Testamenta Vetusta: Lady Strange of Knokyn
The Williams Family
Would some kind soul be so good as to post the abstract of
Constance, Lady Strange's will as it appears on page 235 of "Testamenta
Vetusta." Thanks so much!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Chris Phillips
> Would some kind soul be so good as to post the abstract of
> Constance, Lady Strange's will as it appears on page 235 of "Testamenta
> Vetusta." Thanks so much!
By a stroke of luck I copied it a few weeks ago:
"CONSTANCE LADY STRANGE
Constance Lady L'Estrange[1], on the 28th March, 1438[2], make my
Will, by command of my Lord and husband, Richard L'Estrange.
Lord of Knockin and Mohun. My body to be buried in holy
sepulture, wheresoever it shall please my Lord and husband.
For two hundred masses, with placebo and dirige, to be
celebrated for my soul, c s.; to my cousins, the Lord Talbot
and the Lady Joyce Tiptoft.
1. Dugdale does not state of whom she was the daughter, but
merely says that she was the first wife of Richard Lord Strange
of Knockin.
2. Dugdale's Abstract, vol.i, p.665, dates this will March 8th.
The date in the text and the bequests to her cousins are taken
from a MS note of her testament."
At some stage I hope to look at the PCC copy of her will. If past experience
with these Testamenta Vetusta abstracts is anything to go by, there may be
more information there.
Chris Phillips
Vickie Elam White
>1. Dugdale does not state of whom she was the daughter, but
>merely says that she was the first wife of Richard Lord Strange
>of Knockin.
I haven't checked this out myself, but I'll pass it on to you in case
it helps:
Evidently Richard and Constance had a papal dispensation to marry
in 1408, and she was called Constance de GREY (per CP Vol.XII/1:355
note n and Burke's Peerage & Baronetage p. 2551). I don't know why
the dispensation was necessary, though.
The Lord Talbot to whom she refers was John TALBOT, K.G. who
died in 1453. He was the son of Richard TALBOT and Ankaret le
STRANGE of Blackmere. Perhaps Richard and Constance needed
the dispensation because of the STRANGE relationship? I don't
have anything on Joyce TIPTOFT handy right now.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Vickie Elam White
Chris Phillips
I wrote:
> >1. Dugdale does not state of whom she was the daughter, but
> >merely says that she was the first wife of Richard Lord Strange
> >of Knockin.
Vickie Elam White commented:
> Evidently Richard and Constance had a papal dispensation to marry
> in 1408, and she was called Constance de GREY (per CP Vol.XII/1:355
> note n and Burke's Peerage & Baronetage p. 2551). I don't know why
> the dispensation was necessary, though.
>
> The Lord Talbot to whom she refers was John TALBOT, K.G. who
> died in 1453. He was the son of Richard TALBOT and Ankaret le
> STRANGE of Blackmere. Perhaps Richard and Constance needed
> the dispensation because of the STRANGE relationship? I don't
> have anything on Joyce TIPTOFT handy right now.
Thanks for that additional comment.
Actually the puzzle of Joan/Constance's identity was the reason I had copied
the Testamenta Vertusta abstract.
The Calendar of Papal Letters says that Richard and Joan were related in the
third and third degrees of kindred, and that she was the daughter of Lord le
Grey. Also, that the parties were from the dioceses of Lichfield and
Lincoln - so, since Richard was of the diocese of Lichfield, Constance seems
to have been of the diocese of Lincoln.
On the basis of the pre-volume-14 Complete Peerage, this would point
towards. Joan being a daughter of Reynold, Lord Grey of Ruthin, whose
maternal grandfather is said in volume 6 to be Roger, Lord Strange of
Knockin. This would give the specified relationship between Richard and
Constance, and would also make her a second cousin of Joyce Tiptoft, and (as
I reckon) a fourth cousin of Lord Talbot. (Douglas Richardson had come to
the same conclusion, and pointed out this possibility off-list when I posted
on Constance last month.)
The problem is that volume 14 corrects the previous version, and instead
makes Reynold's grandfather John, Lord Strange of Blackmere. If this is
correct, it spoils the 3rd and 3rd degree relationship. Perhaps it's worth
looking further into the evidence for this correction.
The other possibility that occurred to me - again, a speculative one - is
that there could be two different women here - Joan and Constance - and that
Joan could perhaps be the known daughter Joan of Robert, Lord Grey of
Rotherfield (d.1387/8) - this Joan was at the time of the dispensation a
young widow, and she died soon afterwards. CP conjectures that Robert's
mother was a daughter of Bartholomew Burghersh, which would agree with the
3rd and 3rd degree relationship. However, Doug is sceptical about this
identification of Robert's mother. Another point against this is that
Richard's wife appears in the Register of Papal Letters for 1413 as "Joan
alias Constance", which suggests that the Joan of the dispensation is indeed
the same woman as the Constance of the will (unless there is some
confusion).
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
> The problem is that volume 14 corrects the previous version, and instead
> makes Reynold's grandfather John, Lord Strange of Blackmere. If this is
> correct, it spoils the 3rd and 3rd degree relationship. Perhaps it's worth
> looking further into the evidence for this correction.
This is what's said in vol.14 about this question:
"The filiation of Eleanor is proved by the deposition of William Alnwick in
1408 (College of Arms MS., Proc. in Cur. Mar. I 227). Also, this lady
Eleanor had a br., Hamon (Cal. Pat. Rolls, 1381-5, p.33); Eleanor, da. of
Roger Lestrange of Knockin, also suggested as her father, did not. See Jack,
op. cit."
The reference is to R.I. Jack, 'The Greys of Ruthin', PhD thesis, London,
1961.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
The deposition dated 1408 cited by C.P. 14 sounds like good evidence
to me for the identification of the parentage of Eleanor le Strange,
wife of Reynold de Grey, 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin. Eleanor died in
1396, so the deposition is almost contemporary with her lifetime.
This correction would make Eleanor le Strange the daughter of John le
Strange, 2nd Lord Strange of Blackmere (died 1349), by his wife,
Ankaret le Boteler. If so, she would have the following all new
descent from King Henry II as follows:
HENRY II, King of England, by a mistress, IDA _____.
WILLIAM LONGESPÉE, Earl of Salisbury, married ELA OF SALISBURY.
IDA LONGESPÉE, married WALTER FITZ ROBERT, Knt., Baron of Little
Dunmow, Essex.
ELA FITZ WALTER, married WILLIAM DE ODDINGSELES, Knt., of Solihull,
co. Warwick.
IDA DE ODDINGSELES, married ROGER DE HERDEBURGH, Knt., of
Prilleston, Norfolk [see CLINTON 12].
ELA DE HERDEBURGH, married WILLIAM LE BOTELER, 1st Lord Boteler of
Wem.
ANKARET LE BOTELER, married JOHN LE STRANGE, 2nd Lord Strange of
Blackmere.
ELEANOR LE STRANGE, married Reynold de Grey, 2nd Lord Grey of
Ruthin.
The above royal descent goes through the new Herdeburgh-Oddingseles
connection, which matter was discussed in several posts this past year
on the newsgroup.
The above arrangement assumes that Ida Longespee, wife of Walter Fitz
Robert, was the second daughter of that name of William Longespee,
Earl of Salisbury. To verify that this Ida Longespee belongs in that
generation, this past week I checked the chronology of the family of
William de Oddingseles, Knt., who married Ida Longespee's daughter,
Ela Fitz Walter. My investigation indicates that William de
Oddingseles was born say 1230/5, which date is entirely compatible
with William's wife, Ela Fitz Walter, being a granddaughter of William
Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, as
above. Research indicates that William de Oddingseles' father,
William, Sr., and uncle, Gerard, both were of full age before 1239.
William, Sr., and Gerard's parents, Hugh de Oddingseles and Basile de
Limesey, in turn were evidently married about 1200. For my prior
statement that there were two Ida Longespee's in the same generation,
please see the archives.
For interest sake, I've provided a list of the numerous colonial
immmigrants who descend from Eleanor le Strange, wife of Reynold de
Grey. For the descents from Eleanor le Strange down to the individual
immigrants, see the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, soon to be
released. The book is still available for a short time at a special
pre-publication price for newsgroup members. Please contact me at my
e-mail address below for details.
Many thanks to Chris Phillips for pointing out the correction in C.P.
14 regarding Eleanor le Strange's parentage. Chris' work is
outstanding as usual! Way to go, Chris! Mutual collaboration,
collegiality, and free association are the keys to unraveling the
mysteries of the past.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - -
List of colonial immigrants who descend from Eleanor le Strange, wife
of Reynold de Grey, Knt., 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin:
l. Christopher Batt.
2. Essex Beville.
3. William Bladen.
4. Mary Bourchier.
5. Elizabeth Bosvile (two descents).
6. George & Robert Brent.
7. Charles Calvert (three descents).
8. Jeremy Clarke.
9. Matthew Clarkson.
10. St.Leger Codd.
11. Humphrey Davie.
12. Edward Digges.
13. Thomas Dudley (two descents).
14. Muriel Gurdon (two descents).
15. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
16. Jane Haviland.
17. Warham Horsmanden.
18. Anne Humphrey.
19. Mary Launce.
20. Simon Lynde.
21. Anne Mauleverer.
22. Philip & Thomas Nelson.
23. Thomas Owsley.
24. Herbert Pelham.
25. Robert Peyton.
26. George Reade (two descents).
27. William Rodney.
28. Katherine Saint Leger.
29. Richard Saltonstall (two descents).
30. Maria Johanna Somerset (three descents).
31. Olive Welby.
32. John West.
33. Thomas Wingfield (three descents).
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<alci23$ij5$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Douglas Richardson
Yes, you're quite correct. I'm very skeptical that Maud, wife of John
de Grey, Lord Grey of Rotherfield, was the daughter of Sir Bartholomew
de Burghersh (died 1355). Among other factors, I find that King
Richard II publicly acknowledged his kinship to Bartholomew's known
daughter, Joan de Mohun, and to his granddaughter, Elizabeth Despenser
(Joan and Elizabeth being related to the king by virtue of their
common descent from the Fiennes family). In contrast, I haven't yet
encountered any statement of kinship between Richard II and the Grey
family. If anyone knows of such a statement, I'd like to know about
it.
Until some concrete evidence surfaces that Maud de Grey was a
Burghersh, I've removed her as a daughter of Sir Bartholomew de
Burghersh in the draft of the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry.
The evidence Complete Peerage gives for Maud's parentage is
insufficient in my opinion to warrant the conclusion that Maud was a
Burghersh.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<alalap$let$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> The deposition dated 1408 cited by C.P. 14 sounds like good evidence
> to me for the identification of the parentage of Eleanor le Strange,
> wife of Reynold de Grey, 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin. Eleanor died in
> 1396, so the deposition is almost contemporary with her lifetime.
Yes - and obviously a lot closer in time to the events than the 16th-century
inscription relied on originally by CP in making Eleanor a Strange of
Knockin.
I'm grateful to Kelsey J. Williams for sending me details from Hamon Le
Strange's "Le Strange Records, A.D. 1100-1310" concerning members of the
Blackmere branch called Hamon (Eleanor having had a brother called Hamon). A
Hamon le Strange appears in the retinue of John Strange [of Blackmere]
during the Crecy campaign (1346). The author's interpretation is that Hamon
is a brother of John in one place, and a son of John in another, but the
chronology definitely suggests he would be a brother. Even so, it does
appear to demonstrate that the name Hamon continued to be used in the
Blackmere branch of the family.
However, if accepted, the correction about Eleanor's identity does throw a
spanner into the works of the identification of Joan/Constance, wife of
Richard Grey of Knockin, which worked out so neatly on the basis of the old
identification of Eleanor. I wonder if an alternative solution to the
Joan/Constance problem can be found.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Yes, special thanks also to Kelsey Williams. I'm grateful for his
help as well. You guys are the best!
Regarding the new identification of Eleanor le Strange, new research
for the Plantagenet book indicates that Eleanor and her husband,
Reynold de Grey, had a son, John, evidently named for her father, John
le Strange. I also see that Eleanor and Reynold named a daughter,
Ida. As a general rule, the appearance of the given name, Ida,
indicates a descent from the Longespee family. Under the new
arrangement, Eleanor le Strange has a valid Longespee descent that
includes many women named Ida. As daughter of John le Strange, for
instance, Eleanor (le Strange) de Grey would have had an aunt named
Ida le Boteler.
Actually I'd puzzled several times over the appearance of the given
name, Ida, in the Grey family. I didn't understand it until now.
With the new Longespee-Oddingseles-Herdeburgh connection in place in
the le Strange ancestry, it all makes perfect sense.
In a related vein, Peter Sutton and I have been an on-going discussion
on the identity of the parentage of Maud, wife of John Tuchet (died
1372). An ancient Willoughby pedigree identifies Maud as the
"daughter of Reginald, and sister of Sir John de Grey." Peter
suggested that Maud Tuchet might be a member of the Grey family of
Ruthin. I recently learned that Reynold Grey and his wife, Eleanor le
Strange, had a son, John. If so, it would appear would appear that
Reynold and Eleanor are Maud Tuchet's parents.
While I'd like to see better evidence to confirm Maud's parentage, the
chronology fits fine. Also, I see that John Tuchet (husband of Maud)
served under the Earl of Pembroke about the time he married Maud. If
Maud was daughter of Reynold and Eleanor (le Strange) de Grey, then
she would be related to the Earl of Pembroke through her paternal
grandmother, Elizabeth (de Hastings) de Grey. As daughter of Reynold
de Grey, Maud would have been a near kinswoman to the Earl of
Pembroke.
Moreover, I find another piece which points to Maud Tuchet being a
member of this Grey family. If Maud was the daughter of Reynold and
Eleanor Grey, then she would be the sister to Ida Grey who married
John Cokayne. I note that Maud (Grey) Tuchet married (3rd) Sir John
Daubridgecourt, by whom she had several children, including a
daughter, Joan, who married another John Cokayne. A common Cokayne
connection between both Maud and her sister, Ida, makes perfect sense
to me. This looks very good indeed.
Presuming that Maud, wife of John Tuchet, is the daughter of Reynold
de Grey and his wife, Eleanor le Strange, the following immigrants
would have the new descent from King Henry II:
1. John Bevan.
2. Francis Dade.
3. Henry Fleete.
4. Percival Lowell.
5. Henry & William Randolph.
6. Hawte Wyatt.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<alg5mm$q0s$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Douglas Richardson
For further evidence of Eleanor le Strange's parentage, I find that on
20 Feb. 1352 Thomas de Ferrers, knt., her step-father, acknowledged a
debt of 700 marks to her husband, Reynold de Grey of Ruthin, "to be
levied etc. in the county of Leicester." [Reference: Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1349-1354 (1906), pg. pg. 519]. This debt was surely in
connection with Eleanor and Reynold's marriage, which no doubt took
place around the time of this debt, but certainly before 31 Oct. 1353.
This document has been ignored by Grey researchers who failed to
connect Reynold de Grey with Thomas de Ferrers.
Likewise, that Reynold de Grey was fully aware of Eleanor le Strange's
Boteler relatives is similarly confirmed by his witnessing a release
to her uncle, Edward le Boteler, clerk, in 1358, regarding rights to
Edward's manor at Willey, co. Warwick [Reference: Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1354-1360 (1908), pg. 493]. Again, this document has likewise
been ignored, as there was previously nothing to suggest that Reynold
de Grey had any connection with Edward le Boteler.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<alg5mm$q0s$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> In a related vein, Peter Sutton and I have been an on-going discussion
> on the identity of the parentage of Maud, wife of John Tuchet (died
> 1372). An ancient Willoughby pedigree identifies Maud as the
> "daughter of Reginald, and sister of Sir John de Grey." Peter
> suggested that Maud Tuchet might be a member of the Grey family of
> Ruthin. I recently learned that Reynold Grey and his wife, Eleanor le
> Strange, had a son, John. If so, it would appear would appear that
> Reynold and Eleanor are Maud Tuchet's parents.
> Moreover, I find another piece which points to Maud Tuchet being a
> member of this Grey family. If Maud was the daughter of Reynold and
> Eleanor Grey, then she would be the sister to Ida Grey who married
This does all seem to fit together very well. The parentage of Ida, the wife
of John Cokayne, depends on later visitation pedigrees, I think, although
there is a fair amount of circumstantial contemporary evidence to support
it. But one of the puzzles was why a daughter of Reynold and Eleanor should
bear the name Ida, which as you say usually occurred only in a small set of
related families. The corrected identification of Eleanor does seem to
explain that.
For what it's worth, there are a number of transactions from the 1390s in
which members of the Tuchet family occur together with John Cokayne [the
husband of Ida]. I've assumed that John was acting as a feoffee for the
Tuchets (with apparently one example vice versa), and that the connection
arose because they were near neighbours - John being described as of
Bearwardcote, Derbyshire, about 3 miles from the Tuchet holdings of
Markeaton and Mackworth. If your proposed identification of Maud is correct,
they would also be closely related - John Cokayne's wife being the aunt of
John Tuchet (b. 1371).
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
For the interest of the many people here on the newsgroup who have the
new descent from King Henry II through Eleanor le Strange, wife of
Reynold de Grey, I've posted below a copy of the account of this
couple which will appear in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet
Ancestry. Among other pieces of evidence which point to Eleanor le
Strange's parentage, I note that the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire
refers to Eleanor as "fil. D'ni Strange de Blackmore" (that is,
daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
GREY FAMILY OF RUTHIN
1. REYNOLD DE GREY, Knt., 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin, of Ruthin, co.
Denbigh, Wales, Harrold, Puddington, and Wrest (in Silsoe), co.
Bedford, Over Bletchley, co. Buckingham, Hemingford Grey and Yelling,
co. Huntingdon, 2nd but 1st surviving son and heir, born about 1323
(aged 30 in 1353). He married before 31 Oct. 1353 ELEANOR LE STRANGE,
daughter of John le Strange, 2nd Lord Strange of Blackmere, by Ankaret
(descendant of King Henry II), daughter of William le Boteler, lst
Lord Boteler of Wem [see BLACKMERE 10 for her ancestry]. They had
four sons, Reynold, Knt., John, Edmund, and Roger, clerk, and one
daughter, Ida. In 1352 he was pardoned a fine of £20 for trespasses
and extortions in Bedfordshire. The same year Thomas de Ferrers, Knt.
(step-father of his wife) acknowledged a debt of 700 marks which he
owed him. In 1353 they received a papal indult for plenary remission.
He was summoned to Parliament from 15 Mar. 1353/4 by writs directed
Reginaldo de Grey de Riffyn. He accompanied the King in his
expeditions to France in 1355 and 1359 in the King's retinue. In 1381
Eleanor petitioned the king for a pardon for her brother, Hamon le
Strange, for the death of Richard son of Hereward Galeys. He deposed
in the Scrope and Grosvenor controversy in 1386. SIR REYNOLD DE GREY,
2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin, died 28 July or 4 Aug. 1388. His widow died
20 Apr 1396.
References:
Miscellanea Gen. et Her. 3rd ser. 3: 223. T. Blore, Hist. & Antiq. of
the County of Rutland 1 Pt. 2 (1811): 165 (Grey pedigree). H.S.P. 2
(1870): 74-75 (1619 Vis. Leicester) (Gray pedigree: "Reginald Dn's
Gray de Ruthin = Elinor. fil. D'ni Strange de Blackmore"). H.S.P. 19
(1884): 17 (1884 Vis. Beds) (identifies daughter Ida). Cal. of
Entries in the Papal Registers: Letters 3 (1897): 510. Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1381-1385 (1897), pg. 33. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1385-1389 (1900),
pg. 478. Genealogist n.s. 18 (1902): 99. Cal. Close Rolls, 1349-1354
(1906), pg. 519. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1350-1354 (1907), pg. 296. Cal.
Close Rolls, 1354-1360 (1908), pg. 493. VCH Bedford 2 (1908):
326-327. H. Le Strange, Le Strange Records (1916), chart pg. 288.
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1370-1374 (1914), pg. 442. Cal. IPM 10 (1921):
96-97. Cal. Close Rolls, 1389-1392 (1922), pg. 150. C.P. 6 (1926):
154-155. VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 277. VCH Huntingdon 2 (1932):
310-311. Reg. of Edward the Black Prince 3 (1932): 169, 398. Records
of Harrold Priory (Bedfordshire Hist. Rec. Soc., vol. 17) (1935): 128
(license), 130-131 (charter), 144-147 (charters), 214-216. Paget
(1957) 261: 1 (chart) (sub Grey of Ruthyn). List of Inq. ad Quod
Damnum 2 (PRO, Lists and Indexes, No. 22) (repr. 1963): 556. Bull.
Instutute Hist. Research 38 (1965): 1-19. Paget (1977), pg. 466.
Cal. IPM 17 (1988): 254. I.H. Jeayes, Desc. Catalogue of the Charters
and Muniments in the Possession of and rel. to the Property lately
belonging to the Lady Lucas [FHL Microfiche 6085303, Fiches 1 & 2 of
21].
Daphne Kilbourn-Jacob
Somehow I missed the posting that details the kinship between Eleanor
le Strange and King Henry II, possibly because of the breakdown between
the newsgroup and Rootsweb. As my lineage icludes King Henry, via Gov.
Thomas Dudley, I am very interested in this new data and was hoping that
you might either repost it or e-mail the original post to me privately.
I would be very grateful to you. I did check 'The Henry Project' but it
does not include a descendancy table as far as I can tell and I also
don't find the original in the Archives.
Thank you very much for this and your other fine work.
Regards,
Daphne Kilbourn-Jacob
Douglas Richardson Wrote:
> For the interest of the many people here on the newsgroup who have the
> new descent from King Henry II through Eleanor le Strange, wife of
> Reynold de Grey, I've posted below a copy of the account of this
> couple which will appear in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet
> Ancestry. Among other pieces of evidence which point to Eleanor le
> Strange's parentage, I note that the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire
> refers to Eleanor as "fil. D'ni Strange de Blackmore"
> daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere).
>
Douglas Richardson
I've e-mailed you a copy of the first six posts in this thread dealing
with the new royal ancestry of Eleanor le Strange, wife of Reynold de
Grey. Hopefully you've already received the e-mail.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
daphn...@snet.net (Daphne Kilbourn-Jacob) wrote in message news:<3D7E14...@snet.net>...
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> For further evidence of Eleanor le Strange's parentage, I find that on
> 20 Feb. 1352 Thomas de Ferrers, knt., her step-father, acknowledged a
> debt of 700 marks to her husband, Reynold de Grey of Ruthin, "to be
> levied etc. in the county of Leicester." [Reference: Calendar of Close
> Rolls, 1349-1354 (1906), pg. pg. 519]. This debt was surely in
> connection with Eleanor and Reynold's marriage, which no doubt took
> place around the time of this debt, but certainly before 31 Oct. 1353.
> This document has been ignored by Grey researchers who failed to
> connect Reynold de Grey with Thomas de Ferrers.
In Charles Hansen's paper identifying the wife of Jean de Foix, Earl of
Kendal [Genealogists' Magazine vol.22, no 8, pp.373-377 (1988)], he points
to a similar acknowledgment of debt, also enrolled on the Close Rolls, as an
indication of the marriage in 1415 of Sir Edward Burnell (d. 1415) to
Elizabeth de la Pole, daughter of the 2nd Earl of Suffolk.
"Sir Edward Burnell's wife, his second, was named as Elizabeth on 18 June
1415, when the Burnell manors of East and West Ham, co. Essex, were settled
on her.[17] These would be her marriage settlement. Six days earlier, on 12
June, the second Earl of Suffolk had acknowledged that he owed [pounds]800
to Sir Edward Burnell and to a feoffee of Sir Edward's father.[18] This
would have been a surety for payment of Elizabeth's dowry, an amount
appropriate when compared to other dowries of the period."
[17] Exul, "Cases from the Early Chancery Proceedings", the Ancestor 8:174
(1904).
[18] Cal. of Close Rolls 1413-19, p.275; Cal. of Patent Rolls 1416-22,
p.374.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for sharing this information with us. Much appreciated.
In a similar vein, I posted recently on the recognizance recorded
between Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel, and his son-in-law, Henry
de Percy, which transaction evidently involved financial arrangements
relating to Henry's marriage to Earl Richard's daughter, Eleanor.
This record is much like the Ferrers-Grey "debt" and the Burnell-de la
Pole "debt" we find elsewhere in the records.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<almslo$sq3$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
> At some stage I hope to look at the PCC copy of her will. If past experience
> with these Testamenta Vetusta abstracts is anything to go by, there may be
> more information there.
I looked at the will yesterday (PCC 25 Luffenham; PROB11/3, f.194).
There is indeed a lot more in it than is abstracted in Testamenta
Vetusta, including two more people described as Constance's cousins.
Unfortunately nothing springs out to solve her identity, but I've put
a list below of people and places mentioned, in case anyone can find a
clue there.
28 March 1438
Constance lady Lestraunge, by command and licence of my reverend lord
and husband Richard Lestaunge lord of Knokyn and of Mahun.
Body to be buried where husband pleases. Various bequests to the
church of burial, and to husband.
Lord Talbot, my kinsman [dno de Talbot consanguineo mee]
Joyce Lady Typto [Tiptoft], my kinswoman [Jocose dne de Typto
consanguine mee]
The prioress of the house of nuns of Sopewell
Brother Thomas Sutton'
My brothers of the order of friars minor in the city of London
My kinswoman the abbess of Pollesworth [consanguine mee Abbisse de
Pollesworth]
My brothers of the order of Augustine in the city of London
The brothers of the aforesaid order in the town of Salop
Brother Shawe master in theology
My brothers of the order minor [in] the town of Salop
My brothers of the order of Augustine in the same town
Sir John [?]Betton vicar of Oswaldestr' [Oswestry]
Sir Thomas Lye, my kinsman [dno Thome Lye consanguineo meo]
The reverend father in Christ Sir John Kemp, archbishop of York
William [?]Lowe
Eleanor wife of the same William
Denise [dionisie] Swa[nil..?]
Constance daughter of the aforesaid William Lowe. [She seems to be a
goddaughter ("quam de sacro fonte leuaui"); if I understand this
passage correctly her father is to enfeoff her at her marriage in the
lands and tenements which he has by my grant in Buecestre (presumably
Bicester) in he county of Oxford that were formerly of [??]John
[?]Draper.]
Alice ffyth Hugh [bequests include one item the testatrix is noted as
having had of the gift of Katherine Spenser]
Robert husband of the said Alice
John [?]Pury
John Lows
Richard his son
Constance his daughter [another godddaughter ("quam super sacrum
fontem leuaui")] if she lives to be married
John his son
Elizabeth [?]gen'ose for her marriage portion.
Margaret Podenhurst for her marriage portion.
Thomas ffyzt Water
Thomas Stoke
Sir Walter Royton' [a priest]
Sir William Hordley [a priest]
Executors: John Pury and William Lowe
Supervisor: Reverend father and lord in Christ Sir John Kemp,
archbishop of Canterbury
[no witnesses or notice of probate]
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Nice post as usual.
I can identify the abbess of Polesworth who was called kinswoman in
Lady Strange's will. She was Bennet Prede who served as abbess of
Polesworth from at least 1416 until her death in 1465 [References:
Calendar Patent Rolls, 1416-1422 (1911), pp. 3,9; Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1413-1419 (1929), pp. 358-359; Calendar Patent Rolls, 1461-1467
(1897), pp. 415,448). The editor of the Patent and Close Rolls calls
the abbess by the Latin form of her name, Benedicta. Bennet is the
vernacular form.
I have no particulars on the Prede family, nor do I know how this
family might be related to Lady Strange.
Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk (Chris Phillips) wrote in message news:<103b0a3a.02091...@posting.google.com>...
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> I can identify the abbess of Polesworth who was called kinswoman in
> Lady Strange's will. She was Bennet Prede who served as abbess of
> Polesworth from at least 1416 until her death in 1465 [References:
> Calendar Patent Rolls, 1416-1422 (1911), pp. 3,9; Calendar of Close
> Rolls, 1413-1419 (1929), pp. 358-359; Calendar Patent Rolls, 1461-1467
> (1897), pp. 415,448). The editor of the Patent and Close Rolls calls
> the abbess by the Latin form of her name, Benedicta. Bennet is the
> vernacular form.
>
> I have no particulars on the Prede family, nor do I know how this
> family might be related to Lady Strange.
Thank you for that information.
The Victoria County History of Warwickshire calls the abbess Benedicta
Pryde. But unfortunately it looks as though these extra cousins are more
obscure than the ones we already knew of from Testamenta Vetusta.
The problem of the ancestry of Joan/Constance is certainly puzzling. In a
way, the clearest pointer seems to be that her three cousins whose ancestry
we know (her husband, Lady Tiptoft and Lord Talbot) were all descendants of
Edmund, Earl of Arundel (d. 1326).
If this is the root of the consanguinity with her husband, the stated degree
implies that she was a great granddaughter of Edmund. As her father is
stated to be a Lord le Grey, it would perhaps be likely that her mother was
a granddaughter of Edmund.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
I think what we're seeing here is a case of a misstated set of degrees
of consanguinity between Richard le Strange and Constance (alias Joan)
Grey. If they were off by just one degree on one side, which I have
seen occasionally happen in the papal records, then they could well be
related through Richard le Strange's great-grandmother, Maud le
Strange, whose identity is unknown.
I'm content for the time being to assign Constance (alias Joan) as the
daughter of Reynold Grey and his 1st wife, Margaret Roos. If so,
Constance would related to Lord Talbot (called cousin in her will) on
her father's side, and related to Joyce Tiptoft (called cousin in her
will) on her mother's side. It would not, however, make her related
in the 3rd and 3rd degrees to her husband, Richard le Strange.
Interestingly, I note that Reynold Grey had another daughter named
Constance by his 2nd wife, Joan Astley.
As far as what name Richard le Strange's wife regularly used, be it
Constance or Joan, I've seen two accounts of a legal matter involving
a murder in a church in which this couple was involved. In 1417 they
and their followers assaulted and killed John Trussel, Knt., and one
other in the parish church of St. Dunstan's in the East, London. The
records of this matter call her Joan, not Constance. As such, I
assume Lady Strange was known as Joan. The accounts of this matter
may be found in the following two sources:
G.F.Farnham, Quordon Records (1912), pg. 462.
E.F. Jacob, Reg. of Henry Chichele Archbishop of Canterbury 1414-1443
(Canterbury & York Soc., vol. 47) (1947): 169-175.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<am474v$khf$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> As far as what name Richard le Strange's wife regularly used, be it
> Constance or Joan, I've seen two accounts of a legal matter involving
> a murder in a church in which this couple was involved. In 1417 they
> and their followers assaulted and killed John Trussel, Knt., and one
> other in the parish church of St. Dunstan's in the East, London. The
> records of this matter call her Joan, not Constance. As such, I
> assume Lady Strange was known as Joan. The accounts of this matter
> may be found in the following two sources:
>
> G.F.Farnham, Quordon Records (1912), pg. 462.
>
> E.F. Jacob, Reg. of Henry Chichele Archbishop of Canterbury 1414-1443
> (Canterbury & York Soc., vol. 47) (1947): 169-175.
Thanks for that information. It does definitely seem to kill the possibility
of Joan and Constance being two different women, and Joan being the known
daughter (d. Nov 1408) of Robert, Lord Grey of Rotherfield. (That was
already problematic because of the occurrence of Joan alias Constance in
1413.)
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Yes, the records of the Trussel murder seem to rip the bodice out of
Constance (alias Joan) Grey being Joan Grey of Rotherfield. Speaking
of which, the Jacob account of the Trussel murder which I cited is
fascinating. Perhaps someone can post it here on the newsgroup. As
best I understand the Latin, Richard and Joan were not held directly
responsible for the murder, although they were involved in the
altercation which caused it. Even so, Richard and Joan were both
ordered to do penance.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<am53se$em2$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
I wrote:
> I looked at the will yesterday (PCC 25 Luffenham; PROB11/3, f.194).
>
> There is indeed a lot more in it than is abstracted in Testamenta
> Vetusta, including two more people described as Constance's cousins.
> Unfortunately nothing springs out to solve her identity, but I've put
> a list below of people and places mentioned, in case anyone can find a
> clue there.
>
> 28 March 1438
> Constance lady Lestraunge, by command and licence of my reverend lord
> and husband Richard Lestaunge lord of Knokyn and of Mahun.
> William [?]Lowe
> Eleanor wife of the same William
> Constance daughter of the aforesaid William Lowe. [She seems to be a
> goddaughter ("quam de sacro fonte leuaui"); if I understand this
> passage correctly her father is to enfeoff her at her marriage in the
> lands and tenements which he has by my grant in Buecestre (presumably
> Bicester) in he county of Oxford that were formerly of [??]John
> [?]Draper.]
More by luck than judgment, I've discovered the Lowe family mentioned in
Constance's will.
A memorandum of a mainprise under a pain of 100 marks, made 18 February
1418, was enrolled 1 March 1418. The mainpernors were Thomas Straunge of
Warwickshire, John Wele of Derbyshire, esquires, Roger Lowe of Staffordshire
'gentilman' and John Ansty of Cambridgeshire 'gentilman', to have Constance
otherwise Joan wife of Lord Lestraunge before the king in the quinzaine of
Easter, to answer to John Trussell knight for mayhem and breach of the
peace.
[Cal. Close Rolls 1413-19, p.458; obviously this is related to the killing
of John Trussel mentioned by Douglas Richardson]
This Roger Lowe of Staffordshire was clearly connected with the William
Lowe, who had a daughter Constance, mentioned in Constance's will. This is
shown by the account of the manor of Enville in the Victoria County History
of Staffordshire [vol.20, pp.96,97],
which states that Roger Lowe was lord of Enville in 1428, that William Lowe
was lord in 1437-8, and probably still living in 1452, and that Richard
Lowe, probably William's immediate heir, died in or shortly before 1479,
leaving his sisters Constance and Elizabeth as his heirs. Enville had been
granted in 1364 to Thomas Lowe of Whittington, in the parish of Kinver,
Staffs.
It may be a clue to Constance's identity that the Lowes of Whittington were
also linked to the Greys of Ruthin. In the VCH account of Whittington
[vol.20, p.135] it is stated that Humphrey Lowe, son of Edmund (d.1428) was
succeeded in 1447 by his daughter Eleanor, the wife of Robert Grey, a
younger son of Reynold, Lord Grey of Ruthin.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
It appears that Maud (Grey) (Willoughby) (Tuchet) Dabridgecourt
mentioned in my recent post below was actually the daughter of Reynold
de Grey, Knt., 4th Lord Grey of Wilton (died 1370), by his wife, Maud,
daughter of Richard de la Vache, rather than the daughter of his
cousin, Reynold de Grey, Knt., 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin.
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1396-1399 (1927), pp. 198-201, has a series
of documents (bond, indenture, recognizance, etc.) dated circa 9 July
1397, which records are evidently connected with the arrangements for
the marriage of Margaret Grey, daughter of Henry de Grey, 5th Lord
Grey of Wilton, to marry John Darcy, son and heir of Philip Darcy,
Lord Darcy and Menyll. On the Grey side of the parties, Margaret's
mother, Elizabeth "who was the wife of Henry Grey lord of Wilton," is
named, as well as John Daubridgecourt, Knt.
Since it was common in this period for closely related male relatives
to surface in such records, I can only guess that Sir John
Daubridgecourt's appearance in these records is because he was the
uncle by marriage to the prospective bride. If so, then this is a
clear indication that John Daubridgecourt's wife, Maud, was the
daughter of Reynold de Grey, of Wilton, rather than Reynold de Grey,
of Ruthin.
As for the identity of Maud de la Vache, wife of Reynold de Grey of
Wilton, surviving records clearly indicate she was the daughter of
Richard de la Vache, of Vaches (in Aston Clinton) and Vaches (in
Shenley), co. Buckingham and Barton, co. Cambridge, by his wife,
Mabel, daughter and coheiress of Thomas Mansel. Most secondary
sources, however, identify Maud, wife of Reynold, as the daughter of
John Botetourt, which identification is based on a very faulty Grey
pedigree found in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire. I have found
nothing to connect the Grey family with the Botetourt family.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0209...@posting.google.com>...
Peter Sutton
Marvellous - at long last a link between Sir John Dabridgecourt and the
Greys of Wilton - very well done.
As I said in my previous post I felt sure that the only candidate for the
father of Maud Grey was Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton who died in 1370. Maud
Grey must have been born between about 1340 and 1350. Henry, Lord Grey of
Wilton who would have been her brother was born around 1340. Her father
Reynold was born in 1311 and was married about January 1327 so date wise it
fits together. Henry, Lord Grey died shortly before the date of the
documents you quoted from the Close Rolls and it may well be that Sir John
Dabridgecourt appears in these records because he was Uncle, by marriage, to
the bride. Its not proof positive, but I think it is a significant find.
Regarding the wife of Reynold, previously, I just looked at CP Volume VI. I
have now looked at CP volume XIV. On page 356 referring back to Volume VI
p. 176 it says "line 12, delete all detail and replace by 'apparently da. of
Sir Richard DE LA VACHE" and quotes the de Bonis Roll 22 Hen. VI no. 408
which is set out in some detail in note (ca).
Regards
Peter Sutton