. Half a carucate of land held of William chanu by service of 4d
yearly.
Auda his sister, aged 24 is his next heir
DEVON Inq. made at Honeton on Thursday after the Epiphany, 27 Edw. 1.
Whyteford The manor held of the heirs of Alice Byset by service of 1/2oz
of silk for all service. He held nothing of the king in chief in the county.
Ada his sister 30 is his next heir.
The heirs of Alice Byset are of full age, and not in the king's wardship.
CIPM 3:392
1301
Hutchins mentions a deed dated 1301, 29 Edw 1 being a grant of Alda ,
sister to Sir Thomas de Saunford, of the manor of Melbury Samford to
Walter Foliot &c (now missing)
Hutchins - History of Dorset Vol 2:656
Undated
Walter Folliot is described in the epitaph in the church of Melbury
Samford as "Dominus de Melbury Osmund"
Hutchins - History of Dorset Vol 4:438.
1303
Alionora de Curtenay et Adam de Saunford tenet in COLITON et WITEFORD j. f.
Feudal Aids 1:365
1303
Alda de Sanford presented as patron to the church of Melbury-Samford
(Melbury Tuberville)
CTG 6:334-361
1304
Edmund de Mortuo Mari
Inq. p.m
Amongst many others
DORSET. Extent made at Knolton, 6 April, 33 Edward 1.
Melbur(y). The manor held by Hauwys de Saunford for 1/2 knight's fee.
CIPM 4:157,164
1308
Walter Foliot and Ada presented as patrons to the church of
Melbury-Samford (Melbury Tuberville)
CTG 6:334-361
1312
By a fine levied in the quinzine of St. Martin 6 Edw 11 (1312) in which
Peter Blunt was querent and Walter Foliot and Adam his wife were
deforciants, the manor of Melbury Saunford co. Dorset, and the manor of
Whyteford, co. Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their
lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of
the body of Joan begotten by said Nicholas, remainder to the right heirs
of Ada.
CTG 6:334-361
1313
"Agnes, widow of William de Wylaston sues Walter Ffloyot and Alda his
wife for dower of lands in Wylaston juxta Wich Malbank (Plea Rolls 4 & 5
Edw. 11 m 32 d"
Ormerod "Chershire" ??:??
1316
"Domina ejusdem Alianora de Curtenay. Burgus de COLFFORD in eodem.
Domina ejusdem predicta Alianora, et sunt ville que sequntar, scilicet:-
....
Villa de COLYTON cum HWTEFORDE et FORWODE, que sunt membra ad eandem, et
est domina ejusdem Alianora de Curtenay
Feudal Aids 1:383
1321
Aug 20 Westminster
Pardon to Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Hereford and Essex, pursuant to the
agreement lately made in Parliament last Midsummer, of any actions by
reason of anything done against Hugh le Despenser, the son and Hugh le
Despenser, the father, between 1 March and 19 August last.
The like to Henry as one of the followers of Roger Dammory pursuant to a
letter of the said Roger testifying the same.
The like to the following on the testimony of the said Roger
Nicholas de Percy.
CP 1321-1324:15
1321
Dec 7 Westminster
Commissioner to Oliver de Ingham and Robert Lewer to arrest Roger
Dammory, Hugh Daudele 'le fitz', Bartholomew de Badelesmere, Philips la
Beche, Henry de Tyeys, John de la Beche, Philips, Robert and Edmund his
brothers, John Giffard of Brymmesfeld, John Mautravers 'le fittz',
William de Whitefeld and Nicholas de Percy: the sheriffs, in whose
bailiwicks the said Roger and others made be found, are to commit them
to prison. By. K.
CP 1321-1324:40
1322
June 1 Rothwell
Commission of oyer and terminer to John Stonore, Ralph de Bedford, and
Thomas de Louth on complaint by Ingelram Berenger that William son of
Warin, John Mautravers, Nicholas de Percy, and William de Percy with
others entered his manors at Shupton and Tounhull, co. Southampton,
drove away his horses, cattle, sheep and goats, and committed other
trespasses. By. p.s.
The like to the same justices on complaint by said Ingelram that John
Strugg, Peter Skyedemore, John Mautravers, Nicholas de Percy, William de
Whitefeld, and Edmund de Plecy with others entered his manors at
Ebblesbourn, Alvedeston, and Brodemore, co. Wilts. committed like
trepasses, took and led away his horses, cattle, sheep and goats, and
carried away his goods. By. p.s.
CP 1321-1324:164-165
1322
May 28 Haverah
Commission of oyer and terminer to John Stonore, Ralph de Bedford, and
Thomas de Louth on the king's information that John Mautravers, William
de Whitefeld and Nicholas de Percy with others entered the manors of
Berton, asshele, Creuker, Bedhapton, and Mapeldorewell, Co.
Southhampton. lately in the king's hands, took and led away horses,
cattle, sheep and swans, and committed other trepasses. by p.s.
CP 1321-1324:165
1324
Walter Foliot and Ada presented to church of Melbury-Osmond 4 Dec 1324
CTG 6:334-361
1325
Commission to Adam Walrand and Robert de Hungerford Winchester. 4 May 18
Edward 11 (1325)
Wilts.
Inquisition:- Salisbury. Wednesday after St. John before the Latin Gate.
Laurence de Sancto Martino on Thursday before Whitsun 11 Edward 11.
demised a messuage and 2 carucates of land in Knouke to Nicholas de
Percy for life, who continued his seisin until the tenements were taken
into the king's hand by his forfeiture.
Reynold de Sancto Martino, grandfather of Laurence son of Laurence de
Sancto Martino, in the year 1 Edward 11, demised a messauge and half a
virgate of land in the same town to Richard de Sancto Martino for life,
who continued his seisin for 12 years, and then demised the tenements to
the said Nicholas for the lifetime of the said Richard; the said
Nicholas continued his seisin until the tenements were taken into the
king's hand by his forfeiture.
All the said tenements are held of Elizabeth de Bourgh by the service of
suit to her court at Craneborn; the messuage and 2 carucates are of the
yearly value of 8l., and the messuage and half a virgate are of the
yearly value of 6s. 8d.
Richard de Sancto Martino died at York on St. Simon and St. Jude 16
Edward 11 by a natural death; Nicholas de Percy was struck on the head
with a stone so that his brains came out, and died at Melane on Monday
after St. Peter's chains 18 Edward 11.
Laurence son of Laurence de Sancto Martino is the next heir of the said
Laurence and Reynold.
CIM 2:205,206
1325
Dec 12 Tower of London
Pardon to Micheal Rosel for the death of Nicholas son of Arnold de Percy
of Kildale, and for the death of Ralph Scot of Neuton in Cliveland, and
of any consequent outlawries.
By. K. on the information of G. le Scrop
CP 1324-1327:201
1331
Alda de Saunforde died siesed of
CHESTER.
Nantwich (Wyci Malbani) Neuehalle, Astoun by Neuehalle, and Couhulle. A
sixth part of the towns
Haslintoun. A twelfth part of the town and 5s rent there.
Nantwich A sixth part of the serjeantry and bedelry of the hundred.
All held of the king in chief by service of a knight's fee.
Rydingges. The manor held of Thomas Schaue in chief by service "unius
sacke et j pickle" when there is war in Wales.
Joan the wife of John Mautravers, aged 26 years, is her next heir.
There is no mention of Whiteford Devon.
CIPM 7:200
1337
Sir John Mautravers, senior, knt, presented as patron to the church of
Melbury Osmond
History of Dorset - Hutchins 2:656
1338
In the Red Book of Fees of the Exchequer in the county of Chester, there
are 82 fees of the county of Chester according to an inquisition. The
following persons amongst many others held fees.
Adam Mustel
Laurence de Quanford both together holding 3 fees of the barony of Wich
Maubanc
CP 1338-1340:33
1338
By a fine levied in the quinzine of St. Hilary, 12 Edw. 111 (1338) John
Mautravers senior with Joan his wife settled the manors of Melbury
Samford and Osmond to upon themselves for their lives, with remainder to
Ralph de Warren and Joan his wife, and the heirs of the said Ralph by
Joan his wife, remainder to right heirs of Joan the wife of said Maltravers.
History of Dorset - Hutchins 2:656
John Mautravers had 3 daugthers Joan, Alice and Elizabeth by Joan
Foliot, his second wife.
Joan married firstly Ralph de Warren then Sir Alan Cheney and died s.p.
Alice married John Browning and who seems to have married previously
to Thomas de Rodburgh.
Elizabeth married Roger Folvile. Alice and Elizabeth were living in 1400.
Collectanea Topographica Genealogica Vol V1 p334-361
History of Dorset - Hutchins 2:656
1342
Sept 7 Eastry
Alexander de Veneables and Joan his wife, late the wife of John
Mautravers the elder, staying in England, have letters nominating Robert
de Salkeld, clerk, and Roger del Wyche as their attorneys in Ireland for
two two years
Richard de Eccleshale received the attorneys by writ.
CP 1340-1343:511
1344
Alexander Venables, who presented as patron to the church of Melbury
Samford 5 July 1344.
History of Dorset - Hutchins 2:656
1346
Alexander Venables held in Melbury Turberville in Tollerford hundred
half a knight's fee which Ada Saunford formerly held ( Aid Record)
History of Dorset - Hutchins 2:656
1350
Barony of Wich Malbanc (Nantwich)
"The second subdivision of this share fell to Johanna (Basset)......her
estate passed to the Sanfords.....This family of Sanford terminated in
Johanna, daugther and heiress of Sir Lawrence Sanford, who married Sir
John Maltravers, and afterwards Alexander le Venables and by Inq 23 Edw.
111 (Harl MSS 2038.137) confirmed by another Inq.pm. 9 Richard 11 is
found to have died siesed, inter alia, of a sixth part of Wich Malbank,
and to have a daughter Joanna, successively wife of Ralph Warren and Sir
Alan Cheny, who died s.p. leaving Alice ( the sister of the second
Joanna) wife of William Browning her heir."
Ormerod "Chershire"
n.b. Ormerod is incorrect in one aspect. The first mentioned Joanna was
the heiress of Alda who was the daughter of Sir Lawrence, Alda being the
wife of Walter Foliot.
1352
Oct 24 London
Order to Sir Thomas de Ferrers, justice of Cestre, or his lieutenant, to
proceed according to law and reason in taking the assize of novel
dissesin which the prince understands to be pending before him in the
court of Cestre, in pursuance of a petition from the prince's yeoman,
Alan Cheyne, and Joan his wife, showing that Alexander de Venables,
(sometime husband of Joan late the wife of Nicholas de Percy, mother of
the aforesaid Joan wife of Alan, whose heir she is), gave and granted to
William de Prayers of the county of Cestre, his wife being unable to
oppose him in his lifetime, the manor of Ruddyngges which the
petitioners claim as Joan's inheritance,-to do what law and reason
demand, without showing favour to either party, if Alan and Joan wish to
sue for the manor against William in the court of Cestre.
Palatinate of Chester 1352: 79
Paul Mackenzie
F.N. Craig has a detailed discussion of the link between the
Bassets and Sanfords in NEHG Vol 150 July 1988, page 238 and so on.
I will just give an outline of the article. As the references are too
numerous to list, those interested should consult this article.
GILBERT BASSET of Bicester and Stratton Oxfordshire. He was dead by 1156
when his son was holding Compton Basset.
THOMAS BASSET married Alice da. of Alan Dunsterville. Thomas died c1182
and was succeeded by his eldest son Gilbert. The second son Thomas, had
been granted Colinton and Whiteford, Devon, by King Richard and
Headington in 1203. The third son was Alan.
ALAN BASSET d1231 , brother of Thomas, and who was succeeded in turn by
his sons Gilbert who died in 1241, Fulk who died in 1259 and Philip who
died in 1271. He had three daughters Phillipa, Alice and Joan.
ALICE BASSET. Evidence for her marriage to John Sanford comes from a
grant to her brother Gilbert Basset of the right to present one canon,
by the prior and Canons of Blackmore dedicated to St. Laurence. The
grant refers to the late Alan, son of their late patron Sir John
Sanford, and to Sir Gilbert Basset, uncle of the same Alan, and to
Alice, wife of Sir John. The lands of John de Sanford included Aston
Sanford. In addition to Alan, Alice and John Sanford had a daughter
Cecilia and sons Gilbert, Nicholas, Roger, and Laurence de Sanford. The
four sons appear without any indication of relationship, as witnesses to
a grant to Philip. Gilbert however named his father as John in 1233-4.
Nicholas was in possession of Aston by 1242.
LAURENCE SANFORD. His paternity appears in a charter without date by
which Nicholas Sanford gave to Laurence his brother, all of his manor of
Aston, which he had of the gift of John Sanford, deceased, his father.
Melbury had been acquired by Fulk Basset, the uncle of Laurence, from
Bartholomew de Turberville in 1246. How the Sanfords obtained Melbury
is not clear, but in 1271 Hawise (the widow of Laurence) was dealing
with it. In 1257 Laurence Sanford held three fees in the barony of Wych
Malbank, Cheshire. These lands were part of the inheritance of Phillipa,
Countess of Oxford, Joan and Alice. At some this Alice Basset
inherited the manor of Whiteford Devon from her father and gave it to
Laurence Sanford, when Thomas the son of Laurence was holding it. Also
in Glamorgan was the vill of St. Nicholas, where William Corbert gave
land in free marriage with Hawise his daughter to Sir Laurence Sanford.
Laurence died before 1271. Laurence and Hawise were succeeded by their
son Thomas, who died in 1299 leaving his heir as his sister Ada.
ADA SANFORD married Walter Foliot, died 1331. Her daughter Joan married
Nicholas Percy.
It should be noted that Hutchins and Craig are in diasagreement in
Hutchins states that Hawisa is described on her monumental brass in the
church (Melbury) as the daughter of Lord Basset, which is certainly
contrary to the above!!!
Regards
Paul
Hutchins- History of Dorset 2:656.
CE Wood
appears, NEHGR is easily searched by volume number, but not date.
CE Wood
Todd A. Farmerie
In many ways we have all been reinventing the wheel. NEHGR 142:239-241
details all these connections, citing pretty much all of the documents
that we have struggled to find. It concludes that Alice Basset/John de
Sandford marriage, and gives them children: Alan, Cecily, Gilbert,
Nicholas, Roger and Laurence. (We have concluded/collected three
others, Sir John, who I think was either eldest or second son (behind
Alan), and d.s.p., Fulk, the future archbishop, and Aline, wife of Henry
de Bathe.)
As to the Wich Malbank inheritance, "Alice Basset [my note: daughter of
Thomas and one of the three Wich coheiresses] inherited the manor of
Whiteford, Devon, from her father and gave it to Laurence Sanford, as
apears in 1275 when Thomas the son of Laurence was holding it (Rotuli
Hundredorum, 1:68)."
And with respect to the current question: "Also in Glamorgan was the
vill of St. Nicholas, where William Corbet gave land in free marriage
with Hawise his daughter to Laurence de Saundeforde, according to a
charter shown to the Barons of the Treasury in 1254. This William Corbet
of Chaddesley was a younger son of Robert Corbet, the fourth baron of
Caus (A.E.C., _The Family of Corbet_ [London, 1917], 2:168). For this
charter A.E.C. cites Dods. MMS. Communia Roll 7, which seems to be from
item 29 in the Dodsworth manuscript in the Bodleian Library listed by
Joseph Hunter, _Three Catalogues_ (London 1838), p. 111."
Assuming that this last is an accurate indication of what appears in the
charter, there can be little doubt about the parentage of Hawise, wife
of Laurence Sanford. I must wonder whether the memorial brass of the
wife of Laurence has been confused with that of his mother, or some such
error.
taf
Millerf...@aol.com
that Lawrence Sandford [Sampford] was married to Hawise, daughter of William
Corbet, and granddaughter of Robert Corbet, 4th lord of Caus, and that it was his
mother, not his wife, who was a Basset. Thanks to him for that, and to Paul
Mackenzie for his helpful work on the subject. Can we now regard Mr Farmerie's
conclusion as agreed?
MM
WJho...@aol.com
rbe...@paradise.net.nz writes:
<< John de Sanford=Cecily de Sewardstone
|
John de Sanford=Alice Basset
|
Gilbert de Sanford=Loretta la Zouche
|
Alice de Sanford=Robert de Vere >>
Thank you Rosie, this extends the ancestry I had for James Claypoole, the
immigrant, who descends from this Alice.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< ALAN BASSET d1231 , brother of Thomas, and who was succeeded in turn by
his sons Gilbert who died in 1241, Fulk who died in 1259 and Philip who
died in 1271. He had three daughters Phillipa, Alice and Joan. >>
In addition to the three sons and three daughters listed here, Alan de Basset
had as eldest son a Thomas, who d 1230 but had grants of land in 1222 and
1224, seven and five years prior to the first known grant to Gilbert.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< ALAN BASSET d1231 , brother of Thomas, and who was succeeded in turn by
his sons Gilbert who died in 1241, Fulk who died in 1259 and Philip who
died in 1271. He had three daughters Phillipa, Alice and Joan. >>
What does this do to the information presented here in May that this couple
also had a daughter Aline who m Drew of Montaigu who were thereby grandparents
to Simon the 1st Baron Montaigu (d 26 Sep 1316)
Are Aline and Alice the same person?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< ALICE BASSET. Evidence for her marriage to John Sanford comes from a
grant to her brother Gilbert Basset of the right to present one canon,
by the prior and Canons of Blackmore dedicated to St. Laurence. The
grant refers to the late Alan, son of their late patron Sir John
Sanford, and to Sir Gilbert Basset, uncle of the same Alan, and to
Alice, wife of Sir John. The lands of John de Sanford included Aston
Sanford. In addition to Alan, Alice and John Sanford had a daughter
Cecilia and sons Gilbert, Nicholas, Roger, and Laurence de Sanford. The
four sons appear without any indication of relationship, as witnesses to
a grant to Philip. Gilbert however named his father as John in 1233-4.
Nicholas was in possession of Aston by 1242. >>
And son Fulk
Will Johnson
Todd A. Farmerie
. . . and Warin and David. For a more compelte list of sons, see my
earlier post (the one that first renamed the Trusted Sources thread to
Basset and Sandford - although the list there is short on daughters).
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
The full list we have generated so far would be:
1. John (Sir John was the second witness, after Fulk Basset, of the
grant to Gilbert Basset of the right to name the 'Basset canon', while
the text indicates that Alan's father was now deceased, suggesting that
the witness was son and current senior representative of the family)
2. Alan (deceased a bit before the granting of the Basset canon, which
explicitly names his parents)
3. Gilbert (witness of Basset canon grant, as well as several Basset
charters, eventual heir)
4. Nicholas (names father as John in grant to Laurence, co-witness with
Gilbert)
5. Roger (witnesses grant from Nicholas to Laurence)
6. Laurence (named as brother by Nicholas, Philip Basset took direct
interest in his estate)
7. Fulk, Archbishop (called nephew of Philip Basset, witnessed Philip
Basset charter along with Gilbert)
8. Aline, m. Henry de Bathe
9. Cecilia m. William de Gorham
It does not look like Archbishop John belongs here, through. He appears
to have been a generation younger (someone who died 1294 is not likely
to have been brother of someone who died as an adult between 1223 and
1230), probably a nephew brought over to Ireland through the patronage
of uncle Archbishop Fulk. Since Gilbert was the surviving heir and
himself d. 1249 leaving a daughter and heiress, I suspect that Abp John
was son of Nicholas, Roger, or Laurence. I know of no children of the
first two (and I only know of Roger himself from a single charter). The
son and heir of Laurence, named Thomas, died 1299 and so outlived the
Archbishop who died 1294. Hence John he could well have been a younger
brother of Thomas.
FWIW, I found a photo of Abp Fulk's tomb:
http://www.stpatrickscathedral.ie/13.htm
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> 7. Fulk, Archbishop (called nephew of Philip Basset, witnessed Philip
> Basset charter along with Gilbert)
I finally got a look at DNB, and it cites the Cal. of Papal Letters that
Alex. IV granted a dispensation for Philip Basset to marry Ela, Countess
of Warwick, "on 'the signification of his nephew, the Archbishop of
Dublin'". It goes on to say, "It seems certain that Fulk was
illegitimate son of one or other of Philip;s brothers, either Gilbert
Basset (d. 1241) [q.v.] or Fulk Basset, bishop of London, but whether of
the knight or the bishiop there seems no evidence to determine." This
last comment makes one wonder whether, if there is no evidence on which
to conclude which brother, how there is such certainty that it is one or
the other, and not some other sibling (like, say, Alice). Here, though,
we have the apparent source for the Britannica.
> It does not look like Archbishop John belongs here, through. He appears
> to have been a generation younger (someone who died 1294 is not likely
> to have been brother of someone who died as an adult between 1223 and
> 1230), probably a nephew brought over to Ireland through the patronage
> of uncle Archbishop Fulk. Since Gilbert was the surviving heir and
> himself d. 1249 leaving a daughter and heiress, I suspect that Abp John
> was son of Nicholas, Roger, or Laurence. I know of no children of the
> first two (and I only know of Roger himself from a single charter). The
> son and heir of Laurence, named Thomas, died 1299 and so outlived the
> Archbishop who died 1294. Hence John he could well have been a younger
> brother of Thomas.
This speculation is misplaced. A significant issue involved in the
instalation of John as Archbishop was his illegitimacy, well documented
in Papal Letters. Thus succession is no key, and he could have been son
of any of the brothers, even of the Bishop himself.
taf